Guruvani

Before we can understand WHO can be spiritual master, we have to understand what is a spiritual master. A spiritual master is is not manufactured in the act of some clueless neophyte asking for initiation from an ISKCON sannyasis so he can get a seat at the prasadam hall and a bunk in the ahsram. A spiritual master is a Goswami in the true sense who has conquered the senses and attained the level of brahma-bhuta. It's obvious that many of the past ISKCON gurus were not brahma-bhuta and that many of the current gurus are not brahma-bhuta. So, before they can act as guru they must become spiritual master and attain the brahma-bhuta platform.

The previous story posted above can never be accepted as authoritative as it makes no reference as to it's source or who translated the original into English. Maybe in the Shaiva community anybody can tell a story without validating it in authentic texts. In the Gaudiya community everyone must support their claims with shastric references, which are obviously missing in the above post on the supposed killing of Nrsimhadeva Avatar. Undocumented story telling has no validity or credibility in establishing conclusions of Vedic theology. It certainly has no substantial credibility in establishing any merit to any claims made by different sects and cults of Hinduism.

that was very sweet and nice.... Sincerity is the only price to pay. Formalities are nothing compared to sincerity or love.

sounds like Sanatan Dharma to me. Srila Prabhuapda recognized Mirabai as a great devotee in the raga-marga. Both examples you give is Sanatan Dharma - love of Krishna. Sanatan Dharma is love of Krishna - not asura Varnashram which is not to be confused with Daiva Varnashram.

The word "Hindu" is not found in any Veda or any Purana. There is no such word as Hindu in Vedic shastra. The actual Vedic term is Varnashram, not Hindu. Hindu is a foreign term that Muslims or some other foreign people have given to the followers of Veda and Varnashrama Dharma.

No, all Vaishnavas follow Sanatan Dharma. Any worship of Vishnu or Krishna is Sanatan Dharma. Not just Gaudiya.

Well, I am hoping that Narayana Maharaja is just simple and not savvy in the brutal and savage ways of us western people and that is why he is naive enough to ever expect that the GBC would have ever given him any kind of warm welcome into ISKCON. I am 100% behind Narayana Maharaja being a self-effulgent acharya with his own phalanx of Sankirtan warriors. I am 100% against Narayana Maharaja having any position in ISKCON as siksha or diksha guru. But, I think that maybe if he is a very sincere devotee that of course he will be simple and vulnerable and just a victim of the brutal reality of ISKCON as a thoroughbred Prabhupada institution than can never and will never embrace any other Gaudiya acharya aside from Srila Prabhupada. Narayana Maharaja might very well be cable of teaching a more intimate and esoteric version of the Gaudiya siddhanta than Srila Prabhupada gave to the neophyte western devotees of ISKCON. Sure, why not. All the more reason why he can never really fit into the Gaudiya recruiting office known as ISKCON. Why didn't Narayana Maharaja start a Gaudiya college instead of trying to take over the Gaudiya pre-school? Srila Prabhupada's books are quite deep for those who have deep understanding, but they are quite shallow for those who are shallow devotees absorbed in the externals of ISKCON. Being greatly learned and advanced might actually disqualify Narayana Maharaja from being at the helm of ISKCON? I think it does...................

Dependence on the organization is not what it is all about, but really dependence on each other is vital for the majority of devotees who need the support structure of each other. The problem is that outside of the organizations nobody has really accomplished much of anything in the way of providing a strong sanga of devotees that can support each other. Maybe there are some who don't need peer groups and support groups, but for the most part the strength in numbers is vital for western devotees. It doesn't have to be corperate or official, but so far the corperate and official organizations are about the only groups that have really accomplished much of anything. I am a loner and I am not doing so great, so I know all about it.

