Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

[Guest guest]

I suppose this is all setting up a really good excellent for no religious use of public property, isn't it? peace, sharonPeter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Jo >I get a little annoyed because there is a meditation group that uses the Quiet Centre on campus once a week. When it is Ramadan the centre is closed to all but > Muslims! That means we go a whole month with no meditation. The Buddhists also cannot use it in that time. I can't remember - is the centre part of the University? If so, then they're actually breaking the law by restricting it to the use of one religion at any period. The legal precedent was set about a year ago when a post office employee was sacked because he refused to take his shoes off in the quiet centre provided by his employers. He was sacked because the Muslims had complained that it was offensive to their religion - however, as a Heathen, he argued that it was part of his religion to wear shoes during spiritual practice, and that by sacking him, the post office were discriminating against him on religious grounds. He won the case, and the ruling was that if an employer provides a place for spiritual

practice, it must be available to all people to use as their spirituality dictates, and that one religion can not be favoured above others, regardless of whether there is one person in that religion or 1 million. This ruling would also cover the university, as they are providing a quiet centre for their staff and students, and they are in breach of the law by favouring one religion above all others. It may be worth highlighting that to them. BB Peter

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>Hi Peter. I remember really enjoying Mists of Avalon. Now of course you can just rent the DVD! I guess I always associated shamanism with the Native

> American mystical practices. I suppose I have some conception that shaman = "witch doctor." Would that be correct?

 

I've not hearrd good things about the film - apparently it misses quite a lot from the book - but as I've not seen / read either, I really have no way to judge.

 

To be strictly accurate, shamanism is the practice of the tribal "mystics" from Siberia, Russia and Scandinavia - it's the practice of communing with the spirits of the land, in order to encourage things like good harvests, kind weather (particularly important in siberia and scandinavia!), protection from the elements, etc - basically the necessities of life. The tribal shaman would also be the healer ("doctor" if you like) for the tribe, and would work with spirits to help cure disease. All shamanic practice is done through ecstatic trance, but there's absolutely no commonality as to how the trance state is achieved - in some places it was done with the use of carefully controlled amounts of drugs (which shouldn't in any way be associated with the drug culture we now have in the western world), in other places through music, singing, or dancing. Some shamans would spin around rapidly to achieve a trance, others would sit very still and hum or sing - it's purely down to the individual shaman! In terms of Native Americans, some of what their healers did was comparable with shamanism, so it's not entirely inaccurate to use the term "shaman" when referring to what they did - although I gather that N.A. practices differ quite widely across the continent, so I wouldn't like to say whether or not they are all "shamanistic". Incidentally, the term "witch-doctor" was one which was used by the European settlers as an offensive term for what they saw as "barbaric tribal practices", and isn't really that nice, or that accurate (I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but it's good to be aware of anyway :-))

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>I suppose this is all setting up a really good excellent for no religious use of public property, isn't it?

 

It's a difficult one. There's certainly an argument for that, but I think university students would feel very hard done by if all of the religious societies were suddenly banned from using Uni property for their meetings! I'm also not sure that Universities count as "public property" in the UK...

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Gee, that sounds much like the religion I made up! Okay, if you aren't interested don't read on, but just by way of explanation, here is a bit of my most recent religious history. Eighteen years ago, my nine year old daughter was kidnapped, the victim of a witnessed stranger abduction. She has never been found. About a year after her kidnapping, I turned my back on almost everything ... my faith in God, my marriage, everything really except my other kids. Before I had become a Christian, I'd been a seeker. After I left my faith, I went back to seeking. I had some belief in some sort of a destiny, or a path, and was looking for mine. I explored a lot, read a lot, delved very deeply into astrology. I came to have a lot of psychics among my personal friends ... they were people I had sought out, or had sought me out, or had been

referred to me in one way or another, with regard to my daughter's kidnapping. Anyway, that all went on for fourteen years. Then a little over three years ago my mother had an accident. She was suffering from advanced emphysema and I knew she didn't have very long to live. Had she just grown ill and passed on, that would have been it. But instead she fractured a rib, punctured a lung, had all kinds of medical intervention, and on top of it all developed a kind of psychosis. I had very firm ideas about how my mother should pass on, and this was not it! It was something that absolutely drove me to prayer. It seemed a little odd to me, that prayer. As I think I've mentioned, I had not even been able to say "God" for fifteen years. During that time I'd been down many a spiritual path, and there were any number of spiritual things I might have drawn on at that

