Guest guest Report post Posted January 28, 2007 So that we may understand what the problem is, and maybe even help you overcome it. Jo - louis stott Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:45 PM Re: clothing dilemma hi jo i would like to try to expain what my point is . as you lot know i have big probleems phrasing my replys so whats the point ? jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi Louis There has been no debate - just the one question. I thought you might like to try to help us understand your problem. Jo - louis stott Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:23 PM Re: clothing dilemma debate closed jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi Louis Would you mind trying to explain what your problem is - why it is difficult for you. Jo - louis stott Friday, January 26, 2007 5:51 AM Re: clothing dilemma hi peter w this is why i wonted to say thank you for tryin to understand my replys .. i dont use my caps as much now on here as i was told by jo that it was shouting . but i dont see it as shouting lo and i miss not usein them peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: Hi Louis, I understand that you have a problem some times with your replies, which is why I bring it to the attention of the others.I want to avoid uneccessary conflict if at all possible. The Valley Vegan.............louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: hi peter w i ow you a thank you . so thank you , i think you are the only one what knows i find it with my replys peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: To me waste is worse than good intentions. As long as you have not bought anything made from animals since being vegan, then I think that there is nothing wrong in either wearing what you have until it is worn out, or give to a charity shop if you can afford to replace them. The Valley Vegan....................lnellhaus <lnellhaus > wrote: Hi,I'm a fairly new vegan. I've been eating a vegan diet for a little over a year now. But, I still wear the wool and leather coats I owned before I went vegan. I feel awful about wearing them, but at the same time I feel like I shouldn't waste the clothing. It's been bothering me a lot and would appreciate any feedback you all have.Thanks,Linda Peter H Messenger - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing. What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. Peter H What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB storage with All New Mail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Until recently most aeroplane seats have leather covers/trim. Colin has had quite a bit of success persuading companies to use faux leather products. Jo , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > Personally , I seldom use taxis, and either drive or walk.But I do catch a train daily to work. Their upholstry on the seats looks suspiciously like it has wool in it, and some has leather trim. I would not be able to specify a vegan train........... > > The Valley Vegan............. > > louis stott <lsstott wrote: > hi jo > in reply to one of your replys to ( me ) > when i call a cab etc i always say to them that im vegan and dont wont leather seats etc bet you dont ? > > jo <jo.heartwork wrote: > My point precisely - and therefore should have been aimed elsewhere! > > Jo > - > peter VV > > Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:55 PM > Re: Re: clothing dilemma > > > Lets get one thing straight, no-one could ever be 100% vegan, it just is not possible, unless you stop breathing or drinking anything. > Everyone tries and makes a concious decision to be as vegan as possible. > To some people that turn vegan and still have animal skin products, it is a bigger crime and wastefull to discard them after buying them than to wear them out and replace them with a vegan alternative. To others, possibly more afluent, they will replace them immediatly. > The important thing is that since they turned vegan, that they do not sponsor an animals demise by purchasing an animal skin product. > Judging is not helpful, your concience should be your guide not peer pressure. > We are not children here, no-one should stand up and say " I`m a bigger vegan than you are " , that is self defeating. > > Sorry to have my straight head on at the moment, normal service will be resumed......... > > The Valley Vegan................ > > heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: > Presumably, if you use a bus or train that has some leather or animal > parts in it, or use an aeroplane that has leather seats, you will not > call yourself a vegan. In these instances you are paying to use > something that has animal parts. If you use up an old pair of leather > shoes you are not currently paying for them. > > Are you absolutely sure that you do not pay for anythimg that uses > animal parts? and if so can you ever call yourself a vegan? > > Jo > > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote: > > > > hi anouk > > thank you . at least someone understands what I'm trying to say .. > > so in my book shes veg not vegan yet . > > > > hi jo > > please try to understand my replys a bit more you know i find it > hard to phrasing my replys > > > > flower child <zurumato@> wrote: > > hi jo, > > I agree with Louis, > > > > that person can wear furs and leather until they wear out. > > > > but they should call themselves vegetarian, since > > the true definition of a vegan is one who abstains from > > animal products. > > > > We also have to bear in my that if someone says they are > > vegan and then a meat-eater sees them wearing leather or fur, > > then they might be called a hipocrite. > > > > It is best to model behavior and set example to carnivores, they are > > looking at the > > first opportunity to find flaw in us. > > > > I personally would not feel comfortable wearing animal skin. > > > > -anouk > > > > , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Louis > > > > > > You do have a turn of phrase that annoys people, don't you! Do you > > > do it on purpose or is it an accident? > > > > > > I don't think I have lost. I think your logic is faulty on this > > > occasion. > > > > > > It is sensible to use up what you have. It is wasteful to throw > > > something away just because it is not exactly what you now want. > > > Would it help the animals to be thrown away now? I don't see how you > > > can advocate wasting anything in this age where we are trying to get > > > everyone to be frugal and recycle. Even PETA hand out old fur coats > > > to keep the homeless warm. > > > > > > When the old leather clothes have worn out, that is the time to buy > > > new vegan clothes. > > > > > > Jo > > > > > > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote: > > > > > > > > sorry jo > > > > you have lost this on . she is now VEGAN so she needs to say bye > > > bye bye bye to the stuff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis > of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. > > Peter H > > > > What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. > > > > > > > The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. > > > > > Peter H > > > > > Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB storage with All New Mail. