Guruvani

So, the conclusion is that Krishna does not protect his pure devotees and thus they are falling down by the zillions to becomes amoeba life forms and then gradually evolving to be worms in stool and eventually insects, animals and birds etc., because they took a nap and had a dream that lasted millions of years as they passed through millions of life forms to finally get a human birth to make bogus siddhanta about the jivas falling down from Goloka? this thesis is proof that we have evolved from worms in stool to become retarded philosophers inventing bogus siddhanta.

There are two kinds of Bhagavat. One is the book Bhagavat. One is the person Bhagavat. It's alot harder to forge and fake the book Bhagavat, because we have the Bhagavatam already in the original form and the original translation of Srila Prabhupada. What we also have now is a sundry assortment of fake person Bhagavats who have inflicted immeasurable damage upon the Krishna consciousness movement. Some of these fake person Bhagavats have been from within ISKCON and some have been from outside ISKCON. So, when the movement gets saturated with hundreds of fake person Bhagavats, we can always take shelter of the book Bhagavat and rest assured that we are not being scammed by some fool pretending to be guru. The book Bhagavat is the literary incarnation of the Lord. It cannot be falsified like these false person Bhagavats. So, at least we have the book Bhagavat and if we have a least one genuine form of Bhagavat we are assured a genuine education in the science of Krishna consciousness. We don't need all these fake person Bhagavats who are out to garner some naive souls to be their disciples and support their jet-set lifestyles of sense enjoyment under the garb of a renunciant. Book Bhagavat won't cheat you. These fake person Bhagavats will cheat you and have cheated thousands of souls who came to ISKCON on the basis of Srila Prabhupada's books.

i didn't see anybody mention anything about ritvik but you. We didn't say ritvik. If you really take an objective view of the "print books" idea, it is quite obvious that these acharyas felt that printing books and getting them in the hands of suffering souls was the best panacea for the plight of mankind. Ritvik? Who said anything about ritvik? Nobody needs any damn ritvik to be connected to Srila Prabhupada. You can connect to Srila Prabhupada through his books, you don't need any damn ritvik. Ritvik is an ISKCON device. Since ISKCON is now defunct, the ritvik system isn't necessary. What is necessary is that people of the world understand the science of Krishna consciousness. They don't need any damn ritvik for that. the books can get the job done.

The misguided and uneducated person behind this thesis is like a magician doing a cheap magic trick. His magic trick works by taking maybe three small references from the conversational statements of Srila Prabhupada and maybe one or two references from the books out of context and then he adds page after page of fabrication, concoction and forged material to make it look as if Srila Prabhupada wrote volumes and volumes on this theory of the jiva falling from Goloka. In reality, all he has is a couple of sentences from some conversations of Srila Prabhupada that he misinterprets, distorts and manipulates to arrive at his erroneous conclusions. If you took the actual statements of Srila Prabhupada that he uses in his thesis, you wouldn'nt even have a good paragraph of material. So, to give his fraud thesis the appearance that Srila Prabhupada spoke volumes on this subject, he fabricates page after page after page of concocted fabrications woven between image after image after image. Actually, his whole thesis is based on less than a paragraph of actual material from the works of Srila Prabhupada. This fraud thesis is 99% bogus forgeries and fabrications and less than 1% based on the words of Srila Prabhupada. So, he is like a cheap sidewalk magician using trickery to fool innocent people. We have posted scriptural references from the books of Srila Prabhupada to authoritatively defeat the fall-from-goloka theorists, but they continue to keep up with this illusion that Srila Prabhupada supports their theory with page after page of references. He takes a sentence of Srila Prabhupada and then writes a whole page of fabrications to couch it in to give his fabrications the illusion of being authoritative statements of Srila Prabhupada. So, it's obvious that these fall-from-goloka theorists are willing resort to deception, forgery, fabrication and concoction to try and prove their bogus theory. If you strip away all the forgery, fabrication and deception from the thesis you end up with a couple of sentences from Srila Prabhupada that are being used to forge and fabricate a false thesis that is 99% make believe fairytale that some dullard has manufactured in his oxygen starved brain. Take away all the pictures and all the forgery and fabrication and you end up with less than a paragraph of material that these fools are using to distort the Vaishnava siddhanta. We have produced many authoritative references from the books of Srila Prabhupada, the writings of Srila Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to show that the fall-from-goloka theory is bogus. We have much material that proves them wrong and they have less than a paragraph from Srila Prabhupada that they are using in a thesis that is 99% fraud, forgery and fabrication. Only an idiot would fail to see the fraud, deception and trickery they have to resort to in order to build their theory. When you boil it all down, they have about three sentences of Srila Prabhupada that they abuse and misuse to propagate their bogus siddhanta and we have shown many proper references that prove their theory wrong. Anybody that takes a fair and objective look at this thread can see that this thesis is a fraud and a forgery based on a couple of statements that they have misunderstood. Take away the trickery and you have actually nothing to support their bogus theory except fraud and forgery.

