what is a happy life

Ganeshprasad · January 2, 2005

Jai Ganesh

why does the lord get angry? He is shivam.

Jai Shree Krishna

maadhav · January 2, 2005

<< No embarrasement. Brahman is this Universe. Brahman is the most excellent Guru. >>

so then there is no need for any school or university.

brahman is everywhere, and all will learn from it.

and because of that you do not need to teachanything on this forum also.

right?

kriashna says in gita;

tadvddhi pranIpAten

pariprashnen sevayA

upadekshyati te gyanam

gyAninas tatva darshina

so krishna really misguided all, and you are guiding

all to learn direclty from brahman whom you cannot see or talk with?

January 2, 2005

"The drop in this instance is consciousness; now tell me when you come in to contact with superconscious why would you loose your individuality, otherwise what is the meaning of being conscious."

Consciousness is the only eternal thing rooted in SAT. How can one lose it. One can however, become super conscious. Change from a limited consciousness to an expanded one, albiet gradually?

You say: the drop in this instance consciousness. Then are there two consciousnesses in this instance; one of Lord Varuna for the diety waters and one for the drop of water?

January 2, 2005

*****so then there is no need for any school or university.***********

There are many paths to learn. Rabindranath Tagore did not go to school or college.

*******and because of that you do not need to teachanything on this forum also**************

Who said anything about teaching? Only Self realised ones should teach. It is about learning through discussion and contemplation of Gita and other scriptures. There should be no objection to it.

However, if you have objection, I will stop immediately.

*******so krishna really misguided all*************

Where is this said in this thread?

January 2, 2005

"aham brahmasmi"

Well said.

January 2, 2005

He is Rudram also

Ganeshprasad · January 3, 2005

Jai Ganesh

((When the lord himself declare There are two entities in this world: the perishable and the imperishable. (The bodies of) all beings are perishable, and the Atma is imperishable. (15.16)

There is another supreme spirit called Ishvara or Paramaatma, the indestructible Lord who pervades the three worlds and sustains them. (15.17)

I am beyond the perishable body, and higher than the imperishable Atma; therefore, I am known in this world and in the Vedas as Purushottama, or the Supreme Spirit. (15.18)

The wise one, who truly knows Me as the Purushottama, knows everything and worships Me wholeheartedly, O Arjuna. (15.19))

Re

(Even Gita cannot contradict Shruti. One without a second means One without a second.)

no it does not, contradiction is within our perception

Re

Lord Krishna also says

7.18 Udaaraah sarva evaite jnaanee twaatmaiva me matam;

Aasthitah sa hi yuktaatmaa maamevaanuttamaam gatim.

7.18. Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal.)

Lord Krishna also says

I am the origin of all. Everything emanates from Me. Understanding this, the wise ones worship Me with love and devotion. (10.08)

Re

(Query: How can an individual see all beings “in self”? and how Lord deems “the wise as HIS SELF”?)

Simple since nothing can exist beyond the lord every thing rest in him.

Re

(Please note the word “deem”. The world is as he has deemed – “full of individualities”, but that is not how the eternal is. The individualities come and go.)

Every thing he deems must be eternal, for he is perfact. he says,

There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

Re

(Gita has a many layered knowledge appropriate for all stages. Some do not read it fully. However, it is only a question of time when the apparent contradictions will impel individuals to contemplate and seek deeper.)

Every thing is perfact even the different stages

Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways. (9.15)

MAIT U VI, 17

vi) In the beginning this was Brahman, One and infinite, ----.

((----------He alone remains awake when the universe is dissolved, and out of this space he awakens [again] the world consisting of thought. By him alone is all this thought [into being] and in him it dissolves again. -----------

The man who knows this, he verily attains the Oneness of the One.

End of citation))

Re

(The same thought as the source of creation is also stated in Gita. Can you please reproduce the verse here?)

there are many verses I do not know which one you are after here is a few

2.28

avyaktadini bhutani

vyakta-madhyani bharata

avyakta-nidhanany eva

tatra ka paridevana

8.18

All manifestations come out of the unmanifest state or Prakriti at the arrival of Brahmaa's day, and they again merge into the same Prakriti at the coming of Brahmaa's night. (8.18)

The same multitude of beings come into existence again and again at the arrival of the day of Brahmaa, and they are annihilated, inevitably, at the arrival of Brahmaa's night. (8.19)

There is another eternal unmanifest state higher than (both Purusha and) Prakriti that does not perish when all beings perish. (8.20)

This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21)

Re

(Also in Rig Veda it is stated that Rudra “thinks of” the beings in earth and heaven. Now, a man of world will say “yes, he loves the beings”. It will never occur that “the man of world” and also “the man of the heaven” are HIS thought creations alone.)

Some thought creation, he thinks and we experience pain or pleasure!

Re

(Rudra never sleeps also. When all Gods go to rest He is awake. We worship HIM when other Gods sleep.)

How can we worship if we are just his thought?

Re

(Maya makes us believe the solidity of all that we see. But actually everything is subtle, spirit.)

Solidity is not the problem, falsely identifying with matter as self is maya.

Re

(Kartikeya did not appear from union (as far as I know).

Perhaps you can tell me how he appears.

Re

(Yes, that is the point. But Jiva has, as intellect the conditioned “CIDAKASHA”. On dropping the imagination of conditioning jiva vanishes. Imagining individuality and jivahood as real is the Maya. Maya is Maya – not true. )

You have lost me here.

Re

(See, Brahman is the efficient and material cause of everything. So, how will it be possible to create something which is not Brahman? If there are such things which do not partake of Brahman’s nature then that must be untrue or Maya.)

You tell me is anything being created? Is maya not part of the lord?

Every thing that eminates from Brahman must be eternal.

Re

Some say that we are amshas and not the whole. Then did Brahman cut off his parts materially and reduced himself? This happens with Purusha and not with Brahman. Brahman eternally remains as such. Purusha is also a thought in Brahman.)

Well I accept what lord Krishna says Bg 15.7

mamaivamso jiva-loke

jiva-bhutah sanatanah

manah-sasthanindriyani

prakrti-sthani karsati

Purasha and Brahman can not be a different entity, energy and energetic can not be seprated.

((Isavasya Upanishad

Om ! That is full; this is full, (for) from the full the full (indeed) arises.

When the full is taken from the full, what remains is full indeed.

Om ! Peace ! Peace ! Peace !))

Re

(The above is a great mystery and cannot be solved till one realizes That.)

The whole creation is a great mistry, but if you cotemplate on above the previous query of yours will beging to make sense.

Re

(Yes, this not difficult to appreciate and also to refute. This happens because one is limited within the body and its senses. But yogis travel in consciousness. Yogis appear at two places at same time. They intuit future. All these true yogis can do – but without volition. These things just happen, when one drops the imagination that one is the body?)

