Guruvani

people like you just come to this forum to ridicule and criticise. you aren't interested to contribute to the discussion apart from from crass, crude remarks meant for insulting others. why don't you crawl back to your baby crib and suck on the bottle of empiric knowledge?

Narayana Maharaja is fine in his own space. He doesn't need to be interfering with ISKCON or the disciples of Srila Prabhupada or their faith in what Srila Prabhupada has done. Problem is he has stuck his nose into ISKCON business, criticised Srila Prabhupada and offended many Vaishnavas. Well, he was dragged into it, but he should not have allowed that. He allowed himself to get sucked into ISKCON business and he should have known better. That is not the symptom of an advanced devotee. I guess if Narayana Maharaja offends thousands of disciples of Srila Prabhupada it should just be overlooked?

Actually, Charlie, you are the one living in denial and beating the same old mundane drum of empiric approach to understanding the universe. it must be awfully dry and miserable on the planet you live on.

Translation: He is not a groupie of Narayana Maharaja.

you are a fool. you should stay away from the Bhagavatam. It will simply become a monster that devours you.

you are obviously a gross sensualist with a very diseased mentality. you have no right to touch the Bhagavatam just leave it alone or you will hasten your own destruction with such evil materialistic thinking of the Bhagavatam

ok, stick your pathetic sense perception. you are obviously engrossed in the bodily concept of life.

