The difference (true and less true followers?) - Part 2

[Guest guest]

***He the Supreme Controler will put karma on other jivas.

Praised be the Lord, who is so merciful!

 

If soul desire, Supreme Lord create material world for DESIRE SOUL. Lord so merciful then He is present as paramatma.

 

***Oh, Lord! I am stupid!

 

Yes.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the prema-vivarta it is said:

The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead."

 

YOU write offences and lies about doctrine Srila Prabhupada.

 

It is citation Srila Prabhupada. It is all citation Srila Prabhupada.

 

Here Prabhupada don't say living entities fall from spiritual world.

 

"When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

[Guest guest]

"But in this verse the Lord also speaks of the living entity as "an eternal fragment of Myself." The fragment of God, the living entity, may fall down into the material world, but the Supreme Lord (Acyuta) never falls down.

 

You learn english, here Prabhupada say "living entity may fall down" but He doesn't say from the spiritual world.

 

You understand?

 

For stupido -

 

The fragment of God, the living entity, may fall down into the material world,

 

but the Supreme Lord (Acyuta) never falls down.

 

YOU write offences and lies about doctrine Srila Prabhupada

 

You understand?

[Guest guest]

Hey! you panimayeshi (understand)?

original position of jiva shakti is tatashta shakti

jiva svarupa means eternal form is eternal kriSna dasa!

 

All soul is tatastha and has eternal relations? Where contradictions. You understand "tatastha" means - impersonal brahman?

 

***you to say "All souls tatastha, they eternal tatastha." Kazacioc!

 

Try understand. Italiano.

 

***Home for jiva is spiritual world. Spiritul world is ETERNAL! Kazacioc! ETERNAL!

 

Uttama adhicari see material world spiritual, stupido.

 

Ok. may be you start understand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Write right - kailasa. Be respectfull for Lord Siva, Prabhu. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***you take the wrong way stupid ! you don't listen, more stupid, than go barbecue highway to hell!

 

It is big pfilosophical argument.

 

***Home eternal. Home eternal with Godhead. Godhead so much attractive, most attractive, see Godhead you forget everything else.

 

You has nice material understanding, but not has any spiritual understanding.

[Guest guest]

 

Jivas in maya anadi.

 

 

Jiva being in maya is not anadi, is not without beginning.

Beginning in maya ? Yes!

Whatever has a beginning must have and end.

And the journey in maya for every jiva will certainly have an end.

Only that the beginning cannot be traced back, but it exists.

 

First one should understand not through nyaya :

the negative way – we don’t come from the spiritual world,

but positively : originally we come from tatashta, this is beginning!

 

Than after maha pralaya the ones, who disobeying guru and Sastra remained attached to the material world go in Maha Vishnu’s body.

The desire to enjoy in the material world remained,

that means all the karmic reactions accumulated in the material world, we take them in seed form with us, and this is not the spiritual world where Maha ViSnu is, but the marginal zone between the spiritual and material.

 

By the next creation the ones that have already been in the material world they will be implanted direct in the material world,

in places according their previous activities, and this is also stated in the Sastra.

The new comers, the new jivas, they first come in tatashta and have a chance to choose, they are not direct implanted in jada jagat.

Some jivas are old customers here, and others are new comers.

Everybody has a chance to choose, he chose in the beginning and he is choosing every moment, in no way the Lord will dictate who.

 

Mahaprabhu says

ayi nanada tanuja - O son of Nanda Maharaja

kinkaram – your eternal servant

patitam – has fallen

mam viSame bhavambudau kripaya , be merciful to me, I have fallen in the dreadful ocean of material existence.

Tava . pankaja sthita – affixed to Your lotus feet

Dhuli sadrisham vicintaya - please consider me like a particle of dust

In some translation we find added “fallen as a result of my fruitive activities, which is not wrong, if we take in consideration the old customers.” Or “being averse to the Lord”, is also not wrong taking in consideration the old customers, that are here in the material world not for the first time. The one who is not averse to the Lord will get at least one of the four types of Vaikuntha liberations, otherwise he will be back!

[Guest guest]

When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they developa consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

 

"develop a consciousness of duality"

How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality, in the spiritual world?

[Guest guest]

I get some quotes for you from another website:-

 

The origin of the jiva is not the spiritual, but the material world: There is ample evidence in the Srimad Bhagavata (2.9.10):

 

 

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh

sattvam ca misram na ca kalavikramah

na yatra maya kim utapare harer

anuvrata yatra surasurarcitah

 

"In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or even mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and there is no maya (who can pull the devotee out of the spiritual world)."

