Guruvani

Srila Prabhupada: A such, we don't need to bother him with our stupid childish questions as the the masters and sages of bygone days have already asked any question that is worth asking and the anwers are in the books. When your "living guru" vacates his stool bag, who are you going to consult? Why is he writing books? Why does he have a website? If you can only get help from the stool bag manifesation of guru, then why do they publish his lectures on the internet?

When all else fails bury the discussion in copy and paste of Narayana Maharaja, even though nobody is going to read it. We know where to read the lectures of Narayana Maharaja. We don't need anyone to copy and paste his library in the topic we are discussing. If we want to hear his lectures we will order the CDs online.

You isolated that quote out of context and obscured the real meaning. The orginal quote comes from an example of a scholar trying to understand scripture without accepting the commentary of the acharyas. I can't think of a better example than this one of how the words of Srila Prabhupada can be taken out of context to support concepts that actually go against the intended meaning.

Just back off and try not to get too personal and play the boogey man game with me. When you become siddha then come back and give me a holler. Otherwise, your formula hasn't worked either and you don't need to be condescending as if you have it all going on and mastered your soul. The "living guru" hasn't shown any miracles and a horde of neophyte followers being fanatic all over the world hasn't shown that disciples of the "living guru" are really any better than anyone else. If you can't talk philosophically and debate the issues then don't resort to intimidation and insult, because it doesn't work on me. anyone that has been around these forums for the last few years knows that insulting me and talking down to me doesn't change anything. I have been presenting logical and scientific reason to support my views. If you can't think of something to say besides condescending and talking down from your pedestal, then we don't have much to discuss.

The sound that comes out your gurus vocal chords are just physical sounds. His body is a machine. His vocal chords are simply performing the same function as the tape player. Your "living guru" concept is a farce, because the spirit soul always exists on the spiritual energy and is in actuality unconnected to the body. The shastra gives the example that if you put an iron instrument in fire it will take on the quality of fire of heat and light. Same principle is in effect when any material thing gets used in the service of Krishna. The tape recording of the mantra becomes spiritualized and actually becomes a spiritual sound - not a physical sound. to blaspheme the tape recording of the sound is the same thing as blaspheming the deity that is made of stone or brass. Those who say that the taped form of mantra is material are committing the same offense as saying that the diety is material thing made out of stone or wood. It's blasphemy. We could say the same thing about the deity. We could say "it is physical thing made out of stone, it is not spiritual". But, we learn from shastra that the deity is the form of the Lord and that form is spiritual. When the Holy Name or the mantra takes recorded form it still has the same form as the form of the Holy Name and it is always spiritual. So, please don't blaspheme the Holy Name of the Lord in recorded form because it is non-different than the deity. There are even "gurus" out there blaspheming Sri Nama Prabhu in his form as recorded sound. It is very unfortunate and very offensive and such gurus should stop such blasphemy of Sri Nama Prabhu in his form as recorded sound. It is the same thing as blaspheming the deity as being stone or wood.

I am a lucid dreamer. Not always but very often I have very lucid dreams that I cannot understand are just dreams until I wake up. Some of my dreams are very detailed, apparently in color and very lucid. Dreams are very mysterious to me, because I have many dreams about things that never cross my mind in daily life and just seem to come out of nowhere. I occasionally have dreams of things that have been on my mind during the day. such as certain jobs, projects or activities I was very absorbed in during the day. What confuses me is why I have such very lucid dreams about things that I have never even experienced in life and things that are not anything I have familiarity with. Just two nights ago I dreamed that I was working at an automotive repair shop and some Oriental guy came in with a pick-up truck full of bicycles in boxes and was able to convince the owner of the shop to buy all the bicycles. Then , I had to climb up in a loft and stack these boxes of bicycles in the loft as someone below was handing them to me. I was walking very cafefully around the loft and stacking up the boxes and being careful not to fall down. I think such dreams are something like psychic phenomena or something like remote viewing. Most of my dreams are very real to me in the dream. They are not just fuzzy, abstract visions but many times very detailed experiences of other peoples lives.

