Innovation and its limits in Gaudiya Vaishnavism

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by stonehearted:

Stone: A devotee who lives here and who also took shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaj 20 years ago told me that,of the devotees who came to hear from Maharaj, those who listened best included many of Siddha's followers from Australia and NZ.

 

It is certainly a shame that we end up losing the company of old friends when we choose to associate more closely with one group. The same thing has happened in my life. I wonder if we can find ways to minimize this occurence. Any ideas?

The first thing I did when I read your post was scratch my head and that's what I've bin doing for 18 years since I left. They shut the door on us, what can I do prabhu? I see my beloved Master as the Guardian of the whole Gaurdiya families devotion. How can I go where his siksa is not welcome.

The difficulty is this, that with every splinter group under the Gaudiya umbrella everyone claims that anyone is welcome to come to their kirtan, just don't bring your teachings because it may upset the faith of those who are aspiring to follow that line, so how does one separate us from our heart and soul, our master, it is akin to saying to Valaya you can come but don't talk about Radharani. For me Guru Maharaj s' vani is my everything.

I find this kind of attitude really divides us from the rest of the environment. Altho it's suppose to be non-sectarian when you get down to it, it's you do it our way or we don't want you. It's hard enough giving KC to the rest of the world without all these seperate factions broadcasting There's no other way, there's no other way, there's no other way, but ours.

 

This is my understanding of how harmony and unity prevails From His Divine Grace SSM.

The only origin of fear is lack of harmony. Fear is born through disappointment resulting from lack of harmony. If that does not exist, then there is no place for fear. “Undesirability” is represented in sanskrit as “apprehension” or “fear”, and is regarded as something secondary to the Absolute. But how does it reach and become transformed into perfection? If we can introduce many interests into one common interest then there is harmony, no fear, and all is perfect.

At present we are suffering from the mania of separate interest, only because we have deviated from our common master, our common guardian, have we come to suffer the disease of apprehension. If one master is common to all then no apprehension can arise, we will feel true unity amongst ourselves. If we fall on the ground, then with the help of the same ground we can again stand. So forgetfulness of our guardian is the cause of all the disastrous situations in which we find ourselves. The only way to get out of that disaster is to be reinstated in the idea of common guardianship and that is to be affected by the true sadhus who have not deviated from God-consciousness. With their help we have to appeal to the all-controlling agency, then we can be reinstated in that echelon where we have our master under whose holy feet we are to take shelter. If we can accept this, harmony will again be installed in our lives. So we are always to be conscious of our guardian, the highest harmoniser, and that is true God consciousness.

 

There's a far reaching reason why Srila Swami Maharaj (Prabhupad) directed all his disciples to Srila Sridhara Maharaj for further guidance and direction and some have caught that, while others just totally reject it, they won't even consider it and this is where you find many differences from Iskcon and others to Paramadwaiti Maharaj, Tripurari Maharaj, Narasingha Maharaj, etc Then we have Ashram Maharaj (mexican) Janardan Maharaj, Giri Maharaj, Sudir Maharaj all strong preachers who have caught SSM's vani from another perspective.It's all in how one hears and acts on the words of our Gurudev and oftentimes we all hear with slight variations. So who can bring them all into the one Kirtan, where there is true affection and respect all round for each others contribution to the centre. Does anyone really want that or would they all just as soon do it their own way and take their followers in that direction with them?

Kindly convey my regards to V.M.Prabhu.

In the sevice of the Vaisnavas

dasanudas

 

[JRdd]

I cried reading your post, Mr das. You expressed the tragedy and the truth so exactly. then there are those of us, like myself, who have Srila Prabhupada as my center, and who thanks to you have now had much exposure to your wonderful Sri Guru, and I never could bear--and now bear even less--divisiveness. I find myself delighting in the association of other disciples and lovers of my diksa guru, but too often, in the company of some, also a hesitance in bringing up the words of other great acaryas in our line for fear of inviting offense. So I too am an outsider of sorts, rarely finding that place where I can openly, freely say whatever I want.