 

In the Srimad Bhagavata (4.28.52) it is mentioned that the jiva was with God, but according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Sarartha-darsini commentary the jiva meant there only merged with Him as Mahavisnu during the universal dissolution. Sri Jiva Gosvami declares the same in his comment on Srimad Bhagavata, verses 4.28.54 and 64:

 

 

svasthah pradhanikavesarahitah san tad vyabhicarena purvam isvarakhyahamsabahirmukhataya nastam tirohitam smrtim janasi api kim sakhayam mam ityapi smarasi catmanam avijñatasakham ityatra purvoktam sakhyanusandhanam punarapa iti. atra punahsabdena smrtisabdena tadvismrter nasadikhandanam vivaksitam kintu anadyavrtasyapi sakhyasya svabhavikatvad anaditvam ityeva krtahanyakrtabhyagamaprasangat.

"Being svasthah means 'being free from the possession of material nature" tad vyabhicarena means 'not devoted to the swan called isvara. Because of this the memory was lost - nastam. Punar apa means 'regained the consciousness of friends' as was stated in words such as janasi kim sakhayam mam (4.28.52). Here the use of the words punah and smrtih is to indicate the disappearance or destruction of forgetfulness. But that forgetfulness is certainly beginningless although the friendship, which is also covered without beginning, is natural."

 

In the Srimad Bhagavata (6.5.11) we find: bhuh ksetram jivasamjñam yadanadi nijabandhanam, "the earth is a field known as the jiva who has been conditioned since beginningless time," and again (11.2.37): bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad isad apetasya viparyayo 'smrtih, "the apeta, or turning away from God by the jiva, is anadi, beginningless, and that also accounts for fear bhaya. Asmrti means, according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, not forgetting Krsna, but one's own spiritual nature. Viparyaya means taking something for what it isn't, like identifying oneself with the body, which one is not.

 

More evidence is provided by Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.4)

 

 

ekasyaiva mamamsasya jivasyaiva mahamate

bandho 'syavidyayanadir vidyaya ca tathetarah

Sri Krsna tells Uddhava: 'Although I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the jiva alone, which is a reflection of Mine, that bondage has existed from beginningless time and it is in relation to the jiva alone that the other state (liberation) is brought about through spiritual knowledge."

 

In the Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.7) we find: yo 'vidyaya yuk sa tu nitya-baddho vidyamayo yah sa tu nitya-muktah. "The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free," and in the Vedanta-sutra (2.1.35): na karmavibhagad iti cen nanaditvat. "If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality within the world, because everyone must have had the same karma in the beginning of creation, then that is not true, for karma is beginningless." In the Mandukya Upanisad (1.9) is the statement: bhogartham srstir ity anye kridartham iti capare, devasyaisa svabhavo 'yam aptakamasya ka sprha. "Some say that He created the world for His enjoyment and others say for His play. That is simply His nature. He is, after all, Self-satisfied - which desires has He left to fulfill?" and (1.16): anadimayaya supto yada jivah prabudhyate, ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tada - "When the living entity, who is sleeping the beginningless slumber of illusion, awakens, he realises the unborn, unsleeping, undreaming non-dual truth." [Neither of these citations are in the Mandukya Upanisad. Their source is currently unknown. - Ed.]

 

Sri Jiva Gosvami writes in his Paramatma-sandarbha (46):

 

 

tadevam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah. tatra tasam vargadvayam. eko vargo 'nadita eva bhagavadunmukhah anyas tvanadita eva bhagavatparanmukhah. svabhavatas tadiyajñanabhavat tadiyajñanabhavac ca.

 

 

"There are innumerable spirit souls and they are the marginal potency of God. There are two classes of them: one class is favorable to God from beginningless time, and the other class is turned away from God from beginningless time. The first class is naturally full of knowledge and the other is without knowledge."

 

In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Antya, 3,72-74):

 

 

prabhu kahe sab jiva mukti yabe pabe

ei to brahmanda tabe sab sunya habe

haridasa bale 'tomara yavat martye sthiti

tavat sthavara jangama sarva jivajati

 

 

 

 

 

sab mukti kari tumi vaikunthe pathaibe

suksma jive punah karma udbuddha karibe

sei jiva habe iha sthavara jangama

tahate bharibe brahmanda yena purva sama

 

Mahaprabhu said: "If all the conditioned souls would attain liberation the world would become empty." Haridasa replied: "As long as You are in this mortal world You will liberate all the mobile and immobile creatures and send them to Vaikuntha. Then You will again engage subtle (dormant, new) living entities in further fruitive activities, and these mobile and immobile living entities will fill the world up like before"

 

This is in line with Visnu-dharmottara Purana (1.81.12):

 

 

ekaikasmin nare muktim kalpe kalpe gate dvija

abhavisyajjagac chunyam kalasyader abhavatah

 

"Because time has no beginning, the world would be empty by now if only one person per kalpa had been liberated."

