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The Intelligent Designer

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In looking back through this long discussion, I came across many gems of note, which I hope to drag back to the surface. However, in looking for a verse in the Vedabase, I came across this one:




From this verse, it is very clear that the Supreme Lord has no material activites. It's reasonable to assume that that includes material acts of creation.


When I hear the term "Intelligent Designer", the image that comes to mind immediately is that of an old God sitting at his drafting table chuckling over His latest design for the platypus.


What is revealed in Brahma Samhita, however, is that the Lord's role in Creation is really to plant the seed into the heart of Lord Brahma, who undertakes all the "heavy lifting", so to speak.


More quotes to follow, God-willing.


Maha-Vishnu creates the mahat-tattva and provides all material vessels (ethereal and biological), vai His many representatives for those jiva-tattva's who enter His domain in their attempts to satisfy their material dreams or desires. Very intersting reading Prabhu

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Krsna describes Himself as the Intelligence of the intelligent. Brahma has no independent intelligence. It is a portion of Krsna's intelligence working as and through Lord Brahma and manifesting as this cosmic world.


When I see attractive archetecture (sp), such as many Julia Morgan structures here in Berkeley, I can appreciate the inteligence and creativity shown by Julia Morgan in her design but I also see that he talent and ability is on loan from Krsna. She is not in anyway independent of Krsna.


Some build buildings. Some build planets. Some may design Galaxies. Brahma creates the universe. But none of them are independent of Krsna. Krsna consciousness means to appreciate the role of Krsna in all things including the design of and workings of the laws of this universe.


All glories to Lord Brahma but let's remember him in relation to Krsna. If our vision stops with considering Lord Brahma the supreme designer then are we not demigod worshippers?

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I picture two kinds of faith. Blind faith and what I call sighted faith. Sighted faith is one in which we have learned to have faith in Krsna because of His bestowing a drop of divine vision to us whereby we can perceive Him within material nature to some degree. This gives rise to the sighted faith that understands that Krsna will without doubt reveal Himself more to us as we proceed. This of course can never be shown directly to another because only Krsna reveals Krsna.


If we can inspire someone to inquire into the possibility of an Intelligent Designer then we will have done our job. Of the four kinds of inquirers into the Absolute one is the curious soul.


I don't see the real difference between real science and real religion. Both would have as their objective getting to the real truth. If openess and honesty are there in the searcher the I must believe that, "he who applies himself well to one will achieve the results of both".


The problem lies when the agnostic considers himself an atheist that already "knows" there is no God and then proceeds to discover the truth of things. He has cut himself off from receiving sighted faith from Paramatma's revelations.


Krsna says in the Gita that for those who want to worship the demigods he will make their faith steady so that they may devote themselves to that particular deity. The principle here that we need to recognize that faith is directed by Krsna. Which also implies that the blind faith possessed by the atheistic scientist is also directed by Krsna in order to accomodte the atheists desire to deny God. This is why we can never force anyone to accept the existence of the Lord. it is not by force it is by making logical and attractive arguments in favor of ID so that the thoughtful scientist may open up to th possibility of god and thus receive the necessary sighted faith to rightly proceed.


The (in)famed arch atheist warrior Anthony Flew is a good example. Finally after considering the mind blowing complexity of creation for so many years while arguing against God with a fervor the knowledge had it's effect and he has become a theist.


If it can work for him it can work for all the others. It just needs to be presented thoughtfully and without fanaticism. This is why I am so happy that there are such intelligent and trained devotees like Suchandra and others that are speaking out in this arena with developed examples of how there must be an a Supreme Intelligence behind all we perceive.


Stories of the battles between the asuras and devas will only go a little ways with a very few people in the present culture of scientific thinking. We can se that Srila Prabhupada wanted to have God consciousness accepted as a science and not on sentimental religious terms. Like one so-called christian hymn goes;


Give me that old time religion...

It was good enough for pappy

So it's good enough for me.


Or something like that. You get the point. Blind faith is not enough for spreading God realization.


Very inspiring reading I love reading your posts

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Very inspiring reading I love reading your posts

I concur. Theist rocks!!




Blind faith is not enough for spreading God realization.

This is true. For distribution, it has been said, "propaganda" may be employed. Obviously, some thought and consideration must go into the creation of this propaganda. Reasonable people will be attracted by preaching based on reason and not by pompous, self-righteous brow-beating.


Of course, let us always remember that the Vaishnava's highest ideal is actually "jnana-sunya-bhakti", devotion untouched by the "pollution" of knowledge. This is the Bhakti of the Gopis.


So, while blind faith may not be so useful for distribution, when it comes to our own spiritual practices,the Lord assures us that, if we have faith (however "sighted" or "blind"), we will be protected from harm.

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Of course, let us always remember that the Vaishnava's highest ideal is actually "jnana-sunya-bhakti", devotion untouched by the "pollution" of knowledge. This is the Bhakti of the Gopis.