 

However I have been much encouraged on my visits to Berkeley temple, where I have been grradaully getting to know the devotees better, and I delight now in telling you that i noticed a genuine appreciation of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Devotees were speaking spontaneously about him, quoting things he had said, in idfferent instances, and one couple I knew expressed regret over not having read more of him earlier on. I think this temple is unusual, however, in so many ways. It is a very very special temple. With many humble joyful souls, whose hearts are open.

 

Thanks for continuing to share your thoughts here and the sublime words of your Guru Maharaja, who is also my teacher.

 

ys, Jayaradhe

[Maitreya]

Bdas,the following is very clear to me.I believe we can be innovative within the perimeters given below.

 

 

From letter to Tripurari:

But the money collected using this card must be sent to India where we are actually feeding people. If we simply speak nicely to a person and try sincerely to get him to take the book he'll take it. Why should we adopt unfair means? We should not do anything which will create a bad impression or make us unpopular. People are after these books, they are hankering for them. We don't need to take cheating method. I never had to use any cheating method when I first began. I simply presented the real thing.

Basically and practically speaking everything that is done sincerely for Krishna's satisfaction is perfect. But we have to be very very careful in our dealings with others so that they will not take the wrong view.

[BDas]

We cannot simply be line-quoters without common sense consideration of all the words and siddhanta of our Guru Varga.

 

This is what Bhaktivinodes "essence seeking" Vaisnavism is all about.

 

Anyone can take a line from Prabhupad and stand by it without thinking.

 

"Don’t take how he is selling, but he’s giving the book to that person and he’s paying something and that is good."

 

Without due consideration of the overall teachings of Prabhupad this line says it does not matter how books are sold. And this conversation took place before the letters posted about food relief money.

 

As we must take due consideration of Prabhupads words and spirit on whole we should also consider the spirit and words of our Gaudiya line as a whole.

 

Indeed I believe it is very difficult to grasp the essence of the Bhaktivedanta purports and letters without due consideration of the purports of the predicessor acharyas.

 

Yet some devotees still maintain we should not even read the books of the predecessor acharyas. BDas

 

 

 

[dasanudas]

Dear Jayaradhe Prabhu,

Prabhupad and Guru Maharaj are like Radha And Krsna I could'nt see one without the other. It is always heartening to hear devotees discover the treasure house that is Srila Gurudev. Better late than never, because a very holy arrangement will happen by the grace of Guru and Gauranga to all those who appreciate the united glory of these two mahatmas. May you not only have sweet realities of them in your sleep, but may their presence blaze in your heart in your every waking moment.

Jaya Guru deva

Jaya Prabhupada

Jaya Guru Deva

Jaya Prabhupada

Whatever you conceive as possible IS!

Our reality is in our consciouness.

[BDas]

Dear Das and all,

 

Last year there was a GBC sub-commitee to study lifting the ban and introducing the teachings and books of Sridhar Maharaja in Iskcon.

 

The commitee was headed by Bir Krishna Swami and came to the conclusion after discussing with some leaders of the SM groups that the GBC should lift the ban and make an effort to bring back SM followers to the Iskcon fold.

 

One important point that discussed was the idea that SM was responsible for introducing the zonal acharya system into iskcon. This was alleged by GBC members especially TKG who wrote as such in his thesis manifesto. (Available from his website)

 

After study of the facts the subcomitee decided this was not the case but rather an extrapolation on what SM said about each acharya having a headquarters in the same way the six goswamis each had their own headquarters in Vrndavana.

 

The GBC used this statement as an excuse for the zonal system that SM went on record against. It was a talk on the zonal system that brought forth SM famous words on "free flow of faith, and faith is above the law and cannot be legislated."

 

Anyway I have much of the correspondence on this subcomitee and will release it after the next GBC meeting.

 

But dont hold your breath and expect any change. Iskcon seems to be back in the trenches because of the new influx of multiple Gaudiya Math gurus preaching around the globe.

 

They should consider SM words on this issue:

 

"In KC if you give position or recognise the position of others you will gain position.

 

On the other hand if you try to hold on to your position by denying the position of others than you will lose your position."

 

Hare Krishna, Brahma

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by BDas:

Dear Das and all,

 

 

"In KC if you give position or recognise the position of others you will gain position.

 

On the other hand if you try to hold on to your position by denying the position of others than you will lose your position."