It's always a bit awkward when a siddha-purusha comes to this mundane plane and tries to sprinkle a little nectar around. There is never a perfect symbiosis between the siddha and the plane of mundane energy. It's an awkward situation, but the nectar is always appreciated by us freaks of nature looking for drop of water on the desert of material eixstence. It's hard to expect much from the guru when he is in trance and gazing into the infinite and we are asking him to give a little attention to the finite. His infallibility was displayed by how he was so absorbed in the infinite that he was losing cognizance of the finite. I am sure that after shedding his threads of the mortal coil that he became very attentive to all those whom have taken shelter of him. He was showing how to ignore everything and everyone at the time of death and just focus on the infinite.

Well, I think that also says something about the physical succession vadis and how important the books are. If physical succession is the real substance and the real principle, then what in the hell is this "print books" idea all about? Apparently, Srila Saraswati Thakur felt that books were the single most important feature of distributing Krishna consciousness all over the world. Books are the basis is what we can take away from this topic. More important than temples, gurus and formality is that the human race get real knowledge about Krishna and the process of devotional service; hearing and chanting. Reading the books is hearing from the lips of the pure devotees. Now, that is what I am talkin' about!!!!!

Of course. Srila Prabhupada was quite the sly fox when it came to tricking maya's clowns into doing some service with as little disturbance as possible. I understand that as a follower of Sridhar Maharaja you cannot be suffering from any bogus siddhanta disease. Just don't get too proud of having some personal sanga, or I will get jealous and find a way to make you look arrogant....:namaskar:

Oh, I forgot to tell you, I was a Shaivite in my last life but I met a Vaishnava and saw the light so I put down my hash pipe and picked-up the japa-mala. Maybe in some future birth you too can become a Vaishnava like Lord Siva? Siva is not a Shaivite - he is a Vaishnava!!!!

So, in Krishna consciousness that is why we are actually offering service to the spiritual master and not unto the Lord directly. Srila Prabhupada was the self-realized acharya and he accepts service that falls short of what is acceptable to Mahaprabhu himself. We can't serve Mahaprabhu directly anyway. He is much more pleased when we serve his his pure devotees. So, anyone who doesn't chant 64 rounds a day is considered fallen. Fortunately, Mahaprabhu is known as "Patita pavana" - the deliverer of fallen souls. 64 rounds a day is considered as liberated. Mahaprabhu is the deliverer of the fallen. So, there is still hope. Especially, if we offer service to the pure devotee of the Lord instead of to the Lord directly. the devotee of the Lord are more generous than the Lord. So, that is why serving the pure devotees is more important and more helpful than attempting to offer something to the Lord directly. In the end, we are more concerned with what is acceptable to the pure devotees than what is acceptable to the Lord. Our success is in getting the mercy of the pure devotee, not in getting the mercy of the Lord directly. Even Sridhar Maharaja approved 4 rounds a day if in fact the devotee was so engaged in service that he could not complete 16 rounds or 64 rounds. So, the 64 round a day argument is moot, because we can't offer anything to the Lord directly, even if we manage to rattle off 64 rounds of Nama-aparadha a day.

You are challenging blind faith in shastra but not blind faith in science. You are quite secure to have blind faith in science and the Bible, but you are very quick to challenge blind faith in the Bhagavatam. This selective blind faith that you promote is a scam. If you are going to challenge blind faith, then why don't you challenge blind faith in the mundane instead of blind faith in the inconceivable? Your attack on blind faith has an agenda and is not unbiased and objective. You only challenge blind faith where blind faith is the only thing we have. You encourage blind faith in mundane science and mundane religion. So, it's quite obvious that you have a prejudice and an agenda that is not objective.

In essence, this Vigraha foolishness is attempting to establish that the brahman aspect of "brahmeti, paramatmeti, bhagavan it sadbyate" does not exist. According to Vigraha there is no "brahmeti". According to Vigraha there is only Bhagavan and no Paramatma and no Brahman. Brahman is for real. Neophyte Vaishnavas might have a problem with accepting that Brahman is a reality, but that is only because they enjoy manufacturing their own siddhanta according to their fanstasyland ideas.