This can be said when we have completed our homework of having distributed the yuga-dharma to its fullest extent. Before this is reached we somehow have to enter the mud of things like Charles Darwin didn't even know what DNA was when 'On the Origin of Species' was published in 1859 and this is where evolutionary materialism is totally confused: Reproduction of the genetic material of even a monad is far too complex in order to develop by chance but reproduction is the engine driving the whole evolutionary process. "How is it that the first living beings 350,000,000 years ago already had the power of replication fully developped?" Darwin writes. "How is it that life came with this fundamentally purposive capability pre-installed?" Darwin himself admitted in 'Origin of Species' his whole theory rests on the existence of an unexplained being already in possession of reproductive powers "into which life was first breathed."

Now gradually science sequences the whole dimension of for example human genome, installed within 3 billion DNA base pairs, the central regions of each chromosome, known as centromeres, which are highly repetitive DNA sequences that are difficult to sequence using current technology.



The centromeres are millions (possibly tens of millions) of base pairs long, and for the most part these are entirely unsequenced. Second, the ends of the chromosomes, called telomeres, are also highly repetitive, and for most of the 46 chromosome ends these too are incomplete. They do not know precisely how much sequence remains before to reach the telomeres of each chromosome, but as with the centromeres, current technology does not make it easy to get there. Third, there are several loci in each individual's genome that contain members of multigene families that are difficult to disentangle with shotgun sequencing methodologies - these multigene families often encode proteins important for immune functions. It is likely that the centromeres and telomeres will remain unsequenced until new technology is developed that facilitates their sequencing. Other than these regions, there remain a few dozen gaps scattered around the genome, some of them rather large, but again there is hope that all these will be closed again in "near furture".

In summary: they claim of having completed about 92% of the genome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_pair

Most of the remaining DNA is highly repetitive and unlikely to contain genes, but they cannot truly know until they sequence all of it. Understanding the functions of all the genes and their regulation is far from complete. The roles of junk DNA, the evolution of the genome, the differences between individuals, and many other questions are still the subject of intense study by laboratories all over the world.

But still they say, no, the vedic version that all this can function requires constant supervision by an intelligent Being, has to be rejected.

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hi I am new here. I joined because I received an email from someone named ?lulu.dong about a mirror of death. My husband was a computer geek and a physicist. He was working on the idea that death was accomplished by 'mirrors" I am looking for that mirror so to speak. Intelligent would dictate an intelligent deletion or evolution. I hope this is on thread or close to it.

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hi I am new here. I joined because I received an email from someone named ?lulu.dong about a mirror of death. My husband was a computer geek and a physicist. He was working on the idea that death was accomplished by 'mirrors" I am looking for that mirror so to speak. Intelligent would dictate an intelligent deletion or evolution. I hope this is on thread or close to it.


Hi siriusss,


I am not sure I understand your question. I think it flew by over my head. Could you restate please?

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SB 11.7.23 - Although I, the Supreme Lord, can never be captured by ordinary sense perception, those situated in human life may use their intelligence and other faculties of perception to directly search for Me through both apparent and indirectly ascertained symptoms.

"apparent and indirectly ascertained symptoms." How am I to understand what is meant by apparent and indirect symptoms?


I take this as pointing to Intelligent Design.

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Please forgive me if I sound non scientific as I am only beginning to try to understand the complex questions around me. I see our creator as a continous merridian line never ending or beginning and everthing else plus or minus of that line including time itself. There was no beginning just God.

Paul (Dublin)

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Vaishnavism is based upon hearing, listening to the transcendental sound passed down through the parampara system. Hearing is therefore of overriding importance for Vaishnavas to actually see God. Seeing God through hearing.

Below an article from the Washington University about the hearing capacity of bats. Yes, bats can see clearly at night by hearing. They even can distinguish between different flying insects in total darkness or quickly fly through a forest without clashing with tree trunks. Bats echolocate by emitting calls and listening to the echoes reflected from objects in their environment and their brains producing a 3-dimensional picture out of this reflected echo. In sum if perfect seeing by hearing is possible on the material plane, why not on the spiritual plane? In this age of kali the Supreme Lord incarnated in His Holy Name, so that we can see God in the sound of His Holy Name.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare


How Little Gray Cells Process Sound: They're Really A Series Of Computers


(Adapted from materials provided by University Of Washington http://www.washington.edu/) — Hearing is a far more complicated process than once imagined. But neuro- scientists are beginning to unravel the ways individual brain cells continually perform complex computational tasks to help creatures as diverse as humans, gerbils, bats and birds distinguish what a sound is and where it is coming from.

Individual neurons, or brain cells, do not just relay information from one point to another, according to a group of researchers from across the United States who discussed new insights into the process of hearing at a symposium held last month at the Society for Neuroscience's annual meeting in New Orleans. Instead, they said, each neuron could be compared to a tiny computer that compiles information from many sources and makes a decision based on that information


"In hearing, the brain does not function as one big computer, but rather as a series of small computers working in series and in parallel. Now, for the first time, we are getting a good idea of how individual neurons work as computers," said Ellen Covey, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Washington and organizer of the symposium.


