Why we need Bharat a Vedic (Hindu) State

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

Re

 

(my initial debate was not with you.. but with madhaav who has proposed to stop or put aside chanting.. even you have objected...)

 

If you want I stop.

You are doging answer my question.

 

Re

(arjuna act in a dharmic way because his mind is absorbed in transcendence... if he were not surrendered to krsna he were simply a sinner and he should have had to pay all the karma for having killed millions of people)

 

In other words every thing most of do is adharma I know I am not in transcendence.

Why did Krishna asked pandavas to atone and pray to lord Shiva after the war?

 

 

 

you have still not answer my question are you free from maya?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

"you have still not answer my question are you free from maya?"

 

are you planning to become my disciple?

 

:-)

 

[maadhav 0]

<< the act is never dharmic if the one who makes it is not situated in transcendence..>>

 

this is not quite right, is debatable.

 

are you situated in it?

 

why you think others here are not?

-----

 

ajaamil was not a devotee.

at the time of death he called his son - narayana.

and vishu dutas came and saved him from yama dootas.

 

any person, of any verna, if he/she follows krishna's advise faithfully, then that is dharma.

 

whether you know the properties of fire or not,

it would burn you if you touch it.

same for dharma karma.

you do it, and you benefit from it,

even if you do not understnad what you are doing.

 

e.g. charity.

even a greatest sinner could do it,

and benefit from that dharma karma.

even if he belives it is waste of money,

it will still benefit him, more or less spiritually.

 

so, in hinduism dharma karma is for all to do.

 

krishna and scriptures say that the six types of aatataayis must be killed; or one must protect one's home or country from asuras.

 

any one who has faith in krishna can do it, transcendece or not. it needs faith. the transcendentalists do not hold monopoly on dharma karma. and your xian mind still is trying to claim monopoly on dharma karma.

 

kaunteya pratijaani hi

na me bhaktah pranashyat

 

He does not say only the uttama adhikari bhakta will not persih. all bhaktas, including a moodha bhakta too.

 

do it for krishna - .. tat kurushv mad arpana.

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

"you have still not answer my question are you free from maya?"

Re

(are you planning to become my disciple?)

 

:-)

 

do you always answer with a question?

I need a honest answer to my simple question, you have made a big claim here so answer here with honesty are you free from maya?

Truthfulness is one of the four pillars of Dharma

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

you want simply play with words to say that even if one is not completely realized he can act and do something good.... and i agree

 

but leaders have to be perfectly realized and there's no hope to do something good if it is propagandized :"let us put aside spirituality, now there's to act"

 

all the debate comes from the fact that madhaav has his political programs and he should want that spiritualist follow him instead of following spiritualists that it is the dharmic way of life

 

a ksatrya asks permission to brahmanas... and if brahmanas do not give it he does not protext

 

the fact is simply that all this new hindu integralism is simply considered adharmic by many spiritual authorities... anche the integralists,instead of thinking about it and reconsider their position (wich is the DHARMA) are fantasizing about solutions to bypass the advices of gurus, sannyasis, devotees and so on

 

one of the greatest effort of madhaav is to delegitimate gaudya sampradaya because it does not support his political agenda

 

is this dharmic? how can we build bharatavarsa with such asuric way of thinking? why the new asuras are better than the old asuras?

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

Re

(you want simply play with words to say that even if one is not completely realized he can act and do something good.... and i agree)

 

who is playing with words? Who is dodging the question asked? let me remind you what you wrote in reply to my statement.

I stated Vedic dharma is very peaceful, protecting and practicing it will bring the peace.

Before one can remove the veil of maya one needs to practice dharma in peace, to go to desire destination.

 

Your reply --how can you know what's dharma and what's peace without removing maya's veil? how can a blind man have a vision of dharma?

 

What you fail to understand is when a child starts school he/she does not know a thing but gets the knowledge there in the school.

With spiritual life it is the same we are for ever learning with grace of god the veil of maya is removed.

The Lord says those who are on path of self realization there is no loss even after death they start from where they left off.

 

So I ask you again are you free from maya?

