Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Hey Graham, it's not a matter of anyone justifying themselves to me or anyone else. Hannah, I'm sure can speak up for herself. What are we doing in this group if we shouldn't talk to each other? So it gets a little tense now and then. I think that's ok because we are discussing things that are important to us. This is why we're here. Sometimes it's not so easy to communicate but I think it's better than watching reruns of Baywatch. I wonder though what David Hasselhoff would say about all this? Is it true that he's a famous rock star in Europe? Brad - Lesley Dove Friday, July 12, 2002 1:59 PM RE: Re: Marrying meaties Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to understand if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, could you be happy with one who would not raise your kids vegan? Lesley quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]12 July 2002 18:50 Subject: Re: Marrying meatiesHey hannah, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, no matter what Brad might think about that...Graham> Also, for those who are uneasy about co-habitating with a 'meatie', I look at it this way. Before I met my husband he was a real meat and potato man, but now he eats a LOT less meat, if only by the virture that I cook the meals (I love to cook). That is saving at least a couple of cows/pigs/chickens a year. These animals are saved by our union-we are saving them together. If I was with someone who would be vegan regardless of me, and he was with another meateater, then he would probably never been exposed to the veg. lifestyle and would have kept on eating lots of meat. Yeah, I know it would save a lot more if he didn't eat any meat at all, but every little bit helps. > info/terms/> .To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Have you never seen Dr.Who or heard of the Daleks? The Daleks ARE human destrying robots. Lets get those suckers out to do their Jobs ! Men don't mind at all if a woman makes the first move. What probably was going on there was that the vegan men you approached simply weren't attracted to you or they were gay. That's why you were rejected. Now you know what men have to go through all the time being the ones' who are always supposed to make the first move. We get rejected and crapped on regularly but like the Eveready Bunny we keep going and going and going...... Brad - EBbrewpunx Friday, July 12, 2002 12:49 PM RE: Marrying meaties love...logic?lesley is vulcan!:)luv isn't logical dear..its love..its an emotion..pure and simple...who can predict that? sure, you can try and shape it, ignore it, bend it, but you can't change it...people are attracted to each other fer a whole variety of reasons, some fer this, some fer that...the bloody miracle of the brain and hormones...when is someone gonna make those humna destroying robots anyways? maybe they are hiding in the forests of canada....cheersfraggle"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>>Some vegans (women more than the men from what I've noticed when this debate>comes up) are certainly very illogical when it comes to who they falling in>love with. My attitude is more like yours and Angie's as you know.>>My husband and I agree that one of us wanting to start eating animals again>would constitute evidence of serious mental illness in our case!>>When I was young and single (and I was not too fat and unattractive, believe>it or not 15 years ago) I was turned down a few times by vegan men of around>my age when I asked them out, that was bloody humiliating. I only ever asked>out a few over the years, just those who seemed compatible, and I felt I>would definitely click with (no smokers for instance). I was just good>friends with my now husband for years when he smoked and could not see>myself attracted to him until he quit, which he did. I think the ones who>turned me down probably didn't like women who made the first move, that's>the only reason I can come up with, because I was really quite logical about>it, so I only asked out someone if he clearly seemed suitable. I didn't like>the idea of trying to meet someone by going and chatting to strangers in>places where most people met other people, bars and stuff, you never know>what weirdoes there are out there! Instead I looked in veggie/vegan social>and AR campaigning groups, and to some point green and peace groups where>there were quite a few veggies and vegans, it seemed logical and safe to me.>But not always easy to find Mr Right nevertheless.>>My first husband was veggie and did go vegan for a time for me, but we>split, partly because he was not open about not being sure how he felt about>having kids though until after I said I felt I was ready to try for a baby.>>Lesley>> > kiwi2000 [kiwi2000]> 12 July 2002 01:46> > Re: Marrying meaties>>> I think you're both just fooling yourselves. You could love anyone or>anything. It's all the same right?> It doesn't seem to matter to either of you what another person holds as>being important to them.> You'll love them no matter who they are or what they do. Being part of>murdering innocent animals> obviously doesn't stop you from loving someone.> I wonder what would?> -> Trusty, Hannah> Heartwork ; > Thursday, July 11, 2002 3:31 PM> RE: Marrying meaties>>>> Jo,> Thanks for the support. It's nice to know that someone else feels that>way.>> Hannah>>> >>How could you possibly offend anyone by being loving? You should be> proud> of yourself. If my husband wanted to eat meat I would still love him> the> same. Wacky lifestyles can be fun - and that's what life should be.>>>>>> ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> <http://www.grisoft.com).>> Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02>>> To send an email to - >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 People don't only fall in love with their hearts. Their heads have something to do with it. Things like respect, admiration, love of soemone's values and character. These things matter. It's not just what's between your legs. (I hope). If that were true people would fall for people they couldn't really stand all the time. After lust was satisfied there wouldn't be anything to hold the relationship together. Brad - Lesley Dove Friday, July 12, 2002 1:01 PM RE: Marrying meaties Nope I am far too emotional to be a Vulcan, I FELT as well as THOUGHT that I could not have fallen for an animal eater. Made sense both practically and emotionally to specifically seek out someone ethically compatible. Lots of vegan women don't and they wonder why it causes arguments later if they have kids, and he is not happy about her raising them vegan. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]12 July 2002 17:49 Subject: RE: Marrying meatieslove...logic?lesley is vulcan!:)luv isn't logical dear..its love..its an emotion..pure and simple...who can predict that? sure, you can try and shape it, ignore it, bend it, but you can't change it...people are attracted to each other fer a whole variety of reasons, some fer this, some fer that...the bloody miracle of the brain and hormones...when is someone gonna make those humna destroying robots anyways? maybe they are hiding in the forests of canada....cheersfraggle"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>>Some vegans (women more than the men from what I've noticed when this debate>comes up) are certainly very illogical when it comes to who they falling in>love with. My attitude is more like yours and Angie's as you know.>>My husband and I agree that one of us wanting to start eating animals again>would constitute evidence of serious mental illness in our case!>>When I was young and single (and I was not too fat and unattractive, believe>it or not 15 years ago) I was turned down a few times by vegan men of around>my age when I asked them out, that was bloody humiliating. I only ever asked>out a few over the years, just those who seemed compatible, and I felt I>would definitely click with (no smokers for instance). I was just good>friends with my now husband for years when he smoked and could not see>myself attracted to him until he quit, which he did. I think the ones who>turned me down probably didn't like women who made the first move, that's>the only reason I can come up with, because I was really quite logical about>it, so I only asked out someone if he clearly seemed suitable. I didn't like>the idea of trying to meet someone by going and chatting to strangers in>places where most people met other people, bars and stuff, you never know>what weirdoes there are out there! Instead I looked in veggie/vegan social>and AR campaigning groups, and to some point green and peace groups where>there were quite a few veggies and vegans, it seemed logical and safe to me.>But not always easy to find Mr Right nevertheless.>>My first husband was veggie and did go vegan for a time for me, but we>split, partly because he was not open about not being sure how he felt about>having kids though until after I said I felt I was ready to try for a baby.>>Lesley>> > kiwi2000 [kiwi2000]> 12 July 2002 01:46> > Re: Marrying meaties>>> I think you're both just fooling yourselves. You could love anyone or>anything. It's all the same right?> It doesn't seem to matter to either of you what another person holds as>being important to them.> You'll love them no matter who they are or what they do. Being part of>murdering innocent animals> obviously doesn't stop you from loving someone.> I wonder what would?> -> Trusty, Hannah> Heartwork ; > Thursday, July 11, 2002 3:31 PM> RE: Marrying meaties>>>> Jo,> Thanks for the support. It's nice to know that someone else feels that>way.>> Hannah>>> >>How could you possibly offend anyone by being loving? You should be> proud> of yourself. If my husband wanted to eat meat I would still love him> the> same. Wacky lifestyles can be fun - and that's what life should be.>>>>>> ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> <http://www.grisoft.com).>> Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02>>> To send an email to - >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Lesley, I keep getting re-amazed whne you say something because it's always exactly what I would say. Brad - Lesley Dove Friday, July 12, 2002 1:59 PM RE: Re: Marrying meaties Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to understand if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, could you be happy with one who would not raise your kids vegan? Lesley quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]12 July 2002 18:50 Subject: Re: Marrying meatiesHey hannah, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, no matter what Brad might think about that...Graham> Also, for those who are uneasy about co-habitating with a 'meatie', I look at it this way. Before I met my husband he was a real meat and potato man, but now he eats a LOT less meat, if only by the virture that I cook the meals (I love to cook). That is saving at least a couple of cows/pigs/chickens a year. These animals are saved by our union-we are saving them together. If I was with someone who would be vegan regardless of me, and he was with another meateater, then he would probably never been exposed to the veg. lifestyle and would have kept on eating lots of meat. Yeah, I know it would save a lot more if he didn't eat any meat at all, but every little bit helps. > info/terms/> .To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 People change and grow in different directions. It's not always the best thing to ignore this and hang on to a relationship that is no longer appropriate. Sometimes only one partner changes and the other person tries to prevent it from happening or keep them from growing. - Janey Friday, July 12, 2002 2:12 PM Re: Re: Marrying meaties My husband is a meatie and I am a vegan. When we met I was a vegetarian and my feelings about animal cruelty and being around *meaties* weren't as strong as they are now that I'm a vegan so I had no problems marrying a meatie - I even cooked meat for him! When I became a vegan everything changed overnight. I was more aware of animal cruelty and became even more disgusted by meat. Now I don't cook meat or have anything to do with it. If it was dating now (as a vegan) I certainly wouldn't date a meatie. But yes, the issue