atma 0 Report post Posted July 1, 2001 I was looking in Jayaradhe's website and there she has a very nice posting about the Reliquary of St. Theresa of Avila. That made me remember about this Christian saint whose body is in Samadhi in Goa. I can't remember his name. Is St. Xavier? Anybody knows? I remember that they wanted to move his body to another location and when they opened the coffin they found that the body was intact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhaktavasya 0 Report post Posted July 4, 2001 Yes, it is Francis Xavier's body that is still intact after 500 years(good embalming or miraculous occurence?) in Goa, which I saw when I was there in 1983. Legend has it that Francis Xavier and Lord Chaitanya met and had friendly discussions about Chrisitianity and Vaisnavism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
talasiga 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Bhaktavasya can you tell us more about the content of that meeting? ------------------ talasiga@hotmail.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jijaji 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 -- St. Francis Xavier's Miraculous Body 1506-1552 : 46 years at a glance -- 1506 : The Sixth and last child is born to Dr. João de Jasso and Maria d'Aspilcueta at the Xavier castle (Navarra- Spain) on April 7. The boy is named Francis. 1512 : Navarra is attacked by Spain and declared its province. The father of young Francis is not able to survive such a disgrace and dies four months later. 1514 : After continuous wars, peace is declared and people accept the sovereignity of Spain. 1525 : Eighteen year old Francis leaves his ancestral home and is on the way to France for studies in the world renowned University of Paris. 1529 : In the College of Barbara, Francis shares his room with Pedro Fabro and Inigo de Loiola who would be later instrumental in changing the attitude of Francis by dinning into his ear the famous words of Jesus: What does it profit a man to gain the whole world if he looses his own soul? 1534 : The Converted Francis joins Inigo, with some other friends; they all promise to serve Jesus in poverty and chastity. 1537 : After leaving Paris the previous year, they go to Rome to be blessed by the Pope before their pilgrimage to the Holy Land (Jerusalem). On June 24, Francis is ordained priest together with Inácio (Inigo), Lainez, Rodrigues, Bobadilha and Coduri. They preach and nurse the sick in the city. They form a society under the banner of their Lord and Captain, Jesus. 1538 : Unable to go to the Holy Land due to the war, they present themselves to the Pope ready to go anywhere, to be always at his disposal. The foundation of a permanent society is proposed and the Rule is presented to the Pope for approval. Ignatius of Loyola deputes St. Francis to the Orient 1539 : At the request of the King of Portugal, one member is chosen to go to distant India, but he falls terribly sick and Francis is asked to take his place. 1540 : After a long journey Francis reaches Lisbon, accompanied by the Portuguese Ambassador Dom Pedro Mascarenhas. 1541 : The zealous Francis embarks for India on April 7, in the company of the new Governer Dom Martim Afonso. The Pope had appointed Francis his Nuncio, for the remote East. **1542 : Francis lands in Goa after a long and strenous voyage of eight months. He visits first the Bishop who is highly pleased with Francis' humility in spite of his being the Pontifical Nuncio. Leaving aside the special invitations of both the Governor and the Bishop, he chooses the Royal Hospital for his residence and spends his days nursing the sick and teaching christian doctrine. 1542 : A new institute named College of St. Paul had been established in Goa for the priestly formation of local candidates. Francis was requested to hold the rectorship of this College, but his heart was longing for the souls who had never a chance to listen to the message of Jesus. Soon after monsoon he leaves for Cochin, the most important Portuguese province next to Goa. 1543 : Francis preaches the Gospel to the Paravas of the Fischery Coast who lived by pearl fishing. In October, Francis returns to Goa to meet his confreres and to obtain funds from the Vice-Roy for the establishment of cathechists in the villages. Due to insistent requests he stays at the College of St. Paul. In December he goes again to Cochin. 1544 : He organizes the missionary work in these regions with great zeal; he is respected by the people as a saintly priest. 1545 : Francis pays homage to St. Thomas the Apostle, visiting his tomb. He spends the day preaching and caring for the sick and praying at the Apostle's tomb during night. Francis leaves for Malacca in August. He translates the important articles of faith for the benefit of local people. At the same time he collects all possible information about Japan and China. 1547 : After many visits to the surrounding areas where he had preached Jesus Christ with great success, he returns to Malacca where more missionaries had come at his request. 