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

I stated Vedic dharma is very peaceful, protecting and practicing it will bring the peace.

--so let us practice without interrupting the practice for politics

 

Before one can remove the veil of maya one needs to practice dharma in peace, to go to desire destination.

--if you do not remove the veil, you cannot see what's dharmic and what's peaceful

 

What you fail to understand is when a child starts school he/she does not know a thing but gets the knowledge there in the school.

--so keep the schools open and get advice from masters .. and be humble when they say that you are wrong

 

So I ask you again are you free from maya?

--who is not free, if he's truthful, he will say to you that he's not free, who is free is humble and he'll say to you that he's the lowest of worms

 

so your question is useless

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

You do know how to stick to the point don’t you.

 

 

Re

(--so let us practice without interrupting the practice for politics)

 

Yes let us practice in peace I am all for it, but if someone comes and want to disrupt your practice and rob you, you do not do anything that is sure recipe for disaster, this is how Bharat was enslaved.

 

 

Re

(--if you do not remove the veil, you cannot see what's dharmic and what's peaceful)

 

Now you have changed your answer you are not accusing me of being blind, so my question is how do you remove the veil without following dharma?

 

 

What you fail to understand is when a child starts school he/she does not know a thing but gets the knowledge there in the school.

Re

(--so keep the schools open and get advice from masters .. and be humble when they say that you are wrong)

 

it would be nice if you can keep to the context of discussion, your accusation has no valid reason.

 

re

(--who is not free, if he's truthful, he will say to you that he's not free, who is free is humble and he'll say to you that he's the lowest of worms)

 

In either way you will never know for sure.

 

Re

 

(so your question is useless)

 

Your accusations are baseless

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

if someone comes and want to disrupt your practice and rob you

--you are not speaking of simple personal defense... you are speaking of organized political actions. And someone wants during these actions to stop spiritual practices

 

Now you have changed your answer you are not accusing me of being blind

--if you want to put politics over religion it is blindness

 

so my question is how do you remove the veil without following dharma?

--no possibility

 

it would be nice if you can keep to the context of discussion, your accusation has no valid reason.

--the context of discussion is that someone wants to stop spiritual practices for the purpose to bring back spirituality.. thing that's foolish

 

In either way you will never know for sure.

--so why ask?

 

Your accusations are baseless

--no.. they are based on what has been said in this thread :

"If all people just chant and do nothing, it is not possible to achieve such a state/rashtra and culture.

Obviously, chanting is of second priority in this time of terrorism and when the vedic land is infested with anti-vedic elements."

 

that's absolutely asuric... and i wonder why are you defending such position only to keep the party together

 

wake up

 

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

If someone comes and want to disrupt your practice and rob you

 

Re

(--you are not speaking of simple personal defense... you are speaking of organized political actions. And someone wants during these actions to stop spiritual practices)

 

Same difference personal or organized if the enemy is strong and organized you has no choice but to organize. In fact we should redouble our spiritual practice as well as protecting the dharma.in this instance maadhav is wrong to suggest we stop our spiritual practice, but his concern is well justified therefor we should act to stem the flow of asuric ideology that is trying to engulf our Vedic land.

 

Re

(--if you want to put politics over religion it is blindness)

 

If you remain indifferent to politics that infringes your freedom that will be costly we Hindu know the cost over thousand years of misery. One thing we did not stop was our Dharma practice so your assumption is baseless.

 

So my question is how do you remove the veil without following Dharma?

Re

(--no possibility)

 

No possibility of what removing the veil or following the Dharma or both?

 

It would be nice if you can keep to the context of discussion; your accusation has no valid reason.

RE

(--the context of discussion is that someone wants to stop spiritual practices for the purpose to bring back spirituality.. thing that's foolish)

 

I meant flow of our discussion, the line of my question to you.

 

In either way you will never know for sure.

Re

(--so why ask?)

 

It was your own statement that prompted me to ask.

 

 

 

 

 

Re

(--no.. they are based on what has been said in this thread :

"If all people just chant and do nothing, it is not possible to achieve such a state/rashtra and culture.)