 

 

Another gem from Sridhar Maharaja that we can take to the eternal bank.

 

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by BDas:

I liked Siddha he gave me my first set of Jappa beads when I came to the Pitts temple.

 

They were some kind of blue Hawaiian seeds strung together. He called them Radha's tears. Anyone know what they were?

 

Job's tears. That was standard in his Krishna Yoga Community.

[talasiga]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Radha's tears?! WOW! Sure would like a set of those, even a short mala would do...valaya

 

These cannot be counted,

strung up together or

put in one's pocket

 

 

.

.

.

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

[it is certainly a shame that we end up losing the company of old friends when we choose to associate more closely with one group. The same thing has happened in my life. I wonder if we can find ways to minimize this occurence. Any ideas?

The first thing I did when I read your post was scratch my head and that's what I've bin doing for 18 years since I left. They shut the door on us, what can I do prabhu?

 

Stoney: I hear ya, prabhu. I've heard that when devotees come to their programs, the newer followers are warned away. And while many of the devotees on this island get together for kirtan, katha, and prasad, Siddha's folks remain aloof, preferring their own programs and company. When I went last week, I was treated well, perhaps largely because the leading devotees are old friends and see me as a non-threat. At least so far.

 

And I certainly understand the difficulty you experience in company that doesn't respect Srila Sridhar Maharaj. I'm quite happy, so far, to be living here where I don't have to deal with that sort of exclusive mentality.

 

 

Dasanudas: So who can bring them all into the one Kirtan, where there is true affection and respect all round for each others contribution to the centre. Does anyone really want that or would they all just as soon do it their own way and take their followers in that direction with them?

 

Stone: I sure can't speak for everyone, but I do remeber Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's admonition that only the kirtan that includes all can really be called sankirtan. I would like a world in which devotees can serve according to their understanding and capacity and come together on certain occasions for big kirtans and sharing the infinite variety of ways to serve Krishna.

 

And I have stories . . .

 

Kindly convey my regards to V.M.Prabhu.

 

Would he recognize you as dasanudas? I just saw him last night. BTW, he and some of the Golden Volcano devotees also attend the Sunday programs Siddha's devotees have. VM had great respect and affection for Tusta Krishna.

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by talasiga:

These cannot be counted,

strung up together or

put in one's pocket

 

 

.

.

.

 

 

Prospecting for

Paramahamsas

Pearls from

Prem Serova

 

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by BDas:

Dear Das and all,

 

Last year there was a GBC sub-commitee to study lifting the ban and introducing the teachings and books of Sridhar Maharaja in Iskcon.

 

The commitee was headed by Bir Krishna Swami and came to the conclusion after discussing with some leaders of the SM groups that the GBC should lift the ban and make an effort to bring back SM followers to the Iskcon fold.

 

As someone who very recently associated with an ISKCON center, I want to echo Brahma's warning not hold our breaths while waiting for the GBC to change their policy. I've heard about the meetings and asked Narasingha Maharaj about them. He seemed hopeful but not too optimistic.

[dasanudas]

Stoney: I hear ya, prabhu. I've heard that when devotees come to their programs, the newer followers are warned away. And while many of the devotees on this island get together for kirtan, katha, and prasad, Siddha's folks remain aloof, preferring their own programs and company. When I went last week, I was treated well, perhaps largely because the leading devotees are old friends and see me as a non-threat. At least so far.

 

And I certainly understand the difficulty you experience in company that doesn't respect Srila Sridhar Maharaj. I'm quite happy, so far, to be living here where I don't have to deal with that sort of exclusive mentality.

 

 

Das:In Mahaprabhus Maha sankirtan at Ratha Yatra Hundreds of thousands sing an dance together simultaneously glorifying in one voice and many different tunes. I love the infinite variety but if it keeps me from the rest of my family tree, what am I doing it for to start my own garden that doesn't recognize any other garden in the nieghbourhood. Whenever I used to stay with Srila Guru Maharaj I saw so many godbrothers, relatives nephews and neices all come and happily listen and chant together, he likewise used to visit his Godbrethren untill his body became too old to travel distance.

If that's the way they wish to go, so be it, it's all too mysterious for my simple soul.

