Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

I would imagine that gays/lesbians feel wary of Christians because the Christian church appears to be anti-gay. Gay people cannot become priests/vicars. The church has historically been imfair to women and tp gays. I auspect these people, and Pagans, have felt subject to prejudice for a long time. Maybe the situation is becoming more fair now. I'm not saying that prejudice is good, just that it happens, but maybe Christians haven't been aware of their own prejudices.

 

Jo

 

-

Sharon Murch

Monday, November 20, 2006 8:46 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them."

 

I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial.

 

My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant.

 

I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?

 

I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice.

 

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

 

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

 

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

 

 

 

 

 

 

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

well..i know that over here, the Espicopalian church is having a rift with the Anglican over the US's appointment of gay priests and a bishop....

jo Nov 20, 2006 5:59 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Hi Sharon

 

I would imagine that gays/lesbians feel wary of Christians because the Christian church appears to be anti-gay. Gay people cannot become priests/vicars. The church has historically been imfair to women and tp gays. I auspect these people, and Pagans, have felt subject to prejudice for a long time. Maybe the situation is becoming more fair now. I'm not saying that prejudice is good, just that it happens, but maybe Christians haven't been aware of their own prejudices.

 

Jo

 

-

Sharon Murch

Monday, November 20, 2006 8:46 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them."

 

I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial.

 

My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant.

 

I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?

 

I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice.

 

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

 

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

 

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

 

 

 

 

 

 

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

 

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

[Guest guest]

See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a particular religion. As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself, for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our "diversity." Sharon fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: i understand where you are coming from but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of attack..not in this country... i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK... but..i can tell ya this... here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens.. (now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging yer religious views/choices/life) everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone its on the money fer bacchus' sake.... now that the "holidays" are fast

approaching, its like a giant wave is cascading down... you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to have them turned off now..i can admit some folks over react but... imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers during ramadan... how would you think people would react? how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah? and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book" now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a festival of high fire in mongolia) again..not trying to belittle your faith but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being forced on me... we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies

in me throat) and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only they are correct and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and have the loudest voices... cheers fraggle Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel

rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them." I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally

find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial. My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant. I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not

about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I? I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice. Sharon fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com>To:

Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges hey sharon so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack? coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am

actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof"

rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody. So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you. Peace! Sharon peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to

tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle

?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of

beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

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[Guest guest]

Perhaps, but I can tell you that is the politically correct thing these days. Of course, if they were going around handing out ANTI this or that material ... well, in my mind they are setting out on the wrong foot. Sharonjo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi Sharon Maybe the reaction has happened because of the way the

CU's behaved to other groups. Jo - Sharon Murch Monday, November 20, 2006 7:40 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Okay, I have

actually read the article now, and you guys should also. What I am reading is that the CU's want to be able to say who will be able to be a governing/influencing member of their own groups. And I do believe they should have that right, shouldn't they? Should vegan groups be forced to have pharmaceutical representatives talk about the good of testing on animals, and have those people serve on their governing boards? No protesting would go on that way, for certain! Should gay rights groups be forced to have people who disagree with their lifestyle come and talk about it and vote on their policies? No. The CU's aren't trying to deny any of the other groups the right to exist. They are simply trying to deny membership in their own

society to people who disagree with their beliefs. Come on, people. Let's be a little more tolerant. sharon peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:09:56 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges I didnt realise, thats terrible. Will their legal action hold any water in

this day and age? I wouldnt have thought so? The Valley Vegan....... ....Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote: Hi Peter I don't think you understand.. .. it's got nothing to do with people wanting to join the Christian Unions. It's to do with the CUs wanting to stop non-Christians from having posts at the Union, and banning other religious societies. BB Peter - peter VV @gro ups.com Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge? The Valley Vegan....... ......... ...jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote: Hi

Peter There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church. I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups. Jo - peter VV @gro ups.com Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why

should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow

the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting

homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian

Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays,

lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

Sponsored Link Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro-*Terms

[Guest guest]

hi Sharon,

 

in my town, Christians rule,I think that Christmas lights are very

pretty and my children get Christmas gifts.

 

but one example that they rule is,

for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home

and said that his school is calling Halloween " Dress Up Day "

 

A bunch of Parents in his school signed a petition saying that

Halloween is Devil Worship.

It was the first time that my son learned about " The Devil "

 

I have never mentioned the devil to my kid, as I see no reason why.

 

We had a hard time trying to get a costume for him becuase I got a

note from his school saying that costumes Could NOT be scary.

 

They requested that children must dress up as book characters.

but " harry Potter " was considered scary, since none of the children

in his class read this book. This is a public school.

 

I respect Christians, because I respect a persons private

spirituality. My aunts are roman catholic and my F-I-L is a born again.

but I feel that (at least in my town) they are the majority.