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Have you heard of Adolf Hitler? Jo - louis stott Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:14 PM Re: clothing dilemma sorry i dont know what a nazi is ? so i cart reply Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Louis So, since that's the way you feel, presumably your using a PC means that you call yourself a nazi.... BB Peter - louis stott Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:38 PM Re: clothing dilemma hear we go again peter bb . how can you call yourself vegan ?? in my books your veg not vegan well if you feel awful bout wearing then .. i got 2 things to say to you dump them . you are veg not vegan !Peter Kebbell <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Linda >I'm a fairly new vegan. I've been eating a vegan diet for a little >over a year now. But, I still wear the wool and leather coats I owned >before I went vegan. I feel awful about wearing them, but at the same >time I feel like I shouldn't waste the clothing. It's been bothering >me a lot and would appreciate any feedback you all have. I reckon this is something everyone goes through when they first go vegan. I went for a fairly "middle road". Everything that I could easily give away I did (so my leather wallet went within a couple of days!). More expensive items like shoes, I continued to wear until they wore out. In fact, 8 years after going vegan, I still have a suit which is 40% wool, which I've had since before I was vegan. I take the view that the animal has already suffered, and throwing out the item concerned isn't going to help that animal now, and it's just going to increase the huge amount of waste that our society produces. For me the point of being vegan is to stop contributing to cruelty - I can't change what I did before I went vegan, but I can live in a way that will make my future less harmful. BB Peter The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. New Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 That's funny. I get that same alll or nothing argument from carvnivores every day! It's an excuse to continue to not change anything about their habits. When I tell them I'm vegan, they say what about insects that were killed for that lettuce, what about the microbes that I kill when I wash my hand, the screaming carrots? where will it end?? they say. Why bother being a vegan, if there is no such thing as a perfect vegan. Then they bite into their McDeath Burger. -anouk , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > How about the oil, the petrol, the possible wool content in upholstry, the constituants of the plastics, etc , etc, can this end now, its starting to get old, and in danger of getting personal............. > > The Valley Vegan............. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Hi Anouk It would seem that most of us are in agreement then. Jo - " flower child " <zurumato Monday, January 29, 2007 5:45 PM Re: clothing dilemma > That's funny. > > I get that same alll or nothing argument from carvnivores > every day! > It's an excuse to continue to not change anything about their habits. > > When I tell them I'm vegan, > they say what about insects that were > killed for that lettuce, what about the microbes that I kill when > I wash my hand, the screaming carrots? > > where will it end?? they say. Why bother being a vegan, if there > is no such thing as a perfect vegan. > > Then they bite into their McDeath Burger. > > -anouk > > > > > , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > > > How about the oil, the petrol, the possible wool content in > upholstry, the constituants of the plastics, etc , etc, can this end > now, its starting to get old, and in danger of getting > personal............. > > > > The Valley Vegan............. > > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 I agree that it is environmentally insane to dump leather. but not fur? what to do with the fur? I clean out my closet at least once a year during spring. Doesn't everyone? That leather is a by-product is the biggest misconception that vegetarians have. In actuality, More $$ is made with leather per square inch than if you were to compare with meat. The skin of the cow is worth more than the inside of him/her. A pair of leather shoes cost 40 or more dollars; the same size slab of meat next to it does not cost 40 dollars. A leather jackect can cost up to 300 dollars or more; the same amount in meat does not cost 300 dollars. The cows in India bread for leather are not the same ones for meat. The lead a horribly cruel life. It is much more torturous and cruel than an animal used for fur because they do not die instantly instead are dragged hundreds of miles beaten, loaded into trucks, until they reach their final destiny and die ofrom sheer exhaustion and hunger. I am not a holier, wealthier or better vegan nor trying to tell people how to live. I buy cheap shoes at payless, made in china (perhaps that is another crime I commit) My husband purchases catalog vegan shoes. There are some sneakers called VANS that offer canvas. Leather itself is very very bad for the environment. Where they are treated with dyes, the runoff of the dyes into the water kill all fishlife and wildlife. I am just saying people might want to call themselves vegetarian while their " skins " wear out. So as not to confuse people who thought that the definition of a vegan is one who abstains from animal products. -anouk , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think giving someone a scuffed pair of shoes encourages them to buy more shoes (which they will anyway in all probability ), wheras giving someone a fur coat will encurage the type of person who values such a thing to wear and show it off and may encourage them to buy others and encourage others............... > I agree that they are both skins, that is obvious, however one is commonplace and utility and a by product , the other is a luxary item that is given some sort of status, and seen paraded by the rich. > I think it would be a lot easier to ban fur than leather. > I also think it enviromentally insane to just dump the shoes rather than use them until they fall apart ( as I do with my vegan shoes). > If I had a time machine maybe I could go back and not purchase them in the first place? > > The Valley Vegan................ > > leather and fur are the same thing. > they are skins of an animal > it is just that fur is more > obvious a skin because it has little hairs > > leather is disguised, > it is is treated, tanned, colored, made soft, made shiny. > > if you're going to wear leather until it wears out > you should wear fur until it wears out. > it is the same thing. > > many vegetarians would like to think different but > ask a cow and a rabbit. > > -anouk > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 On the surface this might seem like a perfectly good argument - but can you tell at a glance whether shoes or a jacket are leather or a vegan alternative? I am not a vegan, but nobody has ever asked me if my shoes are leather. Come to think of it, nobody ever asks any questions at all apart from what I can eat. With regard to the shoes from China - I try to avoid buying from places that use very cheap labour, as it is also abuse. I try not to confine my compassion to just animals. Jo - " flower child " <zurumato Monday, January 29, 2007 6:09 PM Re: clothing dilemma > I agree that it is environmentally insane to dump leather. > but not fur? what to do with the fur? > > I clean out my closet at least once a year during spring. Doesn't > everyone? > > That leather is a by-product is the biggest misconception that > vegetarians have. > In actuality, More $$ is made with leather per square inch than > if you were to compare with meat. > > The skin of the cow is worth more than the inside of him/her. A pair > of leather shoes cost 40 or more dollars; the same size slab of meat > next to it does not cost 40 dollars. A leather jackect can cost up to > 300 > dollars or more; the same amount in meat does not cost 300 dollars. > > The cows in India bread for leather are not the same ones for meat. > > The lead a horribly cruel life. It is much more torturous and cruel > than an animal used for fur because they do not die instantly instead > are dragged hundreds of miles beaten, loaded into trucks, until they > reach their > final destiny and die ofrom sheer exhaustion and hunger. > > I am not a holier, wealthier or better vegan nor trying to tell people > how to live. I buy cheap shoes at payless, made in china (perhaps > that is another crime I commit) My husband purchases catalog vegan shoes. > There are some sneakers called VANS that offer canvas. > > Leather itself is very very bad for the environment. Where they are > treated with dyes, the runoff of the dyes into the water kill all > fishlife and wildlife. > > I am just saying people might want to call themselves vegetarian while > their " skins " wear out. So as not to confuse people > who thought that the definition of a vegan is one who abstains from > animal products. > > -anouk > > , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > > > As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think giving > someone a scuffed pair of shoes encourages them to buy more shoes > (which they will anyway in all probability ), wheras giving someone a > fur coat will encurage the type of person who values such a thing to > wear and show it off and may encourage them to buy others and > encourage others............... > > I agree that they are both skins, that is obvious, however one is > commonplace and utility and a by product , the other is a luxary item > that is given some sort of status, and seen paraded by the rich. > > I think it would be a lot easier to ban fur than leather. > > I also think it enviromentally insane to just dump the shoes > rather than use them until they fall apart ( as I do with my vegan shoes). > > If I had a time machine maybe I could go back and not purchase > them in the first place? > > > > The Valley Vegan................ > > > > leather and fur are the same thing. > > they are skins of an animal > > it is just that fur is more > > obvious a skin because it has little hairs > > > > leather is disguised, > > it is is treated, tanned, colored, made soft, made shiny. > > > > if you're going to wear leather until it wears out > > you should wear fur until it wears out. > > it is the same thing. > > > > many vegetarians would like to think different but > > ask a cow and a rabbit. > > > > -anouk > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Hi Anouk, If I cleaned out my closet every spring after a year or two I wouldn't have any clothes left!, I am still wearing jeans that are 5 years old, shirts that are the same if not older etc, I generally only buy clothes in sales/second hand and then very rarely. I try not to buy clothes that are made from places like china etc as they could be sweatshop produced. I am sorry that you feel the need to label a vegan vegetarian just because they feel that they are being helpful by wearing out existing shoes, even if they only started going vegan and have not bought any animal products since then. I would imagine that they would be aware of animal exploitation and the production of leather, by the fact that they were going vegan. I am sad that you feel you have to judge someone who turns vegan and decides to wear out their shoes. I would have hoped for more empathy from a vegan....... The Valley Vegan............ P.S. I am still wearing a leather belt supplied to me by work 10 years ago. So I guess by your reckoning I have only been a vegan for the 5 years before that, not 15. Maybe I had better change my moniker.........flower child <zurumato wrote: I agree that it is environmentally insane to dump leather. but not fur? what to do with the fur?I clean out my closet at least once a year during spring. Doesn't everyone?That leather is a by-product is the biggest misconception thatvegetarians have. In actuality, More $$ is made with leather per square inch than if you were to compare with meat. The skin of the cow is worth more than the inside of him/her. A pairof leather shoes cost 40 or more dollars; the same size slab of meatnext to it does not cost 40 dollars. A leather jackect can cost up to300 dollars or more; the same amount in meat does not cost 300 dollars. The cows in India bread for leather are not the same ones for meat. The lead a horribly cruel life. It is much more torturous and cruel than an animal used for fur because they do not die instantly instead are dragged hundreds of miles beaten, loaded into trucks, until theyreach their final destiny and die ofrom sheer exhaustion and hunger. I am not a holier, wealthier or better vegan nor trying to tell peoplehow to live. I buy cheap shoes at payless, made in china (perhapsthat is another crime I commit) My husband purchases catalog vegan shoes.There are some sneakers called VANS that offer canvas. Leather itself is very very bad for the environment. Where they aretreated with dyes, the runoff of the dyes into the water kill all fishlife and wildlife. I am just saying people might want to call themselves vegetarian whiletheir "skins" wear out. So as not to confuse people who thought that the definition of a vegan is one who abstains from animal products. -anouk , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think givingsomeone a scuffed pair of shoes encourages them to buy more shoes(which they will anyway in all probability ), wheras giving someone afur coat will encurage the type of person who values such a thing towear and show it off and may encourage them to buy others andencourage others...............