of children is a worry. If we ever have children I couldn't feed them meat, but my husband would probably want to feed them meat. Its tough! Janey x Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to understand if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, could you be happy with one who would not raise your kids vegan? LesleyTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Good for you! Brad - " Trusty, Hannah " <hannah.trusty " Lesley Dove " <Lesley; Friday, July 12, 2002 2:10 PM RE: Re: Marrying meaties > > I took Graham's comments as supportive and I appreciate that. Also, I was just trying to explain. People can take it or leave it, I know I'm not going to change their minds-that's okay. I support the idea of marrying a fellow vegan if that's what someone wants. And as far as my own marriage goes, both my husband and I are very happy and that is all that matters. I do feel this is a good topic, because it seems to affect just about everyone at some point in their life. > > As far as kids go, there are none in my near future, but maybe someday. We've talked about it and they will be raised vegan. There won't be any meat in the house and I will tell them why it is best to be vegan. My husband supports me in this. He might eat meat outside the home, but not with the kids. My dad smoked for 23 years and I never saw him light up. It was kind of the same deal my mom and dad had about that, I guess. > > Hannah > > Lesley Dove > > 7/12/02 1:59 PM > RE: Re: Marrying meaties > > > >Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to > understand if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, > could you be happy with one who would not raise your kids vegan? > > Lesley > > > > quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett] > 12 July 2002 18:50 > > Re: Marrying meaties > > > Hey hannah, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, no matter > what Brad might think about that... > > Graham > > > > Also, for those who are uneasy about co-habitating with > a 'meatie', I look at it this way. Before I met my husband he was a > real meat and potato man, but now he eats a LOT less meat, if only > by the virture that I cook the meals (I love to cook). That is > saving at least a couple of cows/pigs/chickens a year. These > animals are saved by our union-we are saving them together. If I > was with someone who would be vegan regardless of me, and he was > with another meateater, then he would probably never been exposed to > the veg. lifestyle and would have kept on eating lots of meat. Yeah, > I know it would save a lot more if he didn't eat any meat at all, > but every little bit helps. > > > info/terms/> . > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Lesley, I 've found that single people and families don't mix well. There is an underlying fear that one's partner will flee the nest with the single friend so they are avoided and not made welcome. You're right about choosing whom you associate with. When people grow and need support for their new direction, they may need to let go of past relationships that hold them back and only reinforce the way they were and don't help them to be the new "Me". Brad - Lesley Dove Friday, July 12, 2002 2:37 PM RE: Re: Marrying meaties Not likely to be quite so bad if you get to know lots of other vegan parents in your area including some in the same position as you, married to meat-eaters. Also try to find some other vegan family-friendly people in your life, even if they don't have their own kids (or have grown up ones). You can make choices who to mix with, just ditch the people out of your life who are likely to come down on you like a ton of bricks for raising a child vegan. It's like clearing out when you move house, when you change as much as you have in a short time, it is OK to be ruthless who/what you dump for your own sanity and ease of living. Get new things/new friends, now if only implementing my own advice for myself was easy!! Easier to do it all better than I did before having kids I think. My mistake was thinking my existing vegan friends would be happy to be friends with vegan families when they were not - bad judgement that. Lesley Janey [janey]12 July 2002 19:19 Subject: Re: Re: Marrying meaties Yes, I agree Lesley. This is a worry for me. Although my husband and I don't have children right now, this is going to be a future problem if we choose to have children together. Because eating meat is considered the *norm* I would have everybody come down on me like a tonne of bricks. Probably be told I was being cruel and undernourishing my child. I can see who would win. :-( Janey x If Hannah has kids with him I wonder if he will he allow her to raise them vegan? There is no doubt that mixed relationships can be very problematic when you add children to the mix, I've seen examples of it on dozens of message boards. Lesley To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Jo, No I wasn't a vegan unitil I was 20. I was not a horrible person but I was unconscious and unthinking about the murdering of animals for food. In that sense I was a bad person. I understand that you met when you were both meaties. People change and grow in different directions. It's not always the best thing to ignore this and hang on to a relationship that is no longer appropriate. Sometimes only one partner changes and the other person tries to prevent it from happening or keep them from growing. I see that one loves another for reasons that have to do with their character, beliefs, and what they hold dear in their hearts. You love someone for who they are. These things can change over time. The changes can be ignored and an illusion, once true in the past, is held onto. To ignore such changes is to lie to oneself and die inside. Brad - Heartwork Friday, July 12, 2002 2:35 PM Re: Marrying meaties Brad You didn't answer my previous questions. Have you always been vegan or have you eaten animals at some time in your life. Most of us have eaten animals at some time in our lives, and were not totally horrible people - we just hadn't come to the ideals that we now hold dear - just as Hannah's partner