Yes we have limited capacity but none can surpass the lord, 4 kumars although brahm gyani never proclaimed to be god.

Re

(I guess, the present effort is yet not intense and one pointed enough to overcome the past karma, results of which Lord dispenses.)

Our helplessness in this regards is an indication of our position in relation to the lord.

Re

(My Guru says “Sahaja Samadhi” state is the one which is the fourth state and is the only true state. Till one validates Gurus teaching’s, grace does not happen. So, automatically the scriptures that have all come to me (unsought) have verified this.)

Our desires and efforts are rewarded by the lord.

Gita Mahatmya

Sri Vishnuruvaacha:

2 Praarabdham bhujyamaano hi geetaabhyaasaratah sadaa;

Sa muktah sa sukhee loke karmanaa nopalipyate.

Lord Vishnu said:

2. Though engaged in the performance of worldly duties, one who is regular in the study of the Gita becomes free. He is the happy man in this world. He is not bound by Karma.

-------------

19 Geetaartham dhyaayate nityam kritwaa karmaani bhoorishah;

Jeevanmuktah sa vijneyo dehaante paramam padam.

19. He who meditates on the meaning of the Gita, having performed many virtuous actions, attains the supreme goal after death. Such an individual should be considered a true Jivanmukta.

Also from Gita itself

5.19 Ihaiva tairjitah sargo yeshaam saamye sthitam manah;

Nirdosham hi samam brahma tasmaad brahmani te sthitaah.

5.19. Even here (in this world) birth (everything) is overcome by those whose minds rest in equality; Brahman is spotless indeed and equal; therefore, they are established in Brahman.

So, the state of Jivanmukti – which most Shiva lovers believe -- due to grace of Dakshinamurti, is also stated by Lord Vishnu.

Jivanmukti does not mean loss of identity. Shukhdev swami was born jivanmukt.

Re

(At this stage, you just have to believe that once the small “i” is surrendered to Lord, He pulls it in. That is known as loss of ego. Sometimes it is very painful if one clings to individuality. In this case Lord appears as Rudra. )

If the lord appears as Rudra I will count that as blessing.

Re

(In Shiva temples, Nandi represents the dharmic ego. It gets smaller and smaller.

Once the small “i” is absorbed in Samadhi, it does not exist. If it still comes out, then it is prarabdha.)

Without exhausting the prarabdh no possibility of attaining the supreme.

Re

(It wholly depends on the self. Effort is for the self to do, but the result is for the Self to grant. Krishna says “in whatever fashion one contemplates Me, I grant one that”. If the consciousness wants the individuality to persist, it will persist. This alone is in conditioned consciousnesses power – what to wish and strive for.)

This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21)

This Supreme abode, O Arjuna, is attainable by unswerving devotion to Me within which all beings exist, and by which all this universe is pervaded. (See also 9.04 and 11.55) (8.22)

I will aspire to reach his supreme abode and on this note I will take a break I will try and answer the rest later.

Jai Shree Krishna

January 4, 2005

So are the Upanishads. So are the Puranas

Jai Ganesh

There is no contradiction. However, translation to translation, depending on perspective of the author certain differences creep in. I give below the Sanskrit verse and its translation for the verse 15.16 which you have reproduced as below. Note that in 15.16 atma word is not there; actually it is kutastha.

**************(There are two entities in this world: the perishable and the imperishable. (The bodies of) all beings are perishable, and the Atma is imperishable. (15.16)**********

15.16 Dwaavimau purushau loke ksharashchaakshara eva cha;

Ksharah sarvaani bhootaani kootastho’kshara uchyate.

15.16. Two Purushas there are in this world, the perishable and the imperishable. All beings are the perishable, and the Kutastha is called the imperishable.

“Ksharah sarvaani bhootaani kootastho’kshara uchyate”

Does the above unambiguously mean existence of an eternal individual soul and another eternal super soul? Rather it means that material being is destructible and spirit is indestructible. And do not confuse Purusha as meaning Man. Purusha is one who has burned everything before him (or eternal). This actually validates “eternal but perishable maya bodies and imperishable eternal spirit”.

Now whether the spirit within you has eternal separate and therefore bonded status is a question not tackled here?

Now read below these verses which clearly state that yogis with knowledge of SELF have their intellect and self absorbed in THAT.

5.16 Jnaanena tu tad ajnaanam yeshaam naashitam aatmanah;

Teshaam aadityavaj jnaanam prakaashayati tatparam.

5.16. But, to those whose ignorance is destroyed by knowledge of the Self, like the sun, knowledge reveals the Supreme (Brahman).

5.17 Tadbuddhayas tadaatmaanas tannishthaas tatparaayanaah; Gacchantyapunaraavrittim jnaana nirdhoota kalmashaah.

5.17. Their intellect absorbed in That, their self being That; established in That, with That as their supreme goal, they go whence there is no return, their sins dispelled by knowledge.

Such yogis are established in Brahman -- brahmani te sthitaah

5.19 Ihaiva tairjitah sargo yeshaam saamye sthitam manah;

Nirdosham hi samam brahma tasmaad brahmani te sthitaah.

5.19. Even here (in this world) birth (everything) is overcome by those whose minds rest in equality; Brahman is spotless indeed and equal; therefore, they are established in Brahman.

Such yogis attain Bramanirvanm

5.24 Yo’ntah sukho’ntaraaraamas tathaantarjyotir eva yah;

Sa yogee brahma nirvaanam brahmabhooto’dhigacchati.

5.24 He who is ever happy within, who rejoices within, who is illumined within, such a Yogi attains brahma nirvaanam.

Now some correlate (half way) the mention of two purushas (in Gita) as referring to two birds of Mundaka Upanishad and imply that two are eternally separate. Let us read Mundaka Upanishad.

MUNDAKA UPANISHAD

3.1.1. Two birds, inseparable friends, cling to the same tree. One of them cats the sweet fruit, the other looks on without eating.

3.1.2. On the same tree man sits grieving, immersed, bewildered by his own impotence (an-isa). But when he sees the other lord (isa) contented and knows his glory, then his grief passes away.

3.1.3. When the seer sees the brilliant maker and lord (of the world) as the Person who has his source in Brahman, then he is wise, and shaking off good and evil, he reaches the highest oneness, free from passions;

Note: he reaches the highest one-ness.

***********7.18 Udaaraah sarva evaite jnaanee twaatmaiva me matam; Aasthitah sa hi yuktaatmaa maamevaanuttamaam gatim.

7.18. Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self; for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal.)*********************

---------

Re (Query: How can an individual see all beings “in self”? and how Lord deems “the wise as HIS SELF”?)

Simple since nothing can exist beyond the lord every thing rest in him.********************

You say that Lord “deems wise man as his very SELF since every thing rest in him”.