moment. But the minute I sat down to pray, I knew who it was I was talking to. I knew it i part because of the gritted teeth reaction I had to the whole thing. I didn't do anything as crass as make a bargain with God, "Heal my mother and I will follow you." But I did say, well, as long as I'm talking to you, if there is anything you want to say to me, I'll listen. My mother did recover, and I promptly forgot all about my conversations with God and went back to normal life. Over the next couple of months, though, I started feeling this tugging, like a magnetic force, like a wooing. Once I became consciously aware of it, I started resisting. I said, "No, no, I don't wanna go! I believe in gay marriage!" Gradually, this tug or war between me and God wore me down, and three and a half months after my mother's accident, I said, "Okay, God. I have all these questions,

doubts, and issues, but I'll just give them to you." It is interesting that when my mother passed away, it was one year exactly from the date of her accident. It may have been plain coincidence, or an astrological event, but it seemed to me that God had used my mother to bring me back, and then had given me one extra year with her ... a very good year, and she did end up passing very peacefully, as I sat by her side. I would be less than honest if I told you I never have any doubts about my faith. I tend to be pretty intellectual, and sometimes intellectually it all just seems silly. But to my intellect, the concepts of eternity and infinity, both of which pretty much have to be true, are a little hard to wrap my mind around. I find it pretty doggone hard to believe that I can pick up my cell phone and dial my daughter's cell phone number, she it will ring instantaneously on her

cell phone ... especially since she is right now in Georgia instead of California. With the millions of cell phones out there, how on earth does my call manage to find hers so precisely, so quickly, wherever she may be? I dunno! It's a mystery to me, and yet I know it works. And so does electricity, and airplanes, and all sorts of other things that my intellect would never allow me to have faith in. And I still have questions sitting in that box. But the bottom line is simply a relationship with God. That's all. peace, sharon Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >I like the sound of Deism, tell me more oh learned ones............ I can do no better than the Wikipedia entry, which pretty much tells all.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism. The most famous 17th/18th century Deists were peoople like John Toland, Matthew Tindal, Thomas Hobbes, Benjamin Franklin. Isaac Newton was also accused of being a Deist, but really wasn't - he had his own personal form of unorthdox Christianity... BB Peter

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment

[Guest guest]

Right on the witch doctor. Don't know where that came from, actually. Medicine man might have been better? peace, sharonPeter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon >Hi Peter. I remember really enjoying Mists of Avalon. Now of course you can just rent the DVD! I guess I always associated shamanism with the Native > American mystical practices. I suppose I have some conception that shaman = "witch doctor." Would that be correct? I've not hearrd good things about the film - apparently it misses quite a lot from the book - but as I've not seen / read either, I really have no way to judge. To be strictly accurate, shamanism is the practice of the tribal "mystics" from Siberia, Russia and Scandinavia - it's the practice of communing with the spirits of the land, in order to encourage things like good harvests, kind weather (particularly important in siberia and scandinavia!), protection from the elements, etc - basically the necessities of life. The tribal shaman would also be the healer ("doctor" if you like) for the tribe, and would work with spirits to help cure disease. All shamanic practice is done through

ecstatic trance, but there's absolutely no commonality as to how the trance state is achieved - in some places it was done with the use of carefully controlled amounts of drugs (which shouldn't in any way be associated with the drug culture we now have in the western world), in other places through music, singing, or dancing. Some shamans would spin around rapidly to achieve a trance, others would sit very still and hum or sing - it's purely down to the individual shaman! In terms of Native Americans, some of what their healers did was comparable with shamanism, so it's not entirely inaccurate to use the term "shaman" when referring to what they did - although I gather that N.A. practices differ quite widely across the continent, so I wouldn't like to say whether or not they are all "shamanistic". Incidentally, the term "witch-doctor" was one which was used by the European settlers as an offensive term for what they saw as "barbaric tribal practices", and isn't

really that nice, or that accurate (I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but it's good to be aware of anyway :-)) BB Peter

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

Thanks very much for the information. I will see the people who run the Quiet Centre, and hopefully our meditation, and the Buddhist group will not be banned next year.