Theist, there is an umbilical cord attached to the baby in the womb and supplying nutrition to the fetus. The fetus thus must discharge an amount of urine and stool as the umbilical cord is supplying blood and nutrients to the fetus. The fetus thus discharges small amounts of stool and urine from within the womb, even if just from the pores of the skin waste products are discharged from the fetus. The fetus cannot live 9 months in the womb without some sort of by-products or discharge. Now, quit pretending to know more than the Vedic sages and pray to Jesus to give you some common sense.

Honestly, I have met riksha-wallas in India that are more intelligent and learned than you in Vedic knowledge. You Shaivites need to put down the hash pipe and pick up some japa-mala and learn how to chant the Maha-mantra. I have seen plenty of Shaivites in India so stoned on hash that they couldn't even find their own ass. Shaivites live in a cloud of ignorance and claim to be all-enlightened, but you can't have an intelligent discussion with a Shaivite whose head is full of smoke and dope. Debating shastra with a Shaivite is like trying to talk philosophy with a donkey on drugs.

Thats not the argument in this thread. Don't try to derail the topic. Let's talk about whether the Vedic texts have Siva as supreme above Vishnu or whether the Vedic texts have Vishnu as supreme above Siva. You are obviously too ignorant about the Vedic scriptures to be ready for the post-graduate siddhanta regarding Radha-Krishna, so lets just stick to some elementary school concepts that maybe your pea-brain can grasp. Your Siva siddhanta cannot stand up to a scholarly debate. It's based on sentiment and folklore and is not based on proper Vedic authority.

Speak for yourself. I am 54 years old and have been studying Indian religion and philosophy for the last 33 years. I don't play videa games chump. That is probably your problem not mine.

I kept hearing this Shaivite blabbing, but I never see anything authoritative to establish their beliefs on any shastric authority. At least the Vaishnavas can support their siddhanta with shastra. These bogus Shaivites just expect that they can come in blabbing all sort of nonsense about Siva and we are supposed to accept it because they say so. Sorry Charlie, but Vaishnavas rely on Vedic shastra for their siddhanta and they don't accept folklore and Hindu mythology. Shaivism is about as corrupted and confused as you can get. Every Tom, Dick and Harry that claims to be a Shaiva guru spouts off all sorts of wild claims about Siva without any sort of proper Vedic shastra to support his views and then he sucks in a bunch of naive Hindus who are too stupid or too lazy to study the scriptures and be able to make any sort of informed decision about whether these "Shaiva" gurus are talking out their anus or if they have any clue what they are saying. Shaivites set around smoking opium and hashish and claiming to be spiritually advanced when they are too stoned on dope to even find their own ass.

Maybe theist needs a few more trips through the amniotic sac to refresh his memory of what it is like? It appears that he thinks that the amniotic sac is quite the cozy situation. Compared to dancing with Krishna on the banks of the Yamuna, being in an amniotic sac is not a very desirable place to be. I have seen some babies come out of the womb and they definitely look like they have been under some severe stress when they come out. You can see that coming out of the womb is a big relief for them. I was there when all three of my kids were delivered. They were glad to get the hell out of that womb. It was quite easy to see that. when my son was born, they put him on my wifes stomach and then he looked straight at me with a look like 'Oh, hi daddy, it's good to see you". He appeared to recognize me and looked at me with comfort and relief. When my daughers were born at home the midwives delivered them and handed them straight into my arms. I could see that being in the womb was a very stressful situation and that they were certainly glad to be out of there.

they might see him as supreme, but that view cannot be supported with the Vedic texts. It's just a false belief that pseudo-Shaivites have manufactured against the proper conclusion the of the Vedas and the supplementary Vedic literatures. Siva as being supreme is a man-made doctrine that has no proper support in the Vedas. He is supreme on his planet. But, he is not supreme over Lord Krishna. According to his birth in this universe, yes he was born from out between the eyes of Lord Brahma, so he is the son of Lord Brahma. That is the Bhagavat siddhanta. Otherwise, what is your story on the birth of Lord Siva within this brahmanda? What does the Shaiva camp have to say about that and where is their proof in any shastric reference.

i Let me jog your memory Bapuji! The topic asks the question "Is Lord Shiva the son of Brahma?" and was inviting opinions and discussion. It was not a topic for the exclusive glorification of Siva, but was asking for discussion about his place in the Vedic pantheon. So, don't don't go accusing me a crashing a Siva thread, because the thread was calling for answers as to the ontological position of Siva in relationship to Lord Brahma. Apparently, someone in here is getting his panties all in a bunch because some of the comments didn't satisfy his Shaivite theory about the divinity of Lord Siva above Vishnu and Krishna.