My nature is to see open hearted affectionate dealings all round. Giving Honor

will join us together dishonor will tear us apart.

 

Stone: I sure can't speak for everyone, but I do remeber Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's admonition that only the kirtan that includes all can really be called sankirtan. I would like a world in which devotees can serve according to their understanding and capacity and come together on certain occasions for big kirtans and sharing the infinite variety of ways to serve Krishna.

 

Ditto on that prabhu

 

And I have stories . . .

 

Das:I'm sure you do, as do we all, feel free to unfold your heart accordingly, as the occasion presents itself.

 

Congratulations on 30 years of wedded bliss You must have a Rosehearted partner, my dandavats to you both,

 

Kindly convey my regards to V.M.Prabhu.

 

Would he recognize you as dasanudas? I just saw him last night. BTW, he and some of the Golden Volcano devotees also attend the Sunday programs Siddha's devotees have. VM had great respect and affection for Tusta Krishna.

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by BDas:

Dear Das and all,

 

 

They should consider SM words on this issue:

 

"In KC if you give position or recognise the position of others you will gain position.

 

On the other hand if you try to hold on to your position by denying the position of others than you will lose your position."

 

Hare Krishna, Brahma

Hmmm sounds like Guru Maharaj is on trial in the GBC's Supreme court. It's always been a case of cutting off the very head that can direct the body, but without strong and honorable leadership how will the body know what to do?

It all still continues to function, but not so much progress. Do any of those outside even wish to be reinstated. It seems most have established their seperate identities on their own strength. Still, just to have a co-operative framework in the Vaisnava community would be progressive, a good start.

 

 

[JRdd]

At Radhastami and other recent celebrations at the temple, there were devotees visiting from outlying areas, and from just about every "camp". I didn't really think about that until this conversation came up, that is how nice that temple is, and the kirtans really are ectatic. Had a physically hard time keeping up with it all. No one seems so bothered about factions, at least that was my impression but I don't live there all the time.

 

JR

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by JRdd:

At Radhastami and other recent celebrations at the temple, there were devotees visiting from outlying areas, and from just about every "camp". I didn't really think about that until this conversation came up, that is how nice that temple is, and the kirtans really are ectatic. Had a physically hard time keeping up with it all. No one seems so bothered about factions, at least that was my impression but I don't live there all the time.

 

JR

Actually we shared Radhastami in an intimate little sanga with some Prabhupad- Gaur Govinda Maharaj- Narayan Maharaj- Srila Sridhara Maharaj- Govinda Maharaj disciples and everything went along quite happily come to think of it.

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Prospecting for

Paramahamsas

Pearls from

Prem Serova

 

Probably.

Only an Ozzie

or a Kiwi would write

like this.....

 

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by talasiga:

Probably.

Only an Ozzie

or a Kiwi would write

like this.....

 

 

In the pursuit of excellence

I received a BA in

Illiteracy

 

 

 

[dasanudas]

What I'm really trying to say is

Whatever you think it's

more than that.

 

[stonehearted]

 

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Do any of those outside even wish to be reinstated. It seems most have established their seperate identities on their own strength. Still, just to have a co-operative framework in the Vaisnava community would be progressive, a good start.

 

Stonehearted: Actually, those I've heard from have expressed no desire to be part of ISKCON, just as you've said. They have good reasons for staying separate; still, they would like to see what I've called the culture of vaishnava aparadha die so there can be more cooperation. Sounds good to me, too.

 

Babhru

[BDas]

No one I know wants to rejoin Iskcon. But it is more the idea of free association and free flow of faith that is attractive.

 

And I think it would be good for all to find Sri Guru and His Grace for sale in the Iskcon bookstores.

 

It has now been twenty years since the followers of Sridhar Maharaja were

forced out of Iskcon. I would have thought that Iskcon would have a more open policy by now.

 

Free association is necessary for the exchange of ideas and flow of siksa.

 

Of course an open door policy can be abused by fanatics from any group. And it is agression from all sides that closed doors from Siddhas group to Iskcon and Gaudiya Math.

 

Here in SF there is a small Siddha group. We have gone to their Sunday program but they won't come to ours on Saturday.