 

Markandeya answers (1.81.13-14):

 

 

jivasyanyasya sargena nare muktim upagate

acintyasaktir bhagavan jagat purayate sada

brahmana saha mucyante brahmalokam upagatah

srjyante ca mahakalpe tadvidhas capare janah

 

"When someone is liberated, the Supreme Lord, who has inconceivable potency, creates another jiva and and thus always keeps the world full. Those who attain Brahmaloka become liberated along with Brahma. Then, in the next kalpa, the Lord creates similar beings."

 

Sri Jiva says in the Priti-sandarbha (1):

 

 

atha jivas ca tadiyo 'pi tajjñana-samsargabhava-yuktatvena tanmayaparabhutah san natmasvarupajñanalopan mayakalpitopadhyavesac canadisamsaraduhkena sambadhyate iti paramatmasandarbhadav eva nirupitam asti. paramatmavaibhavaganane ca tattatasthasaktirupanam cidekarasanam apy anadiparatattvajñanasamsargabhavamayatadvaimukhyalabdhacchidraya tanmayayavrtasvasvarupajñananam tayaiva sattvarajastamomaye jade pradhane racitatmabhavanam jivanam samsaraduhkam ca jñapitam.

 

 

"Although the jiva is part of the Lord, he is without knowledge of Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by maya. Thus he is united with the beginningless material miseries because his knowledge of his svarupa is covered and he is absorbed in false designations. From beginningless time he is bereft of knowledge of the Supreme truth and thus he has attained the fault of aversion towards God, whose maya covers over his knowledge of his constitutional position and fills him with feelings created by maya, consisting of sattva, rajas, and tamas. This was explained in the Paramatma-sandarbha (47): tatparanmukhatva-dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah, where labdha, the attainment, must be considered without time sequence, anadi as stated above.

 

In the Bhakti-sandarbha (120) Jiva quotes from the Vasanabhasya:

 

 

mukta api prapadyante punah samsaravasanam

yady acintyamahasaktau bhagavaty aparadhinah

 

 

 

"Offenders to the Lord will again get material desires, even if they are liberated souls."

 

Here the word punah means 'again', which proves that this verse does not apply to eternally liberated souls who fall from the spiritual world. The aparadhis (offenders) mentioned here are the mayavadis that are described in Srimad Bhagavata (10.2.32): aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrtayusmadanghrayah. But this does not count for the bhaktas, as is described in the next verse (10.2.33): tatha na te madhava tavakah kvacid, bhrasyanti margat tvayi baddha-sauhrdah. Srila Jiva Gosvami comments (Bhakti-sandarbha, 120): yatha purve arudhaparamapadatvavasthato 'pi bhrasyanti, tatha tavaka margat sadhanavasthato 'pi na bhrasyanti, kimuta mrgyat tvatta ityarthah. Mayavadis fall down even from the stage of perfection, but even in the stage of sadhana Your devotees do not fall down, what to speak of after attaining You?"

 

According to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (3.7.10): tatra bhagavatah prsthasthitaya anadyavidyaya tamahsvarupaya anadivaimukhyarupabhagavatprstha-sthanam jivanam jñanam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti. "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered."

 

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (10.87.32) also shows no jivas that have fallen from the spiritual world:

 

 

te ca meghopamaya avidyaya avrta baddhajiva eke anye bhaktimajjñanena tadavaranonmukta muktajivah anye kevalaya pradhanibhutaya va bhaktya tadavaranonmocitaprapitacidanandamayabhajanopayogisarirah siddhabhakta anye avidyayogarahita eva nityaparsada iti caturvidhah

 

 

"There are four types of jivas: 1. baddha - those under the influence of the avidya potency. 2. mukta - those liberated from the covering of avidya through bhakti, but who have not yet attained a spiritual body. These are also called jivanmuktas or liberated while living in the material body. 3. siddha - those who have attained a siddha-deha on the strength of bhakti. These are called baddha-muktas or those liberated after being in bondage. 4. nitya-parsadas - those eternally free from contact with ignorance. They never become conditioned, and are also called nitya-siddhas or nitya-muktas."