 

BBJo

 

-

Peter

Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:21 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Hi Jo

 

>I get a little annoyed because there is a meditation group that uses the Quiet Centre on campus once a week. When it is Ramadan the centre is closed to all but

> Muslims! That means we go a whole month with no meditation. The Buddhists also cannot use it in that time.

 

I can't remember - is the centre part of the University? If so, then they're actually breaking the law by restricting it to the use of one religion at any period. The legal precedent was set about a year ago when a post office employee was sacked because he refused to take his shoes off in the quiet centre provided by his employers. He was sacked because the Muslims had complained that it was offensive to their religion - however, as a Heathen, he argued that it was part of his religion to wear shoes during spiritual practice, and that by sacking him, the post office were discriminating against him on religious grounds. He won the case, and the ruling was that if an employer provides a place for spiritual practice, it must be available to all people to use as their spirituality dictates, and that one religion can not be favoured above others, regardless of whether there is one person in that religion or 1 million. This ruling would also cover the university, as they are providing a quiet centre for their staff and students, and they are in breach of the law by favouring one religion above all others. It may be worth highlighting that to them.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I would like to go there again. I thought it was very interesting. I wonder if they still have bats :-)

 

BBJo

 

-

Peter

Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:29 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Hi Jo

 

>Is that the Hellfire Caves where a whole group of us went for a visit?

 

That's the ones... and where I got one of my bats :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

HI Sharon

 

I don't think that is correct in this case. The Quiet Centre is there for religious/spiritual groups only. It is not used for anything else.

 

Jo

 

-

Shhhhh

Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:53 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

I suppose this is all setting up a really good excellent for no religious use of public property, isn't it?

 

peace,

sharonPeter <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

 

Hi Jo

 

>I get a little annoyed because there is a meditation group that uses the Quiet Centre on campus once a week. When it is Ramadan the centre is closed to all but

> Muslims! That means we go a whole month with no meditation. The Buddhists also cannot use it in that time.

 

I can't remember - is the centre part of the University? If so, then they're actually breaking the law by restricting it to the use of one religion at any period. The legal precedent was set about a year ago when a post office employee was sacked because he refused to take his shoes off in the quiet centre provided by his employers. He was sacked because the Muslims had complained that it was offensive to their religion - however, as a Heathen, he argued that it was part of his religion to wear shoes during spiritual practice, and that by sacking him, the post office were discriminating against him on religious grounds. He won the case, and the ruling was that if an employer provides a place for spiritual practice, it must be available to all people to use as their spirituality dictates, and that one religion can not be favoured above others, regardless of whether there is one person in that religion or 1 million. This ruling would also cover the university, as they are providing a quiet centre for their staff and students, and they are in breach of the law by favouring one religion above all others. It may be worth highlighting that to them.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

 

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

Presumably the whirling Dervishes whirl to get into trance state, or to meditate.

 

BBJo

 

-

Peter

Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:30 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Hi Sharon

 

>Hi Peter. I remember really enjoying Mists of Avalon. Now of course you can just rent the DVD! I guess I always associated shamanism with the Native

> American mystical practices. I suppose I have some conception that shaman = "witch doctor." Would that be correct?

 

I've not hearrd good things about the film - apparently it misses quite a lot from the book - but as I've not seen / read either, I really have no way to judge.

 

To be strictly accurate, shamanism is the practice of the tribal "mystics" from Siberia, Russia and Scandinavia - it's the practice of communing with the spirits of the land, in order to encourage things like good harvests, kind weather (particularly important in siberia and scandinavia!), protection from the elements, etc - basically the necessities of life. The tribal shaman would also be the healer ("doctor" if you like) for the tribe, and would work with spirits to help cure disease. All shamanic practice is done through ecstatic trance, but there's absolutely no commonality as to how the trance state is achieved - in some places it was done with the use of carefully controlled amounts of drugs (which shouldn't in any way be associated with the drug culture we now have in the western world), in other places through music, singing, or dancing. Some shamans would spin around rapidly to achieve a trance, others would sit very still and hum or sing - it's purely down to the individual shaman! In terms of Native Americans, some of what their healers did was comparable with shamanism, so it's not entirely inaccurate to use the term "shaman" when referring to what they did - although I gather that N.A. practices differ quite widely across the continent, so I wouldn't like to say whether or not they are all "shamanistic". Incidentally, the term "witch-doctor" was one which was used by the European settlers as an offensive term for what they saw as "barbaric tribal practices", and isn't really that nice, or that accurate (I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but it's good to be aware of anyway :-))

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

I'm really sorry to hear about your daughter being taken away. It must have been/be terrible for you, and her.