 

"Just not our cup of tea," the man said.

 

Well OK, but I think that because of this "cup of tea" policy they are very much behind when it comes to siddhanta.

 

But I have to say they were nice people and quite dedicated. They go out in the streets almost every day for guitar kirtan and invitation distribution from a small book table. ( The non-aggresive approach.)

 

When I suggested we get together for a big sankirtan with a large group of devotees they declined.

 

"We don't do that, he said. We just chant in our own small group but you are welcome to come sometime but don't bring a lot of people with you. And no drums or kartals."

 

OK again, every group has its own style.

 

But am I missing something here. Is this the mindset of the whole Siddha group or just my local branch? Hare Krishna, Brahma

 

 

[valaya]

Brahma das:

Free association is necessary for the exchange of ideas and flow of siksa.

 

Exactly, and siksa has always been most important in our parampara. Perhaps the threat is not simply the potential loss of followers to other groups, but also the possibility some may actually become self-realized!

 

P.S. Replied to Siddhaswarupananda questions on the other thread I started about my visit to his group here in Toronto, Canada. RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-19-2001).]

[valaya]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Actually we shared Radhastami in an intimate little sanga with some Prabhupad- Gaur Govinda Maharaj- Narayan Maharaj- Srila Sridhara Maharaj- Govinda Maharaj disciples and everything went along quite happily come to think of it.

 

We all come together in Radhika, one way or another, as we are part and parcel of the Internal Potency. Srila Narayan Maharaja recently gave a lecture (sorry, can't find it) about how different factions exist in Vraja only while Sri Krsna is present. Otherwise, everyone is united around Sri Radha trying to keep Her alive, since She is experiencing such intense separation.

 

Lord Caitanya appeared in the mood of Srimati Radharani undergoing separation after Krsna had left Vrndavan. This is evidenced in the significance of Rathayatra--ever noticed how we seem to come together from far and wide at that special time? Thus we must all unite in support of Her feelings of separation!

 

The key is to merge emotionally with Swamini-Kisori, knowing our tears and feelings to be Hers. That way our infinitesimal selves become one with Her infinite Self, strengthening Her by our empathy. In these efforts the Holy Name is absolutely essential, as we know, both in private japa and group chanting.

 

Someone once told me that we cannot force others to love us, but they are equally unable to prevent us from loving them. Each of us can practice this love secretly if need be, understanding that all are part and parcel of our dearmost Sri Radhika. Let Her tears in separation be our impetus...

 

Thinking and feeling in this way, even a little, how can we not attract Gopinatha, the source of all auspiciouness and purity? This must also be most pleasing to Sri Gurudeva, himself always internally crying in separation, and in fact all the residents of vraja bhumi who are sharing emotionally as one with Krsna gone. The entire atmoshere everywhere is powerfully affected through this process, due to Lord Krsna's inevitably being attracted.

 

I firmly believe that cementing our inner foundation will bring about that external unity we are seeking, naturally and spontaneously connecting us within our individual bodies and between groups, as well. Then even non-vaisnava organizations will want to join in, somehow or other. At least, that is my personal vision and faith, prabhus. JAI SRI RADHE! RR

 

Please excuse extensive edits!

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-19-2001).]

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by BDas:

No one I know wants to rejoin Iskcon. But it is more the idea of free association and free flow of faith that is attractive.

 

Stone: I agree.

 

Bdas: And I think it would be good for all to find Sri Guru and His Grace for sale in the Iskcon bookstores.

Of course an open door policy can be abused by fanatics from any group. And it is agression from all sides that closed doors from Siddhas group to Iskcon and Gaudiya Math.

 

Stone: Exactly. That has been my experience as well.

 

Bdas: But am I missing something here. Is this the mindset of the whole Siddha group or just my local branch?

 

Stone: My experience has been that this seems to pat of their ethos. They feel that no one has been able to refrain from "sharing" their understanding of siddhanta, etc., and they feel the threat of other groups plundering devotees they've cultivated, quite often for many years. And there have been problems, so it's not exactly paranoia.

 

 

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

In the pursuit of excellence

I received a BA in

Illiteracy

You said it

I didn't

 

.

.

.

 

 

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talasiga@hotmail.com