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True bakthy only for formless god

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Read together please. The abode and Brahman are not different. One is full of other.

 

14.27 Brahmano hi pratishthaa’ham amritasyaavyayasya cha;

Shaashwatasya cha dharmasya sukhasyaikaantikasya cha.

 

14.27 27. For I am the abode of Brahman, the immortal and the immutable, of everlasting Dharma and of absolute bliss.

 

 

 

8.3 Aksharam brahma paramam swabhaavo’dhyaatmamuchyate;

Bhootabhaavodbhavakaro visargah karmasamjnitah.

The Blessed Lord said:

 

8.3 3. Brahman is the Imperishable, the Supreme; His essential nature is called Self-knowledge; the offering (to the gods) which causes existence and manifestation of beings and which also sustains them is called action.

 

 

 

4.24 Brahmaarpanam brahmahavirbrahmaagnau brahmanaa hutam;

Brahmaiva tena gantavyam brahmakarmasamaadhinaa.

 

4.24. Brahman is the oblation; Brahman is the melted butter (ghee); by Brahman is the oblation poured into the fire of Brahman; Brahman verily shall be reached by him who always sees Brahman in action.

 

 

And same with Bhakti Jnana.

 

4.38 Na hi jnaanena sadrisham pavitram iha vidyate;

Tat swayam yogasamsiddhah kaalenaatmani vindati.

 

4.38. Verily there is no purifier in this world like knowledge. He who is perfected in Yoga finds it in the Self in time.

 

 

 

 

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Excellent. Love for oneself becomes three. True, that is how you see many in what is ONE. True.

You have proven it yourself.

••read better.. i have revealed the fact that speaking of advaitic love is illogic. I LOVE MYSELF.. is not one who turns in three or three who turns in one. I LOVE MYSELF is three ; subject, object and action.

*********

 

 

You have made action a being, leave apart dividing the subject and object. Excellent. That is what I said. Sorry, that is what scriptures say.

 

One I (Purusha) becomes subject, object, and action.

 

 

********

This he says to you and me. Yogis do not need patram, pushpam etc.

••••that's not in gita, that's in your fantasy.. gita is for everyone, even liberated souls

**************

 

Who doubts that? But:

 

4. 33 Shreyaan dravyamayaadyajnaaj jnaanayajnah parantapa;

Sarvam karmaakhilam paartha jnaane parisamaapyate.

 

4.33. Superior is wisdom-sacrifice to sacrifice with objects, O Parantapa! All actions in their entirety, O Arjuna, culminate in knowledge!

 

 

*************

•••yes.. where do you think that the shape of your body comes from?.............. satan?....

Yes. The desire.

••everything comes from god, and everything, in its perfect aspect, is a god's quality (bhagavan (who possess everything), krsna (who has all attractions)) even the forms and desires

******************

 

Oh sure. That desire is also burned to ash from time to time. And only Purusha (Pur Usha -- one who has burned everything before him) remains.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Gauranga...Nityananda...

 

 

14.27 Brahmano hi pratishthaa’ham amritasyaavyayasya cha;

Shaashwatasya cha dharmasya sukhasyaikaantikasya cha.

 

14.27 27. For I am the abode of Brahman, the immortal and the immutable, of everlasting Dharma and of absolute bliss.

 

# this was already explained by the verse

 

vadanti tat tattva vidas

tattvam yaj gyanam advayam

brahmeti paramatmeti

bhagavan iti sabdyate

 

“The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11)

 

IOW there is simultaneous oneness and difference. Brahman or as Krishna say "I am the abode of Brahman" is only one of thethree features of the Absolute truth. This is an inconceivable understanding for advaitins who cannot reconcile all the scriptural statements where spiritual onenness and spiritual differences are described. I gave you the quotes about the Absolute eternal spiritual nature of Paramatma and Bhagavan.

 

# the advaitin's so-called liberation into Brahman is not a liberation.

 

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patantya adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

Persons who are falsely puffed up, thinking they have become liberated simply by understanding their constitutional position as Brahman, or spirit soul, are factually still contaminated. Their intelligence is impure because they have no understanding of the Personality of Godhead, and ultimately they fall down from their puffed-up position. (Bhagavatam 10.2.32)

 

** 8.3 Aksharam brahma paramam swabhaavo’dhyaatmamuchyate;

Bhootabhaavodbhavakaro visargah karmasamjnitah.

The Blessed Lord said:

 

8.3 3. Brahman is the Imperishable, the Supreme; His essential nature is called Self-knowledge; the offering (to the gods) which causes existence and manifestation of beings and which also sustains them is called action.

 

# Brahman is the imperishable = aksaram brahma

The word "Parama" is not proper to translate as supreme but rather as transcendental. if you translate it as supreme then you run into the contradiction with other scriptural statements like:

 

"jiva-bhuta sanatanah" - jivas, or individual living entities, are eternal.

 

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam

eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

“He is the one supreme eternal being among all eternal beings, and the one supreme conscious being among all conscious beings. He alone is fulfilling the desires of everyone.” (Katho Upanisad 2.13) and (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.10)

 

THE LIVING ENTITY IS UNCHANGING

nabhavo vidyate satah

of the eternal [the soul] there is no change (Bg 2.16)

 

THAT SUPREME LORD DOES NOT CHANGE

avyakritasyanantasya

hy anader jagad-atmanah

...the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is unchanging and unlimited and is the cause of all causes of the universe. (Bhagavatam 3.11.38)

 

Conclusively, as neither the Supreme becomes conditioned living entiy nor the living entity becomes God, the Supreme Brahman - they will never become one.