 

In his comment on Bhagavad-gita (13.20) Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti declares that the conditioning of the conditioned souls is beginningless: mayajivayor api macchaktitvena anaditvat tayoh samsleso 'py anadir iti bhavah. "Illusion and the conditioned souls are both My energies. They are both beginningless and they have been interconnected since beginningless time as well." The word dvesa in Bhagavad-gita (7.27) does not mean envy of Krsna, for you cannot be envious of someone you don't know.

 

In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta Sarupa calls himself a newcomer, nutna (2.6.359): dure 'stu tavad varteyam tatra nityanivasinam, na tisthed anusandhanam nutnanam madrsam api, and later (2.6.366): tallokasya svabhavo 'yam krsnasangam vinapi yat, bhavet tatraiva tisthasa na cikirsa ca kasyacit. "Nobody desires to leave Goloka."

 

Assuming that previously fallen jivas who return to the spiritual world are superior to those who have stayed, because they are shocked by their experience, is not just a speculation, but also an offence to the nitya-muktas. This presupposes that it is better to fall down than to stay and that the 'returners' can anyway remember their ordeal in the material world when they return. That would make devotion out of fear of punishment greater than spontaneous loving devotion, and would make the spiritual world into a concentration-camp. Regarding free will, this is gradually given up in the course of surrender. A siddha-bhakta will never misuse this free will because his surrender is irreversible. When the sadhana-siddha jiva attains the spiritual world he remembers nothing of the material world, for his subtle body has been dissolved through the transcendental process of bhakti.

 

Regarding the fall of Jaya and Vijaya: The feeling of enmity they acquired for the Lord was not because of the Kumaras' curse, but by the will of the Lord. Even so, the Lord did not consider them His enemies. He just wanted to enjoy fighting with them. One should not think that Jaya and Vijaya chose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could finish the curse quickly, because great devotees like them do not desire even salokya mukti without bhakti. And with bhakti they are willing even to go to hell (Bhag. 3.15.48: natyantikam viganayanty ...) They wanted to please the Lord by fighting with Him, but they did not literally choose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could give pleasure to Him. Such a desire is undevotional. Srila Jiva Gosvami further says that their inimical feelings were not real but feigned (abhasa). They entered into demoniac bodies but remained untouched within.

 

As far as Citraketu is concerned, although he offended mother Parvati, he did not fall into material life. Even in a demon's body, as Vrtrasura, he recited wonderful prayers to the Lord.

 

In conclusion: there is no scriptural evidence for the jivas' falling from the spiritual sky. It is not supported by the acaryas, not by our acaryas, nor by those of any other sampradaya. The spiritual world would not be Vaikuntha, the fearless abode, nor would it be free from maya

 

[Guest guest]

jiva is tatastha. there is no separate tatastha region

[Guest guest]

***there is no scriptural evidence for the jivas' falling from the spiritual sky

 

I am gibe evidevce from SB, CC, Prema vivarta, SBT, SP. But it is need spiritual qualification for understanding.

[Guest guest]

***"There are innumerable spirit souls and they are the marginal potency of God. There are two classes of them: one class is favorable to God from beginningless time, and the other class is turned away from God from beginningless time. The first class is naturally full of knowledge and the other is without knowledge."

 

Yes, tatastha it is ALL souls. It is big scolars do not know this.

[Guest guest]

***The origin of the jiva is not the spiritual, but the material world:

 

Ooo it is new pfilosophi. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

There is ample evidence in the Srimad Bhagavata (2.9.10):

 

It is not evidence for this question. Bibli take evidence fall soul. SB, CC, SBT, SP give DIRECT evidence.

 

Try, try, search "evidence". /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

***In the Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.7) we find: yo 'vidyaya yuk sa tu nitya-baddho

 

O, nitya-baddho??? /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

Nitya - eternal?

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif O it is mistakes! iT IS PFILOSOPHY FOR BEGINNERS.

 

***nitya-baddho vidyamayo yah sa tu nitya-muktah. "The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free,"

 

Oh, me God, ewerybody who is born(?) in material world ( it is alone anadi born) eternally stay in material world.

 

I am has citation - "The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free,"

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

They in this manner "understand" all pfilosophi.

 

look, free circus.