No, it is not so simple. Your interpretation is wrong. All beings are in Him but the wise are “yuktaatmaa” – the joined soul. Please read the Sanskrit term “yuktaatmaa”. I am not a yogi but I exist within HIM but my atma is not yukta. There is a possibility of “yuktaatmaa”.

************Re (Yes, that is the point. But Jiva has, as intellect the conditioned “CIDAKASHA”. On dropping the imagination of conditioning jiva vanishes. Imagining individuality and jivahood as real is the Maya. Maya is Maya – not true. )

You have lost me here.

*********************************

This we will discuss later.

***********Re (See, Brahman is the efficient and material cause of everything. So, how will it be possible to create something which is not Brahman? If there are such things which do not partake of Brahman’s nature then that must be untrue or Maya.)

You tell me is anything being created? Is maya not part of the lord? Every thing that eminates from Brahman must be eternal.**************************

Now, you have conceded another point. The material body also emanates from HIM. I have not surely created or emanated the body. So, will the body also be not eternal?

**************((Isavasya Upanishad

Om ! That is full; this is full, (for) from the full the full (indeed) arises.When the full is taken from the full, what remains is full indeed.

Om ! Peace ! Peace ! Peace !))

The whole creation is a great mistry, but if you cotemplate on above the previous query of yours will beging to make sense.*******************************

Will you please explain this to me.

************Re (Yes, this not difficult to appreciate and also to refute. This happens because one is limited within the body and its senses. But yogis travel in consciousness. Yogis appear at two places at same time. They intuit future. All these true yogis can do – but without volition. These things just happen, when one drops the imagination that one is the body?)

Yes we have limited capacity but none can surpass the lord, 4 kumars although brahm gyani never proclaimed to be god.************************

No one surpasses Lord. And no one can claim to be GOD.

************Re (I guess, the present effort is yet not intense and one pointed enough to overcome the past karma, results of which Lord dispenses.)

Our helplessness in this regards is an indication of our position in relation to the lord. ****************

No doubt about it.

************Jivanmukti does not mean loss of identity. Shukhdev swami was born jivanmukt.**********

It wholly depends on the self. Krishna says “in whatever fashion one contemplates Me, I grant one that”. If the consciousness wants to worship as individual, it will be granted. This is in conditioned consciousnesses power – what to wish and strive for.

On the other hand, some yogis may prefer to be absorbed in THAT.

5.17 Tadbuddhayas tadaatmaanas tannishthaas tatparaayanaah; Gacchantyapunaraavrittim jnaana nirdhoota kalmashaah.

5.17. Their intellect absorbed in That, their self being That; established in That, with That as their supreme goal, they go whence there is no return, their sins dispelled by knowledge.

Don’t ever think that we imply that this absorption is obtaining the powers of Ishwara. No, absorption means “just being”, without any desire. There cannot be any desire of creation, maintenance and destruction (the powers of Ishwara). Brahma Sutras are very clear on this.

And Brahma Sutras define Brahman as THAT from which proceeds the acts of creation, maintenance and destruction. It does not say that Brahman is one who does “creation, maintenance and destruction”. Brahman is the seer whose powers “create, maintain, and destroy”.

***********This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21)****************

Now will you please tell me: What can be manifest in this “un-manifest state, individuality?

Please read again:

8.21 This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal.

What can be manifest in this unmanifest ultimate goal?

I consider you my Guru not for nothing. Very subtly (apparently opposing me), you put the conclusion by yourself. Isn’t this subtle? Beyond the grasp of many?

*****************This Supreme abode, O Arjuna, is attainable by unswerving devotion to Me within which all beings exist, and by which all this universe is pervaded. (See also 9.04 and 11.55) (8.22)

I will aspire to reach his supreme abode. ***************************

I also have the same aspiration.

You have not answered “What is individuality and where it is resident?”

Jai Shree Krishna

Om Namah Sivayyaa

January 4, 2005

Namaskar

18.20 Sarvabhooteshu yenaikam bhaavamavyayameekshate;

Avibhaktam vibhakteshu tajjnaanam viddhi saattwikam.

18.20 That by which one sees the one undivided undecaying Reality in all beings, not separate in all the separate beings—know thou that knowledge to be Sattwic (pure).

18.21 Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan; Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

18.21 But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

Ganeshprasad · January 4, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar

Yes if you can see the lord in all being is Sattwic, that not to say all being are the lord.

Looks like the lord is guiding you in what you seek.

I give the knowledge, to those who are ever united with Me and lovingly adore Me, by which they come to Me. (10.10)

Out of compassion for them I, who dwell within their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance by the shining lamp of knowledge. (10.11)

There are lots of points to consider, you are testing me,

i will try my best to respond it will take some time.

Jai Shree Krishna

January 5, 2005

***************Re (in Rig Veda it is stated that Rudra “thinks of” the beings in earth and heaven. Now, a man of world will say “yes, he loves the beings”. It will never occur that “the man of world” and also “the man of the heaven” are HIS thought creations alone.)

Some thought creation, he thinks and we experience pain or pleasure!**********************

This is incomplete. Lord is not responsible for the pains but still He takes away the pains when we submit to him.

Lord’s creations are motiveless and happen as per nature of his powers and are limited to motiveless Devas and sages. But down the line, beings so created can create of their own because of power of consciousness inherent in the mind. Then attachment comes. For example, I have freedom to think about a huge house and depending on power of my mind the house will come up sooner or later -- again depending on the one-pointedness of the thought. If I attach that house to me then pain will ensue one day or other. Similarly, I wished for a certain kind of a body sometime and I obtained it. This ATTACHMENT again will bring in agony.

We desire pleasure. But pleasures are attended by equal pain also. Lord has no contribution to it. He just ensures that the fruits are appropriate to karmas. When we submit he will give us knowledge and we will go past the dualities of pain and pleasure.

Attachment to personality/individuality is another one. Howsoever, refined this attachment may be and howsoever sattwik an individual may be, such a person cannot overcome the maya of glory to the individual self. This is a truth.

We see so much of antagonism against sages like Ramakrishna and Ramana. This is not only uncalled for but it is bad karma. These sages lost there individuality at an early stage and there was no individual to claim “I am God”. These were true yogis who just existed devoid of individual will – always absorbed in HIS thought.

Such men are very dear to Lord and they are yuktatma.

January 5, 2005

*******you are testing me***********

No dear friend, who am I to test you?

Lord has brought us together.

Ganeshprasad · January 5, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Dear Atanu Namaskar.

Re

(No dear friend, who am I to test you?)

a friend indeed.

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad · January 7, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanu

Re

(Yoga Vashista states that though both paths are efficacious; the feeling of even a very small “i” ness does not allow one to give up doership. Such a person says “I am a bhakta”. But Lord states that “I do everything”.)

