The difference (true and less true followers?) - Part 2

November 27, 2003

that is AhlAdini not ahlAdini.

AhlAdini is another name for hlAdini

November 27, 2003

Thank you, it might be that I spell it wrong.

I am not proficient in sanskrit.

Srila BV Svami says that she is not there, than it must be ahlAdini - when this is the meaning.

And this is Ok, Radha never gets out of Vrindavan, as all our acaryas said.

Only an expansion of Her goes to KurukSetra (sam-yogini Radhika).

anadi · November 27, 2003

that is AhlAdini not ahlAdini.

AhlAdini is another name for hlAdini

And what is the meaning of AhlAdini ?

How can Ahladini be another name for hladini?

Maybe hladini and Ahladini refers as adjectives to a similar object but to empasize different features.

And they can refer only to Srimati Radhika.

anadi · November 27, 2003

CONCLUSION:

Controversies arise in the VaiSNava community to clarify

important philosophical points for the benefit of all concerned.

siddhAnta baliyA citte nA kara alasa

ihä ha-ite kRSNe lAge sudRDha mAnasa

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions,

considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the

mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to Sri kRSNa. (

CC Adi lila 2.117)

I pray that the points presented herein may serve all the

members of ISKCON, which include Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja and

his followers, so that they can work together as one family to preach

the mission of Srila Prabhupäda and our previous äcäryas.

VaiSNava kRpA leSa prarthi (begging for a slight trace of the mercy

of the VaiSNavas),

TridaNDi SvAmi BhaktivedAnta AraNya

This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu.

The following article examines, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION.

For previous references see

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=61233&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

November 28, 2003

How can Ahladini be another name for hladini?

They are paryAyavAchi - synonyms and they refer to Ananda aspect of brahman

Prabhupad - Radha-krsna-pranaya-vrkitir ahladini-saktir asmat. Ahladini-sakti. Krsna, God, has got many potencies. One of the potencies is called ahladini-sakti, pleasure potency. So Krsna's consort, Lord Ramacandra's consort, they are pleasure potency, exhibited.

By the way, this shakti is present in all muktAs to different extent.

anadi · November 28, 2003

They are paryAyavAchi - synonyms and they refer to Ananda aspect of brahman

They are the same and not the same.

In tattva they are really the same, they both refer to Ananda but in rasa they are different.

Ananda in Vrindavana is different from Ananda in Mathura or Dvaraka.

The lokas in the spiritual world are rasa lokas , they differ in rasa.

Customarily, anyone who composed a song, verse, literary

composition or poem about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu first had to bring it

to Svarupa Damodara Gosvami to be heard.

svarupa-thani uttare yadi, lana, tanra mana

tabe mahaprabhu-thani karaya sravana

If passed by Svarupa Damodara Gosvami, it could be presented for

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to hear.

`rasabhasa' ha ya yadi `siddhanta-virodha,

sahite na pare prabhu, mane haya krodha

If there were a hint that transcendental mellows overlapped in a

manner contrary to the principles of the bhakti cult , Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu would not tolerate it and would become very angry.

November 28, 2003

What I was trying to say is that AhlAdini and hlAdini are synonyms and NOT antonyms.

anadi · November 28, 2003

can you identify yourself?

anadi · November 28, 2003

There was a compilation published on the Cakra website

which attempted to show that Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja'S

teachings are different from those of Çréla Prabhupäda.

The compilation that was posted on Cakra is called

“Understanding NArAyaNa MahArAja: his own words and other

primary sources”, and it offers quotes by both Srila

Prabhupada and Srila Narayana MahArAja. The following

article explains these same quotes again.

When quoting the compilation, we shall begin with the

word COMPILATION, and we will begin our own statements

with the word REFUTATION.

Material view and transcendental view

COMPILATION 1 : NArAyaNa MahArAja on A.C. BhaktivedAnta

Swami PrabhupAda and ISKCON:

NArAyaNa MahArAja , Germany: December 12, 2001:

“My SikzA-guru, nitya-lila-praviSTa oM viSNupAda Sri Srimad

BhaktivedAnta Swami MahArAja.”

NArAyaNa MahArAja, MathurA: October 24, 1999:

“We can glorify SwAmiji, BhaktivedAnta Swami MahArAja. But

those who are falling down, how can they glorify him? They cannot

glorify him, never; they are cutting. They are establishing that he

was the founder of ISKCON,

but I know that he was not founder;

he was (is) one of the members of this in guru-paramparA . It was founded

by KRSNa, and first AcArya was BrahmA, then NArada, then VyAsa.