[Guest guest]

Hey, siva Prabhu, look, this boys will be stay eternal in material world.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

 

I get some quotes for you from another website:-

 

The origin of the jiva is not the spiritual, but the material world: There is ample evidence in the Srimad Bhagavata (2.9.10):

 

 

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh

sattvam ca misram na ca kalavikramah

na yatra maya kim utapare harer

anuvrata yatra surasurarcitah

 

"In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or even mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and there is no maya (who can pull the devotee out of the spiritual world)."

[/qoute]

 

In this verse we find

that the material modes of nature are not present,

and everything is perfect,

no kind of imperfection may occur

in the spiritual world.

 

This verse is the evidence that nothing can make jiva fall from the spiritual world. Because the spiritual world is perfect.

 

Here there is nothing said about the origin of the jiva.

 

Please elaborate and explain how do you come to the conclusion that the origin of the jiva is the material world, using the above qoute from the SB as a starting point.

[anadi 0]

In the Srimad Bhagavata (4.28.52) it is mentioned that the jiva was with God, but according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Sarartha-darsini commentary the jiva meant there only merged with Him as Mahavisnu during the universal dissolution. Sri Jiva Gosvami declares the same in his comment on Srimad Bhagavata, verses 4.28.54 and 64:

 

 

svasthah pradhanikavesarahitah san tad vyabhicarena purvam isvarakhyahamsabahirmukhataya nastam tirohitam smrtim janasi api kim sakhayam mam ityapi smarasi catmanam avijñatasakham ityatra purvoktam sakhyanusandhanam punarapa iti. atra punahsabdena smrtisabdena tadvismrter nasadikhandanam vivaksitam kintu anadyavrtasyapi sakhyasya svabhavikatvad anaditvam ityeva krtahanyakrtabhyagamaprasangat.

"Being svasthah means 'being free from the possession of material nature" tad vyabhicarena means 'not devoted to the swan called isvara. Because of this the memory was lost - nastam. Punar apa means 'regained the consciousness of friends' as was stated in words such as janasi kim sakhayam mam (4.28.52). Here the use of the words punah and smrtih is to indicate the disappearance or destruction of forgetfulness. But that forgetfulness is certainly beginningless although the friendship, which is also covered without beginning, is natural."

 

 

As long as jiva comes from Maha ViSnu, it is clear that jiva was with God, but this expansion of God doesn't have any personal relations with the jivas.

The mater of fact karana jala, the place of Maha ViSnu, is the marginal position, separating the material world from the spiritual world.

This karana jala is also called the viraja river.

This viraja river is Suddha sattva, but there is no samvit (no relations), and no hladini Sakti there.

How do you come to the conclusion that jiva COMES from the material world when it is said that Maha ViSnu was with him previoiusly?

[anadi 0]

In the Srimad Bhagavata (6.5.11) we find: bhuh ksetram jivasamjñam yadanadi nijabandhanam, "the earth is a field known as the jiva who has been conditioned since beginningless time,"

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

bhuh — the earth; ksetram — the field of activities; jiva-samjñam — the designation of the spiritual living being who is bound by different results of activity; yat — which; anAdi — existing since time immemorial ; nija-bandhanam — causing his own bondage; adrStvA; — without seeing; tasya — of this; nirvAnam — the cessation; kim — what benefit; asat-karmabhih; — with temporary fruitive activities; bhavet — there can be.

 

TRANSLATION

[The HaryaSvas understood the meaning of NArada's words as follows.] The word "bhuh;" ["the earth"] refers to the field of activities. The material body, which is a result of the living being's actions, is his field of activities, and it gives him false designations. Since time immemorial, he has received various types of material bodies, which are the roots of bondage to the material world. If one foolishly engages in temporary fruitive activities and does not look toward the cessation of this bondage, what will be the benefit of his actions?

 

Please look at the translation, the word <font color="red"> anAdi in this context has not the meaning beginingless, </font color>but time without memory. Time of falling in the mat. world, that due to repeated creations and distructions of the mat. worlds, cannot be determined.

 

The second fals translation is that you identify the earth as a field known as jiva.

 

This has nothing to do with jiva having as origin the mat. world.

[anadi 0]

brAhmanNahuvAca — the learned brAhmana said; kA — who; tvam — you; kasya — whose; asi — are you; kah; — who; vA — or; ayam — this man; Saynah — lying down; yasya — for whom; Socasi — you are lamenting; <font color="red"> jAnAsi kim — do you know; sakhAyam — friend; mAm — Me; yena — with whom; agre — formerly; vicacartha — you consulted; ha — certainly.

</font color>

 

The brAhmana inquired as follows: Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man lying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don't you recognize Me? I am your <font color="red"> eternal friend</font color> . You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.