 

# Thus, because the jivas are never one with the Supreme Brahman in this sloka of Bg 8.3 the word parama is improper to translate as supreme. The jiva is not the supreme. It is obvious from the Bg that Krishna all the time makes differences between the living entities and Hiself. E.g. "the demigods, like those of the sun and moon, is called adhidaiva"..."I [am] the Supreme Lord, represented as the Supersoul in the heart of every embodied being..." (Bg 8.4). Conclusively the only proper understanding of the word "parama" is transcendental.

 

## Adhyatma you translate to mean self-knowledge. However, the word knowledge is only your addition, concoction.

 

### "the offering (to the gods)" adhijagya - these words belong to the Bg 8.4. You mixing them up up with the Bg sloka 8.3.

#### you write: 'that offering [brahman], "causes existence and manifestation of beings and which also sustains them is called action.

 

This statement is also not proper as I pointed out to you that the phrase "offering to the Gods" belongs to the next sloka Bg 8.4. And so what remains is this -

 

bhUta-living entity; BhAva-arising or produced from; udbhava-existence; karah-action

As compound words the bhuta-bhava-udbhava-karah means "producing the material bodies of the living entity"

 

Thus the proer translation of the lines

bhuta-bhavodbhava-karo

visargah karma-samjnitah

is "Action pertaining to the development of these material bodies is called karma, or fruitive activities."

This doesn't do anything with your attempt to proof oneness.

 

**4.38 Na hi jnaanena sadrisham pavitram iha vidyate;

Tat swayam yogasamsiddhah kaalenaatmani vindati.

 

4.38. Verily there is no purifier in this world like knowledge. He who is perfected in Yoga finds it in the Self in time.

 

So, what does one do after attaining perfect knowledge?

 

bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate

vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare" (Bg. 7.19).

 

evam prasanna-manaso

bhagavad-bhakti-yogatah

bhagavat-tattva-vijnanam

mukta-sangasya jayate

Thus established in the mode of unalloyed goodness, the man whose mind has been enlivened by contact with devotional service to the Lord gains positive scientific knowledge of the Personality of Godhead in the stage of liberation from all material association. (Bhagavatam 1.2.20)

 

tesam jnani nitya-yukta

eka-bhaktir visisyate

priyo hi jnanino 'tyartham

aham sa ca mama priyah

Of these, the wise one who is in full knowledge in union with Me through pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me. (Bg 7.17)

 

tac chraddadhana munayo

jnana-vairagya-yuktaya

pasyanty atmani catmanam

bhaktya sruta-grihitaya

The seriously inquisitive student or sage, well equipped with knowledge and detachment, realizes that Absolute Truth,Krishna by rendering devotional service in terms of what he has heard from the Vedanta-sruti. (Bhagavatam 1.2.12)

 

jnana-vairagya-yuktena

bhakti-yuktena catmana

paripasyaty udasinam

prakritim ca hataujasam

In that position of self-realization, by practice of knowledge and renunciation in devotional service, one sees everything in the right perspective; he becomes indifferent to material existence, and the material influence acts less powerfully upon him. (Bhagavatam 3.25.18)

 

jnana-vairagya-yuktena

bhakti-yogena yoginah

kshemaya .-mulam me

pravisanty akuto-bhayam

The yogis, equipped with transcendental knowledge and renunciation and engaged in devotional service for their eternal benefit, take shelter of My lotus feet, and since I am the Lord, they are thus eligible to enter into the kingdom of Godhead without fear. (Bhagavatam 3.25.43)

 

Conclusively, one in perfect knowledge is not the advaitin but the Vaishnava. There is no question of oneness.

 

 

 

 

 

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You have made action a being, leave apart dividing the subject and object.

••you have not said one term and i have divided in three concepts. It is the opposite, when you speak of love love is three even when you believe it is one.

Love is dualistic,, it is not possible to speak of it without variety. It is a transitive verb... "I love..." is a nonsense... "i love you", "i love god", "i love rasagullas" has sense

 

---

 

Sorry, that is what scriptures say.

One I (Purusha) becomes subject, object, and action.

••no doubt.. and being the purusha eternal and all transcendental, such variety is eternal and it is also at transcendental level. In this way you have vaikunta, with life's variety, devotees, god, love, feelings', actions... and so on.

 

Who doubts that? But:

4. 33 Shreyaan dravyamayaadyajnaaj jnaanayajnah parantapa;

Sarvam karmaakhilam paartha jnaane parisamaapyate.

••but what? where's the problem?

 

Oh sure. That desire is also burned to ash from time to time.

••god has noting to burn.. he's transcendental, everything that belongs to him is transcendental.

If there's a time for God to burn something, so the time is god.. not God

 

 

 

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Gauranga Nityananda

 

My comments start with 'REPLY'

 

*****

Excellent. Love for oneself becomes three. True, that is how you see many in what is ONE. True.

You have proven it yourself.

••read better.. i have revealed the fact that speaking of advaitic love is illogic. I LOVE MYSELF.. is not one who turns in three or three who turns in one. I LOVE MYSELF is three ; subject, object and action.

*********

 

 

You have made action a being, leave apart dividing the subject and object. Excellent. That is what I said. Sorry, that is what scriptures say.

 

One I (Purusha) becomes subject, object, and action.

 

 

********

This he says to you and me. Yogis do not need patram, pushpam etc.

••••that's not in gita, that's in your fantasy.. gita is for everyone, even liberated souls

**************

 

Who doubts that? But:

 

4. 33 Shreyaan dravyamayaadyajnaaj jnaanayajnah parantapa;

Sarvam karmaakhilam paartha jnaane parisamaapyate.

 

4.33. Superior is wisdom-sacrifice to sacrifice with objects, O Parantapa! All actions in their entirety, O Arjuna, culminate in knowledge!