A book on religion? Where did the acharyas ever say that? Mahaprabhu said the Bhagavatam is spotless. It is perfect. There is not one mistake in it's description of the universal arrangement. Do you think that the greatest yogic masters and mystic sages of the Vedic age used simple, linear, mundane calculations in presenting the structure of the universe? I don't think so. I think you have to be quite the smug fool to assume that the Vedic rishis used any form of gross perception to understand and describe the nature of the universe. The Bhagavatam is not a book of "religion". What is the Bhagavatam about? The reciters of Srimad-Bhagavatam have utilized three methods to explain these ten subjects, namely by Vedic reference (shrutena), by direct explanation (arthena), and by summary explanations given by the great sages (anjasa). The following is a brief explanation of each of these ten subjects. 1) Sarga - the elemental creation Sarga is defined as follows: bhuta-matrendriya-dhiyam janma sarga udahritah "The elemental creation of sixteen principles of matter - namely the five gross elements (pancha-bhutas), the five objects of sense perception (tan-matras), the five knowledge acquiring senses (jnanendriyas) and the mind - is known as sarga." The five gross elements (pancha-bhutas) are earth, water, fire, air and ether; the five objects of sensual perception (tan-matras) are sound, form, taste, smell, and touch; and the five knowledge acquiring senses (jnanendriyas) are the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and skin. Together with the mind, these sixteen principles are created by the first purusha incarnation, Maha-Vishnu. Within these sixteen principles eight other principles exist subtly, making there a total of twenty-four principles of material existence. 2) Visarga - the secondary creation Visarga is defined as follows: brahmano guna-vaishamyad visargah paurushah smritah "The secondary creation by Brahma carried out through the interaction of the three modes of nature is known as visarga." By manipulating the sixteen original principles of material existence and by the interaction of the three modes of material nature (sattva, rajas and tamas), Lord Brahma carries out a subsequent creation, more properly described as an assembling of universal ingredients. 3) Sthanam - the planetary systems Sthanam is defined as follows: sthitir vaikuntha-vijayah "The true situation (sthanam) is the realm of Vaikuntha." The entire creation by the Lord is to enable the conditioned souls to satisfy their material desire to lord over the material energy. As such, according to their desires, the Lord creates a suitable situation (sthanam) for them to dwell in. Within the universe, these situations can be divided into fourteen main categories, known technically as bhuvanas, or planetary systems, and 8,400,000 sub-categories, commonly known as species of life. From the topmost sthanam of Brahma-loka (the abode of Lord Brahma) down to the lowest sthanam of Patala-loka, all situations are destructible. In every situation the conditioned living entity is conquered by birth and death. Only by attaining to our eternal constitutional situation in the spiritual realm of Vaikuntha can we conquer the birth and death of this material world. Thus the true sthanam of the living entity is the realm of Vaikuntha. All other temporary situations within this material world cause one to become a victim of material suffering, simply shifting from one situation to the next. 4) Poshanam - protection by the Lord Poshanam is defined as follows: poshanam tad anugrahah "Protection (poshanam) is the causeless mercy of the Lord." Poshanam can be defined in two ways according to the mentality of the living entity. For the conditioned souls, poshanam refers to material maintenance. It is the Lord who fulfills the desires of all living entities: nityo nityanam chetanash chetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman "The supreme eternal among all eternals, the supremely conscious among all the conscious living entities - it is that supreme one among the many who fulfills the desires of all." For the devotees of the Lord, poshanam refers to the Lord's causeless mercy and protection. Protection from hunger is the lowest form of protection, which the Lord offers to the conditioned living entities. For the devotees, the Lord's protection is protection from the illusion of maya. The Lord gives the devotee the strength to always remember Him and engage in His devotional service. 5) Utayah - the creative impetus Utayah is defined as follows: utayah karma-vasanah "The impetus for activity (utayah) is the desire for fruitive work." The conditioned soul forgets that the Lord is his eternal protector and maintainer, and thus an impetus for fruitive activity is manifested for one's self maintenance. This desire for fruitive activity is the driving force behind all work within this material world. The karma-vasanas are the accumulated residue of one's previous activities. Every material activity we perform creates a residual impression within our consciousness, which is carried with us life after life. The sum total of these impressions form our creative impetus to work. The true impetus of the living entity should be to go back to Godhead, to the supreme abode of Vaikuntha, and activities performed in that direction form the right path of work. 6) Manvantara - the change of Manus Manvantara is defined as follows: manvantarani sad-dharma "The reign of the Manus (manvantaras) are for establishing the eternal religious principles." Manu is the father of mankind, the progenitor, empowered to guide the human race towards self-realization. Manu provides revealed scriptures to mankind which regulate their activities in a manner that will be for their eternal welfare. When the living entities accept such a regulated path, the Lord provides them with all protection by which they may attain their constitutional situation in Vaikuntha. Thus the desire to go back to Godhead and regulated activities performed to achieve that goal form the proper path of action. 7) Isha-anukatha - the science of God Isha-anukatha is defined as follows: avataranucharitam haresh chasyanuvartinam pumsam isha-kathah prokta nanakhyanopabrimhitah "The science of God (isha-anukatha) describes the incarnations of the Personality of Godhead and His different activities together with the activities of His great devotees." The entire material creation is for the ultimate purpose of the living entities' salvation. When the conditioned living entities utilize the creation for secondary purposes, such as material fruitive activity, the Lord incarnates to reclaim these forgetful souls. The Lord directly delivers living entities by His divine appearance as well as by its recorded history. The Supreme Lord is so potent that simply by hearing about His transcendental activities in His various incarnations one becomes free from material bondage. Thus the topics of the Lord and His devotees, which constitute the science of God, should be given respectful aural reception. 