 

We all come to our spirituality (or not) in our own ways, and what makes sense to one person does not make sense to another - which is why I think we should all accept each other.

 

BBJo

 

-

Shhhhh

Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:57 AM

Re: Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Gee, that sounds much like the religion I made up!

 

Okay, if you aren't interested don't read on, but just by way of explanation, here is a bit of my most recent religious history.

 

Eighteen years ago, my nine year old daughter was kidnapped, the victim of a witnessed stranger abduction. She has never been found. About a year after her kidnapping, I turned my back on almost everything ... my faith in God, my marriage, everything really except my other kids.

 

Before I had become a Christian, I'd been a seeker. After I left my faith, I went back to seeking. I had some belief in some sort of a destiny, or a path, and was looking for mine. I explored a lot, read a lot, delved very deeply into astrology. I came to have a lot of psychics among my personal friends ... they were people I had sought out, or had sought me out, or had been referred to me in one way or another, with regard to my daughter's kidnapping.

 

Anyway, that all went on for fourteen years. Then a little over three years ago my mother had an accident. She was suffering from advanced emphysema and I knew she didn't have very long to live. Had she just grown ill and passed on, that would have been it. But instead she fractured a rib, punctured a lung, had all kinds of medical intervention, and on top of it all developed a kind of psychosis. I had very firm ideas about how my mother should pass on, and this was not it! It was something that absolutely drove me to prayer.

 

It seemed a little odd to me, that prayer. As I think I've mentioned, I had not even been able to say "God" for fifteen years. During that time I'd been down many a spiritual path, and there were any number of spiritual things I might have drawn on at that moment. But the minute I sat down to pray, I knew who it was I was talking to. I knew it i part because of the gritted teeth reaction I had to the whole thing.

 

I didn't do anything as crass as make a bargain with God, "Heal my mother and I will follow you." But I did say, well, as long as I'm talking to you, if there is anything you want to say to me, I'll listen. My mother did recover, and I promptly forgot all about my conversations with God and went back to normal life.

 

Over the next couple of months, though, I started feeling this tugging, like a magnetic force, like a wooing. Once I became consciously aware of it, I started resisting. I said, "No, no, I don't wanna go! I believe in gay marriage!" Gradually, this tug or war between me and God wore me down, and three and a half months after my mother's accident, I said, "Okay, God. I have all these questions, doubts, and issues, but I'll just give them to you."

 

It is interesting that when my mother passed away, it was one year exactly from the date of her accident. It may have been plain coincidence, or an astrological event, but it seemed to me that God had used my mother to bring me back, and then had given me one extra year with her ... a very good year, and she did end up passing very peacefully, as I sat by her side.

 

I would be less than honest if I told you I never have any doubts about my faith. I tend to be pretty intellectual, and sometimes intellectually it all just seems silly. But to my intellect, the concepts of eternity and infinity, both of which pretty much have to be true, are a little hard to wrap my mind around. I find it pretty doggone hard to believe that I can pick up my cell phone and dial my daughter's cell phone number, she it will ring instantaneously on her cell phone ... especially since she is right now in Georgia instead of California. With the millions of cell phones out there, how on earth does my call manage to find hers so precisely, so quickly, wherever she may be? I dunno! It's a mystery to me, and yet I know it works. And so does electricity, and airplanes, and all sorts of other things that my intellect would never allow me to have faith in.

 

And I still have questions sitting in that box. But the bottom line is simply a relationship with God.

 

That's all.

 

peace,

sharon Peter <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

 

Hi Peter

 

>I like the sound of Deism, tell me more oh learned ones............

 

I can do no better than the Wikipedia entry, which pretty much tells all.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism. The most famous 17th/18th century Deists were peoople like John Toland, Matthew Tindal, Thomas Hobbes, Benjamin Franklin. Isaac Newton was also accused of being a Deist, but really wasn't - he had his own personal form of unorthdox Christianity...