> I agree that they are both skins, that is obvious, however one iscommonplace and utility and a by product , the other is a luxary itemthat is given some sort of status, and seen paraded by the rich.> I think it would be a lot easier to ban fur than leather.> I also think it enviromentally insane to just dump the shoesrather than use them until they fall apart ( as I do with my vegan shoes).> If I had a time machine maybe I could go back and not purchasethem in the first place?> > The Valley Vegan................> > leather and fur are the same thing. > they are skins of an animal> it is just that fur is more > obvious a skin because it has little hairs> > leather is disguised, > it is is treated, tanned, colored, made soft, made shiny.> > if you're going to wear leather until it wears out> you should wear fur until it wears out. > it is the same thing.> > many vegetarians would like to think different but> ask a cow and a rabbit. > > -anouk > >Peter H New Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Good for him. Can he specify what the pilot/cabin crew wears also? Would he like the train companies address? The Valley Vegan............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: Until recently most aeroplane seats have leather covers/trim. Colin has had quite a bit of success persuading companies to use faux leather products.Jo , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Personally , I seldom use taxis, and either drive or walk.But I do catch a train daily to work. Their upholstry on the seats looks suspiciously like it has wool in it, and some has leather trim. I would not be able to specify a vegan train...........> > The Valley Vegan.............> > louis stott <lsstott wrote:> hi jo > in reply to one of your replys to ( me ) > when i call a cab etc i always say to them that im vegan and dont wont leather seats etc bet you dont ?> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:> My point precisely - and therefore should have been aimed elsewhere!> > Jo> - > peter VV > > Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:55 PM> Re: Re: clothing dilemma> > > Lets get one thing straight, no-one could ever be 100% vegan, it just is not possible, unless you stop breathing or drinking anything.> Everyone tries and makes a concious decision to be as vegan as possible.> To some people that turn vegan and still have animal skin products, it is a bigger crime and wastefull to discard them after buying them than to wear them out and replace them with a vegan alternative. To others, possibly more afluent, they will replace them immediatly.> The important thing is that since they turned vegan, that they do not sponsor an animals demise by purchasing an animal skin product.> Judging is not helpful, your concience should be your guide not peer pressure.> We are not children here, no-one should stand up and say " I`m a bigger vegan than you are", that is self defeating.> > Sorry to have my straight head on at the moment, normal service will be resumed.........> > The Valley Vegan................> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:> Presumably, if you use a bus or train that has some leather or animal> parts in it, or use an aeroplane that has leather seats, you will not> call yourself a vegan. In these instances you are paying to use> something that has animal parts. If you use up an old pair of leather> shoes you are not currently paying for them.> > Are you absolutely sure that you do not pay for anythimg that uses> animal parts? and if so can you ever call yourself a vegan?> > Jo> > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote:> >> > hi anouk > > thank you . at least someone understands what I'm trying to say .. > > so in my book shes veg not vegan yet .> > > > hi jo > > please try to understand my replys a bit more you know i find it> hard to phrasing my replys> > > > flower child <zurumato@> wrote:> > hi jo, > > I agree with Louis, > > > > that person can wear furs and leather until they wear out. > > > > but they should call themselves vegetarian, since> > the true definition of a vegan is one who abstains from > > animal products. > > > > We also have to bear in my that if someone says they are > > vegan and then a meat-eater sees them wearing leather or fur,> > then they might be called a hipocrite. > > > > It is best to model behavior and set example to carnivores, they are> > looking at the > > first opportunity to find flaw in us. > > > > I personally would not feel comfortable wearing animal skin. > > > > -anouk> > > > , "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > >> > > Hi Louis> > > > > > You do have a turn of phrase that annoys people, don't you! Do you > > > do it on purpose or is it an accident?> > > > > > I don't think I have lost. I think your logic is faulty on this > > > occasion. > > > > > > It is sensible to use up what you have. It is wasteful to throw > > > something away just because it is not exactly what you now want. > > > Would it help the animals to be thrown away now? I don't see how you > > > can advocate wasting anything in this age where we are trying to get > > > everyone to be frugal and recycle. Even PETA hand out old fur coats > > > to keep the homeless warm.> > > > > > When the old leather clothes have worn out, that is the time to buy > > > new vegan clothes.> > > > > > Jo> > > > > > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote:> > > >> > > > sorry jo > > > > you have lost this on . she is now VEGAN so she needs to say bye > > > bye bye bye to the stuff> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis> of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship.> >> > > > > > > Peter H > > > > What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. > > > > > > > The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. > > > > > Peter H > > > > > Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB storage with All New Mail.