hasn't. I certainly did not say I could love anyone. I have only ever loved my husband, and I cannot see that changing. It is not all the same. I fell in love with him when we both eath meat. We both gave up eating meat at the same time, but I would not have stopped loving him if he had carried on eating meat. If you think love is something that can be turned off like a tap, then I would suggest that you have never actually known love. Jo - kiwi2000 Friday, July 12, 2002 1:46 AM Re: Marrying meaties I think you're both just fooling yourselves. You could love anyone or anything. It's all the same right? It doesn't seem to matter to either of you what another person holds as being important to them. You'll love them no matter who they are or what they do. Being part of murdering innocent animals obviously doesn't stop you from loving someone. I wonder what would? - Trusty, Hannah Heartwork ; Thursday, July 11, 2002 3:31 PM RE: Marrying meaties Jo, Thanks for the support. It's nice to know that someone else feels that way.Hannah>>How could you possibly offend anyone by being loving? You should beproudof yourself. If my husband wanted to eat meat I would still love himthesame. Wacky lifestyles can be fun - and that's what life should be.---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).<http://www.grisoft.com).> Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 >What would the lie be - you eat meat I don't - doesn't seem like a lie to me. No that's just mastication. The lie is that I am aware of the greater being that connects me to all life and you are not. The lie is that I hear the cries of billions of innocent beings who die horribly every minute of every day for no good reason. The lie is that I have grown and you have not. The lie is that the love we had is no longer true or meaningful. The truth is that I need to be with people who will help me to grow into a new direction and fully be who I am and not stifle me and hold me back. The truth is that I need to share who I am at my deepest core with someone who understands who I am and who I am becoming, not who I was. Brad - Heartwork Friday, July 12, 2002 2:40 PM Re: Marrying meaties Brad >A love that's too flexible has no integrity or meaning. People love each other for real reasons >not in spite of differences but because of things they share. To ignore important differences to have >a relationship that's based on a lie. What is too flexible? What is too flexible for one maybe not be too flexible for another. People love each other for no real reason at all. Love is just love, and cannot be helped or forced. People do like to share interests, but mostly not 100%. If you have enough interests and ideals in common it is quite easy to be happy. Following your thread - would it be easy to fall in love with another vegan if you had nothing else in common at all. Would veganism be enough? To ignore important differences just proves that you love that person very much, and does not mean that a relationship is based on a lie at all. What would the lie be - you eat meat I don't - doesn't seem like a lie to me. Personally, I feel that it is a shame that Hannah has been slated on what is basically a friendly list. She has done nothing wrong, and has not even lied about her partner eating meat. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 DEATH TO ALL MEATIES!!!!!! HAIL EL SUPREMO! LET FLY THE VEGAN DEATH SQUADS! "YOU, DROP THE CHALUPA AND UP AGAINST THE WALL!" We'll have kids turning in their meaty parents. We'll have a Cow Congress and a Lamb Legislature. We'll have real Bulls running the stock market. All Animals will have guaranteed health care and their own condominiums. Dogs and Cats will each form new political parties. Animals will have their own cable channel. Animals will sue the government for reparations. - EBbrewpunx Friday, July 12, 2002 2:45 PM RE: Re: Marrying meaties maybe brad could be president of the US..we didn't elect the one we got nowadays....:)so, wot you say brad? will ya do it? as long as u realize i'm benevolent dictator fer life...fraggleel supremo grande magnifico"quercusrobur2002" <grahamburnett wrote:>because it's nobody else's business???>>Who elected Brad to be judge and jury of other people's lives?>>>>, "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:>> >> Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to >understand>> if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, could you >be happy>> with one who would not raise your kids vegan?>> >> Lesley>> >> >> quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett@b...]>> 12 July 2002 18:50>> >> Re: Marrying meaties>> >> >> Hey hannah, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, no >matter>> what Brad might think about that...>> >> Graham>> >> >> > Also, for those who are uneasy about co-habitating with>> a 'meatie', I look at it this way. Before I met my husband he >was a>> real meat and potato man, but now he eats a LOT less meat, if >only>> by the virture that I cook the meals (I love to cook). That is>> saving at least a couple of cows/pigs/chickens a year. These>> animals are saved by our union-we are saving them together. If I>> was with someone who would be vegan regardless of me, and he was>> with another meateater, then he would probably never been >exposed to>> the veg. lifestyle and would have kept on eating lots of meat. >Yeah,>> I know it would save a lot more if he didn't eat any meat at all,>> but every little bit helps.>> >>> info/terms/> .>> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 There are just as many, actually more, weirdos who eat meat. At least the weirdo who's into animal rights is trying to save lives not take them. - Heartwork Friday, July 12, 2002 2:57 PM Re: Marrying meaties Lesley >Some vegans (women more than the men from what I've >noticed when this debate comes up) are certainly very >illogical when it comes to who they falling in love with. >My attitude is more like yours and Angie's as you know. Falling love has nothing to do with logic. >My husband and I agree that one of us wanting to start >eating animals again would constitute evidence of >serious mental illness in our case! ... and is mental illness a good enough reason to withdraw your love? >I didn't like the idea of trying to meet someone by going and chatting to strangers in places where most people met other >people, bars and stuff, you never know what weirdoes there are out there! Well you don't unless you try it! >Instead I looked in veggie/vegan social and AR campaigning groups, and to some point green and peace groups where there >were quite a few veggies and vegans, it seemed logical and safe to me. I agree that is a good idea - but there are loads of weirdos into animal rights. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person you meet will be responsible and not a pervo etc. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Jo, that's an assumption on your part. Are you saying we shouldn't discuss anything because there's no guarantee that you win over the other person? Maybe we'll learn something from each other. I may tend to state my case strongly but that doesn't mean you shouldn't state yours. Brad - Heartwork Friday, July 12, 2002 3:18 PM Re: Re: Marrying meaties Lesley I would try to explain the situation only if I thought there was a chance that the person I was explaining to might understand. In this situation it would seem that there is not much chance of that, and therefore there is no need to go on trying to explain. Jo Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to understand if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, could you be happy with one who would not raise your kids vegan? Lesley quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]12 July 2002 18:50 Subject: Re: Marrying meatiesHey hannah, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, no matter what Brad might think about that...Graham> Also, for those who are uneasy about co-habitating with a 'meatie', I look at it this way. Before I met my husband he was a real meat and potato man, but now he eats a LOT less meat, if only by the virture that I cook the meals (I love to cook). That is saving at least a couple of cows/pigs/chickens a year. These animals are saved by our union-we are saving them together. If I was with someone who would be vegan regardless of me, and he was with another meateater, then he would probably never been exposed to the veg. lifestyle and would have kept on eating lots of meat. Yeah, I know it would save a lot more if he didn't eat any meat at all, but every little bit helps. > info/terms/> .To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Then why be in a a chat group? So that you can tell people you don't want to talk with them? That makes a lot of sense. Brad - Heartwork Friday, July 12, 2002 3:29 PM Re: Re: Marrying meaties Lesley but what right would we have to ask that person to explain. As Graham said, it is nobody elses business. The only time you can feel you have the right to hold people to account is if they are in a position of power (as in president/prime minister, counciller etc.) There is no reason for a normal person to have to justify their love to anyone but themselves. Why do you feel that it is our business who loves who, and why are you so sure that all men will interfere in the feeding of their children. Most men I know are trusting of their partners competence in feeding their children. Jo No-one said he was judge and jury, but you would probably expect a person to explain it if they loved someone who was an extreme right winger/Nazi, you know you would have a problem with that! What is so wrong with wanting vegans to stick together? If Hannah has kids with him I wonder if he will he allow her to raise them vegan? There is no doubt that mixed relationships can be very problematic when you add children to the mix, I've seen examples of it on dozens of message boards. Lesley quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]12 July 2002 19:06 Subject: Re: Marrying meatiesbecause it's nobody else's business???Who elected Brad to be judge and jury of other people's lives?, "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> > Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to understand> if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, could you be happy> with one who would not raise your kids vegan?> > Lesley> > > quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett@b...]> 12 July 2002 18:50> > Re: Marrying meaties> > > Hey hannah, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, no matter> what Brad might think about that...> > Graham> > > > Also, for those who are uneasy about co-habitating with> a 'meatie', I look at it this way. Before I met my husband he was a> real meat and potato man, but now he eats a LOT less meat, if only> by the virture that I cook the meals (I love to cook). That is> saving at least a couple of cows/pigs/chickens a year. These> animals are saved by our union-we are saving them together. If I> was with someone who would be vegan regardless of me, and he was> with another meateater, then he would probably never been exposed to> the veg. lifestyle and would have kept on eating lots of meat. Yeah,> I know it would save a lot more if he didn't eat any meat at all,> but every little bit helps.> >> info/terms/> .> > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 It looks to me like you already know what the answer is. You just are avoiding the issues. Why should you compromise your life by not having children and compromise your values as well for this meat eater? It doesn't sound like a match made in heaven. What is there that's worth hanging on to? Brad - Janey Friday, July 12, 2002 4:09 PM Re: Re: Marrying meaties I have medling in-laws who strongly influence my already headstrong husband. I am the vegan weirdo, don't forget, who stands out like a sore thumb in my husband's *conservative* little world. Believe me - it would be war. I've just turned 30 so I have been thinking about children a lot. But there's no way right now. So I bury the problem in the sand! Janey x It sounds like you are expecting a war that may not exist. Instead of worry about it - discuss it. JoTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Maybe it's time to remove all of these people from your life. They sound pretty horrible. Don't you have a right to be really happy having people around you that understand you and support you whom you can really love? - Janey Friday, July 12, 2002 4:26 PM Re: Re: Marrying meaties Cheers Fraggle! Mind you, you haven't met them. Mother-in-law is a dragon!A meat eating one at that!!! LOL!!!Janeyx>> well..if they do that, i'd have to say> "respect my wishes, they are my children, i'd be happy fer yer inout, but,i am raising these kids. if you continue to do this, visiting rights aredone.."