 

If you read better the operative word is if do nothing.

 

 

Re

 

 

(that's absolutely asuric... and i wonder why are you defending such position only to keep the party together)

 

I have said this many times I do not belong to any party nor have I asked anyone to stop chanting or Dharma worship.

 

Re

(wake up)

 

Yes wake up, we all must both to do our worship as well as protecting what we cherish, our Dharma

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

in this instance maadhav is wrong to suggest we stop our spiritual practice, but his concern is well justified therefor we should act to stem the flow of asuric ideology that is trying to engulf our Vedic land

••the problem is that the words "asuric" and "vedic" are about spirituality. If you simply say "i want to make a nation free from.. something" this is not a spiritual goal. But if you say "i want to bring back dharma", you cannot do it without practicing dharma.

So one who does not pray but fight for dharma, he's fighting for his personal advantage and he will not bring any dharma but adharma.. an asura in substitution of other asuras

 

If you remain indifferent to politics

••any action has to be backed by spiritual practice...

 

I have said this many times I do not belong to any party nor have I asked anyone to stop chanting or Dharma worship.

••so what's your problem?

 

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(••the problem is that the words "asuric" and "vedic" are about spirituality. If you simply say "i want to make a nation free from.. something" this is not a spiritual goal. But if you say "i want to bring back dharma", you cannot do it without practicing dharma.)

 

You are simply playing with words, to facilitate the practice of dharma and a person who follow, both benefit, one who help build a temple and one who benefit from it and does not appreciate the sacrifice of the helper is simply a selfish person.

 

Re

(So one who does not pray but fight for dharma, he's fighting for his personal advantage and he will not bring any dharma but adharma.. an asura in substitution of other asuras)

 

Fighting to protect the Dharma is in it self a worship. What personal advantages one can derive from fighting the cause of Vedic people. It is sacrifice at an expense of ones own spiritual advancement for the benefit of others that can follow without any hindrance or being ridiculed in your own house if may add.

 

Re

(••any action has to be backed by spiritual practice...)

 

Any action has equal and opposite reaction, vedas enjoy us to protect the dharma.

 

 

I have said this many times I do not belong to any party nor have I asked anyone to stop chanting or Dharma worship.

Re

(••so what's your problem?)

 

Problem is you fail to acknowledge there are forces out there who is hell bent to stop you do your chanting and worship. Maaadhav and likes are doing their best to warn you of this danger. You want to remain blind to these facts so instead of helping you ridicule them and call them asuric. Well stop sitting on the fence, declare your allegiances are you with the Vedic people or are you with these asuric forces?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

one who help build a temple and one who benefit from it and does not appreciate the sacrifice of the helper is simply a selfish person

--to know how to build a temple is a brahminic business. You know vastu shastra, archana and so on.. who builds a temple and who prays in the temple is the same cathegory of people.

So who wants to build the dharmic indian nation cannot neglect to cultivate spiritual knowledge, or he is simply a puppet, a robot. One has to know the reasons to do the things, to be conscious of what he's doing, otherwise he's ignorant. And an ignorant cannot bring back the dharma

 

Fighting to protect the Dharma is in it self a worship.

--action comes by mind, if mind is enlightened by spiritual consciousness actions are dharmic, if not they are asuric

 

What personal advantages one can derive from fighting the cause of Vedic people.

--who is spiritually ignorant fights for many reasons, women, power, money... only if he's spiritually advanced and if he accepts the guidance of spiritual authorities instead of wanting to conditionate and to put aside them, he is really doing something for vedic consciousness.

Otherwise it is only a label... bin laden puts the red moon on the flag, we put tilaka or OM and the result is the same

 

Any action has equal and opposite reaction, vedas enjoy us to protect the dharma.

--so we have to be very conscious of vedic spirituality before deciding to protect it. If someone's planning to stop spirituality to fight, how can people know what is fighting for?

 

Problem is you fail to acknowledge there are forces out there who is hell bent to stop you do your chanting and worship.