For the bigot in here who says that Hare Krishna people disrespect Siva, maybe he needs to be reminded that Sivaratri is observed in all ISKCON temples as per the Vaishnava calender and in the Gaudiya siddhanta it is said "vaisnavanam yatha Shambhu" that of all the Vaishnavas Lord Siva is the topmost. So, your bigoted remarks about Hare Krishna prejudice against Lord Siva is really just a figment of your own distorted and psychotic imagination, as the Gaudiya Vaishnavas respect Lord Siva as the topmost of all Vaishnavas as per the authorized scriptures. You come in here making all sorts of bigoted accusations against the Hare Krishna people as if they are out on the streets making propaganda against Lord Siva. the Hare Krishna's have no axe to grind with Lord Siva. He is highly respected and worshipped as a plenary expansion of Lord Krishna. So, you are shadow boxing here with an enemy you dreamed-up in your own confused mind. Gaudiya Vaishnavas have the greatest of respect for Lord Siva as a plenary portion of Lord Krishna and as a guna-avatar in the trinity of the three chief demigods of the universe. You are making a typical straw-man argument by creating an enemy that doesn't exist out of your own mind and then assigning that demon as being the makings of someone you choose to fight with. Gaudiya Vaishnavas have never attacked or assualted or insulted Lord Siva. You have manufactured that in your own imagination because for some reason or other you have a need to put down Lord Krishna and prove to yourself that Siva is supreme. Nobody in this forum has attacked Siva. You came here looking for a fight because typical of most Shaivas you have an anger problem and probably need some classes in anger management. Stop picking a fight with the Hare Krishna's over Siva. The Hare Krishna's have never done anything against Siva. Hare Krishna's don't buy into every dimestore Shaivite that is out to make a buck on Lord Siva, but they have nothing against Lord Siva. Lord Siva is very beloved by the Gaudiya's. They just don't have any use for bogus Shaivites like you.

Guest3 never posts any scripture to support his foolish sentimental claims about Siva being supreme over Vishnu, Krishna and Rama. He talks about how Krishna and Rama worshiped Siva, but he denies that shastra also shows that Siva worshiped Krishna and Vishnu. So, he doesn't want to have a proper discussion or debate. He jsut wants to come in making all sort of unsupported, unsubstantiated and unverified claims about the ontological position of Siva in the Hindu pantheon. So, he is here to vent anger and launch foul accusations based on nothing more than his own ignorance of what the Hindu scriptures actually say about the different devas of the Hindu pantheon. He has no authority behind his claims. He thinks that because he believes something that it must be true, even if it cannot be supported with any proper Hindu scripture.

It's obvious that the author is just trying to make a stir and yet hide his identity. Any serious devotee presenting philosophical theses on Vaishnava doctrine does not do so anonymously in an attempt to mislead inexperienced people coming to Krishna consciousness. All that this kind of anonymous publishing of bogus siddhanta does is push ISKCON farther and farther back into irrelevancy. As if ISKCON isn't irrelevant enough, there has to be campaigns of bogus siddhanta being broadcast to seal the lid on their destiny in the dustbin of history. This kind of preaching is important though, because it shows the Vaishnava community how immature and ignorant are so many devotees who are even presuming to be gurus of others. The Vaishnava community and the Vaishnava congregation are not ignorant people. They know how to read the books and understand that these fall-from-goloka theorists are just politicians with an agenda to cover up decades of rot and corruption of the philosophy and the leadership of the Krishna consciousness movement.

The real impersonalist is the one who says that Krishna lets millions of his pure devotees fall down into maya and becomes worms in stool. That is worse than impersonalist actually. To accuse Krishna of that is nothing short of demonic.

the only possibility for that is to worship the same deity and have the same spiritual master. then, you might meet again in the next life, but even then you would not remember each other. if you have a spiritual tie through the same spiritual channels then you could very well be together again in a future life, but there is no guarantee and even neither of you will remember the previous life. these things are beyond our control. the important thing is to focus your attachment on Krishna or whatever form of the Lord you can accept. these material attachments to each other are not good for our spiritual needs. these are the kinds of material attachments we have to get past in order to make spriitual progress.

even more important........................... ARE YOU PREPARED TO LIVE FOR YOUR GURU? To die for the guru is easy. It's living for the guru that is the real challenge.