Krishna says similar thing in Gita

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

But, to those who worship Me as the personal God, renouncing all actions to Me; setting Me as their supreme goal, and meditating on Me with single minded devotion; (12.06)

I swiftly become their savior, from the world that is the ocean of death and transmigration, whose thoughts are set on Me, O Arjuna. (12.07)

In an orgnisation the chief says I am responsible of everything does this mean others are not working?

The very act of self realization is ours how can we give up doer ship?

That is why the lord says do it for me.

He also says,

Those who perceive that all works are done by the (Gunas of) Prakriti alone, and thus they are not the doer, they truly understand. (13.29)

Why this contradiction?

What you do not wish to do out of delusion; you shall do even that against your will, bound by your own nature-born Karma, O Arjuna. (18.60)

So in one sense we have no control on action since Prakriti has maped it out, but it is not random but it is based on our previous Karma.

Learn from Me, O mighty-armed Arjuna, the five causes, as described in the Saamkhya doctrine, for the accomplishment of all actions. (18.13)

The physical place or the seat of Karma, the doer or the Guna, various instruments or the organs (of perception and action), and the fifth is the Daivam(18.14)

Re

(What appears after a pralaya (which itself is a thought in Brahman), does not remain same. Great Yogi Bhusunda crow has something to teach here. In one creation he saw that the directions were reversed. Then he saw a creation without time -- there was no sun created. He saw different Indra’s in different creations. He saw a creation were there was no Brahma. And so forth.

Do not put too much faith on what you perceive with sense organs. Scriptures slowly break the conditioning of the senses. It has to be gradual, else it may be painful. )

Yes it is to understand the senses are faulty.

******************Re (After dissolution, all including the Devas, remain in Lord as nescience (memory), but not as reality apart from the ONE LORD. Lord Vishnu also sleeps on Sheshnag, which is residual nescience.)

What is real will always remain.*******************************

The reality is sat-chit-ananda -- the Self; the one consciousness (CIT) which is Anand and which has root in SAT.

Nothing else is eternal. Names and forms are functional and interchangeable.

Lords names and form are eternal, only material forms goes back to its original simple form due to lack of life in it.

Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme.bg.7.24

Re

(The cloud is imagination of the consciousness itself and not there as an object. The imagination is the cloud. The individuality is the imagination.)

Imagination of whose consciousness?

Re

(The big I – the one Rudra who is ever awake is never deluded by the maya of God Head (Aditi-Vishnu). But the eleven Rudras -- the mind forces (senses and the cognition) are deluded from time to time. )

Here you are talking of duality.

Re

(The Self ever exists – not with upadhis. Upadhis are like the views of kaleidoscope and depend on our or consciousnesses wish. Make your wish pure and one pointed and you will be astonished by the power of consciousness.)

If I make my wish pure it is still my wish, how can I be astonished?

Re

(The mind is not inert like the body is.)

Still it is not the self, it is just like random access memorary (ram) make it your friend or your enemy, it is a matter of controlling it. So who is controlling it?

Gita

the senses are said to be superior (to matter or the body), the mind is superior to the senses, the intellect is superior to the mind, and Self is superior to the intellect. (3.42)

Re

(Mind is nothing but CIDAKASH equipped (or burdened) with an imagination (nescience) that I am a mountain. Please do not ask me whose karma it is. )

Mind is source of imfomation but the self is acting on it, so the karma is not of the mind but the doers.

Re

(Such a mind gathers the senses and a body to serve the purpose of the original imagination. The mind is the doer. Since, in this conditioned state mind is the doer, it also accumulates karma as nescience and enjoys the fruits.)

I beg to differ mind can not act, the self identifying with the body to be the self therefor gives in to the senses which the mind controls.the trick is to control the mind, easy said then done.

The branches (of this world tree of Maya) spread below and above (or all over the cosmos). The tree is nourished by the Gunas; sense pleasures are its sprouts; and its roots (of ego and desires) stretch below in the human world causing Karmic bondage. (15.02)

Neither its (real) form nor its beginning, neither its end nor its existence is perceptible here on the earth. Having cut these firm roots of the Ashvattha tree by the mighty ax of (Jnana and) Vairaagya or detachment; (15.03)

The goal should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05)

The sun does not illumine there, nor the moon, nor the fire. That is My supreme abode. Having reached there they do not come back. (15.06)

Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

Re

(But on enquiry “where and what is mind”, the mind is not found. Truly, “where is your mind”? Can you answer this?)

Yes it is nothing but information, a lot of options from the simple to most difficult one mind relays, the self acts on it based on intelligence gathered, driven by weak mind(easy option) in pursuiet of bliss, limited by Karma bandh, the result is mainly disappointment, so the soul goes on and on entangled, confused in this temporary and full of pain material life,

Re

(If brain is the seat of mind then, after death, when the physical brain is present, it must be able to cognize?)

No just as defunct computer looses it memorary so does the brain

As the air takes away the aroma from the source (or flower), similarly Atma takes the six sensory faculties from the physical body it casts off (during death) to the (new physical) body it acquires (15.08)

Re

(So, when, one realizes that the mind itself is nonexistent as a separate object – apart from consciousness, all accumulated karmas are said to be washed away. Only, the body performs like an actor till it is discarded.)

The body has no ability to act without the self, mind is like a script maped out for the body, various interaction with the other actors on the big stage, play out the script or changes it and also write new one for the future.

Re

(But the final truth is:

Na nirodha na chotpattir

Nabaddho na cha sadhakaha

Na mumukshur na vai mukta

Ityesha paramarthata

There is no creation and no dissolution. There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of reality.)

These are flowerly words which may be true, I don’t know.

Here is what the Lord says

There is no nonexistence of the Sat (or Atma) and no existence of the Asat. The reality of these two is indeed certainly seen by the seers of truth. (2.16)

Know That, by which all this (universe) is pervaded, to be indestructible. No one can destroy the indestructible (Atma) . (2.17)

The one who thinks that Atma is a slayer, and the one who thinks that Atma is slain, both are ignorant, because Atma neither slays nor is slain. (2.19)

The Atma is neither born nor does it die at any time, nor having been it will cease to exist again. It is unborn, eternal, permanent, and primeval. The Atma is not destroyed when the body is destroyed. (2.20)

When you see a movie you know there is no reality on the screan but the actor you see are verymuch there hard working for their next movie.

*************Re (There is no free will till one does not know the “I”. Till then Niyati controls. )

Re

(When you say “OM”, know that it is the real “I” that you are prostrating to. See patiently what transpires then. Japa which was lifeless and a burden will become rejuvenating.)

Thank you that is required but this rascal mind is active it is giving me easy option than the one i have set down to contemplate and before you know it my japa has become mechanical, but I know I have to persevere.

Re

(I will elaborate from Yoga Vashistha.