--it seems to me that not only muslims wants me stopping the worship, but also people who claims to be protectors of my worship

 

you ridicule them and call them asuric

--i see asuric systems to fight asuras so i consider it terrific and useless

 

Well stop sitting on the fence, declare your allegiances are you with the Vedic people or are you with these asuric forces?

--i am with vedic people... but true vedic people, not hindu fanatics who do not understand that dharma starts from heart and consciousness, and if there's no consciousness no action is dharmic,even if it is done for dharma

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

 

(So who wants to build the dharmic indian nation cannot neglect to cultivate spiritual knowledge, or he is simply a puppet, a robot. One has to know the reasons to do the things, to be conscious of what he's doing, otherwise he's ignorant. And an ignorant cannot bring back the dharma)

 

And I haven’t said any thing to contrary, you are assuming Indians are ignorant, what ever we want to do even for religion is born out of ignorance, that your understanding and stinks.

 

 

Fighting to protect the Dharma is in it self a worship.

Re

(--action comes by mind, if mind is enlightened by spiritual consciousness actions are dharmic, if not they are asuric)

 

well spoken accept you forget asuras never protect dharma they always destroy dharma.

 

Re

(--who is spiritually ignorant fights for many reasons, women, power, money... only if he's spiritually advanced and if he accepts the guidance of spiritual authorities instead of wanting to conditionate and to put aside them, he is really doing something for vedic consciousness.)

 

I agree those who are spiritually ignorant do all those thing you mention, you are insulting a lot of Hindus here, you forget Hindu is a way of life we abide in dharma, no religion on this earth is more god fearing or tolerant then us, any other place you would be hounded out by now. You accuse of spiritually blind as well as ignorant and for that I thank you.

Re

(Otherwise it is only a label... bin laden puts the red moon on the flag, we put tilaka or OM and the result is the same)

 

You name me one person of bin laden standard that is a hindu or else stop your malicious propaganda.

 

 

Re

(--so we have to be very conscious of vedic spirituality before deciding to protect it. If someone's planning to stop spirituality to fight, how can people know what is fighting for?)

 

If some one wants to protect dharma it can not be anything other then love for it.

 

 

Problem is you fail to acknowledge there are forces out there who is hell bent to stop you do your chanting and worship.

Re

(--it seems to me that not only muslims wants me stopping the worship, but also people who claims to be protectors of my worship)

 

I can assure you no hindu will stop your chanting yes not even maadhav.

 

Re

(--i see asuric systems to fight asuras so i consider it terrific and useless)

 

Your sight is prejudiced.

 

Re

(--i am with vedic people... but true vedic people, not hindu fanatics who do not understand that dharma starts from heart and consciousness, and if there's no consciousness no action is dharmic,even if it is done for dharma )

 

My only request is stop calling hindus fanatics, these are two opposite if you are a hindu you can not be fanatic and if you are fanatic you are not a hindu.

Any thing done for dharma can never be adharma, Krishna says even a little acharan in this will save one from a bigger tragedy.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

"you are assuming Indians are ignorant......."

--naah... you are not serious in discussing

 

what ever we want to do even for religion is born out of ignorance

--you cannot do anything for religion if you are not religious...because it is religion who teachs you what to do. No religion? no religious acts but only demoniac acts

 

well spoken accept you forget asuras never protect dharma they always destroy dharma

--so do not attempt to destroy dharma in saying that one can act in adharmic way without cultivating dharma...

 

I agree those who are spiritually ignorant do all those thing you mention, you are insulting a lot of Hindus here

--again you do not want to discuss seriously.... i have said simply that who acts whitout spiritual guidance is blind and he cannot do any good..even if he has the best intentions to work for bringing back dharma

 

You name me one person of bin laden standard that is a hindu or else stop your malicious propaganda.

--very sad.. you have no will to make a serious discussion

 

If some one wants to protect dharma it can not be anything other then love for it.

--dharma has to be known and practiced... otherwise to love and protect it is meaningless and surely the result is protecting adharma

 

Problem is you fail to acknowledge there are forces out there who is hell bent to stop you do your chanting and worship.