> tho, i'm sure that would work as well as throwing kerosene on a fire> good luck> fraggleTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 It sounds like a very messy situation. I would choose to remove people from my life rather than deal with such weird treachery. I couldn't find a good reason to put myself or my children through this kind of upbringing. - Lesley Dove Friday, July 12, 2002 6:03 PM RE: Re: Marrying meaties Many vegan parents I've come across sadly cannot trust the grandparents and won't leave their kids in their care You will need a talk with them and lay down some ground rules! I can trust my mum to respect us as vegans but if my dad was not around to stop her, I know she would have a crafty fag around them, which I am very strongly against. Mind you my son would nag at her like crazy so it would not be worth it! I think if you want kids you should definitely not be put off from it and just do your best to raise them vegan and be firm with the grandparents over this. It's not their choice, so they frankly have no right to go against you. A compromise with your husband could be that you feed them vegan but then allow him to give them animal products only if they ask for them once they are old enough to make an informed choice on the matter (by which time you will have taught them why it is wrong, so they will hopefully decline). Lesley Janey [janey]12 July 2002 21:07 Subject: Re: Re: Marrying meaties Unfortunately Jo, I already know the answer. :-( And even if I did feed my child/ren vegan food, there's no telling what the in-laws would do behind my back! Janey - destined to keep animals and have no children!!! Why don't you ask him what he feels about it? I't's the only way you will find out - and better to tackle the problem (if indeed it turns out to be a problem) beforehand. JoTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 No you aren't a robot. I totally support what you say here. Of course we love with our brains! To love only with our loins is to be nothing more than a dog in heat. Not to put doggy down here but we as humans have a higher more evolved brain and can attain that which doggy cannot. There has to be reasons why you love someone that have to do with honor, respect, courage, intellect, spiritual understanding, talent, something that makes that person unique and raises them above the common masses. Something about them that opens your soul to new vistas infinite and expansive touching God. - Angie Wright Friday, July 12, 2002 6:14 PM RE: Marrying meaties I suppose we are very different . Love is logical to me . I love with my brain .....maybe I'm a robot ! EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] 12 July 2002 17:49 Subject: RE: Marrying meatieslove...logic?lesley is vulcan!:)luv isn't logical dear..its love..its an emotion..pure and simple...who can predict that? sure, you can try and shape it, ignore it, bend it, but you can't change it...people are attracted to each other fer a whole variety of reasons, some fer this, some fer that...the bloody miracle of the brain and hormones...when is someone gonna make those humna destroying robots anyways? maybe they are hiding in the forests of canada.... Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Is not getting to know someone logical, based in some meaning and integrity of self and values? - Peter Friday, July 12, 2002 5:41 PM Re: Marrying meaties Hi Lesley > Some vegans (women more than the men from what I've noticed when this debate comes up) are certainly very illogical when it > comes to who they falling in love with. It seems very strange that people keep talking of "logic" when it comes to love. Perhaps we should all have arranged marriages - stick our names into a database, and let that match us up with someone. You could then get married to the "logical" choice without ever having to bother going through all that tedious getting to know them business. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 What's VMM? - Lesley Dove Friday, July 12, 2002 6:33 PM RE: Marrying meaties Actually I do think that things like VMM really do help some people to get the opportunity to meet suitable people so they have more chance of finding love. Lesley Peter [snowbow]12 July 2002 22:42 Subject: Re: Marrying meaties Hi Lesley > Some vegans (women more than the men from what I've noticed when this debate comes up) are certainly very illogical when it > comes to who they falling in love with. It seems very strange that people keep talking of "logic" when it comes to love. Perhaps we should all have arranged marriages - stick our names into a database, and let that match us up with someone. You could then get married to the "logical" choice without ever having to bother going through all that tedious getting to know them business. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Is that because you are a vegan for health reasons primarily and not ethical/spiritual ones? - James & Muffy Caldwell Friday, July 12, 2002 6:20 PM Re: Marrying meaties Hannah, I'm also married to a meat-eater. We had our first anniversary last month, but I've only been strictly vegan for a few months, since I discovered that I have an egg/dairy intolerance. Sometimes it's an issue, like when we want to eat out (I can't find anything to eat at his favorite restaurants) or trying to make meals that we can share (he's wary of 'strange' new foods), but most of the time it doesn't matter. He's learning to like some of my meals, and I'm getting used to eating together but eating different things. It can work out as long as neither side gets caught up in insisting that their way is the way for everyone. I just try to stay relaxed. - Muffy - Trusty, Hannah Ian McDonald ; Thursday, July 11, 2002 7:47 AM RE: Marrying meaties >>Well, that *is* a difference. Unless the two of you are an exception tothe generalisations, he thinks you are going to hell, and you think hecauses hell for animals.