You have just confirmed what I am saying. Devotees from both systems fall down. Either they get intiated by tape or in person there are devotees falling down. Devotees who got intiation in person fall down just as easy as devotees who got initiated by tape. It doesn't matter where or how you get initiated. If a devotee is completely sincere he will succeed even if he never got any kind of formal diksha. It all comes down to sincerity. Where or how you get initiated is not the real secret to success. Even devotees that never got formal initiation can succeed where initiated devotees fail. I don't believe any anthing except sincerity. Rituals and formalities don't really make the difference between success or failure................sincerity does. There is plenty of proof in the history of the movement that formal diksha didn't do any magic on anyone. Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said that all Vaishnavas are gurus. Devotees are chanting Hare Krishna all over the world and initiating the whole world into the chanting of Hare Krishna. One Vaishnava is just as much guru as the next. It's not that only Narayana Maharaja or the ISKCON gurus are gurus. All Vaishnavas are gurus and anyone that has ever had any contact with the Krishna consciousness movement has heard the Maha mantra from a Vaishnava - a guru. That is sufficient and that is enough. All these rituals and formalities have become a scam and I for one don't buy into the scam. Narayana Maharaja is not guru any more that any other Vaishnava. According to Sridhar Maharaja all Vaishnavas are guru. I don't see one Vaishnava as guru and the other as not guru. If we don't see all Vaishnavas as guru, then we aren't guru or Vaishnava.

First what you must understand is that the sound from the gayatri tape is no different than the sound coming from the lips of Srila Prabhupada. Your hocus-pocus version of some magic in the sound coming from the mouth as any more spiritual than the sound coming from the audio player is just more of the "living guru" scam. Because when Srila Prabhupada recorded the gayatri on tape he spiritualized the energy of that tape and the sound that comes from the machine is no different than the sound coming from the mouth. What you so foolishly forget is that the body is also a machine. Krishna explains in the Gita that the body is a machine made out of material energy. The vocal chords of the body are part of a machine. Everybody is getting the mantra through a machine. Either the machine is a body machine or the machine is a tape player, but both are machines made out of material energy that can be used in the service of Krishna and spiritualized. The body is not a living thing, it is a machine. It's the soul in the body that is the living thing. The soul can use any number of machines in the service of Krishna and spiritualize that energy. Your guru is actually just a very sophisticated robot. His body is a machine. He is NOT the body. When Srila Prabhupada recorded gayatri mantras on tape the energy of the tape became spiritualized just as much as the sound that comes out of YOUR robot guru who is not the body machine robot. See, you buffoons are still in the bodily concept of life and you think that the machine body that the soul is in is the guru. The guru is not a machine- either the body or the tape player. The guru is transcendental spirit and using this machine or that machine to transmit the message of Krishna to the suffering souls of the material world. Your got your mantras from a machine as well - the machine of the human body. This whole world is a robot world of machines we call the body. Besides that, you are living proof that getting the mantra from the body machine is no more effective than getting it from the tape player machine. You haven't attained siddhi yet with you mantras you got from the robot machine you think is your guru, so who are you you to make claims about which form of mantra is better than the other. You have no proof and YOU are certainly not proof that getting the mantra from the lips of the gurus is any better than getting it from a tape player. So, you are justing talking crap because nobody has proved yet that there is any special magic in getting mantra from the vocal chords is any better than getting it from the tape player. If you weren't a fraud and a farce you would admit that your mantras didn't do any magic and you are still clueless about your spiritual identity..

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The living siksha guru didn't do any miracles on you, so why are you saying that a living guru is so essential? You are here as a testimony that the living siksha guru couldn't help you, so why do you think a living guru is going to help somebody else? Your problem is that you try to classify siksha gurus into two classifactions as living and dead. Well, shastra doesn't refer to anything such thing as a dead siksha guru. That is your invention, but it is a sorry attitude that thinks of any liberated soul as a dead guru. Bhaktivinode says that a Vaishnava "dies to live" and living spreads the Holy Name around. So, Bhaktivinode says that even "dead" Vaishnavas continue to spread the Holy Name around. There are many "dead" gurus that are more guru than your "living" guru.

And the fakers are all crawling out of the woodwork spouting off their bigotry as they stand as living proof that formal diksha is a joke. formal diksha didn't help you guys, so why are you saying that somebody else has to have it? it's guys like you clowns that have me convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that your formal diksha was a waste of good ghee and barley.