--i recognize it... but i am not sure if my protectors are better than the oppressors.. the claim "let us stop worshiping and let us fight.." demonstrates something

 

I can assure you no hindu will stop your chanting yes not even maadhav.

--so why preach and sustain this nonsense?

 

My only request is stop calling hindus fanatics, these are two opposite if you are a hindu you can not be fanatic and if you are fanatic you are not a hindu.

--no problem.. so i am with vedic people and not with people who apply themselves the hindu name but they are only dangerous fanatics

(hindu, in arab or turk language means "beyond the sindhu river"... so it is not a sacred name or it does not means something religious. There's good and bad people beyond the sindhu river.. religious and atheist, dharmic and asuric, sober and fanatic... as all over the world)

 

Any thing done for dharma can never be adharma

--again... to act for dharma it is necessary to learn from a spiritual guide what's dharma and to practice constantly to keep this consciousness

 

to say "i do it for dharma..." is not enough, it is very difficult to understand how to act in a dharmic way.. only real spiritualists can teach it..but your company wants to put them aside to act for dharma..

 

sad and funny at the same time

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(--naah... you are not serious in discussing)

 

Fact is you can not defend your statement directly, when challenged you resort to changing the flow of discussion. You call us blind ignorant and every thing you can throw at us, you find us funny and sad.

Every thing I have said, and never at any stage, to abandon Dharma, you have always found it necessary to find a negative in that Just as Krishna says even the fire however pure it is, it has a bad quality of smoke, you keep seeing the smoke good luck.

 

You my dear sir an erudite know it all person who thinks only you and your organization has the monopoly to know Dharma rest of us are bereft of any spiritual guide and therefor ignorant and blind sad and funny.

Well you are welcome to think what you like.We will carry on what we see fit in executing our Dharma as well as protecting it

 

Re

(hindu, in arab or turk language means "beyond the sindhu river"... so it is not a sacred name or it does not means something religious. There's good and bad people beyond the sindhu river.. religious and atheist, dharmic and asuric, sober and fanatic... as all over the world)

 

Never written in any dictionary, no one can say for sure how the word Hindu has come about, but it sure is identification for the followers of sanatan Dharma so weather you apply that in your practice or not has no significant to me, what ever denomination you follow you will find it is not free from faults.

The garden is not all rosy, the ugly weeds pops up every where, you tend to concentrate on weeds good luck such is the nature of this world nothing is perfect just as Krishna says nothing is without blemish

 

One's natural work, even though defective, should not be abandoned; because all undertakings are enveloped by defects as fire is covered by smoke, O Arjuna. (18.48)

 

Re

(sad and funny at the same time )

 

Sadder then funny, the joke is always at somebody else’s expanse.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

`

 

[Guest guest]

Fact is you can not defend your statement directly, when challenged you resort to changing the flow of discussion.

--it is not my duty to defend myself from unjustified accusations...

 

You call us blind ignorant and every thing you can throw at us, you find us funny and sad.

--again... you are not serious, you have no will to exchange ideas but only to try to defeat me with accusations

 

You my dear sir an erudite know it all person who thinks only you and your organization has the monopoly to know Dharma rest of us are bereft of any spiritual guide and therefor ignorant and blind sad and funny.

--no... you are simply short of logic answers... i say only that if you neglect spirituality you cannot act for dharma. This is Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna is dharmic because he's surrendered to krsna, not because he's doing something or something else

 

you tend to concentrate on weeds good luck such is the nature of this world nothing is perfect just as Krishna says nothing is without blemish

--you are speaking of bringing back adharma, not of building something material... so the action has to be perfect and transcendental.. otherwise no dharmic result is to be expected

 

One's natural work, even though defective, should not be abandoned; because all undertakings are enveloped by defects as fire is covered by smoke, O Arjuna. (18.48)

--how can we avoid the smoke? to surrender to krsna. So if you try to act without surrendering, putting aside spirituality to fight muslims, you will obtain smokeish results..

 

no doubt

 

protect dharma (=spiritual consciousness) instead of working against it