Guruvani

well, I don't know that any fallen ISKCON guru ever preached anything against the Bhagavad-gita. we might want to remember this verse too.. As Sridhar Maharaja pointed out, that unless and until you learn forgiveness, you yourself are not a saintly person. So, if you can't forgive a guru who falls, then you are not a saintly person. It is also an offense to offend a fallen devotee, because actually in his heart he is really a devotee of Krishna. Even Bhavananda has come back to ISKCON to face all the shame and disgrace because being near the devotees was important to him than staying away and avoiding his shame. Forgiveness.............. it is not an option..... it is mandatory. otherwise, you can never become a saintly person.

Sridhara Maharaja said that if your guru falls down that you should wait some time to see if he rectifies himself. If the guru was sincere when he gave diksha then Krishna will never let a sincere devotee go without blessings. Krishna can make up for the shortcomings of a lesser diksha guru by sending you the good siksha guru to give you the fuller support or deeper understanding. So, if the guru falls, then wait some time and see if maybe he comes back to the proper devotional life. That was the instruction of Sridhar Maharaja. He never said that one was cheated if he had a lower guru, because he explained that the siksha guru could fill in what was missing.

that is very good. please show us the original Sanskrit verses of Devi Bhagavatam that gives us that information and please tell us which authorised acharya has translated that Sanskrit text for English speaking people to read. we are glad to hear that. but we need authentic translation from siddha guru who is Sanskrit scholar and authorised by Siva sampradaya to translate. we are eager to hear your response.

well, I see your point. But, Srila Saraswati Thakur had nothing to go on when he made his remarks except the bigotry of Christian missionaries in India that were having some success in distracting Indians from Sanatan Dharma and preaching Christian bigotry that was interfering with the Vaishnava preachers.

then maybe you should be a Krishna devotee and not a "temple devotee". I know all about it. I got tossed out of an ISKCON temple in 1981 because I was listening to tapes of Sridhar Maharaja privately with headphones. For me, the truth has always been more important than compromise for the sake of getting along with ISKCON authorities. I will take the truth over shelter and food any day of the week. I have never compromised with the truth, even though it has caused me many difficulties in life.

Srila Prabhupada never referred to ISKCON as a church and ISKCON didn't even exist when Srila Saraswati Thakur wrote his statements. ISKCON is NOT A CHURCH. Show me one time that Srila Prabhupada ever referred to ISKCON as a church. I don't care what these insane GBC people have said about ISKCON. Their words are worse than useless. ISKCON is an association of devotees. It is not a church. Church is a Christian term and there are no deities in a Church. ISKCON is temples and ashrams. If Srila Saraswati Thakur was talking about an ashram or a temple he would have used the proper terms. He said "church" and he was talking about churches and not about ashrams and temples. only a fool would say that Saraswati Thakur was criticizing the Vaishnava ashrams and temples.

Well, if you really look at the situation honestly, I would have to admit that it appears that in fact this whole Jesus idea and the Christian church is preventing more people from getting the mercy of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement than any other force in the western world. JESUS is keeping many people away from Krishna. The Christian church is keeping many people away from Krishna. Like Srila Prabhupada said : we cannot change these people, they are just fanatics and dogmatists. At this point in human society, it appears that Jesus has become more a part of the problem than a part of the solution. Jesus or Krishna? There is only a small handful of people on the planet that think they can have both. You are one of the very few devotees I have ever known that had any concern about Jesus. You Jesus people are loud on the forum, but I lived in ISKCON for years and Jesus freaks like you didn't exist in Srila Prabhuapda's ISKCON. You people exist on the very fringes of Srila Prabhupada's movement - not in the center.

This is one of the most abused and misunderstood statements I have ever seen. When Srila Saraswati Thakur said "CHURCH" he was obviously talking about the Christian church. SINCE WHEN IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAUDIYA SAMPRADAYA HAS A MATHA OR VAISHNAVA INSTITUTION BEEN CALLED A CHURCH? CHURCH refers to the Christian bigots not to ISKCON or some Vaishnava institution. There is not and never was any CHURCH of Vaishnavas and I wish people would quit abusing this quote to try and demean the institutions established by Vaishnava acharyas.

so, I guess we all might as well throw away our bead bags, take down the deities and give up on Krishna consciousness because we don't have a pure devotee in our neighborhood to go loiter around. JEEZ...... these absolute dictums have just neutralized the whole Sankirtan movement and relegated it to the dust bin. Really, is it all or nothing? Then why have so many people that have loitered around these sadhus for years blooped and went back to jobs and women? I haven't see no magic from the sadhu loiterer cult. The aren't more special than all the other devotees.