 

REPLY - BAHUNAM JANMANAM ANTE JNANAVAN MAM PRAPADYATE - After passing through many, many births, when one perfect in knowledge surrenders unto KRISHNA.

 

 

*************

•••yes.. where do you think that the shape of your body comes from?.............. satan?....

Yes. The desire.

••everything comes from god, and everything, in its perfect aspect, is a god's quality (bhagavan (who possess everything), krsna (who has all attractions)) even the forms and desires

******************

 

Oh sure. That desire is also burned to ash from time to time. And only Purusha (Pur Usha -- one who has burned everything before him) remains.

 

REPLY - The supreme Purusha is always suddham—antiseptic and apapa-viddham—prophylactic (Isopanisad 8). Therefor, He is pure and uncontaminated just like the sun and so, He don't have to burn His own impurities but rather He acts as the purifier (pavitram—that which purifies Bg 9.17) of those who are impure - the conditioned souls. Therefor, the advaitic iterpretation of the word Pur Usha as 'one who has burned everything before him' is just the usual indirect and incorrect interpretation of the word. IOW we the 'ALL ONE HE PURUSHA' would not need any purification. But this is not true. Therefor, we are different from the supreme Purusha - the purifier of all. This is the only correct understanding because of the living entities and the Supreme Purusha are eternally separate entities (as previously explained and prooven by satra).

 

 

# According to the Bg 7.26 vedaham samatitani vartamanani carjuna bhavishyani ca the Supreme Personality of Godhead knows everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come.

SO, IF WE WOULD ACCEPT YOUR ADVAITA-VAD THEN THAT WOULD IMPLY THAT THE ONE PURUSHA AT ONE POINT DESIRED TO BECOME MANY IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD ALTHOUGH HE HAS BRAHMANANDA AND HE KNEW HE WILL SUFFER IN THE MATERIAL WORLD. IOW there is no answer why would the supreme Brahman create this material world where he, when divided, can suffer to the full extent.

 

Gauranga Nityananda

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"why would the supreme Brahman create this material world where he, when divided, can suffer to the full extent."

 

You ask why, you have a quest,.... I can answer... but mind you it may be useless as it may be possible that you may not have the spiritual experience to absorb.

 

The answer is suffering is from YOUr view. The YOU which views yourself as seperate from the rest of God's parts in the material world. Include everything you know/seen/experienced in this material world as in the lines of a virat/vishwa roopa and call that self as YOU. How could there be suffering.

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I can answer... but mind you it may be useless as it may be possible that you may not have the spiritual experience to absorb.

--it seems thet you too have no spiritual experience because you are not able to explain. Who has spiritual experience has "shakti" to make this experience transmissible even to the most ignorants

 

The answer is suffering is from YOUr view

--the fact that the suffering is from my view is manifest, for this reason i call it maya = what is not.... illusion.

 

The YOU which views yourself as seperate from the rest of God's parts in the material world.

--yes.. the ego is illusioned and sees the body as his true self, and you, with a more big maya, who, for excessive reaction, speculate that to leave illusion, you have also to leave the ego.

 

but you have not answered "why"

 

the answer is that we are eternally spiritual individuals in eternal relationship with the lord

 

in this way love is possible.. and our relationship with the lord is pure eternal dynamic love

 

some strange fellow, like you and me, being love simultaneous with freedom, unconceivably for our mentality, wants to experience the life whitout love for god..

 

so god, being mercifully ready to fulfill our desires, gives us MAYA, the illusion, to cover our consciousness to be sat(eternal)cit(conscious)ananda(happy)

 

in this way we feel to be mortal... ignorants...... suffering

 

..

 

so, being the transcendental qualities (satcitananda) given directly by lord, we cannot decide to forget them, to put away them................ but we, being free, can desire it........ so god fulfills our desire and gives us maya

 

then , to give us the free will to come back to our original position, he gives, to our conditioned souls the religions..

 

in this way...... having in the past asked to god to oppress us with ignorance.... now we are asking to god to remove the oppression...

 

obviously if we want to remove the oppression without recognizing the supremacy of the lord and wanting to identify ourselves with him, we are in well situated in maya... and we will remain here because there's no other reason to be here..

 

we cannot illude ourselves....

 

 

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.... se we cannot save ourselves from an illusion who's not our power but god's power

 

if illusion were under my control, i'd have the possibility to interrupt it in any moment..

 

if i close now my eyes it is done by my power, the muscles of the face, the eyelids, the nerves, the brain and so on.. so i can open them everytime

 

if my eyes are closed because an illness is oppressing me... i have to call The Doctor

 

so if i am illuded that me is non different (in supremacy, in power) with the doctor.. the illness(=maya) remains here

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"some strange fellow, like you and me" ...

 

"so god, .., gives us MAYA"

 

May I please ask you to speak for yourself. Thank you.

 

My only response to the post is that this is a wonderful effort.

 

May be the progress may be better, with a relaization that the relationship is unconditional. Unconditional relationships have zero expectations from either sides. The conditioning of 'Do now' & 'reap/pay-price later' expectation from you to god, or from god to you, might come-upon as ones own ignorance.

 

Another comment:

"Who has spiritual experience has "shakti" to make this experience transmissible even to the most ignorants"

"but you have not answered "why""

 

Show me a person who is spiritually realised and can explain the spiritual experience through the mundane logic. If it is possible to have such people, then a series of "YOU-TELL-ME-WHY" questions will surely lead to the wordly wisdom and spirituality.

