shvu

Bless you.

and, Terrific ! Now I have something. The below description is just to give people an idea that two can play this game. If people get mad while reading the below description, it is recommended they stop, read the above material in quotes and then continue. That is the seed. *** All those who wish to progress spiritually will do good to staunchly avoid the so-called Acharyas of the Gaudiya vaishnava line, who with their two-bit scholarship sit in judgement of sadhus of other lines, by calling them so-called sadhus. Q: Why are the others, "so-called" sadhus? A: Because they are not Gaudiyas, period. To continue, good association brings spiritual progress as recommended in many scriptures. Obviously, people who are interested in promoting themselves by putting down others, do not qualify as good association, but come under the category of "bad association" which is the case with the GV Gurus. The simple modus operandi used by tricksters, is as follows, 1. Go to a foreign country, and find a set of people who have no inkling of what Hinduism or Indian history is. 2. Entice them with flowery [but false] descriptions of Hinduism, vedic religion, vedic scriptures(*) and drill in the idea that they are the only true genuine spiritual people in India. The rest are all trash. 3. Give them a comic book version of Indian history. 4. Give them non-existent concepts, such as, service to Krishna, prema, rasa, etc, etc, all conjured out of the hats of the GV Acharyas. There is no danger here, because the foreigners have nothing to compare this with and are in no position to find out if it is true or false. They will swallow it, hook, line and sink. 5. Once again, drill into their heads that GV is the only true interpretation of Sanathana dharma (This point has to be repeated at regular intervals, until it sinks in). And voila ! Another brainwashed individual joins the bandwagon. It is evident that there are plenty of crooks and phoneys, posing as sadhus out there, who are as spiritual as a stone wall. Hence, people who wish to find a genuine spiritual Guru, should use the Gaudiya Gurus as a model for what a Guru should not be. * Hinduism - Gaudiya Vaishnavism + the rest of the false philosophies in India. Vedic religion - GV, of course. (was there any doubt?) Vedic literature - Any literature written by GV Gurus, and some older literature endorsed by the GV Gurus. Cheers

Evidently it is time for someone to knock some sense into the bewildered souls [viz., Bush, Blair, etc] and get them to join iskcon. Then they can, 1. Learn Iskcon's concept of "Vedic literature". 2. Learn the only true interpretation of Sanathana dharma and also how some other interpretations were right only for a certain time and circumstance, but are no longer valid now [16th century onwards]. 3. How classic Indian literature, magically got in new verses, overnight during the 16th century and also learn about the unique concept of "hidden" avatars. About lost and found [also found & lost] shastras. About how "dark form" actually means "golden form" and how "golden form" means chaitanya and so on. 4. About great Indian Thakurs [pure devotees with perfect senses], who were capable of travelling back in time and seeing other people's dreams. 5. How the Indian tradition Mayavada [excuse me for using the M word] is poison and how the founder was an insane person who was actually an incarnation who came down to mislead people. A classic example of an insane incarnation. 6. How all the Indian Gurus who have come to the US thus far are all rascals, except for one "pure devotee" who was authorized by Krishna himself. 7. Read BG 2.0 [aka BG as it is], the modern, modified version of the original BG 1.0 (by Vyasa). The problem with 1.0 is, it is outdated and does not tell some important things that modern people ought to know. To fix this problem, one empowered soul came out with BG 2.0, which supplies all the "missing" information. After enlightened by the above knowledge, their avidya will be destroyed and following this, they will be all set to return to Godhead. They will have to do one more thing, however, and that is to abolish cow slaughter, which is a big crime. However slaughter of other types of animals doesn't matter and can continue as before [don't ask why]. Cheers

I was not aware of this. All glories to the great Mahajana, who made this prophecy. I left out one important thing to be learnt from iskcon in the above list. 8. They can learn about the stupid, pea-brained scientists who try to explain things by logic and reason, the materialistic rascals with their "imperfect senses". Since the above combo [bush et al.,] are people who can actually do something about it, they can ban all science related activites in their countries and go back to an Indian life style of say, 0 AD. People can live with oil lamps, clay pots and depend on rain for agriculture. If it does not rain, they can starve for days and think with pleasure and pride about the "sensible" decision they made by giving up "material" science. That would be the way to go ! Hare Krishna [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 10-17-2001).]