 

and sometimes I feel that when someone says " I don't believe in God "

that they are percieved by others as evil.

 

in reality some atheist are very kind and compassionate.

 

-anouk

 

, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace

wrote:

>

> See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... " In God We Trust "

has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually

people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in

point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a

particular religion.

>

> As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself,

for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly

personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can

see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other

things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our

" diversity. "

>

> Sharon

>

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

> i understand where you are coming from

> but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of

attack..not in this country...

> i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the

how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

We have been shouted at and told we are going to hell. Our

spirituality has been extremely badly treated by Christianity and

probably Islam as well. Lots of Pagans, particularly in America, are

still too frightened to come out, and have to hide their beliefs

because too many Christians are not kind or tolerant.

 

BB

Jo

 

, " flower child " <zurumato

wrote:

>

> hi Sharon,

>

> in my town, Christians rule,I think that Christmas lights are very

> pretty and my children get Christmas gifts.

>

> but one example that they rule is,

> for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home

> and said that his school is calling Halloween " Dress Up Day "

>

> A bunch of Parents in his school signed a petition saying that

> Halloween is Devil Worship.

> It was the first time that my son learned about " The Devil "

>

> I have never mentioned the devil to my kid, as I see no reason why.

>

> We had a hard time trying to get a costume for him becuase I got a

> note from his school saying that costumes Could NOT be scary.

>

> They requested that children must dress up as book characters.

> but " harry Potter " was considered scary, since none of the children

> in his class read this book. This is a public school.

>

> I respect Christians, because I respect a persons private

> spirituality. My aunts are roman catholic and my F-I-L is a born

again.

> but I feel that (at least in my town) they are the majority.

>

> and sometimes I feel that when someone says " I don't believe in God "

> that they are percieved by others as evil.

>

> in reality some atheist are very kind and compassionate.

>

> -anouk

>

> , Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@>

> wrote:

> >

> > See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... " In God We Trust "

> has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually

> people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in

> point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with

a

> particular religion.

> >

> > As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself,

> for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly

> personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can

> see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those

other

> things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our

> " diversity. "

> >

> > Sharon

> >

> >

> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@> wrote:

> > i understand where you are coming from

> > but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of

> attack..not in this country...

> > i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on

the

> how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, Anouk, I'm surprised. In our school district most of the schools do not allow kids to wear any costumes at all to school on Halloween, although they call it Halloween. But we do have to be careful not to say Christmas break or Easter break. They are winter break and spring break. I don't think of Christmas as being a Christian celebration. I was actually vehemently anti-Christian for a part of my life and I had no problem at all with Christmas. All those lights and trees have their origins other religious practices and they just adapted them for "Christian" use. I don't think you need to be Christian to have Santa Claus come to your house. Sharonwer child <zurumato wrote: hi Sharon,in my town, Christians rule,I think that Christmas lights are verypretty and my children get Christmas gifts. but one example that they rule is, for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came homeand said that his school is calling Halloween "Dress Up Day"A bunch of Parents in his school signed a petition saying thatHalloween is Devil Worship. It was the first time that my son learned about "The Devil"I have never mentioned the devil to my kid, as I see no reason why. We had a hard time trying to get a costume for him becuase I got anote from his school saying that costumes Could NOT be

scary. They requested that children must dress up as book characters. but "harry Potter" was considered scary, since none of the children in his class read this book. This is a public school. I respect Christians, because I respect a persons privatespirituality. My aunts are roman catholic and my F-I-L is a born again. but I feel that (at least in my town) they are the majority. and sometimes I feel that when someone says "I don't believe in God"that they are percieved by others as evil. in reality some atheist are very kind and compassionate. -anouk , Sharon Murch <compassion2gracewrote:>> See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust"has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actuallypeople bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack.

And inpoint of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with aparticular religion. > > As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself,for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highlypersonal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I cansee your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those otherthings being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our"diversity."> > Sharon> > > fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:> i understand where you are coming from> but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort ofattack..not in this country...> i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on thehow's and why's on Uni life in the UK...> >

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $420,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new house payment

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

>I didnt realise, thats terrible. Will their legal action hold any water in this day and age? I wouldnt have

> thought so?

 

That's a fine question. The new religious hate laws haven't really been tested in court yet, so if they end up with a fundamentalist Christian judge, they could quite possibly win....

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>Okay, I have actually read the article now, and you guys should also. What I am reading is that the CU's want

> to be able to say who will be able to be a governing/influencing member of their own groups. And I do believe

>they should have that right, shouldn't they? Should vegan groups be forced to have pharmaceutical

> representatives talk about the good of testing on animals, and have those people serve on their governing

> boards? No protesting would go on that way, for certain! Should gay rights groups be forced to have people

> who disagree with their lifestyle come and talk about it and vote on their policies? No.