I am saying that spiritual diksha is the indoctrination into Krishna consciousness. That is not accomplished in a ritual or a formal ceremony but in hearing and chanting about Krishna in terms of the revealed scriptures. Krishna consciousness is beyond diksha. Vaishnavism is beyond Brahmanism. Vaishnavism includes brahmanism with or without the thread and the gayatri mantras. Krishna consciousness is beyond Brahmanism and the gayatri mantra. You know well that Sridhar Maharaja has shown that the gayatri mantra doesn't have the range that the Holy Name has. Brahmanism in Vaishnavism is an ornament, not a foundation. I was initiated by The Nectar of Devotion. That book was what injected my heart with Krishna consciousness and brought Krishna into my heart. The formality, the ritual didn't have even a fraction of the magic that reading the books of Srila Prabhupada did.

That's nice in theory but it's a proven fact that so many who have taken diksha have not practically shown that there is any magic in the mantra. Maybe it worked for Lord Brahma, but lets be real, it's not doing any magic here in kali-yuga on the fallen chumps proud of the string around their neck. Theoretical siddhanta hasn't proven to really be all that much of a help in the daily lives of western devotees grappling with material existance. Vaishnavism is beyond Brahmanism. A Vaishnava doesn't need Gayatri mantra to quality for deity worship. Chanting the Maha mantra is more effective than chanting any other mantra. All these formalities are just so phony when it comes down to western people trying to cultivate some Krishna consciousness in their daily struggle for existence. The utopian temples and socieities either failed or never even got a chance. All these lovely formalities and cultural ornaments are nice, but they really don't have much practicality in the bitter struggle for existence outside the Mathas and Dhamas. I'm just disenchanted with all these rituals and theoretical concepts. My idea is Krishna consciousness for the working class people in a bitter struggle for existence. Srila Prabhupada wanted to create a society that could offer devotees a better life and a utopian situation, but his goal and his mission was mutilated by a misguided gang of petty bureaucrats whose only concern was their own position and prestige. In the bitter struggle for existence that many devotees are facing around the world today I see very little value in these formalities and flowery theoretical concepts.

Look Beavis, I am talking about formal diksha. It's buffoons like you that get formal diksha confused with spiritual diksha that is the problem. I was initiated by Srila Prabhupada through his books long before I got formal diksha in an ISKCON temple. Your problem is that you can't distinguish between the form and the substance. You think the ritual is "diksha" when diksha is not actually some ritual.

It's not just me. You too and all the rest of them are all living proof that formal diksha is a joke. don't try to make me out to be the only example that formal diksha is a joke, because you are just as much a testiment to that as I am. It's been proven that formal diksha from Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Govinda Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and the entire circus of ISKCON gurus does no magic or no miracles and that devotees with formal diksha are just as likely to fail as Bhakti Butterfly. Yes, you too are living proof that formal diksha is a joke.

Formal initiation of all kinds has proven to be a joke and a farce, and getting diksha from a wiggling-squiggling bag of stool that people think is the "living guru" is just as big a joke. Hey, we might as well use the tape-recording version of diksha, because in the long run I think it will do less harm than all these gurus running around the world playing jagat-guru. It's all a joke. I prefer the tape recording version because at least we know Srila Prabhupada isn't going to bloop and run off with a Hare Krishna girl and bunch of money. Your living guru joke is not the solution. It's just a different kind of joke. So, at least we should try and teach people to accept a self-realized soul as guru even if he doesn't sport a bag of stool and urine in the name of "living guru". These "living gurus" don't have anything on Srila Prabhupada just because they have a bag of stool and urine to flap around in front of people.

That's funny. All over the Hare Krishna movement newcomers are being fooled by cheap imitations that have pulled the wool over their eyes in the name of "tradition". The cheap imitation is not Srila Prabhupada. The cheap imitation are the dimestore gurus that have cropped-up like an epidemic of diaper-rash all over the Hare Krishna movement. All these career gurus and their clueless disciples don't equate to genuine tradition that has nothing to do with the hoax and the scam that is being passed off as parampara. If anything is a cheap imitation it is the neophyte pretenders that are playing guru like little girls play house with their Barbi dolls. Let's play guru................... The game is over. It's time to get the parampara out of the sandbox and stop this charade they call tradition.

Could Aliens and UFOs actually be demigods and mystic yogis playing tricks on mankind?