 

Even in BG, the great spiritual-wisdom shared to arjuna with compassion, does not make Arjuna to act and lift the bow for the battle to begin. Krishna speak of an alternate path of bakthy for those whom he ackowledges as 'average emobdied human being'. Even that does not make arjuna lift his bow for the battle. So basically none of the anwers to the series of "WHY"-Questions from Arjuna to Krishna ever made Arjuna act. Finally Arjuna spots (as a surprise) the result of the mahabaratha battle in Krishna's viswa roopa. Prior to showing the viswa roopa Krishna only tells Arjuna that he would show his viswa roopa as he's his most special baktha (& does not tell arjuna that it may be possible to see the results of the battle within the viswa roopa).

 

So even Krishna the great spriritual lord could not convince Arjuna. Else all the vaishnavas with all the mundane logic & the series of tell-me-why questions should be the wisest spiritual masters. BG & krihsna is full of dynamism, so it's possible for me to ignore Arjuna's behaviour to represent 'average emobdied human being', as he must of done it for the benefit of the world to have BG for ever.

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"some strange fellow, like you and me" ...

"so god, .., gives us MAYA"

May I please ask you to speak for yourself. Thank you.

•••being me and you in the same condition.... that's valid also for you. Adding the fact that an advaitist who speaks cannot be out of maya for his own philosophy (=if one's individual.. he's in maya)

 

Unconditional relationships have zero expectations from either sides.

••right... that's true bhakti. Bhakta and god want only to love each other, nothing else

 

Show me a person who is spiritually realised and can explain the spiritual experience through the mundane logic.

••a spiritually realized person is powerful, he can save unlimited souls inspiring them and putting them out of mundane understanding. All saints and illuminated all over the world did it.

But if it is possible that you are illuminated and you do not believe in your power to communicate with me, no problem... it was useless when you have started to write, and it is useless to write now.

If you want to speak only to selected people, a public forum is not the ideal place.....

 

but a fact remains..... that you have no explanation more logical than mine

 

Krishna speak of an alternate path of bakthy for those whom he ackowledges as 'average emobdied human being'.

••that's your non demonstrated interpretation

 

Even that does not make arjuna lift his bow for the battle.

••arjuna, being relative and friend of sri krsna the supreme lord has no sign of ignorance, he knows everything. All his questions are for our benefit

 

Else all the vaishnavas with all the mundane logic & the series of tell-me-why questions should be the wisest spiritual masters.

••if you do not like the dialogue.. build up your site and avoid to put there the button "answer". But if you come in a forum... questions, answers, and objections are unavoidable

 

it's possible for me to ignore Arjuna's behaviour

••so make your own philosophy... build your own sect....... and do not pollute the gita's name

 

 

 

 

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I ask you to speak for yourself please.

 

"it was useless when you have started to write, and it is useless to write now.If you want to speak only to selected people, a public forum is not the ideal place..... "

 

Next

 

"••if you do not like the dialogue.. build up your site and avoid to put there the button "answer". But if you come in a forum... questions, answers, and objections are unavoidable"

 

Questions answers and objections are as much real in real-walk of life as much in forums.

 

BG is supreme, and advaiths know it best, as only advaiths can experience/admire the self-less compassion of krishna in his teachings. How would the world know the charisma/love of life for an advaith had it not been for krishna and BG.

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"you do not believe in your power to communicate with me, no problem... it was useless when you have started to write, and it is useless to write now.

If you want to speak only to selected people, a public forum is not the ideal place..... "

 

Please speak for yourself.

 

I consider questions, answers & objections are common as much in real walk-of-life as well as forums.

 

BG is supreme. An advaith has the experience & understanding to understand krishna's teachings with the greatest compassion. How would the world know the love/charisma of an advaith had it not been for krishna and BG. Krishna is perfection, krishna is sat-chit-ananda.

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Big sky we will love Krishna.

 

Think about this-

 

What is the difference between infinite space and a small object in the spiritual sense? Answer nothing.

 

This is what God is about, He can prevade the entire Universe but still be situated as one. But our minds cannot concieve of this. It's ossible to only know by research maybe Impersonal aspect. But only Bhakti you can know the personal aspect of God, which is far far beyond the reach of our material sences.

 

Gauranga-Nityananda! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Please speak for yourself.

••no boy.. i speak for yourself... because you have no answer and the only excuse is that you do not find enough spiritual advancement to transmit your teachings... So if we aren't so advanced, do not communicate.... where's the problem?

 

BG is supreme

••no.. for advaitins the "speech of bhagavan" is not supreme... because they are against the supremacy of sri krsna bhagavan

 

An advaith has the experience & understanding to understand krishna's teachings with the greatest compassion.

••again...... in advaita, being based on oneness, there's no compassion.... compassion is a relationship..

 

you are a weak buddhist.... you believe in nothing like buddhists, but you want to call it love and compassion for lack of courage

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"why would the supreme Brahman create this material world where he, when divided, can suffer to the full extent."

 

** You ask why, you have a quest,....

# No, I have no quest, I know satra

 

** I can answer... but mind you it may be useless

# I agree, you don't have perfect knowledge

 

** as it may be possible that you may not have the spiritual experience to absorb.

# first is the scripture then perfect experience will come. Not all the knowledge what you have is based on the ultimate conclusion of the scriptures and so, nobody will get the experience or realization of those imperfect conclusions what you present here. But let see what are you are trying to say.

 

** The answer is suffering is from YOUr view. The YOU which views yourself as seperate from the rest of God's parts in the material world.

# Here you try to say that viewing myself as different and separate from God is the cause of my suffering. Let see what satra say.

 

aho papacyamananam

niraye svair amangalaih

the suffering souls who are in material entanglement because of their own misdeeds. (Bhagavatam 3.24.27)

 

klisyamananam avidya-kama-karmabhih /

klisyamananam -- of those who are suffering from; avidya -- nescience; kama -- desire; karmabhih -- by execution of fruitive work (Bhagavatam 1.8.35)

 

In summary you can see that the living entity is primarily suffering because of: 1) nescience, 2) desire or hankering, 3) fruitive activities and 4) different misdeeds.