Lord observes a subtle Purusha, which exists aided by Lord’s sakti. The subtle Purusha knows I am Brahman. This begins a mind and the so-called creation in mind. Seven Sages, Trimurtis, and other Devas and Kings are born. Mind has the same stuff as omniscient, omnipotent consciousness, so what the mind wishes that manifests.

These original created beings also create. So, many offspring are born of sages and kings. Till a stage, the creations are motiveless and pure like sun illuminating without a motive. But often, motive creeps in and delusion begins -- “I am this king and this is my kingdom”.

To cope with such delusions the Lord has Trimurtis and the sages. The original guru of sages is Lord Dakshinamurti.

So, at present I am a very distant relative of HIM and have no memory of the chain. Self realized sages first know the links of the chain. The whole chain has to realize the Self.)

That does not matter the reality do not change through loss of memorary.

Akash Bhara Surja Tara, Vishwa Bhara pran

Tahari majhkhane dekhechi tomare

Bishyaye (Tagore)

Re

(“This universe of Sun and stars, full of prana. In the midst I behold you in wonder”)

How can you behold whitout your own reality.

((Yes just exist as one or otherwise, without any sankalpa, our costant ranting and raving, or for better word churning to know the truth has no bearing on reality.It just is.)) ******************

Re

(Yes. But the emerging poison, if any, from genuine desire to attain immortality, will be scooped and drunk by HIM. That is HIS promise. We all know it.)

That is his causeless mercy.

Re

(I understand that this is true of spiritual heaven also. One comes back “BANG”, from there after finishing off the good karmas. And that may be a big fall. One may become a stone or a demon.)

No, this is true of swarga only

The knowers of the three Vedas and the drinkers of the juice of Soma, whose sins are cleansed, worship Me by Yajna for gaining heaven. As a result of their good Karma they go to heaven and enjoy celestial sense pleasures. (9.20)

Having enjoyed the wide world of heavenly sense pleasures they return to the mortal world upon exhaustion of their good Karma (or Punya). Thus following the injunctions of three Vedas, the fruitive workers take repeated birth and death. (9.21)

But

The dwellers of all the worlds including the world of Brahmaa, the creator, are subject to (the miseries of) repeated birth and death. But, after attaining Me, O Arjuna, one does not take birth again. (8.16)

The sun does not illumine there, nor the moon, nor the fire. That is My supreme abode. Having reached there they do not come back. (15.06)

Re

(There should not be any confusion in this regard. The objects perceived by the senses are not happiness. The Self is happiness – Sat-Chit-Ananda. Simply, do japa with the knowledge that Rama is in the Hridaya and Rama is the Hridaya. This will start the catalysis.)

O there is no confusion, only for a diseased person the medicine takes longer to take effect

therefore lake of bliss makes one to search momentarily else where, until the intelligence kicks in. it is a constent battle.

Re

(Negation is wrong word. Obliteration of the untruth is correct. The mind thinking “I am this body” or “I am this mind” or “I am this soul” hides the true unlimited consciousness.)

Astoma sat gamaya.

Re

( In this regard can you prove to yourself, a soul independent of Lord? )

not independent but dependent.

Re

(The so-called soul is nothing but the manas – which again is nothing but consciousness limited by the Lord to know the Self.)

So the lord limits the consciousness to know the self this does not make sense.

Re

(****************Re (Sage Vashishta repeatedly -- through duration of a month or more--- taught Lord Rama that there is no cause and effect in the sense of cause giving rise to effect which is different from the cause. Without realizing this there is no chance of salvation. Cause and effects are the reasoning of the mind which by nature is limited -- though intelligent (through intelligence of consciousness). The delusion is that the mind is independently intelligent. The truth is that (as per the sage) that mind/s has/have no real existence apart from the pure consciousness. All reasoning of cause and effect are in the mind.)

Then it does not make sense of the creation. And I think we are giving too many different meaning to the mind.

((Whose mind?****************************))

Re

(Finally there is no mind. It is a notion in consciousness.)

See what I mean above.

**********************Re (On the same line, Varuna taught Bhrigu that a one pointed mind alone is Brahman. A mind devoid of thoughts is Brahman.)

Re

Japa will strengthen the one pointed ness but will not still the so-called mind. Only the following enquiry will:

“I am not this body, I am not this mind and I am not the controller, and I am not independent from the whole, so WHO AM I?”)

I am happy in this knowledge to endever to seek the lord.

Re

(Shruti evidences have been posted above. Mahavakyas are there. Only thing is that our views can be faulty.)

Those evidence are subject of deduction and not directly refuting i.

Re

(Yes, a mistake. Lord’s sakti does it without motivation.)

I cant see any thing happening without reason.

Re

(Bliss is not an object to be chased. It is the real “I”. You are that bliss. Know the OM.)

Knowing the Om will give me bliss, I am not that Om.

Now, it is my turn to query. What is individuality?

mamaivamso jiva-loke

jiva-bhutah sanatanah

manah-sasthanindriyani

prakrti-sthani karsati bg15.7

I have not given any translation but for me two words are very important amso and sanatanh.

Re

(Yes, Atma is eternal and faultless. But is the individuality fault less? What is not fault less cannot be Brahman. And nothing is outside Brahman. Do you get it? The apparent fault is the imagination and Maya. It has no real existence and is just a notion which has to be dropped.)

The individuality covered by maya in this bhovtik world is faulty not because he is individual but because he is deluded by ignorance. If there is nothing there to be covered by maya there no one deluded. Remember the lord is not covered by maya.

Re

(There are scriptures which say that individuality is the illusion. At this stage we have to take cognizance of these verses and not forget these or ignore. Later all learning gets smoothened.)

Either the illusion is of the lord or of the individual, please tell me whose?

KATH U IV, 14-15

14. As water descending on mountain crags

wastes its energies among the gullies,

so he who views things as separate

wastes his energies in their pursuit.

So do not think your self different from the lord in quality or else meeting is like mud and water.

Re

(15. But as pure water poured into pure

becomes the selfsame--wholly pure,

so too becomes the self of the silent sage,

of the one, O Gautama, who has understanding.)

My understanding is only pure can meet the pure otherewise there is no meeting point,

Or else the water becomes impure

So only one who has an understanding of the self can become pure. Remember Brahman is always pure.

Re

(Note: The maya is the feeling that “one is not That”. This is the imagination which has to be dropped.)

Actually maya is the feeling one is that, that which it is not.

Jai Bhole, please bless us.

Jai Shree Krishna. Om Namah Sivayya.

January 8, 2005

**********Re (Yes, Atma is eternal and faultless. But is the individuality fault less? What is not fault less cannot be Brahman. And nothing is outside Brahman. Do you get it? The apparent fault is the imagination and Maya. It has no real existence and is just a notion which has to be dropped.)