My point previously, that maybe got lost in the confusion was that the religious sentiment of modern people transcends this Christian identification. My point was that I think there are some fine religious sentiments in many people of the world, but I am saying that I think it is a shame that this religious sentiment has to be stiffled by the Christian dogma. Religious people of the world are all being told that the only place to put their religious faith is in Jesus. Well, I think it is a shame that such fine religious sentiments that many good people in the world have has to be stiffled with the Christian propaganda. Many "christians" do have a respectable faith in God, but it is not due to Jesus or Christianity but due to the fact that they are spiritual beings in nature and naturally inclined to believe in God. My point was that their faith transcends Christianity. My point is that IN SPITE of Jesus and Christianity many "christians" have a strong faith in a personal God. I don't think that Jesus or Christianity should get all the credit for the natural religious instincts of people. Most of it comes from the fact that God is in the heart of every living being, not because Jesus died on the cross or all that bunk.

The eternal form of Lord Siva is the Sadasiva who is actually a form of Maha-Vishu. Siva and Maha-Vishnu are the same, but when Maha-Vishnu has to engage with Maya Devi he must transform himself into Siva to do that. There are 11 forms of Siva known in the universe and residing in different places at the same time. In the end all these forms of Siva must merge back into Sadasiva. Siva tattva is very mysterious. It's very difficult to fully understand Siva tattva. But apparently Sadasiva has his spiritual realm in the Viraja-river which is the spiritual water that seperates the brahmandas from the Vaikuntha. So, the eternal Sadasivaloka is in the Viraja, not in Vaikuntha proper.

duh, Srila Saraswati Thakur was working on a plan to in fact create what we call the "Saraswata" branch of the Gaudiya sampradaya. Of course he needed some formal diksha to satisfy critics and future generations of disciples. He didn't need formal diksha to perfect his spiritual life which was already perfected as the son of Bhaktivinode Thakur. Why little people today think that we all have to live up to some standard that founders of sampradayas set for themselves is quite amuzing. The always say "well Ragunatha das Goswami did this or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did that". the fact is that Mahaprabhu came to deliver the whole world. It is impossible to think that he required formal diksha from every soul in the world that he wanted to deliver. The descriptions of Mahaprabhu is that wherever he went there was a flood of love of Krishna. That was not some mass formal initiation that he was giving millions of souls who were drowned in the tidal wave of love of God that followed Mahaprabhu around. Mahaprabhu is still here leading the Sankirtan movement all over the world. Many souls will be delivered and attain love of Krishna without some formal diksha by some so-called guru who needs disciples to maintain a livelyhood. Just follow Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement and if the right time and the place to get formal diksha comes up then that is just fine. If it doesn't you can still attain love of Krishna without formal diksha. Following the process is most important. If you do that, then maybe Mahaprabhu will send you a formal diksha guru - maybe he won't. Just chant Hare Krishna and don't worry about the formalities for now.

Srila Prabhupada" He said that in 2000 years the Christians haven't accepted the instruction of Jesus. So, what use is Christianity if after 2000 years it hasn't produced a true follower of Jesus? He rejected Christianity by pointing out that IT HASN"T WORKED even after 2000 years have passed. He said that in 2000 years the Christians haven't been able to accept the instructions of Jesus. So, as far I am am concerned that is rejecting Christianity.

Srila Prabhupada never mentioned any sub-branches of ISKCON. ISKCON is ONE solitary branch. ISKCON is supposed to have leaves, fruits and flowers - not more branches.

ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada? That is just a false idea. ISKCON = Srila Prabhupada is foolish imaginative idea. Srila Prabhupada lives in his instructions, not in some bureaucracy full of ambitious persons who commit untold offenses to their own spiritual master.

even if you take diksha from a guru that your are pleased with, it will not do any magic. it will not do some miracle that the other gurus haven't done. the magic is in following the process, not in formal diksha. you are going to be very disappointed if you think that taking diksha again from some so-called higher Vaishnava is going to do any magic. It won't. Just follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada and you will experience the bliss of Krishna consciousness and then you will know what it is all about. You don't need diksha again. It's not going to change anything.

I don't agree. You are saying ISKCON is many branches of the Caitanya tree. Srila Prabhupada said ISKCON is ONE branch of the Caitanya tree. To be an acharya in ISKCON today is to be a branch of the Chaitanya tree. But Srila Prabhupada didn't say ISKCON is many branches, he said it is ONE branch. Every acharya is a further branch of the tree. If ISKCON has many acharyas then there are many branches and ISKCON is no longer ONE branch as Srila Prabhupada described.

I just posted a quote where Srila Prabhupada said he never studied Christianity. What did Srila Prabhupada know about Jesus other than a few one-liners that he has heard from other people? Srila Prabhupada knew very little about the Bible and Jesus. He never studied it. If he thought it was important he surely would have studied the Bible, but he never bothered with it. Does that sound like someone who thought Jesus was REALLY a shaktyavesha avatar? If Jesus was really a shaktyavesha avatar them why didn't Srila Prabhupada bother to learn more about Jesus? All he knew about Jesus was just a couple of lines like "thou shalt not kill" and "though shalt not steal" etc. Srila Prabhupada was not the least bit interested in Jesus or he would have done some study on subject of Jesus. But, said he never studied about Jesus. He wasn't interested in Jesus. He said a few positive things about Jesus but he always rejected Christianity and the philosophy of Jesus. So, really why are some people trying portray Prabhupada as a Jesus freak?

you shouldn't mislead people on what Srila Prabhupada actually said about Jesus. Srila Prabhupada didn't "fully support Jesus". That is just a false claim. What he did say was: So, Srila Prabhupada did not accept the philosophy of Jesus. He did not "fully support Jesus". That is just false.

Srila Prabhupada describes Christians: It's quite obvious on this forum also that the fanatic and dogmatist Jesus people cannot be changed. they insist to waste their time and energy on Jesus when they could be thinking about Krishna.

do ISKCON gurus then say that they are a "branch of ISKCON". That doens't even sound right. For your theory to work, the ISKCON gurus would have to say that they are a branch of ISKCON, yet at the same time they are in ISKCON. You can be IN a branch and still be a branch. See, where Srila Prabhupada has made the distinction in that purport is if he would have said "I" (Srila Prabhupada) am a branch of the Chaitanya tree) it would be feasible to make your argument. But, Srila Prabhupada said all of ISKCON is one branch. If ISKCON has sub-branches then there is no longer ONE branch of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada said all of ISKCON is ONE branch. He didn't say it was a limb full of branches. If there are many branches IN ISKCON then ISKCON is no longer a branch but a limb. Srila Prabhupada never said ISKCON was limb, but ONE branch - not many branches. By your theory ISKCON is many branches of the Chaitanya tree. But, Srila Prabhupada said it was ONE branch.

Not really. How can you say that there can be other branches and still be ISKCON? The whole of ISKCON is ONE branch. Srila says ISKCON is ONE branch of the Caitanya tree. If all of ISKCON is ONE branch, then how can there many many branches within ISKCON. The branch of ISKCON will have to branch out from ISKCON. If you says that ISKCON has many branches then ISKCON cannot be ONE branch that Srila Prabhupada describes. Within ISKCON everything is ONE branch. It is impossible for ISKCON to be a branch and have branches within. The branches have to stem out from ISKCON. Everything within ISKCON is part of the ONE branch of Srila Prabhupada. To say that within ISKCON there are many branches then ISKCON can no longer be One branch. There is no such thing as branches within a branch. The branches must come out, they cannot be within. All ISKCON temples are ISKCON and therefore the ONE branch of the Caitanya tree.

Srila Prabhupada on Christians:

Srila Prabhupada had never studied the Christian or Jewish books. His example is the best example.