 

ajnanenavritam jnanam

tena muhyanti jantavah

Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. (Bg 5.15)

 

So, do you really think that the supreme brahman can become covered by ignorance? That would be a conclusion that is not there in any scriptures in this world. God, Krishna or let Him call Brahman is above ignorance and passion and goodness as well.

 

ye caiva sattvika bhava

rajasas tamasas ca ye

matta eveti tan viddhi

na tv aham teshu te mayi

Know that all states of being -- be they of goodness, passion or ignorance -- are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

 

So, as I supposed to be that supreme brahman I would have to be able to control ignorance, passion etc. This is obviously not so, not with me neither with you nor anybody else. (Bg 7.12)

 

tribhir guna-mayair bhavair

ebhih sarvam idam jagat

mohitam nabhijanati

mam ebhyah param avyayam

Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible. (Bg 7.13)

 

** Include everything you know/seen/experienced in this material world as in the lines of a virat/vishwa roopa and call that self as YOU.

# OK, do you know when there is a big army how many people are there? Also in ancient times there would be elephants, horses, sometimes camels. So, all of them are one called "one army". Similarly, even if I accept that I, you and everybody else are the one, as you say, vishwa roop, (the self) still, everybody is simultaneously separate, just like the drop of the water in the ocean will always be a particle of the ocean and not the complete ocean. This is an eternal truth as explained already before.

 

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam

eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

“He is the one supreme eternal being among all eternal beings, and the one supreme conscious being among all conscious beings. He alone is fulfilling the desires of everyone.” (Katho Upanisad 2.13) and (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.10)

 

ekale isvara krsna, ara saba bhrtya

The only supreme master is Krsna, and all others, both visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva, engage in His service. (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 5.142)

 

Mahanarayana Up. 1.6: Narayana is the highest Brahman, beyond darkness (in the ocean without shores, in the midst of the universe). Into Him the world disintegrates and then unfolds itself, the uttara (primeval) Purusa. There is no overlord over Him.

 

** [When one thinks I am God] How could there be suffering.

# So, as above mentioned God, Brahman is never forgetful, covered by ignorance etc. that would mean that me, you and everybody the "one God" logically would never experience suffering. But this is abviously not so. Therefor, we are obviously eternally something else then God just as it is explained in the above mantra of the Katho Upanisad 2.13.

 

Maitrayana-brahmana Up. 6.35: They who rise up out of the material energy, when they have entered into the light of glory (Brahman), appear like so many flame crests in a track of fire.

 

## Why we, as individual eternal living entities experience suffering was already explained by somebody else and so I will not repeat here the same philosophy of the scriptures.

 

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Notice the difference

 

You say

"...separate from God is the cause of my suffering"

 

I say

"..seperate from the rest of God's parts in the material world."

 

Next

You are speaking of satva rajas tamas. The realization & true bhakti is only to the Nirguna/formless, which is above the three gunas.

 

I expected you to defend the BG verse you mention.

 

"Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. (Bg 5.15)"

 

But you make a long self-directed concusion to attack the statements & limit it's scope to only Krishna.

(1) satva rajas tamas is not applicable to gods, but applicable to all human beings (Wrong. Learn that Nirguna is above the three gunas, so the bhakti to nirguna/formless is the path for the enlightened).

 

(2) Typical mundane vaisnavite logic of complete cynicism to spirituality to justify that all of us are seperate. No scriptures you quote for this. The scriptures quoted from katho upanishad refer to that of a proper realised soul. Narayana as all indian gods is also praised & prayed to by vedic people as nirguna, above all. Recall the ganeshas stotram "param nirgunam nirvishesham nireeham.. prabramharoopam.."

 

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After my two statement:

 

One I (Purusha) becomes subject, object, and action.

 

and

the citation:

 

 

4. 33 Shreyaan dravyamayaadyajnaaj jnaanayajnah parantapa;

Sarvam karmaakhilam paartha jnaane parisamaapyate.

 

4.33. Superior is wisdom-sacrifice to sacrifice with objects, O Parantapa! All actions in their entirety, O Arjuna, culminate in knowledge!

 

 

The Guest # replies:

 

REPLY - BAHUNAM JANMANAM ANTE JNANAVAN MAM PRAPADYATE - After passing through many, many births, when one perfect in knowledge surrenders unto KRISHNA.

 

 

 

What is the context and what is the motive?

 

 

 

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*******

You have made action a being, leave apart dividing the subject and object.

••you have not said one term and i have divided in three concepts. It is the opposite, when you speak of love love is three even when you believe it is one.

Love is dualistic,, it is not possible to speak of it without variety. It is a transitive verb... "I love..." is a nonsense... "i love you", "i love god", "i love rasagullas" has sense

**********

 

Rasagullas you would not have loved in absence of the consciousness of the taste of rasagullas and all other things that you love and hate. It is ONE permanent thing in which all fleeting feelings and thoughts exist.

 

**********

Sorry, that is what scriptures say.

One I (Purusha) becomes subject, object, and action.

••no doubt.. and being the purusha eternal and all transcendental, such variety is eternal and it is also at transcendental level. In this way you have vaikunta, with life's variety, devotees, god, love, feelings', actions... and so on.

 

**********

 

Purusha and varities are not of same level. Varities are of Vak (Purusha's energy). And you never give cognizance to shruti like :Ekam Sivam Advaitam of Turiya and Turiyatta.

 

One stuck with A of AUM can never see beyond VAK. And one such a one never gives credence to shruti that HE is beyond words, which (Gauri) is all differentiation and this universe.

 

 

 

*************

Sorry, that is what scriptures say.

One I (Purusha) becomes subject, object, and action.