But, Srila Prabhupada and Srila Saraswati Thakur both found it necessary to build the temples. Especially in the west these temples were invaluable as centers for devotee association. The temples are not about brick and mortar really. Temples are about building devotional congregations, sanga and association of devotees which is vital in the Krishna consciousness movement. It appears that Narayana Maharaja is just going to leave a disorganized number of disciples all over the world without any real base or foundation. Considering that there is strength in association and that his disciples are going to be scattered like the wind, it's hard to imagine how they are going to be able to keep up their spiritual life without a strong base of association which ISKCON as a society is actually all about. The remaining disciples of Srila Prabhupada that are holding it together with any semblance of genuine spiritual life are the ones that are sticking closely to the temples and close to each others association, the deities and the Pancaratra vidhi. Outside the inner core of ISKCON things really start to deteriorate when you really get down to the brass tacks of strict sadhana. Without a strong core and a strong local base, the followers of Narayana Maharaja are going to go the way of so many ISKCON devotees who have drifted away due to internal conflcit and practically given up spiritual life. They aren't special. Many of the fanatic followers of Narayana Maharaja will fall back into all sorts of visaya after he is gone and his group starts to crack and divide. Without temples and strongholds they are doomed. I don't see much happening in the way of developing their own bases in the western countries.

That is the abode of Sri Sadasiva Mahadeva whose realm is in the marginal zone between Vaikuntha and the brahmandas. The Rudra Siva who was born from between the eyes of Lord Brahma and who performed penances for 1000 years to realize Lord Sankarshan lives in Ilavrita Varsha. There is another form of Lord Siva that lives on the planet Vitalaloka in the subterranean heavens. Altogether there are 11 different forms of Lord Siva that all come from Lord Sankarsana Anantadeva. So, only the Mahesha Dhama of Sadasiva remains after the pralaya, but the other planets and abodes of Lord Siva within the universe all become destroyed in the pralaya. So, I guess you have to be careful which form of Lord Siva you worship. If you don't worship Sadasiva, but another form of Siva you might end up on Vitalaloka which is destroyed in the pralaya.

I would have to disagree that Sanatan Dharma is understood and practiced all over India. Sometimes people confuse sva-dharma with sanatan-dharma and confuse Siva-bhakti with Visnu-bhakti etc. etc. According to Bhagavat Purana, Sanatan Dharma is Vishnu bhakti or Krishna bhakti. Jnana marga is not Sanatan Dharma. Karma-yoga is not Sanatan Dharma. Sanatan Dharma is the loving service of Lord Krishna. Shaktas, Shaivas, yogis and jnanis are not following Sanatan Dharma. If they follow Varnashram then they are following sva-dharma, but that is not Sanatan Dharma unless they are doing it as Vishnu bhakta and giving all the fruits of karma unto Vishnu. Sanatan Dharma is eternal constitutional duty of the soul. The eternal constitutional duty of the soul is as a servant of Krishna.

Be that as it may, it simply begs the question even more that why Narayana Maharaja is not making any plans or provisions for his many followers around the world to have their own temples and their own mission? Since the beginning of the conflict, the followers of Narayana Maharaja have been trying to promote him as the successor to Srila Prabhupada and not as a seperate acharya with his own mission. The idea has always been that somehow, someway all his followers can be accepted into greater ISKCON and be able to use ISKCON as the foundation for their own facility. Well, if ISKCON is so rotten, hopeless and corrupt then it would seem that Narayana Maharaja would be making some substantial effort to get some temples built and some centers opened so that his followers in the western world can have some support structure of their own in the way Srila Prabhupada tried to build this support structure for his followers. If ISKCON is so rotten and hopeless then why do the followers of Narayana Maharaja keep promoting him even today as the successor to Srila Prabhupada. To say he is successor to Srila Prabhupada is to say that he should be the acharya of ISKCON. We have been hearing that same song and dance for years. Why couldn't he and his followers just have avoided an attempt to take over ISKCON and make some efforts to establish their own institution? Nobody gives a damn if he becomes acharya and has his own institution. It's because his followers have been promoting him as the rightfull acharya to ISKCON for years that he has met with such animosity and resistance. Even he has promoted himself as the successor to Srila Prabhupada and in so doing has created the major portion of the bitterness and rivalry that exists today. Take your guru, build your own instutition and give up your pipe dream to take over ISKCON or become integrated into ISKCON. Then, everybody can get along a lot better.