If Bush and Blair ever took the time to read the Bhagavatam, they would be rolling on the floors with laughter at the tortoise incarnation, pig incarnation, etc. With due respect, such ideas of karma, surrender to vAsudeva, etc come out of superficial understanding of hindu literature. This in turn is a consequence of publishing books and making them available to all, without discrimination. People read these books like they would read a story book and conclude, they have understood everything and then proceed to spout absurd ideas, which even, prima facie, fail to stand the test of logic. But I guess, this is unavoidable, with Indian religious organizations wanting to go global, and trying to gather as many people as possible. We will only see more and more of this in future.

They don't have to. They have their own religion and they are happy enough with it. It is only when people are not happy with what they have, that they begin to look elsewhere. Bin laden is following his religion and is out to kill the infidels. Bush et al., are following their religion and are out to destroy the evil doers. So everyone is doing what they think is the right thing to do. Bin Laden is calling Bush as evil and as the leader of infidels. Bush is calling bin laden as the evil doer. So everything is fine. Cheers [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 10-17-2001).]

(a) Where are you in your search thus far? Can anyone know this? There is no standard, that can be used to measure "spiritual progress". There is no laid out method, where a specific period of sadhana of a specific intensity performed by a seeker of specific maturity will fetch a specific result. Someone may be inches away from it and not know it, just like someone else may be miles away and yet think he is so close. It is all speculation and nothing else. The truth is, there is no way of knowing how far you have progressed. (b) What experiences have you had and to what method do you ascribe for it? If I sound cynical, that is because I am. How does x, y and z's experiences help you? Are you looking for stories, that will pump new enthusiasm, into you? The truth is, you have no way of knowing if anyone is telling the truth when they claim to have had spiritual experiences. There are many people out there who are out to kid others or are kidding themselves, thinking they have found something terrific. Even if there is any McCoy among them, the exercise of separating the wheat from the chaff is near impossible. This whole Guru business runs on sentiments and not on logic. The Guru is genuine if he conforms to our image of the ideal Guru, else he is a fake. This is the kind of "superior" logic involved here, although, of course, people will not admit it. Briefly, do not concern yourself with the experiences of others, for it is a useless exercise. You cannot hope to copy others and try to find what they claim to have found. There has been only one Buddha for 2600 years. No one could copy him, although you can be sure, many tried. Similarly there has been only one Jesus and one Ramana and so on. And remember, none of these people copied someone else. I think, you get the message. Cheers

On a lighter vein, Any gaudiya vaishnava. The converse is true too. This reminds me of a list of definitions I had found on another list a long time back by a like minded person. Here they are, ////////////////////////////////////// >avatar (avatara) Any avatara of Vishnu=krishna. Any other avataara was sent by Vishnu to mislead people (especially people like me). >Bhagavat Purana THE saatvic puraana. Any other puraana is saatvic when it praises Vishnu, or someone introduced spurious verses into them once in a while showing that Vishnu worshiped Shiva. Shiva puraana is ofcourse for hedonists who will rot later in the planet of the faithless. >Bhagavad Gita The song divine. The one and only interpretation to consult is ISKCON's. No one else knows anything. Infact, scholars have come across a new copy of the Paadma puraana which has a verse showing the superiority of ISKCON's Gita translation to all other translations. >bhaki I presume you want to know about bhakthi. bhakthi=worship of Krishna. Worshiping any other demigods will make grass sprout from your ears. >Brahman =krishna ofcourse. Any verses from anywhere telling something like rudra=brahman must be dismissed. This will then make everything thoroughly consistent. There is no logic in this procedure, but people who point this out are indulging in chest beating. So don't you dare do any such thing. >karma There are two types, good and bad Karmas. Good karma=agreeing with ISKCON. Any thing else is baaaad karma. >maya A concept introduced by Advaitins. The fallacy of this system is ofcourse well known. Hence, intelligent people don't spend too much time listening to Advaita. >Prabhpada A person who provides imaginative translations of Hindu scriptures. >Ramakrishna A deluded person. >Vaishnavite (Vaishnava, Vaishnavism) THE true religion. Dismissing verses in scriptures which don't say that Vaishnavism is THE religion, makes Vaishnavism the pinnacle of logical achievement and consistency. >Vedanta Society An abominable society which actually dares to spout views which ISKCON doesn't agree with. Founded by a hedonist. >Vivekananda A hedonist who was half maayaavadi and half shuunya vaadi. He ate meat (gasp). Founded the Vedanta society. Present location - planet of the faithless. ///////////////////////////////////////// Cheers