Other members of the panel were Dan Sanes, associate professor of neural science and biology at New York University; George Pollak, professor of zoology at the University of Texas, and William Spain, associate professor of neurology at the University of Washington.


In New Orleans, the researchers reported on new techniques that for the first time permit them to record and monitor low-level electrical activity in single neurons of awake animals. They also discussed a number of findings showing how neurons analyze and integrate information from different sources


Understanding the mechanisms of sound recognition in the brain and in single neurons is basic neuroscience that Covey said may permit researchers to design better processors used in hearing aids for the hearing impaired and the totally deaf. The research also has implications for improving sonar devices and creating speech recognition systems for computers.


Here are highlights of what each panelist discussed:


While the bat's awake: Covey works with the widely distributed North American big brown bat (Eptesicus fuscus) and reported on the first successful use of a technique utilizing tiny glass electrodes one micron in diameter to record very low-level, sound-evoked electrical activity in single neurons in awake bats.


The auditory system in mammals and birds initially is divided into parallel pathways so different types of information can be extracted from a complex signal, Covey explained. To fully analyze a signal or set of simultaneous signals, the results of the calculations in the different pathways must be integrated. An important center for this activity is a portion of the midbrain called the inferior colliculus, where many auditory pathways converge.


The outputs from some pathways excite the cells on which they terminate, making the cells more likely to respond to a signal. Other signals inhibit cells, making them less likely to respond to a signal. Covey said it is computations that result from the interaction between the excitatory and inhibitory inputs that ultimately tells an animal not only where a sound is coming from but also what the sound is.




Big brown bats echolocate by emitting calls and listening to the echoes reflected from objects in their environment. Echolocation calls, while higher in frequency, possess many of the characteristics of human speech. The bats' auditory pathways are similar to those of humans. Because of these similarities, it is possible that some of the same mechanisms used by bats to process echolocation sounds also are used by humans to process speech signals, she added.


Tracking moving sound: Sanes research lab developed a method for understanding how neurons respond to a sound moving into an animal's field of hearing by measuring the excitatory and inhibitory responses of individual brain cells of gerbils (Meriones unguiculatus).


Sanes unexpectedly found that when sound is moved neurons can become unusually sensitive to the new location of a sound through a process called release from inhibition. Inhibition initially decreases the responsiveness of the cell, but subsequently raises its level of excitability. Release from inhibition can last for several seconds, which by auditory standards is a long time.


Sanes said that the process not only occurs under conditions of natural sound stimulation, but also can be created artificially by applying the inhibitory neurotransmitters glycine and GABA.


The suppression of sound: Pollak's research team has been studying how animals locate a sound source by initially processing information in the brain stem, a lower region of the brain, and then sending the processed information to a series of higher regions.


He found a response similar to the so-called precedence-effect which enables humans sitting in an auditorium at a concert to hear the primary sound originating from an instrument or singer and ignore the echoes bouncing off walls and the ceiling. Without this effect, the primary sound and the echoes would be perceived as originating from different locations.


Working with Jamaican mustached bats (Pteronotus parnelli), Pollak discovered that neurons in one brain stem nucleus create a precedence-like effect or long-lasting inhibition that suppresses sounds that occur during the period of the inhibition. Thus he said, this nucleus is inhibited by the initial sound from sending any information to higher regions of the brain.


Telling the time of sound: Spain's research involves using chicken embryo cells to study how cells in the brain stem can calculate the spatial location of a sound source based on signals from an animal's two ears that are received microseconds apart.


In order to detect the very small delay in the time of arrival of a sound at both ears, neurons must be able to sense differences in arrival times within 1/2000th of a second, Spain said. Sound detected independently by each ear is turned into an electrical signal and the timing of the electrical signals are checked for coincidence. Spain and his colleagues have begun to investigate how coincidence detection is accomplished inside individual cells.


Adapted from materials provided by University Of Washington.

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  • 4 months later...

Sir Isaac Newton Believed in Intelligent Design


"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." - Sir Isaac Newton


Isacc Newton was a very devote Christian theist, alchemist and scientist who understood there is no real separation between science and God consciousness.

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  • 2 years later...

"Intelligent Design" is also the name of a book written by a French fellow who goes by the name Raël. I guess you folks must have heard about him...


His claims are similar to what has been said in the thread-starter. According to the Raëlian Movement, humankind is part of a galactic experiment. Makes for a fascinating read, imo. :P


The smiley aside, though... You never know... ;)

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Hi guys..this is more valuable post in this site.....It is more like an anti-scientific rant. The gap, i feel, is beginning to widen between the atheistic (POTENTIALLY Krsna-conscious community) and the current spiritual community. That, i think, is sad............




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good article.. both sides are discussed. let's embrace both aspects. there are few who are non-believer or have a scientafic thinking brain and there are others who attribute that behind everything that happnes, we have a guiding power above us.. and we say godly being.


in an age where exchange of thoughts is just a e-click away, it is nice to see different viewpoints. live and let live. just having only aspect of thinking would be boring and dull. we need both. diversity. let's seek perfection in being imperfect..

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