>Peter H The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Louis, Dont think of us as the enemy here, we have no hidden agenda. We all want to understand and help each other. The Valley Vegan..............louis stott <lsstott wrote: hi jo i would like to try to expain what my point is . as you lot know i have big probleems phrasing my replys so whats the point ? jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi Louis There has been no debate - just the one question. I thought you might like to try to help us understand your problem. Jo - louis stott Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:23 PM Re: clothing dilemma debate closed jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi Louis Would you mind trying to explain what your problem is - why it is difficult for you. Jo - louis stott Friday, January 26, 2007 5:51 AM Re: clothing dilemma hi peter w this is why i wonted to say thank you for tryin to understand my replys .. i dont use my caps as much now on here as i was told by jo that it was shouting . but i dont see it as shouting lo and i miss not usein them peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: Hi Louis, I understand that you have a problem some times with your replies, which is why I bring it to the attention of the others.I want to avoid uneccessary conflict if at all possible. The Valley Vegan.............louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: hi peter w i ow you a thank you . so thank you , i think you are the only one what knows i find it with my replys peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: To me waste is worse than good intentions. As long as you have not bought anything made from animals since being vegan, then I think that there is nothing wrong in either wearing what you have until it is worn out, or give to a charity shop if you can afford to replace them. The Valley Vegan....................lnellhaus <lnellhaus > wrote: Hi,I'm a fairly new vegan. I've been eating a vegan diet for a little over a year now. But, I still wear the wool and leather coats I owned before I went vegan. I feel awful about wearing them, but at the same time I feel like I shouldn't waste the clothing. It's been bothering me a lot and would appreciate any feedback you all have.Thanks,Linda Peter H Messenger - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing. What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. Peter H What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB storage with All New Mail. Peter H The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 No just the seats. Jo - peter VV Monday, January 29, 2007 7:34 PM Re: Re: clothing dilemma Good for him. Can he specify what the pilot/cabin crew wears also? Would he like the train companies address? The Valley Vegan............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: Until recently most aeroplane seats have leather covers/trim. Colin has had quite a bit of success persuading companies to use faux leather products.Jo , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Personally , I seldom use taxis, and either drive or walk.But I do catch a train daily to work. Their upholstry on the seats looks suspiciously like it has wool in it, and some has leather trim. I would not be able to specify a vegan train...........> > The Valley Vegan.............> > louis stott <lsstott wrote:> hi jo > in reply to one of your replys to ( me ) > when i call a cab etc i always say to them that im vegan and dont wont leather seats etc bet you dont ?> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:> My point precisely - and therefore should have been aimed elsewhere!> > Jo> - > peter VV > > Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:55 PM> Re: Re: clothing dilemma> > > Lets get one thing straight, no-one could ever be 100% vegan, it just is not possible, unless you stop breathing or drinking anything.> Everyone tries and makes a concious decision to be as vegan as possible.> To some people that turn vegan and still have animal skin products, it is a bigger crime and wastefull to discard them after buying them than to wear them out and replace them with a vegan alternative. To others, possibly more afluent, they will replace them immediatly.> The important thing is that since they turned vegan, that they do not sponsor an animals demise by purchasing an animal skin product.> Judging is not helpful, your concience should be your guide not peer pressure.> We are not children here, no-one should stand up and say " I`m a bigger vegan than you are", that is self defeating.> > Sorry to have my straight head on at the moment, normal service will be resumed.........> > The Valley Vegan................> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:> Presumably, if you use a bus or train that has some leather or animal> parts in it, or use an aeroplane that has leather seats, you will not> call yourself a vegan. In these instances you are paying to use> something that has animal parts. If you use up an old pair of leather> shoes you are not currently paying for them.> > Are you absolutely sure that you do not pay for anythimg that uses> animal parts? and if so can you ever call yourself a vegan?> > Jo> > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote:> >> > hi anouk > > thank you . at least someone understands what I'm trying to say .. > > so in my book shes veg not vegan yet .> > > > hi jo > > please try to understand my replys a bit more you know i find it> hard to phrasing my replys> > > > flower child <zurumato@> wrote:> > hi jo, > > I agree with Louis, > > > > that person can wear furs and leather until they wear out. > > > > but they should call themselves vegetarian, since> > the true definition of a vegan is one who abstains from > > animal products. > > > > We also have to bear in my that if someone says they are > > vegan and then a meat-eater sees them wearing leather or fur,> > then they might be called a hipocrite. > > > > It is best to model behavior and set example to carnivores, they are> > looking at the > > first opportunity to find flaw in us. > > > > I personally would not feel comfortable wearing animal skin. > > > > -anouk> > > > , "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > >> > > Hi Louis> > > > > > You do have a turn of phrase that annoys people, don't you! Do you > > > do it on purpose or is it an accident?> > > > > > I don't think I have lost. I think your logic is faulty on this > > > occasion. > > > > > > It is sensible to use up what you have. It is wasteful to throw > > > something away just because it is not exactly what you now want. > > > Would it help the animals to be thrown away now? I don't see how you > > > can advocate wasting anything in this age where we are trying to get > > > everyone to be frugal and recycle. Even PETA hand out old fur coats > > > to keep the homeless warm.