8) Nirodha - the dissolution Nirodha is defined as follows: nirodho 'syanushayanam atmanah saha shaktibhih "The merging of the living entity, along with his conditioned living tendency, with the mystic lying down of the Maha-Vishnu is called the winding up of the cosmic manifestation, or nirodha." As we have briefly mentioned before, the entire material creation offers two facilities to the conditioned living entities. The living entities may either utilize it to fulfill their desire to lord it over material nature, or they may utilize it to go back to Godhead, the spiritual abode of Vaikuntha. For the living entities who take advantage of the science of God as propagated by the Manus, and who develop a desire to act in such a regulated manner, the Lord provides them full protection from the material energy and resituates them in their proper situation in Vaikuntha. For the other living entities, who choose to disregard the science of God, the Lord gives them an interim period of relief at the time of dissolution. This temporary period of relief is technically called nirodha, or the winding up of the cosmic manifestation. All the living entities along with their conditional tendencies (vasanas) merge into the body of Maha-Vishnu to await another creation and another opportunity to take up the science of God. Though the physical bodies are given up at this time, the subtle bodies (sukshma-sariras) remain with the living entities along with their latent desires. This is indicated by the words atmanah saha shaktibhih. 9) Mukti - liberation Mukti is defined as follows: muktir hitvanyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih "Liberation (mukti) is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies." Those living entities who develop a desire to act for their ultimate welfare regulate their life according to the instructions of the Manus. Such living entities receive the mercy and protection of the Lord in the form of His divine activities and incarnations, either personally or in its literary form as the science of God. By hearing the narrations of the Lord's activities these living entities are able to give up all external identification with the principles of material existence and its interaction. Such purified living entities develop their original spiritual bodies and are resituated in their constitutional position in Vaikuntha, the spiritual abode of the Lord. This is technically known as mukti or liberation. The words hitvanyatha rupam indicate that these living entities have become completely free from all material coverings including the sukshma-sarira and related vasanas. The word vyavasthitih indicates the real and eternal sthanam of the living entity - sthitir vaikuntha vijayah. 10) Ashraya - the supreme shelter Ashraya is defined in the following three verses: abhasash ca nirodhash ca yato 'sty adhyavasiyate sa ashrayah param brahma paramatmeti shabdyate "The supreme one who is celebrated as the Supreme Being or the Supreme Soul is the supreme source of the cosmic manifestation as well as its reservoir and winding up. Thus He is the supreme shelter, the Absolute Truth." yo 'dhyatmiko 'yam purushah so 'sav evadhidaivikah yas tatrobhaya-vicchedah purusho hy adhibhautikah ekam ekatarabhave yada nopalabhamahe tritayam tatra yo veda sa atma svashrayashrayah "The individual person possessing different instruments of senses is called the adhyatmic person, and the individual controlling deity of the senses is called adhidaivic. The embodiment seen on the eyeballs is called the adhibhautic person. All three of the above mentioned stages of different living entities are interdependent. In the absence of one, another is not understood. But the Supreme Being who sees every one of them as the shelter of the shelter is independent of all, and therefore He is the supreme shelter." The Srimad Bhagavata Purana begins with the Vedanta statement "janmady asya yatah" to bring to our attention the supreme source and shelter of all existence - the ashraya-tattva. In order to explain the transcendence of the ashraya the other nine subjects have been explained. In all of existence there are factually only two divisions, namely the dependent (para-tantra) and the independent (sva-tantra). The independent (svarat) refers only to that Supreme Lord invoked in the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam by the words "om namo bhagavate vasudevaya". Sri Vyasa Muni begins by first offering his obeisances to Bhagavan Sri Krishna (Vasudeva) and then identifies Him as the absolute and independent shelter of everything - janmadyasya yatah svarat satyam param dhimahi. The transcendental Sri Krishna is that tenth subject of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and in order to properly describe Him, Sri Vyasa Muni has explained the other nine subject matters. Studied together, these ten subject matters fully establish the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavan Sri Krishna, as the transcendental Absolute Truth. The Vedanta Sutras begin by instructing us to inquire into the nature of the Absolute Truth - athato brahma jijnasa. This Srimad-Bhagavatam is the perfect companion to that inquiry, as it is the natural commentary to the Vedanta Sutras. Both the Vedanta Sutras and the Srimad-Bhagavatam begin from the point of understanding the ultimate source of everything. Sri Vyasa Muni, the author of these two texts, begins both with the same verse: janmady asya yatah, "From whom everything emanates." But in the Srimad Bhagavatam he expands and elaborates on this very important philosophical subject in great detail: janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah svarat tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye muhyanti yat surayah tejo-vari-mrdam yatha vinimayo yatra tri-sargo 'mrsa dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi "I meditate upon Lord Sri Krishna because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of creation, sustenance and destruction on the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmaji, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Sri Krishna, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth." Thus Srimad-Bhagavatam is the key to unlock the secrets of the Vedanta Sutras. There is no literature in the world as great as this Srimad Bhagavata Purana. The transcendental narrations within it give us light in this dark age of Kali yuga: krishne sva-dhamopagate dharma-jnanadibhih saha kalau nashta-drisham esha puranarko 'dhunoditah "This Bhagavata Purana is as brilliant as the sun, and it has arisen just after the departure of Lord Krishna to His own abode, accompanied by religion, knowledge, etc. Persons who have lost their vision due to the dense darkness of ignorance in the age of Kali shall get light from this Purana."