The individuality covered by maya in this bhovtik world is faulty not because he is individual but because he is deluded by ignorance. ------- maya.************

Very good. So, you mean that on removal of Maya the individual also will become perfect. That is perfect. We do not have any point of difference.

January 8, 2005

Om Vinayaka namo Om

Namaste Ganesh Prasad Ji

*******************Re (The cloud is imagination of the consciousness itself and not there as an object. The imagination is the cloud. The individuality is the imagination.)

Imagination of whose consciousness?**********************

My consciousness, which is nothing but unlimited consciousness limited with certain attributes.

************Re (The big I – the one Rudra who is ever awake is never deluded by the maya of God Head (Aditi-Vishnu). But the eleven Rudras -- the mind forces (senses and the cognition) are deluded from time to time. )

Here you are talking of duality.**********************************

When duality is in one’s consciousness, it is true. For me Duality is true. Why should I pretend that Advaita is true for me? Even Vishista advaita is not true at present. Whatever is in consciousness is true, since consciousness is the truth. But when great sages becomes yuktatma they see ONE Lord only. That is absolutely true. The truth of the sages is absolute whereas my truth is relative. For me eleven Rudras are distinct entities. But I know the absolute truth theoretically.

********Re (The Self ever exists – not with upadhis. Upadhis are like the views of kaleidoscope and depend on our or consciousnesses wish. Make your wish pure and one pointed and you will be astonished by the power of consciousness.)

If I make my wish pure it is still my wish, how can I be astonished? ***************

Because as below

Kena Up.

I-1. Wished by whom is the mind directed to fall (on its objects)? Directed by whom does the foremost vital air move? By whom is wished this speech which the people utter? Who is the radiant being that unites the eye and the ear (with their objects)?

I-2. Because He is the ear of the ear, the mind of the mind, the speech of speech, the vital air of the vital air, and the eye of the eye, the wise, freeing themselves (from the identity with the senses) and renouncing the world, become immortal.

***********Re (The mind is not inert like the body is.)

Still it is not the self, it is just like random access memorary (ram) make it your friend or your enemy, it is a matter of controlling it. So who is controlling it? ****************

One has to submit and let the Self control the self.

Book 1 TEXT 8

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

The goddess, the regulator; the spiritual potency of Him; beloved of Him; under the control of lingam—bhagavan sambhuh-- jyotih-rupah-- eternal; that yonih is potency (saktih ), the desire; the seed; and mahat--the faculty of cognition of the Supreme Lord Hareh.

Small self’s cognition has to be handed over to the SELF, simply by knowing that it the Self alone that is the truth -- Amsha or no amsha. Amsha also works because of the whole.

***********Re (Mind is nothing but CIDAKASH equipped (or burdened) with an imagination (nescience) that I am a mountain. Please do not ask me whose karma it is. )

Mind is source of imfomation but the self is acting on it, so the karma is not of the mind but the doers.* **********************

It is mind that acts. You only said that body is inert, how can it act? The small self (body) is within the mind and not other way around.

Gita

the senses are said to be superior (to matter or the body), the mind is superior to the senses, the intellect is superior to the mind, and Self is superior to the intellect. (3.42)

In above verse the Self is the Supreme soul and not amsha.

**********Re (Such a mind gathers the senses and a body to serve the purpose of the original imagination. The mind is the doer. Since, in this conditioned state mind is the doer, it also accumulates karma as nescience and enjoys the fruits.)

I beg to differ mind can not act, the self identifying with the body to be the self therefor gives in to the senses which the mind controls.the trick is to control the mind, easy said then done.*********************

Which self you are talking about? I am talking about mind-body self, wherein mind is the leader and responsible (though actually through the power of SELF). Supreme Self, is the ultimate agency. This Supreme Self resides within and self has to be raised by the power of Self.

************Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)*****************

“eternal indivisible fragment”. How can indivisible be fragmented? There is some translation error.

************Re (But on enquiry “where and what is mind”, the mind is not found. Truly, “where is your mind”? Can you answer this?)

Yes it is nothing but information, a lot of options from the simple to most difficult one mind relays, the self acts on it based on intelligence ********************

Again which self you are talking about? Can you find it? Will you please enquire “where is the self that is acting on my mind??”

The answer is given below:

Kena U.

I-1. Wished by whom is the mind directed to fall (on its objects)?

**********Re (So, when, one realizes that the mind itself is nonexistent as a separate object – apart from consciousness, all accumulated karmas are said to be washed away. Only, the body performs like an actor till it is discarded.)

The body has no ability to act without the self, mind is like a script maped out for the body, various interaction with the other actors on the big stage, play out the script or changes it and also write new one for the future.*******************

So, let us first enquire and find out where this self, which controls the mind is?

Kena U.

I-1. Wished by whom is the mind directed to fall (on its objects)?

**********Re

Na nirodha na chotpattir

Nabaddho na cha sadhakaha

Na mumukshur na vai mukta

Ityesha paramarthata

There is no creation and no dissolution. There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of reality.)

These are flowerly words which may be true, I don’t know. Here is what the Lord says

There is no nonexistence of the Sat (or Atma) and no existence of the Asat. The reality of these two is indeed certainly seen by the seers of truth. (2.16)******************

What is asat?

“The branches (of this world tree of Maya) spread below and above (or all over the cosmos). ------(15.02)

Neither its (real) form nor its beginning, neither its end nor its existence is perceptible here on the earth. ---- (15.03)”

So, What is asat?

“Na nirodha na chotpattir ------“ are not mere flowery words.

*********When you see a movie you know there is no reality on the screan but the actor you see are verymuch there hard working for their next movie.*******************

Who is real actor? Let us enquire. The following may help.

Kena Upanishad

-1. Wished by whom is the mind directed to fall (on its objects)? Directed by whom does the foremost vital air move? By whom is wished this speech which the people utter? Who is the radiant being that unites the eye and the ear (with their objects)?

**************

Re

(“This universe of Sun and stars, full of prana. In the midst I behold you in wonder”)

How can you behold whitout your own reality. *******************

True. Who ever said that I do not have a reality? “I am” but “ I am not this body-mind”. Then “what am I”?

*************Re (I understand that this is true of spiritual heaven also. One comes back “BANG”, from there after finishing off the good karmas. And that may be a big fall. One may become a stone or a demon.)

No, this is true of swarga only

The knowers of the three Vedas and the drinkers of the juice of Soma, whose sins are cleansed, worship Me by Yajna for gaining heaven. As a result of their good Karma they go to heaven and enjoy celestial sense pleasures. (9.20)

Having enjoyed the wide world of heavenly sense pleasures they return to the mortal world upon exhaustion of their good Karma (or Punya). Thus following the injunctions of three Vedas, the fruitive workers take repeated birth and death. (9.21)****************

I equate heaven with swarga. Is it incorrect? “-----the fruitive workers take repeated birth and death -------------”. So, one who has completely given up ownership of karma can obtain permanent liberation. So, when, I do loving worship to attain liberation, I suppose I am still doing “fruitive karma”, and I will come back bang. Only total submission will do. I am nothing, HE is all.