> > > > > > When the old leather clothes have worn out, that is the time to buy > > > new vegan clothes.> > > > > > Jo> > > > > > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote:> > > >> > > > sorry jo > > > > you have lost this on . she is now VEGAN so she needs to say bye > > > bye bye bye to the stuff> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis> of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship.> >> > > > > > > Peter H > > > > What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. > > > > > > > The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. > > > > > Peter H > > > > > Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB storage with All New Mail.> Peter H The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 you say that I am judgin you, but it just a commonly accepted definition. here it is from Merriam Webster and every other dictionary out there. Look I have said myself that I am not perfect, I have flaws and no one is perfect, But wouldn't it be a Misnomer? VEGAN One entry found for vegan. Main Entry: veg·an Pronunciation: 'vE-g & n also 'vA- also 've-j & n or - " jan Function: noun Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian : a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products; also : one who abstains from using animal products as leather - vegan adjective - veg·an·ism /'vE-g & - " ni-z & m, 'vA-g & -, 've-j & -/ noun Physician-reviewed articles on vegan on Healthline. 1. Vegetarianism : Alternative Names Lacto-ovovegetarian; Semi-vegetarian; Partial vegetarian;... , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > Hi Anouk, > I am sorry that you feel the need to label a vegan vegetarian just because they feel that they are being helpful by wearing out existing shoes, even if they only started going vegan and have not bought any animal products since then. > I would imagine that they would be aware of animal exploitation and the production of leather, by the fact that they were going vegan. > I am sad that you feel you have to judge someone who turns vegan and decides to wear out their shoes. I would have hoped for more empathy from a vegan....... > > The Valley Vegan............ > P.S. I am still wearing a leather belt supplied to me by work 10 years ago. So I guess by your reckoning I have only been a vegan for the 5 years before that, not 15. Maybe I had better change my moniker......... > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Everyone Judges, you are judging me for buying something made in china. I honestly have a hard time finding items that are made in the USA. and when I do find them, I do support the US depending on the circumstance.. Some people, when they turn vegan, decide to finish the meat that is in their Freezer that is good for the next two months. (depending on how good your refrigerator is) so as not to waste that meat. during that interim period are they Vegan, or on their way to veganism? -anouk , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > Hi Anouk, > If I cleaned out my closet every spring after a year or two I wouldn't have any clothes left!, I am still wearing jeans that are 5 years old, shirts that are the same if not older etc, I generally only buy clothes in sales/second hand and then very rarely. > I try not to buy clothes that are made from places like china etc as they could be sweatshop produced. > I am sorry that you feel the need to label a vegan vegetarian just because they feel that they are being helpful by wearing out existing shoes, even if they only started going vegan and have not bought any animal products since then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 hi jo, good point. but maybe if they did ask, then I would see it as an opportunity to let someone know that it is possible to have good looking shoes that is not an animal skin. -anouk -- In , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote: > > On the surface this might seem like a perfectly good argument - but can you > tell at a glance whether shoes or a jacket are leather or a vegan > alternative? I am not a vegan, but nobody has ever asked me if my shoes are > leather. Come to think of it, nobody ever asks any questions at all apart > from what I can eat. > > With regard to the shoes from China - I try to avoid buying from places that > use very cheap labour, as it is also abuse. I try not to confine my > compassion to just animals. > > Jo > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Hi Anouk, Isnt it unlikely that a group of carnies would ask each other if their shoes were leather or not, and unless someone knew they were talking to a vegan/vegetarian I doubt that they would ask. I always offer advice when asked ( very rarely ) , but will not preach or judge as I think this does our cause no good whatsoever. The Valley Vegan...............flower child <zurumato wrote: hi jo,good point. but maybe if they did ask, thenI would see it as an opportunity to let someone knowthat it is possible to have good looking shoes that is not an animal skin. -anouk -- In , "jo" <jo.heartwork wrote:>> On the surface this might seem like a perfectly good argument - butcan you> tell at a glance whether shoes or a jacket are leather or a vegan> alternative? I am not a vegan, but nobody has ever asked me if myshoes are> leather. Come to think of it, nobody ever asks any questions at allapart> from what I can eat.> > With regard to the shoes from China - I try to avoid buying fromplaces that> use very cheap labour, as it is also abuse. I try not to confine my> compassion to just animals.> > Jo> >Peter H The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 I did, and do not judge you for buying from China, read again what I said, I merely expressed my reason for not buying, I did not pass judgement on anyone who does ( and neither did Jo) I would say that they are not vegan if they continue to eat meat. I doubt that such a person who decides one day to go vegan would continue to eat meat , do you, seriously? There are so many other options, giving it to the needy, to pets, to relatives, to neighbours etc, or just deciding to go vegan after they have eaten it! That was not the topic here the subject is "clothing dilema". The Valley Vegan ( still has a 10 year old leather belt so possibly only 98% vegan ).............flower child <zurumato wrote: Everyone Judges, you are judging me for buying something made in china.I honestly have a hard time finding items that are made in the USA.and when I do find them, I do support the US depending on thecircumstance..Some people, when they turn vegan, decide to finish the meat that isin their Freezer that is good for the next two months. (depending on how good your refrigerator is) so as not to waste that meat. during that interim period are they Vegan, or on their way to veganism?