••no doubt.. and being the purusha eternal and all transcendental, such variety is eternal and it is also at transcendental level. In this way you have vaikunta, with life's variety, devotees, god, love, feelings', actions... and so on.

********************

 

Ekam Sivam Advaitam. At Turiya and beyond, everything is SELF. Other things are like pictures on SELF (a permanent screen) -- for entertainment.

 

 

In Param Brahman there is no time, since there is no sun. Sun is fron Him. And Sun is time. The creation, maintenance and destruction are passing pictures viewed fron jiva side.

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Rasagullas you would not have loved in absence of the consciousness of the taste of rasagullas

••yes.. love for god comes from the god's consciousness given by god..

 

It is ONE permanent thing in which all fleeting feelings and thoughts exist.

••of course... one permanent thing who is the whole and the owner of the whole. One with me and simultaneously separated. In this way there's love

 

Purusha and varities are not of same level.

••spirit and spiritual variety are at the same transcendental level. If something exist in the matter, it is logic that it has his source and perfection in the spirit.... If you speak of material variety of course you're right..

 

In Param Brahman there is no time, since there is no sun

••param means supreme.. and supreme has everything.

 

The creation, maintenance and destruction are passing pictures viewed fron jiva side.

••maya.. no doubts

 

 

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Gauranga Nityananda

 

Notice the difference

 

** You say

"...separate from God is the cause of my suffering"

# Correct. But let's define what I mean by separate. By separate I mean that we left the association of the Supreme Lord in His Abode. IOW just like sometimes the mother and the child are separated so, we are now similarly separated from the direct association with God. Without God life is a suffering.

Separate can also mean disconnected from God and one of the reason is because the jiva is not under the shelter of Krishna's divine energy. But when one begins with bhakti then...

 

mahatmanas tu mam partha

daivim prakritim asritah

bhajanty ananya-manaso

jnatva bhutadim avyayam

O son of Pritha, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible. (Bg 9.13)

 

** I say

"..seperate from the rest of God's parts in the material world."

# I know what you mean. You think God divided Himself and you are therefore, the piece God. But If you are God you supposed never to become separate since God is avyayam—unchangeable. That's what Krishna says in (Bg 4.13). So, something is wrong with your philosophy. IOW God is always the great God and nothing less like you a small barking advaitin dog.

 

Next

** You are speaking of satva rajas tamas. The realization & true bhakti is only to the Nirguna/formless, which is above the three gunas.

# Wrong. You should accept the Bg as it is and not as you would like to have it. How many times should I put here this following Bg vers so that finally you understand...

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

mayy avesya mano ye mam

nitya-yukta upasate

sraddhaya parayopetas

te me yuktatama matah

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: 'He whose mind is fixed on My personal form, always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith, is considered by Me to be the most perfect.'" (Bhagavad-gita 12.1,2)

 

So, even if you have some small devotion to worship the nirakar Brahman, those who worship the form of Krishna or Vishnu are declared by Krishna to be the most perfect.

 

So, here is how one should meditate on the Supreme

 

kavim puranam anusasitaram

anor aniyamsam anusmared yah

sarvasya dhataram acintya-rupam

aditya-varnam tamasah parastat

 

One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable, and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun, and He is transcendental, beyond this material nature. (Bg 8.9)

 

The form of the Lord is very difficult to see or realize. Krishna says:

sri-bhagavan uvaca

su-durdarsam idam rupam

drishtavan asi yan mama

deva apy asya rupasya

nityam darsana-kankshinah

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form, which is so dear. (Bg 11.52)

 

** I expected you to defend the BG verse you mention.

# Be more specific. (and don't ask me some point or make remarks on some points that I already clearly explained.)

 

** "Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. (Bg 5.15)"

# Yes, only the embodied beings but not God. When He descends in this material world he remain transcendentally situated above the tri gunas. Proof - He is the master of the three gunas. One who surrenders to Him can become free from the gunas by His mercy.

 

** But you make a long self-directed conclusion to attack the statements & limit it's scope to only Krishna.

# Be more specific.

 

** (1) satva rajas tamas is not applicable to god, but applicable to all human beings (Wrong. Learn that Nirguna is above the three gunas, so the bhakti to nirguna/formless is the path for the enlightened).

# Well, this is a typical advaitin misuderstanding of the basic philosophy. There are so many sastric qoutes that refute this speculation still; you are hanging on it uselessly. I will adress this question later.

 

** (2) Typical mundane vaisnavite logic of complete cynicism to spirituality to justify that all of us are separate.

# What you want to mean by non-separateness is that you are one with God. In that case however you should have all powers and symptoms of great God. So, do you have tem? Obviously not. Pity, oh you, poor God. Again cynical remark? But it is the truth.

 

** No scriptures you quote for this.

# We are separate because we are not under the protection of Krishna's divine energy. Look the above slok (Bg 9.13).

# If I have to use the word non-separate as you would like IOW that we are one with God, that is possible and I am not against but simultaneously you have to accept that everything, including all the souls, are also different from God. My statement is strongly supported by satra.

 

vyatirekanvayo yasya

jagrat-svapna-sushuptishu

maya-mayeshu tad brahma

jiva-vrittishv apasrayah

The Supreme Absolute Truth is present throughout all the stages of awareness -- waking consciousness, sleep and deep sleep -- throughout all the phenomena manifested by the illusory energy, and within the functions of all living entities, and He also exists separate from all these. Thus situated in His own transcendence, He is the ultimate and unique shelter. (Bhagavatam 12.7.19)

 

sarvam harer vasatvena

sarirah tasya bhanyate

ananyadhipatitvac ca

tad ananyam udiryate

na capy abhedo jagatam

visnoh purna-gunasya tu

“Because everything is under the control of the Supreme Lord, Hari, everything is considered to be His body. He is the original source and master of everything, and therefore nothing should be seen as different from Him. Nonetheless, one should not foolishly conclude that there is absolutely no difference between the material universe and Lord Visnu, who is full of His own unique spiritual qualities.” (Hari vamsa)

 

At this moment of conditioned life the living entities are now separated form Krishna (who is like the sun) by maya (that is like the cloud). And what happens when we realize our non-separation when free from maya?