Finally, we agree on something. I don't know how long you have been around forums like this one, but in the 5 years that I have been posting on forums I have learned that you have to be thick skinned and able to tolerate insult and abuse from others. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. We all have our opinions and many times we disagree with others on many different religious beliefs and sentiments. so, you can't get too personal and get off on personal crusades to insult or correct other people. I argue and disgree with people all the time, but I don't waste my time in trying to get too personal and attack them personally and correct them. Let's just stick to the issues and discuss and debate things without taking it to the level of personal insults and accusations. If you want to get all personal and attack and insult everyone who has a different view than yours, then you probably don't belong on forums where argument and disagreement is the principle staple of the diet.

Yeah, that is Kali-fornia where there is not a drop of rain that falls all summer. When is the big one gonna hit? Probably sooner than anyone expects. EARTHQUAKE............................. Srila Prabhupada didn't call it New Dwaraka for nothing.

Srila Prabhupada used the word "sinful" quite a bit. I think he must have been predicting my incarnation? I think the Sanskrit word that corresponds to "sin" is papa. there is definitely a concept of sin in Vaishnava philosophy. If there was no such thing as sin, I wouldn't have any purpose for living. But, as least I didn't murder the acharya. thank god for that....................

Yes, I know what you mean. But, I have a habit of playing the anti-party whenever I see Srila Prabhupada getting slighted. I have plenty of gripes with ISKCON gurus and the GBC. There are things I admire about other-than-ISKCON camps, especially I really appreciated Sridhar Maharaja. But, whenever I hear the least criticism of Srila Prabhupada I fly off the handle. I don't know why. Certainly not because I am any kind of model disciple or even a disciple at all. It's just that without Srila Prabhupada I doubt seriously that any of the Godbrothers would have accomplished what Srila Prabhupada did. Srila Prabhupada made the sacrifice to bring Krishna consciousness to the miserably fallen souls of the western world and I can't tolerate even the slightest hint of criticism that he did this wrong or he did that wrong...yada..yada..yada. I could appreciate you other camps a lot more if you didn't find it necessary to fault Srila Prabhupada in order to magnify the greatness of your gurus. It's not that I am defending my initiation or my status as a devotee. I don't really give a damn about that. I don't really know why, but when I hear somebody accuse Srila Prabhupada of bad judgement or offending his Godbrothers I just go off. I can't stand to hear some ingrate talking shit about Srila Prabhupada. If it was real life face to face I would probably start swinging lefts, rights, jabs and body slams. I know others feel the same way about their gurus, but I think Srila Prabhupada should get special recognition for actually bringing Krishna consciousness to the western world and that there should never be any criticism of him for the measures he took in trying to accomplish that mission. If these followers of the other disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur would give Srila Prabhupada the honor he has earned, I would never feel the need to utter any sort of harsh statements. Why? I don't know. I am nothing close to a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. I just can't stand to see it when he doesn't get the respect and the honor he deserves. Why? I don't know. I am not even a Hare Krishna devotee as far as I am concerned. It's a mystery to me.

Different religions and different paths lead to different rewards. I don't know where Christians go. But, in Vaishnava theology there is first level of mukti is impersonal liberation into oneness of brahman. Then, there is liberation into the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha. Vaikuntha is world of Lord Narayana. Ayodhya is the world of Lord Rama Goloka is the world of Lord Krishna. Different devotees of the Lord will attain mukti into the different planets and different realms of the different forms of the Lord. So, the Kingdom of God has different levels and different planets where the different forms of the Lord presides. The highest realm of Lord Siva is not eternal and at the time of universal pralaya everything is destroyed and Lord Siva returns to Vaikuntha to worship Lord Vishnu until the next universal creation. All the planets of Surya, Indra, Agni, Candra etc. are all destroyed at the end of time and these devas all merge back into the body of Lord Vishnu.