*********Re (Negation is wrong word. Obliteration of the untruth is correct. The mind thinking “I am this body” or “I am this mind” or “I am this soul” hides the true unlimited consciousness.)

Astoma sat gamaya.*****************

What does the above mean?

************Re ( In this regard can you prove to yourself, a soul independent of Lord?)

not independent but dependent.***********

Ok, show me the dependent soul.

******Re (The so-called soul is nothing but the manas – which again is nothing but consciousness limited by the Lord to know the Self.)

So the lord limits the consciousness to know the self this does not make sense.***********

It makes great sense as below.

BU

1.4.10. Verily in the beginning this was Brahman, that Brahman knew (its) Self only, saying, 'I am Brahman.' From it all this sprang. Thus, whatever Deva was awakened (so as to know Brahman), he indeed became that (Brahman); and the same with Rishis and men. The Rishivamadeva saw and understood it, singing,'I was Manu (moon), I was the sun.' Therefore now also he who thus knows that he is Brahman, becomes all this, and even the Devas cannot prevent it, for he himself is their Self.

Repeat: Thus, whatever Deva was awakened (so as to know Brahman), he indeed became that (Brahman); and the same with Rishis and men.

********Re --------- The delusion is that the mind is independently intelligent.

Then it does not make sense of the creation. And I think we are giving too many different meaning to the mind.*************************

Mind is consciousness limited by upadhis. And consciousness is of Lord alone.

*****************((Whose mind?****************************))

Re

(Finally there is no mind. It is a notion in consciousness.)

See what I mean above.***************************************

Yes, I see it very well. There is no mind as stand alone or even dependent entity. Mind is consciousness limited by upadhis. And consciousness is of Lord alone.

*********Re (Shruti evidences have been posted above. Mahavakyas are there. Only thing is that our views can be faulty.)

Those evidence are subject of deduction and not directly refuting i.**************

One can deduce anything to create contradictions from verse to verse. And those who vouch by existense of a small i, have much more to explain.

With “i” remaining one can be happy but will take re birth as Chitraketu did.

**********Re (Yes, a mistake. Lord’s sakti does it without motivation.)

I cant see any thing happening without reason. *******************

Yes, that is the point. What reason Lord has to create a world full of misery? Full of rapists, arsonists, thieves, wars, tsunami etc.

***********Re (Bliss is not an object to be chased. It is the real “I”. You are that bliss. Know the OM.)

Knowing the Om will give me bliss, I am not that Om.****************

You have got me wrong here. I simply make my mind prostrate to my life force – who is real OM. My life force is real and not this so-called individuality. The individuality is impostor. The life force, which is fragment of Rudra and so-called individuality which is fragment of Krishna are not different. The body boundaries are maya, created by amsha nature (conditioned nature) of so-callede individual soul. And I believe Lord Shiva when he teaches Vashistha that the conditioning is Maya.

When one realizes that one is not the body, then all these so-called amshas coalesce.

BU

1.4.7. Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form and name, ------

He (Brahman or the Self) entered thither, to the very tips of the finger-nails, as a razor might be fitted in a razor-case, or as fire in a fire-place.

He cannot be seen, for, in part only, when breathing, he is breath by name; when speaking, speech by name; when seeing, eye by name; when hearing, ear by name; when thinking, mind by name. All these are but the names of his acts. And he who worships (regards) him as the the other, does not know him, ----- Let men worship him as Self, for in the Self all these are one. This Self is the footstep of everything, for through it one knows everything. And as one can find again by footsteps what was lost, thus he who knows this finds glory and praise.

Repeat: “---he who worships (regards) him as the other, does not know him,----“

*************Now, it is my turn to query. What is individuality?

mamaivamso jiva-loke

jiva-bhutah sanatanah

manah-sasthanindriyani

prakrti-sthani karsati bg15.7

I have not given any translation but for me two words are very important amso and sanatanh.

Amso is fragment and sanatanah is immortal or eternal.

Now, you have several times mentioned that “I am not the body”. So, what separates the “immortal fragment of Lord that is in you” from “the Lord”, if the body is not you? Actually none of us have overcome the body sense, so we do not perceive and cannot even imagine yuktatma.

7.18 Udaaraah sarva evaite jnaanee twaatmaiva me matam;

Aasthitah sa hi yuktaatmaa maamevaanuttamaam gatim.

7.18. Noble indeed are all these; but I deem the wise man as My very Self (yuktatma); for, steadfast in mind, he is established in Me alone as the supreme goal.

**********Re (Yes, Atma is eternal and faultless. But is the individuality fault less? What is not fault less cannot be Brahman. And nothing is outside Brahman. Do you get it? The apparent fault is the imagination and Maya. It has no real existence and is just a notion which has to be dropped.)

The individuality covered by maya in this bhovtik world is faulty not because he is individual but because he is deluded by ignorance. ------- maya.************

Very good. So, you mean that on removal of Maya the individual also will become perfect. That is perfect. We do not have any point of difference.

**********Re (There are scriptures which say that individuality is the illusion. At this stage we have to take cognizance of these verses and not forget these or ignore. Later all learning gets smoothened.)

Either the illusion is of the lord or of the individual, please tell me whose?**********

Accept either that Lord creates a faulty world full of misery or accept that it is inherent property of consciousness to get deluded and also to get enlightened. Choose any one.

BU

------- Thus, whatever Deva was awakened (so as to know Brahman), he indeed became that (Brahman); and the same with Rishis and men.-----------------

************KATH U IV, 14-15

14. As water descending on mountain crags

wastes its energies among the gullies,

so he who views things as separate

wastes his energies in their pursuit.

So do not think your self different from the lord in quality or else meeting is like mud and water.***************************

Re (15. But as pure water poured into pure

becomes the selfsame--wholly pure,

so too becomes the self of the silent sage,

of the one, O Gautama, who has understanding.)

My understanding is only pure can meet the pure otherewise there is no meeting point,

Or else the water becomes impure

So only one who has an understanding of the self can become pure. Remember Brahman is always pure.**************************

Now we agree but no, understanding cannot reach him. It is realization or direct experience. One in many millions. Sankalpa free, mind free, always absorbed in HIM.

***********Re (Note: The maya is the feeling that “one is not That”. This is the imagination which has to be dropped.)

Actually maya is the feeling one is that, that which it is not.*****************

Which “one” you are referring to? The small maya deluded self or the liberated self (you only said above that individuality is perfect sans the Maya)? So, when Maya is removed, individual soul also becomes perfect. That is all we need. Where is the problem?