oh...those mayavadins ! I heeded the warning and didn't browse that web site. If I did, I would have to jump into the nearest river to purify myself, and since it is getting cold here in detroit, I certainly don't wish to jump into any river at this time. It would be very unpleasant. Thanx for the heads up. Cheers [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 10-15-2001).]

There are plenty of translations available. One translation by Swami Tapasyananda is available for sale online, at http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org It comes in 4 volumes. Althought it is not 100% perfect, it is not bad. Cheers [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 10-13-2001).]

Excuse my stupidity, chaitanya. Please allow me to spoon feed you. http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/Books/Elist.asp?ProductType=MA1201 If you are not familiar with navigating web pages, do let me know and I would be glad show you how. It is a very handy feature. Just like everything else, the Americans copied this feature from the Indians too . Cheers

How about Ramana? No Guru, no sadhana, no background and yet it happened to him. If you accept him as a realized soul, that is. Cheers

This certainly is an unpleasant story, if it really happened this way. I cannot imagine any parents giving up their child for such a silly sounding reason. If the many, many starving people in India come to know about this policy of tirupathi, they can go jump into the donations bag and then the Tirupathi folks have to feed them ! Considering that their collections are the second highest in the world, this should be no problem to them.

? In a dancing contest, I do believe both Chaitanya & Prabhupada would find it hard to keep up with Michael Jackson. Disclaimer: No sarcasm here, this is my frank opinion. Just to show, anyone can say anything and there usually is no logic behind such statements. Cheers

From the translation I have, /////////////////// 2.1.36 : upapadyate chApyupalabhyate cha And (that the world is without a beginning) is reasonable and is also seen ( from the scriptures) /////////////////// 2.1.37: sarvadharmopapatteshcha And because all attributes (required for the creation of the world) are possible (only in Brahman, it is the cause of the world) This sUtra answers the objection that because Brahman is attributeless, it cannot be the material cause of the world. /////////////////// Interestingly, 2.1.34 says, vaishhamyanairghriNye na sApekshatvAt tathA hi darshayati vaishhamyanairghriNye na (No Partiality & cruelty) Partiality and cruelty cannot (be attributed to Brahman) on account of it's taking into consideration (other reasons in that matter) because (the scriptures) declares (it to be) so. Shankara explains the Supreme is neither partial nor cruel and quotes BrihadAranyaka 3.2.13. Cheers [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 10-12-2001).]