Well, whatever. But, in the classic days of the Gaudiya sampradaya there was a lot of culture and class and the eldermost disciple of the acharya was always given the respect as successor. This modern phenomena of when the acharya leaves then there is a free for all and everyone wants to play guru is really against proper maryada. Accepting the role as acharya was for the classic Vaishnavas something that was an honorable distinction bestowed upon the eldest, senior and most learned Vaishnava of the time. I guess the mission to take KC to the whole world requires lots of gurus, but for me I think the number of "acharyas" running around should be kept to a bare minimum and that only the very elder and distinguished Vaishnavas should be acting in that capacity. Dozens of small time acharyas running around really diminishes how sacred and significant it is to actually have a living acharya on the Earth. The dime-a-dozen guru program is a real turn off to me. I think it is a fraud and a joke and serious assault on the sacred order of the Maha Bhagavats. At this point in the movement I think it's about time some babajis started to happen and all this jet-set preacher business started to phase out. Once the Gaudiya sect gets a big following around the world somebody has to start to set down and become a real Goswami. Silk clad Swamis jet-setting around the world eating Maha plates is starting to lose it's charm. We need some bhajananandis too. Srila Prabhupada said that we can water down the milk for cheating the customer, but sooner or later it's ceases to be milk altogether. the movement needs some real ascetics. We have enough soft and spoiled Swamis living in the lap of luxury. Where are the real ascetics?

You said: In the Bhagavat Purana, Lord Siva explains that actually the Personality of Godhead is beyond the range of the Vedas. Lord Shiva is glorifying Lord Vishnu after being bewildered by Lord Vishnu in the form of Mohini murti. Siva speaks to Devi: So, even the great God Lord Siva admits that Lord Vishnu is not even known through the Vedas. Only Vishna-tattva can give Mukti. Lord Ramacandra is Vishnu-tattva so he can give mukti. Lord Siva is not Vishnu-tattva. He is Siva-tattva and only has lordship over the material universe. He cannot award mukti.

Why is it a dismal failure? ISKCON is still accomplishing more than all these Gaudiya Matha splinter groups combined. Failure? Thats a heck of an accusation from the Vultures, Jackals and insects that are feeding off of the remnants of the Lion's kill. Hey, everybody can't be the Lion! I know that. Vultures, jackals and insects all have a purpose in God's great creation.

so, giving women the right to vote helps them go back home back to Godhead? I didn't know that. What does voting have to do with a woman's spiritual welfare? Please help me here, I must have missed something.

Srila Saraswati Thakur was the mastermind behind the GBC concept and international preaching efforts. Srila Prabhupada was the only disciple that was actually able to fulfill this dream and this mission of Srila Saraswati Thakur. None of these Gaudiya Matha splinter groups have any spotless record. They all have their share of failures and f-ups. For everything that Srila Prabhupada accomlished, you would have to be a fool to not expect a fair share of residual effect. It's just hillarious to hear the cronies of the "bell-ringers" talking crap about ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada, when without Srila Prabhupada they would all still be setting around their Mathas ringing bells and waiting for some hard-working citizen to drop a coin in their collection box.

Didn't Mahaprabhu scold Sanatan Goswami for getting a little ragged and letting his whiskers grow? I think he said something about being a gentleman and needing a shave?

Manu Samhita is rules and regulations governing Varnashram Dharma. Whether you like it or not, Varnashrama Dharma was created by the Lord. Manu Samhita was passed down through oral traditions for millions of years. To say that it is 2000 years old is to buy into the modern academic views which are the products of mundane research. Women who followed Manu Samhita got elevated to heavenly planets. Your liberated modern women are becoming cats and dogs. I guess you think becoming cat and dog is better?

And the great "whiskered one" that initiates devotees all over the world and then leaves them to struggle without a temple, a support structure or any practical service is going to leave behind a fabulous legacy? The results and the reactions of this unstructured and disorganized preaching mission have yet to play out, but when it is all said and done the legacy might turn out to be quite ugly and the fame can quickly turn into infamy. As well, what is future for such institutions as Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math? Who knows how ugly and disintegrated it will become after the passing of Srila Govinda Maharaja. I think it is way too early in the game to be saying the any of the Gaudiya Matha splinter groups are going to end up that much better than ISKCON. Their time will come and the naked truth will be revealed someday. Srila Prabhupada was THE authorized incarnation to take Krishna consciousness all over the Earth. It's too late now for somebody else to make that claim because Srila Prabhupada has already done it and ISKCON shines like a great treasure chest of jewels covered in human excrement. The treasure is still there for those who are willing to dig for it.