 

na hi tasya vikalpakhya

ya ca mad-vikshaya hata

a-dehantat kvacit khyatis

tatah sampadyate maya

A realized soul no longer sees anything as separate from Me, for his realized knowledge of Me has destroyed such illusory perception. Since the material body and mind were previously accustomed to this kind of perception, it may sometimes appear to recur; but at the time of death the self-realized soul achieves opulences equal to Mine. (Bhagavatam 11.18.37)

 

muktir hitvanyatha rupam

sva-rupena vyavasthitih

Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies. (Bhagavatam 2.10.6)

 

Very clear statements. The liberated soul has an eternal form by which he renders service to Krishna. Moreover, there is no such conclusion that the ultimate liberation is to become one with God; and there is no scriptural reference that you are God. There are however, references that people like you are simply mad (pramatta kurute). And God is never mad. So, you are not God.

 

The scriptures quoted from katho upanishad refer to that of a proper realized soul.

# So, you admit the plurality. That's good. Nityo nityanam. God is the chief eternal among all other - nityanam - eternal souls.

 

** Recall the ganeshas stotram "param nirgunam nirvishesham nireeham.. prabramharoopam.."

# Sounds like parabrahman (what is superior than brahman) have a roopam - form. Very good quote. So, how to understand the rest within this context is as follows.

 

NIRVISESAM -

'nirvisesha' tanre kahe yei sruti-gana

'prakrita' nishedhi kare 'aprakrita' sthapana

"Wherever there is an impersonal description in the Vedas, the Vedas mean to establish that everything belonging to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is transcendental and free of mundane characteristics." (CC Madhya-lila 6.141)

IOW the Supreme Lord is nirvisesa because He is prakrta rupa hina. The attributes of jiva and matter do not apply to the Lord. He is not materially affected, being transcendental.

 

** Narayana as all indian gods is also praised & prayed to by vedic people as nirguna, above all.

# Yes, He is indeed called nirguna brahman. But you don't know how to reconcile the scriptural description when He is described to have spiritual qualities and form. The proper translation of the word nirguna is nir-without and guna-qualities. Some Upanisadic passages, concerned with the nirguna, contrast with . . others concerned with the saguna. But this is not a contrast between a . Brahman ``quality-less'' and ``having qualities,'' but between teachings focused on Brahman's being free of undesirable (material) qualities and those listing Brahman's auspicious (spiritual) qualities.

 

Therefore, because God has an eternal form that doesn't mean that He must have mundane qualities.

 

na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate

na tat samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate

parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate

svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca

"He does possess bodily form like that of an ordinary living entity. There is no difference between His body and His soul. He is absolute. All His senses are transcendental. Any one of His senses can perform the action of any other sense. Therefore, no one is greater than Him or equal to Him. His potencies are multifarious, and thus His deeds are automatically performed as a natural sequence. (Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.7-8)

 

So, God has an eternal spiritual form and...

 

muktir hitvanyatha rupam

sva-rupena vyavasthitih

Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies. (Bhagavatam 2.10.6)

 

This is also very clear. The living entity has also a form at the attainment of the highest liberation. With that form He can eternally render service to Krishna. Thus bhakti for the Vaisnava is eternal and for the advaitin a temporary thing. When merged in the brahman there is for him nothing like activity or love, simply nothing. Conclusively, as many times already explained, for loving exchange there must be at least two persons the bhakta and the bhokta or the enjoyer of the service, Krishna or Vishnu.

 

The amazing quality of the personal form of God is that it is all-attractive. There are many examples that liberated advaitins became attracted to bhakti. Here is an explanation why.

 

suta uvaca

atmaramas ca munayo

nirgrantha apy urukrame

kurvanty ahaitukim bhaktim

ittham-bhuta-guno harih

All different varieties of atmaramas [those who take pleasure in atma, or spirit self], especially those established on the path of self-realization, though freed from all kinds of material bondage, desire to render unalloyed devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead. This means that the Lord possesses transcendental qualities and therefore can attract everyone, including liberated souls. (Bhagavatam 1.7.10)

 

Therefore, to realize and understand the uncontaminated spiritual form of Parabrahman, Sri Krishna or Vishnu is the highest realization.

 

pushann ekarshe yama surya prajapatya

vyuha rasmin samuha

tejo yat te rupam kalyana-tamam

tat te pasyami yo 'sav asau purushah so 'ham asmi

 

O my Lord, O primeval philosopher, maintainer of the universe, O regulating principle, destination of the pure devotees, well-wisher of the progenitors of mankind, please remove the effulgence of Your transcendental rays so that I can see Your form of bliss. You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I. (Isopanisad 16)

 

tam tvam vidama bhagavan param atma-tattvam

sattvena samprati ratim racayantam esham

yat te 'nutapa-viditair dridha-bhakti-yogair

udgranthayo hridi vidur munayo viragah

We know that You are the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, who manifests His transcendental form in the uncontaminated mode of pure goodness. This transcendental, eternal form of Your personality can be understood only by Your mercy, through unflinching devotional service, by great sages whose hearts have been purified in the devotional way. (Bhagavatam 3.15.47)

 

 

Gauranga Nityananda

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After my two statement:

 

One I (Purusha) becomes subject, object, and action.