In this image below we can see that actually "Jupiter" is much larger in terms of it's subtle form than we see with the gross sense. The magnetosphere of Jupiter extends for millions of miles beyond the gross layer. Even more subtle than the magnetosphere is even more subtle aspects of the planet Jupiter, as with all planets. So, the rishis understand the most subtle and fundamental energies of the universe. Thus, they calculate the universe according to a whole different perception of time and space.

It is an important topic for the fact that Srimad Bhagavatan has suffered from a lot of skepticism and criticism even from within the Krishna consciousness community over the fact that it describes the Moon as being futher than the Sun. I think if we can find a way to think of this conception as being correct from a particular understanding of the mystical nature of the universal creation that the Bhagavatam can be spared this kind of criticism and spare the devotees the offense. I am not satisfied to go through my whole life thinking that the Bhagavatam espouses erroneous astronomical information. I prefer to search and search until I find a proper explanation of what the distances and dimensions of planets are actually calculated by other than simple linear mundane measurements. Obviously, the Vedic rishis did not use simple, linear mundane measurements when they described the different levels of planetary existence. They did not use mathematics, geometry or calculus. They estimated the universe in term of levels of thought, intelligence and consciousness. They see the universe in terms of planes of existence, not in terms of linear distances between gross forms of matter. So, maybe to you this topic is useless or worse than useless but there are some of us who need a logical explanation that can establish that the Bhagavatam is NOT an archaic, primitive book filled with superstitious misconceptions about the structure of the solar system. I think I have found my answer. I have faith the Bhagavatam is the most advanced spiritual understanding of the universe that mankind has ever known. I can't rest until I can penetrate the superficial and erroneous understanding that the Bhagavatam is an old book of superstitions that have been debunked by modern science. Well, maybe that is good enough for you pal, but it is not good enough for me and I will continue to study the Bhagavatam with faith that there is a good and logical explanation behind the calculations of distances between planets based on another form of calculation aside from the simple, mundane linear perception of scientists. The Bhagavatam deals with the most sublime and fundamental nature of existence. It's methods and measurements aren't based upon crude scientific principles of empiric observation. The whole of the Bhagavatam is KRISHNA. All of it, not just the parts that we pick and choose to accept. So, the problem is not with the Bhagavatam, The problem is with our dull, blunt empiric approach to understanding the mysteries of the universe. I am determined to reach beyond this dull, blunt, pathetic mundane scientific understanding of the universe and understand the mystical nature of the universe that eludes our dull, sickly and crude material senses.

in other words you are just sentimentalist and you don't know Shaiva siddhanta and the proper doctrines of Shaivism - the relationship, the means to the end or the ultimate perfection of Shiva Bhakti.

then please tell us what is the sambhanda jnana, abhideya and prayojan tattva of Siva Bhakti? I have always wanted to know what is that in the Shaivism. Siva Bhakti must contain these three aspects or it has no siddhanta. So, please explain to us what is this all about in Shaivism.

So you are saying that in one place the Vedas say that Narayana or Krishna is supreme and somewhere says something different? No, the Vedas aren't like that. The Vedas are consistent. They don't contradict themselves. They all agree on the same thing that Narayana/Krishna is supreme and the creator of Siva, Brahma and all the devatas. In Jnana-kanda Siva is supreme. In karma-kanda Brahma or Lord Indra is supreme. In Upasana-kanda Lord Vishnu is supreme. Upasana means the closet and purest knowledge. Upanisad means "to come closer". The closest to God is Upasana-kanda - Vishnu bhakti.