And in that spirit so many have come forward to lead and teach and play guru and create havoc in the name of parampara. for how long is this formula for failure going to be acceptable? how many bogus gurus are going to rise and fall before the Krishna consciousness movement is simply relegated to the status of maniacal cult of pretenders and hoaxers. Gurus aren't a dime a dozen. A self-realized soul that can deliver fallen souls from material existence is very rare.

Every clown in here boasting about formal diksha is a bigot and a fraud and a living example that formal diksha is a joke. You people need to stop deceiving yourself because you are not really fooling anybody else. Nobody buys your bigoted ecclesiastical bullshit that you are living proof is a cultural ornament that doesn't amount to diddly-squat when it comes to self-realization. Profilers, pretenders and fakers...... Your formal diksha didn't do any magic and you are living proof. There are many uninitiated devotees in India that make all of you look like buffoons. (buffoon: a "ridiculous, but nevertheless amusing person.")

Another example that diksha is joke has now joined the bigot parade to preach something that he/she is proof positive is a farce. Look at yourself! You are mess! You are proof positive that there is no magic in formal diksha! Why don't you give up this lie and admit that diksha isn't magic and your life is a mess? I have seen dozens of pretenders and failures coming around here touting the glories of formal diksha when there are themselves living proof that there is no magic in formal diksha. Quit playing the game and admit that formal diksha didn't do any miracles and that you are no more self-realized than Bhakta Schlomo. Why do all these fakers and bhogis come around here bragging about diksha when they can't even find their own ass in self-realization? Duh............ Your formal diksha is just a big show. We have plenty of proof that formal diksha never changed anything. In India and around the world there are thousands of "initiated" devotees chasing after the same illusion as everybody else. Formal diksha has about as much spiritual power as Catholic communion. Eat your cracker, dunk your head in a river, take formal diksha...... They are all the same ritual that is symbolic of an inner birth, they are not rebirth in the true spiritual sense.

with all this talk about becoming poor by worshiping Krishna I think I might just become a Shaiva and see if I can't get the wealth and women I really desire. Om Namo Shivaya.. shivoham............................. Maybe you should go kiss the Shiva lingam and see if you get lucky? Lord Shiva is the man..................................!!!!!!!!!!

I think this topic has had enough attention already and it's time to move on. Most any of us in here have payed a high price for having taken an interest in Krishna consciousness. We gave up college, gave up our material possessions to the temple, gave up our friends and familes and spent years devoted to a movement that quickly turned into shambles after the passing of Srila Prabhupada. Yet, most of us have never blamed Krishna or Srila Prabhupada for ruining our material lives. Yet, the lord has a way to compensate and help us if we don't lose faith and turn against him. Even though I ruined my life and gave up 6 years college I had coming from my military service and sold my car and took all my belongings to the temples and surrendered everything and then gave the best years of my life to the movement, I never saw any value in getting bitter and blaming Krishna or Srila Prabhupada. Plenty of us could be whining and complaining that Krishna ruined our lives. But,we aren't and we aren't going to baby anyone who got his panties all in bunch because he can't fulfill all his material desires and is blaming Krishna for it.

It's devotees like you, me and thousands of others that are clear and present proof that formal initiation is a joke. There are thousands of fraud devotees going around touting the absolute necessity of formal diksha when they are themselves living proof that formal diksha performs no miracles, performs no magic and doesn't make one devotee better than another. It's just such a damn joke to hear so many neophytes wallowing in false ego and illusion and then bragging to the world how important and indespensible is formal diksha when they are themselves living proof that formal diksha doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Formal diskha didn't prove anything in thousands of cases. We have plenty of proof that formal diksha doesn't change anything. 99% of these formal diksha braggers aren't any different than bhakta Billy, they just like to present some facade that formal diksha somehow did a miracle in their life when in fact they are just typical bhogis enjoyer their senses in the material world. 99% of the formal diksha preachers are all the proof we need that formal diksha doesn't change anything. They talk as if formal diksha made them self-realized and masters of their senses, when in fact they are all living testimonials that formal diksha doesn't perform any mystic miracles.

Looks like the ISKCON gurus have done their work on another poor fool? Don't blame it on Krishna. These gurus aren't representing Krishna. They represent selfish ambitions and their own false identities.