I have Shankara's Bhasya, where 2.1.37 is about refuting objections raised by other schools against Brahman being the first cause. Cheers

api chetsudurAchAro bhajate mAmananyabhAk | sAdhureva sa mantavyaha samyagvyavasito hi saha || 9.30 || Even if a man of very bad conduct worships Me with one-pointed devotion, he is to be considered verily good; for he has resolved rightly. The meaning here, in my opinion is the person is has resolved righteously, by turning towards devotion, giving up his evil tendencies. It does not mean that he is a devotee who continues to performs evil acts in parallel. The next verse confirms this, kshipram bhavati dharmAtmA shashvachchAntin nigachchhati | kaunteya pratijAnIhi na me bhaktaha praNashyati || 9.31 || He soon becomes possessed of a virtuous mind; he attains everlasting peace. Do proclaim boldly, O son of Kunti, that My devotee does not get ruined. Thus a devotee does not lack virtue and does not have evil tendencies. The idea is, devotion is available to a wicked person just as it is available to anyone else. Cheers [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 10-11-2001).]

If such a thing really happened. There are many people (including myself), who do not believe in Jesus as the son of God or his "miracles". Jesus is true and bonafide only to those who choose to believe in him. There is no rationale behind such choices. It is faith in the book; faith that the the people who wrote the book, were writing the truth and were not exagerrating. The reality is, we will never know if they wrote the truth or not. There is no way of knowing if Jesus magically turned water into wine or if Krishna magically produced a saree of infinite length. That is the idea. Cheers

This question can be extended to cover all Gurus and prophets. How does anyone know if anyone is genuine and bonafide or is simply an ordinary guy? There is no way of knowing. We connect with some people and we like to think they are genuine. That's as far as anyone can go. Cheers

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/hpi/2001/10/1.html#1

I have read and reread the Bhagavatam and have read no such thing. But since you are stating so, can you provide a verse number? Thanx in advance.

This verse was discussed on this forum in the past. "appears in a golden form" and "descends alongwith" are both not present in the verse. It says "krsna varnam" which means dark colored. The chapter is about how the supreme person is worshipped in different Yugas. This verse says how the Supreme will be worshipped in the Kali-yuga. It describes the form in which he will be worshipped and the method [chanting, etc] of worship. I just thought it was important, I point this out again, as it is relevant to this thread. Cheers

The main sources, for the life story of Krishna are the Mahabharata [plus Harivamsha], Vishnu Purana and the Bhagavatam. All these sources were existent by 1000 AD. Every other source is dubious, especially when it talks about events/people who are not to be found in any of the 3 old sources. Radha [the soul of Krishna] is not mentioned in any of these three sources, which clearly shows there was no person named Radha in the life of Krishna. She is the figment of someone's imagination. But interestingly, the fact that she is not mentioned once, in any of these sources, is not important to some people! However, to see Radha as the potency of Krishna, etc is fine. That is representation [uma, shakti, kali, etc]and different people wish to see the Supreme in different ways. btw, to the best of my knowledge, the brahma-vaivarta Purana is the only Purana out of the main 18, which talks about Radha. The authenticity of any verse from any other Purana, which talks about Radha, is dubious. Cheers

This is how the list of evidences was concluded. "Sri Chaitanya's incarnation was a hidden incarnation, thus He buried references to His appearance deep within the ocean of vedic texts. His desire was that His disguise would not be betrayed, so He made sure these references would remain hidden until after His incarnation was complete. These text's were always present, but by the inconceivable yoga-maya of the Lord, He covered His true identity even from the Vedic scholars and panditas. Only the pure devotees understood His actual identity." Then one morning, people woke up and to their astonishment, there were a number of references to the divinity of chaitanya, which had "magically" appeared in the Atharvana Veda, Shvetashvatara, Mundaka, and many other sources. But then, who can understand the divine play of the Lord? Cheers

This, I don't understand. Many scholars including Basham, are of the opinion that Shankara was the greatest philosopher in India. I wonder how they arrived at this conclusion. For example, Madhva was a terrific scholar himself, and managed to reinterpret everything in a different way. Even straightforward Advaitic statements like "aham brahmAsmi" and "tattvamasi" were interpreted by him differently. That is a marvellous feat, no less. Not to mention many other philosophers who have come from India. As a fan of Shankara myself, it is very nice to see him being recognized as the greatest of them all, but I fail to see how people arrived at this idea. Cheers