The disciples of Mahaprabhu studied all the Vedas and extracted the essence of the Vedas and added many Vedic verses in the commentaries and books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Gopal Bhatta Goswami, Sanatan Goswami and many other followers of Sri Caitanya studied the Vedas and took the essential verses that establish the supreme absolute truth. there are many quotes and Vedic verses in the Gaudiya shastra. the followers of Mahaprabhu studied all the Vedas.

In the five years I have been around this forum I haven't seen a topic yet that stayed on topic. I started this topic with the subject of the Moon and Sun distances. So, how you can say it is all off topic is quite amuzing and quite untrue. the issuse of thinking about the Bhagavatam's mystical aspect as opposed to trying to balance everything against scientific, empiric knowledge is very much a part of the subject of devotional service uncontaminated by reason and material scientific conceptions. at least I think it is......................

The mystical aspect of the Sun vs. Moon distance dilemma is very elusive. When the shastra refers to the "MOON" it is referring to that level of existence where the life forms are not made of Earthly ingrediants but of concentrated reflected Sunlight like the light that is coming from the Moon. Candraloka is the plane of existence where lifeforms have bodies made of concentrated reflected Sunlight, not of Earthly ingrediants. That is Candraloka. The realm of reflected Sunlight as opposed to Earth, water, fire, air etc. The Bhagavat doesn't deal with a gross conception of the universe. It deals with the most subtle and fundamental aspect of energy that is supplied and sustained by the Sun - Surya Narayana. So, Candraloka, the realm of reflected Sunlight lifeforms, is beyond the Sun in relative distance. It is higher and more sublime than the Sun planet itself. The distances of the Bhagavat are calculated in terms of vibratory light energy and planes of existence, not in terms of gross forms and globes visible to the naked eye. The universe is all personal. All the planets are persons. They are NOT simply gross forms that are visible to the naked eye. Obviously, the great rishis described the universe in terms of some higher vision than the vision of Earthings looking through glass lenses with their naked eyes.

Not at all that is your ignorance. The Vedas and the Upanisads were around long before there was Gaudiya Vaishnavism. The Vedas and the Upanishads pronounce Krishna and Narayana as supreme. These Vedas are more original than your Siva Samhita that was tampered with by rishi Romaharsana Suta. It is not Gaudiya only. It is Vedic.

Even magicians like Chris Angel can make elephants disappear, get run over by a 10 ton roller and float above the tallest building in Los Vegas. How much more are we under the mystical spell of Lord Indra? Common people cannot understand how Chris Angel can do magic tricks of illusions that no magician has ever performed. How much more are Earthlings under the magic illusions of the great devatas who are the Lords of this universe?

Obviously, Sukadeva was beyond the mystic illusions of Lord Indra and he perceived the universe differently than tiny Earth scientists with their telescopes staring into a gross superficial aspect of the universe. Just like worms in the colon of a person, we can't understand the personal feature and personal nature of the universe. Worms in the bowels of illusion can never understand the mystic nature of this universe. There is a mystical aspect of this universe that we cannot understand with our blunt conditioned senses.

As evidenced in the verse, there is a mystical element to the universe. Lord Indra is here saying that he uses his mystic powers against anyone who attempt to attain the Moon through mystic powers or mechanical space crafts. When we are dealing with the mystic powers of one of the most powerful devatas in the universe, we are obviously at a disadvantage. The mystic powers of Lord Indra are beyond our scientific abilities here on Earth. Needless to say, Earth scientists will never defeat the mystic illusions of Lord Indra.

actually I am going to ignore you because you post anonymously and don't present any shastra praman to validate your statements. get real or get lost. you are just a ghost haunting the topic at this point.

Here again the rishis and Acharya Vijayatirtha conclude that the Moon is further than the Sun and twice as big. Srila Prabhupada didn't manufacture the idea.

I don't have time to play your games. You aren't saying anything useful to defeat my arguments. You are just talking silly like a little girl.

This means that Vyasadeva and Sukadeva and Suta Goswami all taught that the Moon is further than the Sun. So, go ahead and "slam" the rishis.

your hearsay opinions are not admissable as evidence in a discussion based on shastra and the Vedas. if you can't support your claims with proper Sanskrit verses from shastra, then your claims means NOTHING.