 

BB

Peter

 

 

 

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment

[Guest guest]

I was kidding really, well kind of ... it just seemed to fit into the separation argument, in that one person's religion libertarian "needs" steps on somebody else's religious libertarian toes. Sorry, awkward wording. Kind of like a mom ... "Okay, if you can't play nicely I'm taking the toy away!" peace, sharonjo <jo.heartwork wrote: HI Sharon I don't think that is correct in this case. The Quiet Centre is there for religious/spiritual groups only. It is not used for anything else. Jo - Shhhhh Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:53 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges I suppose this is all setting up a

really good excellent for no religious use of public property, isn't it? peace, sharonPeter <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Jo >I get a little annoyed because there is a meditation group that uses the Quiet Centre on campus once a week. When it is Ramadan the centre is closed to all but > Muslims! That means we go a whole month with no meditation. The Buddhists also cannot use it in that time. I can't remember - is the centre part

of the University? If so, then they're actually breaking the law by restricting it to the use of one religion at any period. The legal precedent was set about a year ago when a post office employee was sacked because he refused to take his shoes off in the quiet centre provided by his employers. He was sacked because the Muslims had complained that it was offensive to their religion - however, as a Heathen, he argued that it was part of his religion to wear shoes during spiritual practice, and that by sacking him, the post office were discriminating against him on religious grounds. He won the case, and the ruling was that if an employer provides a place for spiritual practice, it must be available to all people to use as their spirituality dictates, and that one religion can not be favoured above others, regardless of whether there is one person in that religion or 1 million. This ruling would also cover the university, as they are providing a quiet centre for their

staff and students, and they are in breach of the law by favouring one religion above all others. It may be worth highlighting that to them. BB Peter Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment

Sponsored Link Degrees for working adults in as fast as 1 year. Bachelors, Masters, Associates. Top schools

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

Thanks for sharing that - there's something particularly "real" about reading what you said about your daughter being abducted - it's the sort of thing that you hear about on the news and never think any more of - but when it's someone you've had conversations with, even e-mail conversations, you realise it can happen to anyone. And I'm not at all surprised at your reaction to it. I don't have kids, but I'd be pretty traumatised if that happened to anyone I care about - and your own children arre obviously that bit more special.

 

Anyway, just wanted to make one comment....

 

>Over the next couple of months, though, I started feeling this tugging, like a magnetic force, like a wooing. Once I became consciously aware of it, I started

> resisting. I said, "No, no, I don't wanna go! I believe in gay marriage!" Gradually, this tug or war between me and God wore me down, and three and a half

> months after my mother's accident, I said, "Okay, God. I have all these questions, doubts, and issues, but I'll just give them to you."

 

I always think it's important to remember that the bible was written by human beings, and while they may have been divinely inspired, they undoubtedly also put some of their own cultural bias into their writings. I have never seen any reason why belief in a Christian God should necessarily mean that youou have to accept *everything* that was written by those people. Of course, there are "core" teachings that make a Christian a Christian, but I'm pretty sure that you (and most Christians) would be horrified at the thought of offering a ritual sacrrifice (as per Leviticus), or stoning someone for wearing mixed fabrics... I don't see why a belief in God should automatically mean that you would have to stop supporting gay rights issues - after all, supporting the rights of others surely comes under the heading of "love thy neighbour".

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>Right on the witch doctor. Don't know where that came from, actually. Medicine man might have been better?

 

Possibly. I'm not sure there is an appropriate term in Western culture for what they do - medicine man is definitely better, but somehow it doesn't "feel" right to me - it's almost like placing the ancient healing technniques in the context of modern medicinal practice. Although it's quite possible that I'm just being overly picky :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Sharon, I am so sorry about your daughter, that is just so sad for any parent to loose a child. The Valley Vegan............Shhhhh <compassion2grace wrote: Gee, that sounds much like the religion I made up! Okay, if you aren't interested don't read on, but just by way of explanation, here is a bit of my most recent religious history. Eighteen years ago, my nine year old daughter was

kidnapped, the victim of a witnessed stranger abduction. She has never been found. About a year after her kidnapping, I turned my back on almost everything ... my faith in God, my marriage, everything really except my other kids. Before I had become a Christian, I'd been a seeker. After I left my faith, I went back to seeking. I had some belief in some sort of a destiny, or a path, and was looking for mine. I explored a lot, read a lot, delved very deeply into astrology. I came to have a lot of psychics among my personal friends ... they were people I had sought out, or had sought me out, or had been referred to me in one way or another, with regard to my daughter's kidnapping. Anyway, that all went on for fourteen years. Then a little over three years ago my mother had an accident. She was suffering from advanced emphysema and I knew she didn't have very