-anouk , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Hi Anouk,> If I cleaned out my closet every spring after a year or two Iwouldn't have any clothes left!, I am still wearing jeans that are 5years old, shirts that are the same if not older etc, I generally onlybuy clothes in sales/second hand and then very rarely.> I try not to buy clothes that are made from places like china etcas they could be sweatshop produced.> I am sorry that you feel the need to label a vegan vegetarian justbecause they feel that they are being helpful by wearing out existingshoes, even if they only started going vegan and have not bought anyanimal products since then.Peter H All New Mail – Tired of unwanted email come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Well then Anouk, what would you like to label me as? I wear my only leather belt on average 75-80 days a year in work, so maybe I am vegetarian then and vegan 75% of the rest of the time? ( never was good at maths ) I still consider myself vegan, so do my kids and everyone else I know, it seems that only other vegans have a problem with this? Whatever.......... The Valley Vegan............... flower child <zurumato wrote: you say that I am judgin you, but it just a commonly accepted definition. here it is from Merriam Webster and every other dictionary out there. Look I have said myself that I am not perfect, I have flawsand no one is perfect, But wouldn't it be a Misnomer?VEGANOne entry found for vegan.Main Entry: veg·anPronunciation: 'vE-g & n also 'vA- also 've-j & n or -"janFunction: nounEtymology: by contraction from vegetarian: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products;also : one who abstains from using animal products as leather- vegan adjective- veg·an·ism /'vE-g & -"ni-z & m, 'vA-g & -, 've-j & -/ nounPhysician-reviewed articles on vegan on Healthline.1. Vegetarianism : Alternative NamesLacto-ovovegetarian; Semi-vegetarian; Partial vegetarian;... , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Hi Anouk,> I am sorry that you feel the need to label a vegan vegetarian justbecause they feel that they are being helpful by wearing out existingshoes, even if they only started going vegan and have not bought anyanimal products since then.> I would imagine that they would be aware of animal exploitationand the production of leather, by the fact that they were going vegan.> I am sad that you feel you have to judge someone who turns veganand decides to wear out their shoes. I would have hoped for moreempathy from a vegan.......> > The Valley Vegan............> P.S. I am still wearing a leather belt supplied to me by work 10years ago. So I guess by your reckoning I have only been a vegan forthe 5 years before that, not 15. Maybe I had better change mymoniker.........>Peter H What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 clean out my closet once a year? eep umm sorry..i can't afford to replace stuff that quick anouk i still have t-shirts from when i was like 15.......... >flower child <zurumato >Jan 29, 2007 1:09 PM > > Re: clothing dilemma >I clean out my closet at least once a year during spring. Doesn't >everyone? > > " Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. " -- Dwight Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 me too, I just throw out the rags, the stuff with holes and sometimes my husband uses an old shirt to wipe his car. I too have stuff from when I was 15. I am still the same size, and have no body fat. But, the rest of America is DISPOSABLE I see it everyday in our culture and just walking down the street and seeing what other people think see as " garbage " . -anouk , fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: > > clean out my closet once a year? > eep > umm > sorry..i can't afford to replace stuff that quick anouk > > i still have t-shirts from when i was like 15.......... > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > Well then Anouk, what would you like to label me as? I wear my only leather belt on average 75-80 days a year in work, so maybe I am vegetarian then and vegan 75% of the rest of the time? ( never was good at maths ) > I still consider myself vegan, so do my kids and everyone else I know, it seems that only other vegans have a problem with this? > Whatever.......... of course you are vegan, I have known you for two years and believe that you are. I am just saying , it can be concieved by an observant whether they be verbal or not that a person wearing leather does not care about the death of an animal. Some of these concepts that we have talked about can be called Free-gan a person who is concerned about not wasting a product and will use it, even if it is animal origin. I myself am not ashamed to find something in the street and use it for myself. Mostly books and magazines. It is an excellent way to recicle. I am not the police and understand why you wear your leather belt. It doesn't matter what I think, what matters is what is in your heart. we should give each other support. It is good to remember that , always,the Speciescist system (media, people, corporations etc.) are looking for ways to degrade or judge us or confuse our vegan morality. my little boy has sneakers with a little leather stripe on them, my mom bought them, she said she didn't know. He continues to wear them till they wear out. My cousin who is carnivore pointed this out. merit a classic reply.. " at least I am trying, what the hell are you doing? It's impossible to be perftect, but we should all try to be good vegan models. I believe that you are genuine and honest vegan. I no longer wear leather because, I want to show the world, look, if I can do it so can you. -anouk Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men. ~ Leonardo da Vinci (Renaissance painter, architect, engineer, mathematician and philosopher, 1452 - 1519) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 Sorry Anouk, I just have a problem with conformity and putting things in boxes is all. I could stop wearing the belt tomorrow ( well maybe if I got a piece of string ), but I dont want to. I do have another ( vegan belt ), but its too wide for my work trousers. I know it aint perfect ideal vegan, but I couldnt care less, sorry to shock you, and no offence meant, but at least I`m honest. I didnt pay for it, and I dont honestly think in my mind that I am promoting the wearing of leather with this one item, so maybe I will buy another vegan one to replace it, maybe I wont....... The Valley Vegan.............flower child <zurumato wrote: , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Well then Anouk, what would you like to label me as? I wear my onlyleather belt on average 75-80 days a year in work, so maybe I amvegetarian then and vegan 75% of the rest of the time? ( never wasgood at maths )> I still consider myself vegan, so do my kids and everyone else Iknow, it seems that only other vegans have a problem with this?