Only he has changed the name (for oficial registration) and he has preached these things in

Western countries.”

anadi · November 30, 2003

Material view and transcendental view

In his Bhagavad-gita Preface, Srila Prabhupada writes:

“Some of them said that it is greatly fortunate for the Americans

that I have started the KRSNa consciousness movement in America.

But actually the original father of this movement is Lord KRSNa

Himself, since it was started a very long time ago, but is coming

down to human society by disciplic succession. If I have any credit

in this connection, it does not belong to me personally, but it is due

to my eternal spiritual master, His Divine Grace oM viSNupAda

paramahaMsa parivrAjakAcArya 108 Sri Srimad BhaktisiddhAnta

Sarasvati GosvAmi Mahäräja PrabhupAda.”

A pure devotee sees the thigs from the proper perspective.

December 1, 2003

***Thank you, it might be that I spell it wrong.

I am not proficient in sanskrit.

Srila BV Svami says that she is not there, than it must be ahlAdini - when this is the meaning.

And this is Ok, Radha never gets out of Vrindavan, as all our acaryas said.

Only an expansion of Her goes to KurukSetra (sam-yogini Radhika).

"When He is fighting, the AhlAdinI-Sakti is there"

As Svarupa Damodara Gosvami has explained, radha krsna -pranaya-vikеtir hladini saktir asmat (Cc. Adi 1.5). The AHLADINI-SAKTI is manifested as Radharani, but krsna and Radharani are the same, although one is potent and the other is potency.

Then if we are qualified, then some day we may be able to understand what is yugala-piriti, love between krsna and Radharani. Not so sudden. That is sahajiya. Not so sudden. We should not try to do that. First of all I must see how much I have become sarvopadhi vinirmuktam, how much I am free from the designational position. Then we shall be able. Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikrцi AHLADINI-SAKTI asmad.

Generally some professional men, they chant Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikеtir. That is not the way. You cannot understand the loving affairs of Radha and krsna without understanding the path given by the Gosvamis. If you surpass in this way, avoid the way of approaching Radha-krsna by reading Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, The Nectar of Devotion, the Teachings of Lord Caitanya-all of a sudden if you become an upstart to understand Radha-krsna love-then you’ll misunderstand. That is the way. And people, they try to understand Radha-krsna love affairs, jumping all of a sudden. This is not the way. One should be very much eager to understand. Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikеtir AHLADINI

So Radharani is not ordinary, as the sahajiyas, those who take Radha-krsna love affair very easily... No. Then you'll misunderstand. Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikеtir AHLADINI-SAKTI. It is the expansion of pleasure potency of krsna .

Radha-krsna is not ordinary. Radha krsna -pranaya-vikеtir hladini sakti. This is the manifestation of the AHLADINI-SAKTI of krsna .

Eternally They are enjoying. Radharani is enjoying the company of krsna , and krsna is enjoying. Radha krsna -pranaya vikеtir AHLADINI-SAKTI.

********

Ahladini sakti it is inner energy (Radha-Krisna) Lord Caitanya's. Expand Himself like Radha, Krisna has Radha too ( om purnam adah purnam idam ). Radha eternally with Krisna.

You understand?

"Where You - where (?) Vrindavan" Advaita Acarya.

Lord Caitanya sourse all spiritual-material world.

December 1, 2003

***anadi---He [ Srila Prabhupada ] is not in the category of nitya siddha or sadhna siddha jivas

Prabhupada: Krsna's bhakti-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus.

Bhava means Krsna consciousness fully developed. Then love. Then love. Love is actually exhibited. Then “Let me serve Krsna in this way, in that way, that way, that way.” You see? Fully engaged. This is the process. You cannot say that “Let my love be stagnant in my heart. There is no exhibition.” No. There must be exhibition. That is the symptom of love. Otherwise why Rupa Gosvami resigned from his ministership? He was a devotee from the very beginning. He is nitya-siddha, eternal devotee.

Similarly, there are other living entities in the spiritual world, they are called nitya-mukta or nitya-siddha. They never come in this material world. Just like Rupa Gosvami.

Prabhupada: That is the difference between Krsna and Arjuna. Although Arjuna is... Birth after birth, he is friend of Krsna, nitya-siddha.

These Caitanya Mahaprabhu associates, they are eternal associates. They appear somewhere... Just like Haridasa Thakura appeared somewhere in Muhammadan family, Sanatana Gosvami was found engaged in government service, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was a zamindar's son. In different places. But actually they appear to fulfill the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore they are called nitya-siddhas. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is nitya-siddha friend, eternal friend.