 

and

the citation:

 

 

4. 33 Shreyaan dravyamayaadyajnaaj jnaanayajnah parantapa;

Sarvam karmaakhilam paartha jnaane parisamaapyate.

 

4.33. Superior is wisdom-sacrifice to sacrifice with objects, O Parantapa! All actions in their entirety, O Arjuna, culminate in knowledge!

 

 

The Guest # replies:

 

REPLY - BAHUNAM JANMANAM ANTE JNANAVAN MAM PRAPADYATE - After passing through many, many births, when one perfect in knowledge surrenders unto KRISHNA.

 

What is the context and what is the motive?

 

# Only in the contexts of the citation, the REPLY tells you that having properly understood the transcendental knowledge one will surrender to Krishna. This is the final conclusion of the Gita for everyone the gyani, yogi, karmi and bhakta.

 

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

mokshayishyami ma sucah

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear. (Bg 18.66)

 

cetasa sarva-karmani

mayi sannyasya mat-parah

buddhi-yogam upasritya

mac-cittah satatam bhava

In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.

 

mac-cittah sarva-durgani

mat-prasadat tarishyasi

atha cet tvam ahankaran

na sroshyasi vinankshyasi

If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost. (Bg 18.57-58)

 

Gauranga Nityananda

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Your response contradicts this (as pasted below from BG) completely. And so you modify the meaning of nirguna, as told in BG. You are changing all the interpretations of BG, and limiting the scope of it's application to Krishna himself, making sure that it doesn't apply to you or to anyone you consider like you in the mundane world.

 

"ye caiva sattvika bhava

rajasas tamasas ca ye

matta eveti tan viddhi

na tv aham teshu te mayi

Know that all states of being -- be they of goodness, passion or ignorance -- are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me."

 

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** Your response contradicts this (as pasted below from BG) completely.

 

"ye caiva sattvika bhava

rajasas tamasas ca ye

matta eveti tan viddhi

na tv aham teshu te mayi

Know that all states of being -- be they of goodness, passion or ignorance -- are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me."

 

# Yes, I completely agree that everything is within Brahman.

 

purushah sa parah partha

bhaktya labhyas tv ananyaya

yasyantah-sthani bhutani

yena sarvam idam tatam

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is greater than all, is attainable by unalloyed devotion. Although He is present in His abode, He is all-pervading, and everything is situated within Him. (Bg 8.22)

 

But within that eternal Brahman are the eternal living entities, the Supersoul, Krishna. They are never dissolved, they never lose their identity becoming thus 'ONE" with the all-pervading Brahman.

 

samam sarveshu bhuteshu

tishthantam paramesvaram

vinasyatsv avinasyantam

yah pasyati sa pasyati

samam sarveshu bhuteshu

One who sees the Supersoul accompanying the individual soul in all bodies, and who understands that neither the soul nor the Supersoul within the destructible body is ever destroyed, actually sees. (Bg 13.28)

 

avinasyantam -- not destroyed; yah -- anyone who; pasyati --sees; sah -- he; pasyati -- actually sees.

 

Very clear, the individuality of the soul remains forever. This is the conclusion of all other scriptures as well, which it seems you don't accept because of your foolishness.

 

** you modify the meaning of nirguna, as told in BG.

# As you did see above the individual soul, the Supersoul, and also Krishna and Vishnu are eternal. All of them have many qualities that are also eternal like them. Only something what is spiritual can be eternal - without beginning and end. Therefor, the real meaning of nirguna is 'having no material qualities but rather spiritual qualities'. This explanation is neither contradictory to Gita nor to any other reveled scriptures and it is therefor, the only possible, sensible and spiritual explanation.

 

** You are changing all the interpretations of BG,

# Well, after all the quotes from the Gita and other scriptures I gave to you, any other sane man could see that you are changing the meaning of the Gita and not me.

 

** [you are] limiting the scope of [Gita's] application to Krishna himself,

# Krishna is the father of all living entities - aham bija pradha pita - He spoke the Gita for the welfare of everybody. It depends on each individual's purity, piety whether one will accept the teachings of Krishna or not. But one is sure.

 

Wherever there is Krishna, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion. (Bg 18.78)

 

You see? The sloka is not about Brahman but Parabrahman, Sri Krishna.

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

mayy avesya mano ye mam

nitya-yukta upasate

sraddhaya parayopetas

te me yuktatama matah

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect. (Bg 12.2)

 

So, fix your mind on Krishnas form and become the most perfect.

 

Gauranga Nityananda.

 

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*****

Purusha and varities are not of same level.

••spirit and spiritual variety are at the same transcendental level. If something exist in the matter, it is logic that it has his source and perfection in the spirit.... If you speak of material variety of course you're right..

*********

 

 

We agree on most points except here and this difference will remain. Agni as a reality and heat as Agni's nature are of different dimensions.

 

 

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*******

# Only in the contexts of the citation, the REPLY tells you that having properly understood the transcendental knowledge one will surrender to Krishna. This is the final conclusion of the Gita for everyone the gyani, yogi, karmi and bhakta.

 

********

 

Yes. Yes. SM and I tried telling you this. Till Jnana descends one cannot submit to God -- who is eternal unborn , which is the real nature of Krishna.

 

Avyaktam vyaktimaapannam manyante maamabuddhayah;

Param bhaavamajaananto mamaavyayamanuttamam.

 

24. The foolish think of Me, the Unmanifest, as having manifestation, knowing not My higher, immutable and most excellent nature.

 

Naaham prakaashah sarvasya yogamaayaasamaavritah;

Moodho’yam naabhijaanaati loko maamajamavyayam.

 

25. I am not manifest to all (as I am), being covered by the Yoga Maya. This deluded world does not know Me, the unborn and imperishable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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