> Whatever..........of course you are vegan, I have known you for two years and believethat you are. I am just saying ,it can be concieved by an observant whether they be verbal or not that a person wearing leather does not care about the death of an animal. Some of these concepts that we have talked about can be called Free-gana person who is concerned about not wasting a product and will use it,even if it is animal origin. I myself am not ashamed to find something in the street and use it formyself. Mostly books and magazines. It is an excellent way to recicle. I am not the police and understand why you wear your leather belt. Itdoesn't matter what I think, what matters is what is in your heart. we should give each other support. It is good to remember that , always,the Speciescist system (media,people, corporations etc.)are looking for ways to degrade or judge us or confuse our veganmorality. my little boy has sneakers with a little leather stripe on them, my mom bought them, she said she didn't know. He continues to wear them till they wear out. My cousin who iscarnivore pointed this out. merit a classic reply.."at least I am trying, what the hell are you doing?It's impossible to be perftect, but we should all try to be goodvegan models. I believe that you are genuine and honest vegan. I no longer wear leather because, I want to show the world, look, if I can do it so can you.-anouk Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. Welive by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from anearly age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when mensuch as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on themurder of men. ~ Leonardo da Vinci (Renaissance painter, architect, engineer,mathematician and philosopher, 1452 - 1519)Peter H What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 You could do that anyway, by saying that as soon as your shoes have worn out you will be buying some lovely vegan shoes. Jo - " flower child " <zurumato Monday, January 29, 2007 8:04 PM Re: clothing dilemma > hi jo, > > good point. but maybe if they did ask, then > I would see it as an opportunity to let someone know > that it is possible to have good looking shoes > that is not an animal skin. > > -anouk > > -- In , " jo " <jo.heartwork wrote: > > > > On the surface this might seem like a perfectly good argument - but > can you > > tell at a glance whether shoes or a jacket are leather or a vegan > > alternative? I am not a vegan, but nobody has ever asked me if my > shoes are > > leather. Come to think of it, nobody ever asks any questions at all > apart > > from what I can eat. > > > > With regard to the shoes from China - I try to avoid buying from > places that > > use very cheap labour, as it is also abuse. I try not to confine my > > compassion to just animals. > > > > Jo > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 The skirt I wore today is ten years old - I reckon it will last at least another ten years :-) I throw things away if they are worn out, and sometimes if I have bought clohtes that are then not comfortable I will put them in the Humana boxes. Jo - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Monday, January 29, 2007 8:49 PM Re: Re: clothing dilemma > clean out my closet once a year? > eep > umm > sorry..i can't afford to replace stuff that quick anouk > > i still have t-shirts from when i was like 15.......... > > > >flower child <zurumato > >Jan 29, 2007 1:09 PM > > > > Re: clothing dilemma > > >I clean out my closet at least once a year during spring. Doesn't > >everyone? > > > > > > " Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. " > -- Dwight Eisenhower > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 29, 2007 I don't think that the problem is with not buying home made goods as much as the fact that China does nolt have a good human rights record, and their workers are paid very badly - as are Gap and Nike workers. Jo - " flower child " <zurumato Monday, January 29, 2007 8:01 PM Re: clothing dilemma > Everyone Judges, > you are judging me for buying something made in china. > > I honestly have a hard time finding items that are made in the USA. > and when I do find them, I do support the US depending on the > circumstance.. > > Some people, when they turn vegan, decide to finish the meat that is > in their Freezer that is good for the next two months. (depending on > how good your refrigerator is) so as not to waste that meat. > > during that interim period are they Vegan, or on their way to veganism? > > -anouk > > > , peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: > > > > Hi Anouk, > > If I cleaned out my closet every spring after a year or two I > wouldn't have any clothes left!, I am still wearing jeans that are 5 > years old, shirts that are the same if not older etc, I generally only > buy clothes in sales/second hand and then very rarely. > > I try not to buy clothes that are made from places like china etc > as they could be sweatshop produced. > > I am sorry that you feel the need to label a vegan vegetarian just > because they feel that they are being helpful by wearing out existing > shoes, even if they only started going vegan and have not bought any > animal products since then. > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 30, 2007 hi Peter, good points. good email. I do not, not agree with it. I think that all sides of one issue should be explored and I think that we have done that. I am glad that these things matter to us, and that we think about them. In any discussion, I always want to be wrong, for that means I have learnt. -anouk , " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab wrote: > > > I suspect that the vast majority of people still have old photographs which > have sentimental value - those were all produced with the use of gelatine > (until the advent of the digital camera), so unless we all throw out our old > photgraphs we can't be vegan???? > > As part of my PhD, I have to look at documents printed on vellum - that's > animal skin. The animals were killed well over 500 years ago. Does that mean > that you can't have a vegan historian, archaeologist, classicist, English > literature-ist??? > > I'm sorry, but I just think a definition which is impossible to attain is > rather meaningless. > > BB > Peter > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