Pusta Krsna: (break) Prabhupada, Lord Caitanya's weapons were His associates. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's weapons were His associates.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sangopangastra-parсadam. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said, gaurangera sangi-gane, nitya-siddha kori mane: "All the associates of Lord Caitanya, they are ever liberated.” Nitya-siddha kori mane. "Anyone accepts the assistants of Lord Caitanya as ever liberated-he also becomes liberated, simply by accepting the associates of Lord Caitaya Mahaprabhu who is helping Caitanya Mahдprabhu's mission, simply by accepting this, the man who is accepting, he becomes liberated."

--------------

***The jivas are coming from the glance of Maha ViSnu in TataStha Region between the cit and the acit world, like muster seeds would pouring on a sword blade.

Some of them looking to the spiritual world, automaticly become atracted of it and the Lord fulfills their desire and endow them with the support of the hladini Sakti, and according their stayibhava go to a certain region of the spiritual sky.

***Those jivas who by looking at the acit world became attracted to it, get their desire fulfiled by the Lord of the heart who give them the suport of maha maya Sakti, and qualifies them through suitable suits (like ahankara, buddhi, mana) to acti in the acit world.

The soul makes a choice casually?

Who has looked that casually in an spiritual world and who has looked that casually in a material world?

---------------

December 1, 2003

.... kaya-vyuha-personal expansions; ....

TRANSLATION

The personal associates of the primeval Lord, Sri krsna , are His devotees, who are identical with Him. He is complete with His entourage of devotees.

....kaya-vyuha-quadruple expansions;....

TRANSLATION

They are both one and the same identity. They differ only in form. He is the first bodily expansion of krsna , and He assists in Lord krsna 's transcendental pastimes.

.....kaya-vyuha kari’-expanding Himself in different bodies; ....

TRANSLATION

Sesa Sankarsana, who holds all the planets on His head, expands Himself in different bodies to render service to Lord krsna .

....kaya-vyuha-the expansion of one’s body; ....

TRANSLATION

“The prabhava-prakasa expansions of Lord krsna are not like the expansions of the sage Saubhari. Had they been so, Narada would not have been astonished to see them.

-----------------

Everything is an expansion of Krsna's energy. As it is said, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate: the Lord has multi-energies, which are expressed in different ways. The energies are existing, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead also exists simultaneously; because everything is His energy, He is simultaneously one with everything and different from everything.

Similarly, one must purify his vision so that he can practically observe the expansion of the Absolute Truth. Such observation can take place either by the ears or by the eyes. Vedic knowledge is sabda-brahma, or transcendental potency in the form of sound vibration. Therefore, one can observe the functions of the Absolute Truth through submissive hearing of transcendental sound. Sastra-caksus. When one's consciousness becomes fully purified one can perceive the Absolute Truth with all of one's spiritualized senses.

-----------------

yasodanandana · December 1, 2003

"The soul makes a choice casually?

Who has looked that casually in an spiritual world and who has looked that casually in a material world?"

no, anadi has'nt mentioned casuality

kailasa · December 1, 2003

***"The soul makes a choice casually?

Who has looked that casually in an spiritual world and who has looked that casually in a material world?"

no, anadi has'nt mentioned casuality

Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

anadi · December 1, 2003

“The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna

consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where

Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST

opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The

training goes on, as we see in vRndävana-lila.”

( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight )

“The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” ( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26)

This mount of ... He must have at least faith in "his" Prabhupada if not in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

Is useless to present any other arguments because he doesn't WANT to understand.

yasodanandana · December 1, 2003

"Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv? "

•••you are right.. maybe this is a thing that we will understand when we will be there... the other theory (we come from goloka vrindavan) leaves the same "intellectual hole": "how can we leave goloka vrindavan for the material world?"

so "i live in goloka and i choose to go in material world"

or

"i see both material world and goloka and i choose the first" .. both these tattvas leave us in the same amazement

am i wrong?

anadi · December 1, 2003

In the pastime of falling in tataStha one doesn't deliberate about the two worlds, jiva's sat cit ananda vigraha is not manifested, that is why tataStha is also called viraja (the neutral state in which one can choose) , and both realms are very appealing and very shining. The moment that one wishes one of them, one is already there.

Of course Sri Krishna wanted also that someone comes in the material worlds, otherwise he would not do the whole arrangement.

But we are the one that volunteered, still volunteer! to be here.

December 1, 2003

***The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna

consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where

Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST

opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The

training goes on, as we see in vRndävana-lila.”

( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight )

It is about fall soul?

***“The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” ( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26)

This mount of ... He must have at least faith in "his" Prabhupada if not in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

SBT write - "soul fall from spiritual world". Srila Prabhupada write un many places too. Needs understand whole contecst. Soul was fall, because spiritual worls absolute. You undersdtand? Or not? In spiritual world no material time then falls soul WAS or WILL. No time. Soul come from place whom not time, then whewre shi come? - immortal.