>>Yup, that's a difference.Yes, we do have lots of differences. As far as the religion thing goes, I really don't think he thinks I'm going to hell. We both agreed early on that as long as we are both happy and it isn't hurting anyone, our own spirtual beliefs are our own business. In this case we are both very apathetic (sp??) but it works.As far as eating meat goes, I was only a ovo-lacto vegetarian when I met him, and more for enviornmental reasons (although, Ive always loved animals). When it finally dawned on me how much animal rights did mean to me, I became vegan and doing much more activist work. This was about four years after we started dating. So as far as the dynamics of the relationship go, I was the one who changed, not him.We have talked about why I am vegan now, as we talked about why I was vegetarian. I wanted him to know why it means so much to me, and he wanted to understand. I can't change him, and I don't try to. If he changes it is because he wants to, not because I want him to. That is the only lasting change anyway.He does admit that he thinks my lifestyle choices are better for health, enviornmental and compassion reasons, but he just can't make the change yet. Lots of people are that way. I was thirteen when I became vegetarian, but 23 when I went vegan. And that's pretty young. Lots of people are much older before they go vegetarain. I'm sure many on this list are in thier 30's or over and just starting to be veg.My point is that it is a hard transition to make in this culture. I know I was raised to think of meat as beef and pork not dead cow and pig. I pulled a "wishbone" or two at Thanksgiving and it sickens me now, but I didn't think twice about it as a child.Yes, I see why some want to be with other vegans, and that is fine if that is critria for a mate. But I perosnally don't want to cut myself off from the 'meat eaters' because I think they are evil. Heck, my own mamma eats fish and chicken. I feel like I should be in there being a positive example and giving out the information that many just don't get in today's society to make an informed choice.Sorry I ranted on for so long, but I feel that I must be a minority in this group since no one else seems to be married to a carnivore. And although I understand the weariness of living with a meat eater, I just wanted to share my reasons. I hope I didn't offend anyone, I just thought that this might shed some light on my wacky lifestyle.(Also, I would like to point to Joanne Stepaniak's web-site, she has a wonderful article about living with meat eaters, and she puts it much more eleoquently than I ever could--and her spelling is much better!!)Hannah-- Ian McDonaldhttp://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ <http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/> To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 I second this motion! It isn't ok to kill! Not now not ever. Not for a week or a month or a year hoping that someone will change. What if it was you being eaten? I'll say it again killing animals is exactly the same and just as bad as killing humans. It's murder. Just because most people don't think this way doesn't change the truth. - Lesley Dove Friday, July 12, 2002 6:49 PM RE: Marrying meaties Since it's an ethical issue about whether or not to be an accessory to murder of animals, I don't see how you cannot feel that it's everyone's moral duty to be vegan. Were you vegetarian when you married him? Even when I was only veggie I couldn't have married a meat-eater although at the time I did have a meat eating boyfriend who kept saying he would change, but that never happened. Lesley James & Muffy Caldwell [jmc62701]12 July 2002 23:21 Subject: Re: Marrying meaties Hannah, I'm also married to a meat-eater. We had our first anniversary last month, but I've only been strictly vegan for a few months, since I discovered that I have an egg/dairy intolerance. Sometimes it's an issue, like when we want to eat out (I can't find anything to eat at his favorite restaurants) or trying to make meals that we can share (he's wary of 'strange' new foods), but most of the time it doesn't matter. He's learning to like some of my meals, and I'm getting used to eating together but eating different things. It can work out as long as neither side gets caught up in insisting that their way is the way for everyone. I just try to stay relaxed. - Muffy - Trusty, Hannah Ian McDonald ; Thursday, July 11, 2002 7:47 AM RE: Marrying meaties >>Well, that *is* a difference. Unless the two of you are an exception tothe generalisations, he thinks you are going to hell, and you think hecauses hell for animals.>>Yup, that's a difference.Yes, we do have lots of differences. As far as the religion thing goes, I really don't think he thinks I'm going to hell. We both agreed early on that as long as we are both happy and it isn't hurting anyone, our own spirtual beliefs are our own business. In this case we are both very apathetic (sp??) but it works.As far as eating meat goes, I was only a ovo-lacto vegetarian when I met him, and more for enviornmental reasons (although, Ive always loved animals). When it finally dawned on me how much animal rights did mean to me, I became vegan and doing much more activist work. This was about four years after we started dating. So as far as the dynamics of the relationship go, I was the one who changed, not him.We have talked about why I am vegan now, as we talked about why I was vegetarian. I wanted him to know why it means so much to me, and he wanted to understand. I can't change him, and I don't try to. If he changes it is because he wants to, not because I want him to. That is the only lasting change anyway.He does admit that he thinks my lifestyle choices are better for