long to live. Had she just grown ill and passed on, that would have been it. But instead she fractured a rib, punctured a lung, had all kinds of medical intervention, and on top of it all developed a kind of psychosis. I had very firm ideas about how my mother should pass on, and this was not it! It was something that absolutely drove me to prayer. It seemed a little odd to me, that prayer. As I think I've mentioned, I had not even been able to say "God" for fifteen years. During that time I'd been down many a spiritual path, and there were any number of spiritual things I might have drawn on at that moment. But the minute I sat down to pray, I knew who it was I was talking to. I knew it i part because of the gritted teeth reaction I had to the whole thing. I didn't do anything as crass as make a bargain with God, "Heal my mother and I will follow

you." But I did say, well, as long as I'm talking to you, if there is anything you want to say to me, I'll listen. My mother did recover, and I promptly forgot all about my conversations with God and went back to normal life. Over the next couple of months, though, I started feeling this tugging, like a magnetic force, like a wooing. Once I became consciously aware of it, I started resisting. I said, "No, no, I don't wanna go! I believe in gay marriage!" Gradually, this tug or war between me and God wore me down, and three and a half months after my mother's accident, I said, "Okay, God. I have all these questions, doubts, and issues, but I'll just give them to you." It is interesting that when my mother passed away, it was one year exactly from the date of her accident. It may have been plain coincidence, or an astrological event, but it seemed to me that God had used

my mother to bring me back, and then had given me one extra year with her ... a very good year, and she did end up passing very peacefully, as I sat by her side. I would be less than honest if I told you I never have any doubts about my faith. I tend to be pretty intellectual, and sometimes intellectually it all just seems silly. But to my intellect, the concepts of eternity and infinity, both of which pretty much have to be true, are a little hard to wrap my mind around. I find it pretty doggone hard to believe that I can pick up my cell phone and dial my daughter's cell phone number, she it will ring instantaneously on her cell phone ... especially since she is right now in Georgia instead of California. With the millions of cell phones out there, how on earth does my call manage to find hers so precisely, so quickly, wherever she may be? I dunno! It's a mystery to me, and yet I know it works. And so

does electricity, and airplanes, and all sorts of other things that my intellect would never allow me to have faith in. And I still have questions sitting in that box. But the bottom line is simply a relationship with God. That's all. peace, sharon Peter <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter >I like the sound of Deism, tell me more oh learned ones............ I can do no better than the Wikipedia entry, which pretty much tells all.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism. The most famous 17th/18th century Deists were peoople like John Toland, Matthew Tindal, Thomas Hobbes, Benjamin Franklin. Isaac Newton was also accused of being a Deist, but really wasn't - he had his own personal form of unorthdox Christianity... BB Peter Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment Peter H

 

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Thanks, Peter. I have been asked to speak often on the subject of child safety, and one day I asked someone, "Why me?" After all, I didn't seem like a poster child for success in the area. But she said it is because when people meet me they realize that it is actually something that actually happens to real people. I have a lot of stuff in that "box" I spoke of previously. And as I said, for me, I am not about telling people the way they are living their lives is wrong. If God is real, then he is really able to let people know what he wants of them. peace, sharonPeter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon Thanks for sharing that - there's something particularly "real" about reading what you said about your daughter being abducted - it's the sort of thing that you hear about on the news and never think any more of - but when it's someone you've had conversations with, even e-mail conversations, you realise it can happen to anyone. And I'm not at all surprised at your reaction to it. I don't have kids, but I'd be pretty traumatised if that happened to anyone I care about - and your own children arre obviously that bit more special. Anyway, just wanted to make one comment.... >Over the next couple of months, though, I started feeling this tugging, like a magnetic force, like a wooing. Once I became consciously aware of it, I started > resisting. I said, "No, no, I don't wanna go! I believe in gay marriage!" Gradually, this tug or war between me and God wore me down, and three and a half > months after my mother's accident, I said, "Okay, God. I have all these questions, doubts, and issues, but I'll just give them to you." I always think it's important to remember that the bible was written by human beings, and while they may have been divinely inspired, they undoubtedly also put some of their own cultural bias into their writings. I have never seen any reason why belief in a Christian God should

necessarily mean that youou have to accept *everything* that was written by those people. Of course, there are "core" teachings that make a Christian a Christian, but I'm pretty sure that you (and most Christians) would be horrified at the thought of offering a ritual sacrrifice (as per Leviticus), or stoning someone for wearing mixed fabrics... I don't see why a belief in God should automatically mean that you would have to stop supporting gay rights issues - after all, supporting the rights of others surely comes under the heading of "love thy neighbour". BB Peter