All souls who has desire now in material world, you understand?

Second - all souls spiritual, souls do not stay in material world. It is illusion.

Sourse souls it is Krisna - sarva karana karanam, Maha Visnu not sourse souls.

***Is useless to present any other arguments because he doesn't WANT to understand.

I am teke for you citation SBT, may needs citation Srila Prbhupada? He is clear speak about fall souls. You not read?

December 1, 2003

"Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv? "

•••you are right.. maybe this is a thing that we will understand when we will be there... the other theory (we come from goloka vrindavan) leaves the same "intellectual hole": "how can we leave goloka vrindavan for the material world?"

Yes. It is one and too theory. Soul from Vaicuntha, soul not for impersonal brahman. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

***so "i live in goloka and i choose to go in material world"

or

"i see both material world and goloka and i choose the first" .. both these tattvas leave us in the same amazement

Yes. I am write for this reason.

December 1, 2003

***In the pastime of falling in tataStha one doesn't deliberate about the two worlds, jiva's sat cit ananda vigraha is not manifested, that is why tataStha is also called viraja (the neutral state in which one can choose) , and both realms are very appealing and very shining. The moment that one wishes one of them, one is already there.

It spiritual energy will work like material energy and soul fall in maya. Any way soul fall from brahman, brahman most high then material world.

Fall soul it is spiritual question, it is not matrial sheme. Sourse falling soul it is root material life. Then if person not take moksa he not understand this question.

Fall, now so many people fall so many times.

yasodanandana · December 1, 2003

"Fall soul it is spiritual question, it is not matrial sheme. Sourse falling soul it is root material life. Then if person not take moksa he not understand this question."

..... yes, but anadi gave good (even if for us theoretical) answers... do not oppose also because he's from Narayana Maharaja!!!!

prabhupada and iskcon too are clearly for tatasta theory, the souls who , in al little minority, fall in this world are from a condition where like at the limit of the seashore, the dry sand(maya) and the water(vaikunta) are somewhat present simultaneously

and tatasta is spiritual.... when prabhupada says that everyone comes from spiritual world and there's a "coming back" business, not a "going" one.. he says in this way to be concise, but he is right and coherent with the tatasta shakti concept

in my opinion.. (collaborate please, you are vaishnavas!!!!) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

anadi · December 1, 2003

“The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna

consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where

Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST

opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The

training goes on, as we see in vRndAvana-lila.”

( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight )

"dhairyat"

If the devotee first sees KRSNA when he was trasfered in the material univers where vRndAvana-lila goes on, it means that he had never seen Krishna before.

If he would have been in the spiritual world

and would have fallen from there

than this meeting were not declared here as the first time when the devotee sees Krishna.

All the other speculations are pure stupidity and guru drohi.

That person is a great offender, and I hope that Sri Krishna would be merciful with us and spare us with the presence of that obstinate offender.

“ The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode .”

( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26)

anadi · December 1, 2003

Dandvat pranama

prabhupada and iskcon too are clearly for tatasta theory, the souls who , in al little minority, fall in this world are from a condition where like at the limit of the seashore, the dry sand(maya) and the water(vaikunta) are somewhat present simultaneously

Yes, we go all the way back; but we cross the marginal position.

And we fall in the material world, but from the marginal position.

No jiva can be fixed in that position.

That region is spiritual, but there is no rasa there.

One should meditate on the reason of existence of this region tataStha, and why jivas are called tataStha Sakti.

They are called tataStha because they come from tataStha.

Otherwise give me a reason.

Tatashtha is not theory , Sriman Mahprabhu makes no theories, He speaks the Truth.

jivera svarupa Sakti krsnera nitya dasa

kRSNera tataStha Sakti bheda abheda prakaSa

the three aspects of svarUpa-Sakti – namely,

hlAdini, sandhini, and saMvit –

completely influence all the activities

of the cit-Sakti, jiva-Sakti, and mAyA-Sakti

December 2, 2003

In the pastime of falling in tataStha one doesn't deliberate about the two worlds, jiva's sat cit ananda vigraha is not manifested, that is why tataStha is also called viraja (the neutral state in which one can choose) , and both realms are very appealing and very shining. The moment that one wishes one of them, one is already there.

Of course Sri Krishna wanted also that someone comes in the material worlds, otherwise he would not do the whole arrangement.

But we are the one that volunteered, still volunteer! to be here.

Kindly do not ascribe motive to the Supreme Lord. We are here, because of our and only our wish, not His and this material creation is a facility given by Him for two fold purpose 1. to satisfy our wishes of material enjoyment 2. more importantly, for spiritual advancement.

He never "wanted" that some souls should come into the material world.

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