health, enviornmental and compassion reasons, but he just can't make the change yet. Lots of people are that way. I was thirteen when I became vegetarian, but 23 when I went vegan. And that's pretty young. Lots of people are much older before they go vegetarain. I'm sure many on this list are in thier 30's or over and just starting to be veg.My point is that it is a hard transition to make in this culture. I know I was raised to think of meat as beef and pork not dead cow and pig. I pulled a "wishbone" or two at Thanksgiving and it sickens me now, but I didn't think twice about it as a child.Yes, I see why some want to be with other vegans, and that is fine if that is critria for a mate. But I perosnally don't want to cut myself off from the 'meat eaters' because I think they are evil. Heck, my own mamma eats fish and chicken. I feel like I should be in there being a positive example and giving out the information that many just don't get in today's society to make an informed choice.Sorry I ranted on for so long, but I feel that I must be a minority in this group since no one else seems to be married to a carnivore. And although I understand the weariness of living with a meat eater, I just wanted to share my reasons. I hope I didn't offend anyone, I just thought that this might shed some light on my wacky lifestyle.(Also, I would like to point to Joanne Stepaniak's web-site, she has a wonderful article about living with meat eaters, and she puts it much more eleoquently than I ever could--and her spelling is much better!!)Hannah-- Ian McDonaldhttp://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ <http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/> To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Yes, unfortunately that is true Jo. Janey x Lesley, What makes you think they didn't have an understanding of right and wrong? People don't always do what they know to be right, and sometimes do things they know to be wrong. Jo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Then they are evil not ill I suppose, if they do something as wrong as that! Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]13 July 2002 01:18 Subject: Re: Marrying meaties Lesley What makes you think they didn't have an understanding of right and wrong? People don't always do what they know to be right, and sometimes do things they know to be wrong. Jo Oh sorry, of course the Yorkshire Ripper had a great understanding of what was right and wrong, and so did Myra Hindley! How stupid of me not to realise that! ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Get away from him while you can!! Go to veggie events, AR events, look for someone compatible. Lesley Jennifer Ehlert [gentlevegankitty]13 July 2002 00:37 Subject: RE: Marrying meatiesmarring a meat eater can cause a lot of problems. Doyou raise the child vegan or vegetarian as you may beor not? How can a real deep animal lover stand seeingdead animals being cooked in their kitchen? I amvegan and dating a meat eater. i love him, but cantunderstand his lack of love for animals. he loves hisdog so much, but could care less about any otheranimal. It is very difficult. I certainly reccomenddating someone more like yourself, ESPECIALLY MARRYINGsomeone. If your vegan or vegetarian for just yourown health reasons and not a big religious, feelingway you may be ok with a meat eater. (it wont breakyour heart so). --- "Trusty, Hannah" <hannah.trusty wrote:> > Jo, > Thanks for the support. It's nice to know that> someone else feels that way.> > Hannah> > > >>How could you possibly offend anyone by being> loving? You should be> proud> of yourself. If my husband wanted to eat meat I> would still love him> the> same. Wacky lifestyles can be fun - and that's what> life should be.> > > > > > ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system> (http://www.grisoft.com).> <http://www.grisoft.com).> > Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release> 20/06/02> > > To send an email to> - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 13, 2002 I agree Brad. Its healthy to have a discussion and hear different sides. That doesn't mean that someone has to *win* the rest of us over! I am quite happy to listen to other people's views, though on subjects like cats I won't change my opinions!!! Janey x - kiwi2000 Saturday, July 13, 2002 4:06 AM Re: Re: Marrying meaties Jo, that's an assumption on your part. Are you saying we shouldn't discuss anything because there's no guarantee that you win over the other person? Maybe we'll learn something from each other. I may tend to state my case strongly but that doesn't mean you shouldn't state yours. Brad - Heartwork Friday, July 12, 2002 3:18 PM Re: Re: Marrying meaties Lesley I would try to explain the situation only if I thought there was a chance that the person I was explaining to might understand. In this situation it would seem that there is not much chance of that, and therefore there is no need to go on trying to explain. Jo Why shouldn't she explain it to those of us who find it hard to understand if she so chooses? Anyway you are not with a meat eater, could you be happy with one who would not raise your kids vegan? Lesley quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]12 July 2002 18:50 Subject: Re: Marrying meatiesHey hannah, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, no matter what Brad might think about that...Graham> Also, for those who are uneasy about co-habitating with a 'meatie', I look at it this way. Before I met my husband he was a real meat and potato man, but now he eats a LOT less meat, if only by the virture that I cook the meals (I love to cook). That is saving at least a couple of cows/pigs/chickens a year. These animals are saved by our union-we are saving them together. If I was with someone who would be vegan regardless of me, and he was with another meateater, then he would probably never been exposed to the veg. lifestyle and would have kept on eating lots of meat. Yeah, I know it would save a lot more if he didn't eat any meat at all, but every little bit helps. > info/terms/> .To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