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Thanks, VV.peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Sharon, I am so sorry about your daughter, that is just so sad for any parent to loose a child. The Valley Vegan............Shhhhh <compassion2grace > wrote: Gee, that sounds much like the religion I made up! Okay, if you

aren't interested don't read on, but just by way of explanation, here is a bit of my most recent religious history. Eighteen years ago, my nine year old daughter was kidnapped, the victim of a witnessed stranger abduction. She has never been found. About a year after her kidnapping, I turned my back on almost everything ... my faith in God, my marriage, everything really except my other kids. Before I had become a Christian, I'd been a seeker. After I left my faith, I went back to seeking. I had some belief in some sort of a destiny, or a path, and was looking for mine. I explored a lot, read a lot, delved very deeply into astrology. I came to have a lot of psychics among my personal friends ... they were people I had sought out, or had sought me out, or had been referred to me in one way or another, with regard to my daughter's kidnapping. Anyway, that all went on for fourteen years. Then a little over three years ago my mother had an accident. She was suffering from advanced emphysema and I knew she didn't have very long to live. Had she just grown ill and passed on, that would have been it. But instead she fractured a rib, punctured a lung, had all kinds of medical intervention, and on top of it all developed a kind of psychosis. I had very firm ideas about how my mother should pass on, and this was not it! It was something that absolutely drove me to prayer. It seemed a little odd to me, that prayer. As I think I've mentioned, I had not even been able to say "God" for fifteen years. During that time I'd been down many a spiritual path, and there were any number of spiritual things I might have drawn on at that moment. But the minute I sat down to pray, I knew who it was I was talking to. I knew it i part

because of the gritted teeth reaction I had to the whole thing. I didn't do anything as crass as make a bargain with God, "Heal my mother and I will follow you." But I did say, well, as long as I'm talking to you, if there is anything you want to say to me, I'll listen. My mother did recover, and I promptly forgot all about my conversations with God and went back to normal life. Over the next couple of months, though, I started feeling this tugging, like a magnetic force, like a wooing. Once I became consciously aware of it, I started resisting. I said, "No, no, I don't wanna go! I believe in gay marriage!" Gradually, this tug or war between me and God wore me down, and three and a half months after my mother's accident, I said, "Okay, God. I have all these questions, doubts, and issues, but I'll just give them to you." It is

interesting that when my mother passed away, it was one year exactly from the date of her accident. It may have been plain coincidence, or an astrological event, but it seemed to me that God had used my mother to bring me back, and then had given me one extra year with her ... a very good year, and she did end up passing very peacefully, as I sat by her side. I would be less than honest if I told you I never have any doubts about my faith. I tend to be pretty intellectual, and sometimes intellectually it all just seems silly. But to my intellect, the concepts of eternity and infinity, both of which pretty much have to be true, are a little hard to wrap my mind around. I find it pretty doggone hard to believe that I can pick up my cell phone and dial my daughter's cell phone number, she it will ring instantaneously on her cell phone ... especially since she is right now in Georgia instead of California. With the

millions of cell phones out there, how on earth does my call manage to find hers so precisely, so quickly, wherever she may be? I dunno! It's a mystery to me, and yet I know it works. And so does electricity, and airplanes, and all sorts of other things that my intellect would never allow me to have faith in. And I still have questions sitting in that box. But the bottom line is simply a relationship with God. That's all. peace, sharon Peter <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter >I like the sound of Deism, tell me more oh learned ones............ I can do no better than the Wikipedia entry, which pretty much tells all.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism. The most famous 17th/18th century Deists were peoople like John Toland, Matthew Tindal, Thomas Hobbes, Benjamin Franklin. Isaac Newton was also accused of being a Deist, but really wasn't - he had his own personal form of unorthdox Christianity... BB Peter Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house

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