1548 : Francis returns to Goa. His attention had been drawn towards Japan since he had met the Japanese Angero who described the situation with minute details. There were already three Japanese students in the College of St. Paul. Francis stays only nine days in Goa; thereafter he proceeds to Bassein and meets the Governor Dom João de Castro in order to discuss some missionary problems. In April, he returns to Goa and sends more priests to Malacca. He is busy planning his visit to Japan; at the same time he takes keen interest in the formation of the students of College of St. Paul. 1548 : The monsoon prevents him from going to Cape Comorin but he goes there in October and is welcomed with great joy by the Paravas. He advises Fr. Henriques to compose a Tamil grammar for the study of the local language. By the end of November, Francis is back in Goa. 1549 : The time is come to go to Japan. Francis takes leave of all his brothers at St. Paul. Many tears are shed and many express their wish to join Francis. Our "travelling priest" Francis goes to Japan but his attention turns now and then to the College of St. Paul which was the scene of many troubles caused by Fr. António Gomes. On August 15, Francis treads for the first time on the Japanese soil. 1550 : Francis studies the Japanese people and their religion. While the people are all ears to him, many difficulties are created by the bonzes. He learns the Japanese language and summarizes the Christain doctrine, in that language. St. Francis baptises locals 1551 : Francis visits the King of Bungo, a Japanese island. The King appreciates very much the Christian doctrine, so much so that he abandons his nonzes and favours Francis, as well as his friends. Francis plans a trip to China; it is a must for him. At the same time he looks after the needs of different missions, sending missionaries from Goa. He maintains regular epistolar contact with all the missionaries and specially with his Superior Inácio de Loiola. 1552 : Francis reaches Goa in February, with two Japanese companions. He is accorded a royal welcome at the College of St. Paul. He spends only two months in this College but his words and actions leave indelible marks in the hearts of all. April : Francis leaves for China accompanied by Fr. Gago, Bro. Álvaro Ferreira, the Chinese António de Santa Fé and the Indian servant Cristóvão. During this voyage he visits the missions of Cochin and Malacca. From Singapore they go to the island of Sancian on the way to China. November : His friends persuade him to cancel his trip to China but Francis would not change his mind; he is ready to face any danger for the sake of Christ. He is left alone in the island of Sancian with António and Cristóvão. A Chinese merchant had promised to take him to China but he never came. December : Francis is seized with fever; his health deteriorates rapidly. António sees that the moment has come and puts the crucifix into the hands of dying Francis. Early in the morning of December 3, Francis sleeps for ever in the peace of Christ, worn out and white haired from his strenuous life, at the young age of 46. "Throughout his stay in the East, he kept in touch with local wants and developments and proferred necessary advice and guidance. His heart was burning with love of God and men; but his head was ever busy with the work of building the Church on stable foundations, Throughout the East... his insistence on Colleges, where, both secular and clerical learning would be imparted, and where native priests would receive the necessary training, is an example of his foresight. Humble and meek as he was in his life and conduct, he knew when to be firm and stern, especially to men in power, whether civil or ecclesiastical, who thwarted his designs." ** If Francis arrived in Goa in 1542 how could he have had discussions with Chaitanya, whom historians say left this material world around 1533 or 1534 A.D.? Where do people hear these things..? worse yet...many believe them..! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhaktavasya 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Jijaji; after reading your posting on the life of Francis Xavier, I found no clear indication that he either died in Goa or that his body is there. The church that I went to with Jayatirtha has a body encased in glass (or see-through plastic). Jayatirtha was the one who told me about Francis and Chaitanya meeting and discussing theology. He said that that is why there remains a harmonious blend of Christianity and Eastern traditions found there currently. I once posted on vnn a description of a temple/church on a mountainside. On the path leading to it there are stations of the cross. The main temple room consisted mostly of painted murals; on the west wall was a mural depicting Christ on the cross with a doitie on and weeping women in saris. The mural on the East side (from what I remember)was figures in conflict representing the battle of good versus evil, a sword with serpent wound around it, held by an old man, presumably Moses. On the next wall was a painting of Jesus floating in the air as he came out of the tomb, with 2 male figures floating along beside him. They all had long, flowing hair and were also wearing doitis. Of course Jayatirtha may have been embellishing the story. Or he may have heard it for someone else. He never did elaborate on where the story came from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhaktavasya 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 p.s. The body I saw was in the church named St. Francis Xavier (or the church of St. Francis of Xavier) and it is believed by locals to be the same Francis' body. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jijaji 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 This story has no historical substance because Chaitanya had already passed on by the time Francis arrived in India... you got that right..? ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shvu 1 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Perhaps, one night when Chaitanya was asleep in Navadwipa, Francis went back in time and appeared in Chaitanya's dream, following which they had a friendly discussion about Gaudiya Vaishnavism and Christianity. Or even better, they had a friendly debate on the positions of Jnana and karma, where Chaitanya defeated Francis. Unfortunately we cannot hope to understand such lilas with our 'imperfect' senses [it would be a grave aparAdha to try to do so] and hence, we shall leave it those who have 'perfect' senses. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 17, 2001 The Potuguese first meeting with Indian sadhus was really an amazing event. Some people of BBT here in Brazil were working in this research when I was there, 6 years ago. They even went to Portugal to find these sources in Torre do Tombo, an official and ancient archive of history at Lisbon. They fond out that in the 2nd Portuguese expedition to discover the Oceanic way to India (the same that has discovered Brazil and whose leader was Pedro Alvares Cabral), there were some very learned priests. Not ordinary missionaries, but persons like Frei Henrique de Coimbra, who was a Professor of the University of Coimbra, the oldest University of Europe and his party. And also many nobles personalities, erudite in several arts such as linguistic, cartography, astronomy, and so on. It was the largest expedition that Europe has ever sent to a Discovery journey. They arrived at Kalikut (Calcutta), after Vasco da Gama's arrival at Calicut at Malabar coast 2 years before (A.D. 1500). They were also a merchant expedition, for certain, and the main market at Coromandel cost at that time was Saptagrama, as you may know (consult your folio and put the word Portuguese, and you will see that according Prabhupada the Portuguese use to trade at that place). Portuguese would never trade with muslins, as they were foes for more than 1,000 years. They were looking after the 'canarin' King or ruler of Kalikut and by the descriptions they went to Govardhana and Hiranya, the father and the uncle of Sri Raghunata das Goswami. Canarin mean canary, the saffron bird, as the Portuguese were impressed with the dresses of the religious people who where not muslins, and they use to dress this color all over India, they called them canarins. As they did known the name of the religion of the Indians, they refer them to be canarins, as well as thier Kings and rulers, to differ them to the muslims. They would never make any contact or business with people like Hussein Shah, who is well described in the chronic as a non-believer and a foe. The cleric people, when arriving Saptagrama, went to inland to seek after temples, saintly people, and so on. They also are seeking after the kingdom of the legendary Preste João, a Eastern Christian king that they imagine to live in India, and they hoped to find a Christian kingdom near by. The local people drove then to a fantastic saint, very tall and gold fashioned, who was always chanting 'Hari! Hari!' They met this personality and got mad. They could not understand what happened with them after their meeting. They never stop to cry out 'Hari! Hari!' for their whole lives and all considered them mad. Indeed it is possible that they met Sri Gauranga in India. These priests weren't ordinary people, they could understand that the personality that the met in India wasn't an ordinary person . When they regress to Portugal, they have a interview with the King, and told him everything what happened in India. They reported that they had fond the largest treasure of their lives near the mouth of the Ganga, the "El Dorado" (The Golden One), a giant saint who was repeating the Name that Jesus told us as a secret in his prayer (Pater Nostrum qui est in caelum...); it was "Hari! Hari!" The Spaniard spies were there in the court, they went back to Castella (Spain) and reported to their King that the Portuguese had discovered a place named El Dorado, near by the mouth of the Ganga in India. The largest treasure of the world was there! Spaniards were in America at that time, but they imagine to be in India, and when they discovered the Amazon river, and the Mississippi river they assume to be the Ganga and try to reach the El Dorado by those rivers. Unfortunately, after the BBT breakup over here, these researches were interrupted. But all sources are there in Portugal, if someone is interested to continue, just go on. The door is open! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jijaji 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Unfortunately we cannot hope to understand such lilas with our 'imperfect' senses [it would be a grave aparAdha to try to do so] and hence, we shall leave it those who have 'perfect' senses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amanpeter 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Originally posted by jijaji: he ha ha ....like Prabupadas tabacco/snuff lila debate goin on right now on some other forum! How could we mere mortals understand ..? I think they put out the fire before it sent out too many smoke signals! "Ours not to reason WHY, Ours but to do and DIE!" Can't help wondering how come all those self-righteously offended `followers` that supposedly LOVE their God and gurus so very much are not yet perfect themselves! Maybe they are, but I just can't see with my own still imperfect senses, obviously blinded by so many offenses... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mahak 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Haribol. Didymous Thomas, the elder brother of Lord Jesus Christ, famous as the one who did not artificially accept that His brother survived the assassination attempt, was commissioned by Lord Jesus Christ to spread the "good news" eastward, and in doing so, established a center on the Malibar Coast of India (Goa). When the Portugese slave traders "discovered" India and attemptede to "Christianize" the place, they were surprised to discover that a large Christian Community already existed there, intact, for over 1500 years from the time of St. Thomas. All hindu traditian was present in the Christian Community, arotika ceremonies and other customary worship stylings, but the centerpiece of the community was Lord Jesus, Mother Mary, The Supreme Father (He Who sent Him), St. Thomas, and various written as well as spoken tradition. Xavier came with the Portugese, I believe, and was equally astounded by the discovery of the prieviously unknown Christian Tradition. Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa PS I agree that Srimati Jayaradhe didi's site is a very inspiring section of this here innernet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amanpeter 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa PS I agree that Srimati Jayaradhe didi's site is a very inspiring section of this here innernet. SRIMATI? Please! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Originally posted by jijaji: he ha ha ....like Prabupadas tabacco/snuff lila debate goin on right now on some other forum! How could we mere mortals understand ..? I think they put out the fire before it sent out too many smoke signals! <center> </center> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bhaktavasya 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Originally posted by jijaji: This story has no historical substance because Chaitanya had already passed on by the time Francis arrived in India... you got that right..? No problem. Either Jayatirtha made up the story of Chaitanya's meeting with Francis Xavier or he heard it from another source who made it up or speculated on it. Or...maybe it was a ghostly encounter. Something like the story of Chota Hari das's ghost-body appearing to sing for Chaitanya. (hee hee hee) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jahnava Nitai Das 2 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Originally posted by amanpeter: SRIMATI? Please! Everyone should be addressed in a respectful manner with the words Sri, Sriman, or Srimati, But perhaps this requires some culture to understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amanpeter 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2001 Originally posted by jndas: Everyone should be addressed in a respectful manner with the words Sri, Sriman, or Srimati, But perhaps this requires some culture to understand. CULTURE? Please! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jijaji 0 Report post Posted August 18, 2001 Originally posted by shvu: Perhaps, one night when Chaitanya was asleep in Navadwipa, Francis went back in time and appeared in Chaitanya's dream, following which they had a friendly discussion about Gaudiya Vaishnavism and Christianity. Or even better, they had a friendly debate on the positions of Jnana and karma, where Chaitanya defeated Francis. Unfortunately we cannot hope to understand such lilas with our 'imperfect' senses [it would be a grave aparAdha to try to do so] and hence, we shall leave it those who have 'perfect' senses. Cheers he ha ha ....like Prabupadas tabacco/snuff lila debate goin on right now on some other forum! How could we mere mortals understand ..? I think they put out the fire before it sent out too many smoke signals! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 18, 2001 Mahak:When the Portugese slave traders "discovered" India and attemptede to "Christianize" the place, they were surprised to discover that a large Christian Community already existed there, intact, for over 1500 years from the time of St. Thomas. Satyaraj: Portuguese were not slave traders at that time. They were making a discovery journey in a very scientific way for at least 200 years before they could find the Oceanic route to India. Wasn't an easy task, and they knew very well were to go, which place to first have a meeting, and Vasco da Gama had with him a letter from the King of Portugal to the Samorin of Callicut, to establish good relationships. Goa was taken from a Muslim ruler with the help of some canarins (Hindus). There were no Christians at all in Goa's area and in whole Malabar coast at that time. These Christians were in Madras, at the Coromandel coast. For certain the Portuguese pioneers were not mere adventures such as Spaniards, or buccaneers such as French and English people at that time, and not even trade companies such as the Dutch ones. There were also missionaries traveling under the Cross of Malta emblem in a kind of crusade. The Portuguese King was also the Chief of the Catholic Church in his country and the Pope was considered his superior sovereign. He was also representing the Pope in his trips of discovery and longing to establish contact with Christian communities in the East, and to spread the Christian doctrine as well. The business of slaves started more than 100 years after the discovery of the Oceanic rout to India, when the sugar-cane culture in Brazil became a better business than the Eastern trade. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