 

 

Purport:

<font color="blue"> The Supersoul has always been ready to help the living entity, even before the creation of this material world. It is therefore stated here: yenAgre vicacartha. The word agre means "before the creation." Thus the Supersoul has been accompanying the living entity since before the creation.</font color>

 

What is the meaning "before this creation"?

The Supersoul is a feature of the Lord that can be found only in the material world.

So, He is accompanying us not only in this creation, but always, when the mat world is created as long we are not liberated.

Another meaning is that Maha ViSnu expanded Himself as the Supersoul, which means that before the creation we were with Maha ViSnu, whose abode is the marginal zone between the mat and the spiritual world.

 

The second problem is that <font color="red"> the word eternal </font color> which would make us to think that we stay eternally with the Supersoul, which is not in the spiritual world, but only in the material world, cannot be found in the sanskrit text.

[theist 1]

 

When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they developa consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

 

"develop a consciousness of duality"

How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality, in the spiritual world?

 

 

From within yourself.

 

A man is sitting in a room with others. He begins to daydream about being in a celestial pond with 20 heavenly damsels.

 

So I wonder where he is really,in the room or in the dream? The dream is not in the room to be experienced by others. They don't see the celestial pond or the damsels, yet he is in the room dreaming so intently he has forgotten his real surroundings.

 

Ever hear the common phrase "fell into a dream"?

 

[theist 1]

 

jiva is tatastha. there is no separate tatastha region

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Please elaborate and explain how do you come to the conclusion that the origin of the jiva is the material world, using the above qoute from the SB as a starting point.

 

 

 

According to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (3.7.10): tatra bhagavatah prsthasthitaya anadyavidyaya tamahsvarupaya anadivaimukhyarupabhagavatprstha-sthanam jivanam jñanam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti. "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered."

[Guest guest]

 

How do you come to the conclusion that jiva COMES from the material world when it is said that Maha ViSnu was with him previoiusly?

 

 

 

Jivas in Maha Vishnu are those who are not developed (suksma i.e from some previous universe and with lot of heavy karma) or those who are in material world in previous creation and go into Maha Vishnu when last pralaya occur. All these come into material world because all, in previous creation or suksma, both have karma because of beginningless time.

 

in the Vedanta-sutra (2.1.35): na karmavibhagad iti cen nanaditvat. "If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality within the world, because everyone must have had the same karma in the beginning of creation, then that is not true, for karma is beginningless."

[Guest guest]

 

What is the meaning "before this creation"?

 

 

 

No beginning of .... -> creation -> destruction -> creation -> destruction -> creation -> ....

 

so no contradiction in supersoul with jiva "before creation".

[Guest guest]

 

So I wonder where he is really,in the room or in the dream? The dream is not in the room to be experienced by others. They don't see the celestial pond or the damsels, yet he is in the room dreaming so intently he has forgotten his real surroundings.

 

 

 

material world unreal etc. mayavadi. maya take capture heart of pure devotee in spiritual world.

[anadi 0]

In reply to:

 

When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they developa consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

 

"develop a consciousness of duality"

<font color="red"> How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality</font color>, in the spiritual world?

 

 

<font color="blue"> From within yourself.</font color>

 

 

 

 

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh

sattvam ca misram na ca kalavikramah

na yatra maya kim utapare harer

anuvrata yatra surasurarcitah

 

"In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or even mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and there is no maya (who can pull the devotee out of the spiritual world)."

 

<font color="red"> Only if one is pure can be in the spiritual world.</font color>

 

1.To be in the spiritual world you must be pure (no duality).

2.The spiritual world is in itself pure (no duality)

 

Where could the imperfection of duality come from?

 

In the above verse we find that <font color="red"> the material modes of nature are not present</font color> , how can the duality of the material world have any influence on the pure <font color="blue"> sadhana siddha</font color> or nitya siddha jiva.

 

 

[anadi 0]

In reply to:

 

 

When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they developa consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

 

"develop a consciousness of duality"

<font color="blue"> How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality</font color>, in the spiritual world?

 

 

 

<font color="blue"> From within yourself.</font color>

 

 

 

1.Beeing in the spiritual world

2.Where everything is pure (without the duality)

3.If the duality whould come from yourself

4.than you are the source of duality (maya)

 

<font color="red"> This could be a future conclusion of "the proponents" of "jiva is falling from the spiritual world".</font color>

Actually in a subtle way they pretend this even now.

It might be just another symptom that they still are very self centered, thinking themselves the middle of the problem.