January 8, 2005

This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21

Now will you please tell me: What can be manifest in this “un-manifest state, individuality?

18.20 Sarvabhooteshu yenaikam bhaavamavyayameekshate;

Avibhaktam vibhakteshu tajjnaanam viddhi saattwikam.

18.20 That by which one sees the one undivided undecaying Reality in all beings, not separate in all the separate beings—know thou that knowledge to be Sattwic (pure).

18.21 Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan; Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

18.21 But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

These are the contradictions I was talking about. If amsha is eternally separate and different then above two verses are wrong.

January 8, 2005

This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21

Now will you please tell me: What can be manifest in this “un-manifest state, individuality?

the state is called unmanifest making the comparison with the matter. God is not subjected to maya, so he's not personally manifest in the conditionated state of life, because he's never conditionated..

the demonstration that the lord is personally unmanifest in the maya's world but absolutely manifest in the spiritual one is the use of the phrase "Those who reach My Supreme abode"..

why krsna has not continued with the "unmanifest's" style and he speaks of various individualities, places and actions with "those", "reaching", "my", "supreme", "abode"?

why he simply has not said something like "merging"or "melting"?

January 8, 2005

How long will you try to close your eyes like a pigeon which closes its eyes when confronted by a cat? You are deluding your self alone.

Why do you harp on merging and merging? How do I know what happens when one attains the supreme blissful unmanifest Brahman?

Jai Ganesh

Taittreya U.

II-vii-1: In the beginning all this was the Unmanifested (Brahman). From that emerged the manifested. That Brahman created Itself by Itself. Therefore It is called the self-creator.

That which is known as the self-creator is verily the source of joy; for one becomes happy by coming in contact with that source of joy. Who, indeed, will inhale, and who will exhale, if this Bliss be not there in the supreme space (within the heart). This one, indeed, enlivens (people). For whenever an aspirant gets fearlessly established in this un-perceivable, bodiless, inexpressible, and un-supporting Brahman, he reaches the state of fearlessness. For, whenever the aspirant creates the slightest difference in It, he is smitten with fear. Nevertheless, that very Brahman is a terror to the (so-called) learned man who lacks the unitive outlook.

Illustrative of this is this verse here:

II-viii-1-4: Out of His fear the Wind blows. Out of fear the Sun rises. Out of His fear runs Fire, as also Indra, and Death, the fifth.

II-viii-5: He that is here in the human person, and He that is there in the sun, are one.

He who knows thus attains, after desisting from this world, this self made of food, attains this self made of vital force, attains this self made of mind, attains this self made of intelligence, attains this self made of bliss.

Sadjyota namoh

January 8, 2005

III-x-3-4: Brahman is to be worshipped as fame in beasts; as light in the stars; as procreation, immortality, and joy in the generative organ; as everything in space. One should meditate on that Brahman as the support; thereby one becomes supported. One should meditate on that Brahman as great; thereby one becomes great. One should meditate on It as thinking; thereby one becomes able to think. One should meditate on It as bowing down; thereby the enjoyable things bow down to one. One should meditate on It as the most exalted; Thereby one becomes exalted. One should meditate on It as Brahman’s medium of destruction; thereby the adversaries that envy such a one die, and so do the enemies whom this one dislikes.

This being that is in the human, and the being that is there in the sun are one.

January 8, 2005

Om Vinayaka namah Om

I replied staying awake yesterday night and re read your post in the morning.

************KATH U IV, 14-15

14. As water descending on mountain crags

wastes its energies among the gullies,

so he who views things as separate

wastes his energies in their pursuit.

So do not think your self different from the lord in quality or else meeting is like mud and water.***************************

Yes, you force me to agree.

Taittreya U.

II-viii-5: He that is here in the human person, and He that is there in the sun, are one. He who knows thus attains, after desisting from this world, this self made of food, attains this self made of vital force, attains this self made of mind, attains this self made of intelligence, attains this self made of bliss.

**********************

Re (15. But as pure water poured into pure

becomes the selfsame--wholly pure,

so too becomes the self of the silent sage,

of the one, O Gautama, who has understanding.)

My understanding is only pure can meet the pure otherewise there is no meeting point,

Or else the water becomes impure

So only one who has an understanding of the self can become pure. Remember Brahman is always pure.**************************

We agree.

***********Re (Note: The maya is the feeling that “one is not That”. This is the imagination which has to be dropped.)

Actually maya is the feeling one is that, that which it is not.*****************

Beautiful. Maya is the feeling one is that, that which it is not.

Taittreya U.

II-viii-5: He that is here in the human person, and He that is there in the sun, are one.

January 8, 2005

Why do you ignore these verses?

18.20 Sarvabhooteshu yenaikam bhaavamavyayameekshate;

Avibhaktam vibhakteshu tajjnaanam viddhi saattwikam.

18.20 That by which one sees the one undivided undecaying Reality in all beings, not separate in all the separate beings—know thou that knowledge to be Sattwic (pure).

18.21 Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan; Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

18.21 But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

January 8, 2005

"How long will you try to close your eyes like a pigeon which closes its eyes when confronted by a cat? You are deluding your self alone."

i made an objection.. you have no answer.. who's deluding?

"How do I know what happens when one attains the supreme blissful unmanifest Brahman?"

so why are you bothering ourselves with your theoric explanations? first experience then preach

Ganeshprasad · January 8, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Re

(Individuality becoming perfect day by day)

Well that is idea.

Re

(Very good. So, you mean that on removal of Maya the individual also will become perfect. That is perfect. We do not have any point of difference.)

we have a lot in common, only difference is in our understanding and experince.

please do not mind the distrections from others everything happens for the best and it makes a better person out of us.

there is a lot for me to read and contemplate

ksipram bhavati dharmatma

sasvac-chantim nigacchati

kaunteya pratijanihi

na me bhaktah pranasyati

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad · January 8, 2005

Jai Ganesh

This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21

Re

(Now will you please tell me: What can be manifest in this “un-manifest state, individuality?)

Lords supreme abode that which is avyaktah in this human existence.

18.20 Sarvabhooteshu yenaikam bhaavamavyayameekshate;

Avibhaktam vibhakteshu tajjnaanam viddhi saattwikam.

18.20 That by which one sees the one undivided undecaying Reality in all beings, not separate in all the separate beings—know thou that knowledge to be Sattwic (pure).

Undivided, yet appears as if divided in beings; He, the object of knowledge, is the creator, sustainer, and destroyer of (all) beings. (13.16)

18.21 Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan; Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

18.21 But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

Re

(These are the contradictions I was talking about. If amsha is eternally separate and different then above two verses are wrong. )

Contradiction are in our understanding, parmAtma resides in the heart of us all, we are his creation therefore all of us has that common bond.

A rajsik person does not see the lord in all he is selfish and thinks he is this body.

Jai Shree Krishna

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