 

That is indeed what the article says. However, the article is not written from an objective point of view, and has completely ignored the real reasons why these CUs have been banned. I am a student at Bristol University, and have direct experience of the CU here. I am also a member of the University Pagan Network, and have spoken to people in other universities about their experiences with the CUs. Edinburgh is one of the Universities which is involved in the University Pagan Network, and I have spoken to people there about how the CU actively campaigns against the existence of non-Christian religious groups, as they do at Bristol, and other universities. I am talking here from direct experience - I attended the Bristol University AGM 2 years ago, where the Christian Union put forward a motion that all non-Christian societies be banned from affiliation to the Union, and use of the Union and Chaplaincy buildings. This is not second hand knowledge from a biased newspaper report, this is actual first hand experience.

 

 

>The CU's aren't trying to deny any of the other groups the right to exist.

 

Yes they are. Just because the newspaper hasn't reported it, doesn't mean that this is not the case.

 

>Come on, people. Let's be a little more tolerant.

 

I absolutely agree - let's have some tolerance for those of us who don't belong to the majority religion in this country.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>There is no question that there are people who attack others in the name of all sorts of

> religions. Personally I am not one of them, and neither are any of the Christians I am

> associated with. The essence of Christianity to me is about a relationship with God through

> Christ. I don't know whether that is the source or not, but I personally feel filled to

> overflowing with love. And so do those other Christians I was talking about. It is not my

> place to judge anybody.

 

And I have to say, this is true for the vast majority of Christians I know. However, most Christians who feel like that also feel alienated from the University Christian Unions because the CUs do not generally practice their Christianity in that way. The Bristol Uni CU has about 200 members - I know about 20 Christians at Uni, none of them are members of the CU, because if they were, they would be encouraged to avoid anyone with different religions.

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question

> feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil

> liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't

> find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it

> was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way:

> " San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them. "

 

I think you need to look at it from the point of view of other religions. Within living memory, my spiritual practice was illegal in the UK - I could have been put in prison for my beliefs. 100 Years ago I could have been executed for them. My spirituality is *still* illegal in Ireland, and several African countries, and there are moves to make it illegal in South Africa, and in most South American countries. With Bush in the Whitehouse, it won't be long before it is made illegal in the US as well.

 

 

Christianity on the other hand is a state recognised and supported religion in just about every country in the Western World. And despite the supposed separation of church and state in the US, there are still very blatant signs that this is not the case ( " One Nation Under God " ring any bells?)

 

 

Christians seem to be considering the removal of their right to persecute other religions as a breach of their liberties, without any comprehension of the fight that other religions have had to go through simply to be allowed to practice without going to jail or being executed.

 

 

There is still a huge imbalance in civil liberties which favours Christianity over every other religion, and that still needs to be addressed - if that means that Christianity has to lose some rights in order to allow other religions to have some rights, then you'd surely have to say that it needs to happen. Christianity has enjoyed a stronghold over religious rights for 1500 years - it is inevitably going to feel like they are losing some power when that stronghold is being pulled away to give others an equal opportunity and equl rights.

 

 

The same comments with regard to " civil liberties " were made by powerful men when women were given the vote, and then again when laws were introduced to give women equal employment opportunities and equal pay. After over 100 years of that fight, women *still* don't have the same opportunities as men, but at least it is now accepted that this should be the case (at least no-one would dare to suggest otherwise in public). I just hope it doesn't take as long for religious rights to reach the same position.

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... " In God We Trust " has been on the money for 200 years

 

Actually, it was put on the dollar bill in the 1940s by Roosevelt....

 

> but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not

> a name, not even associated with a particular religion.

 

Ah - but if that were what was meant, it would be a little " g " , not a capital " G " . And why is it not " in gods we trust " ? Or " in goddesses we trust " ?, or " in deities we trust " ?

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk

 

>but one example that they rule is,

>for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home

>and said that his school is calling Halloween " Dress Up Day "

 

OK... so Christianity now has a problem with the celebration of " All Saints Eve " (which is what " HallowE'en " means)???!!!!????

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

well..actually..."In god we trust" only appeared on paper US currency in 1957

(it first appeared on a US coin in oike 1864 during the civil war, and became more widespread on coins in the lkate 1030's)

Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 5:26 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a particular religion.

 

As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself, for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our "diversity."

 

Sharon

 

fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

 

 

i understand where you are coming from

but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of attack..not in this country...

i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...

 

but..i can tell ya this...

here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens..

(now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging yer religious views/choices/life)

everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone

its on the money fer bacchus' sake....

now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a giant wave is cascading down...

 

you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to have them turned off

now..i can admit some folks over react

but...

imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers during ramadan...

how would you think people would react?

how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah?

and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book"

now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a festival of high fire in mongolia)

 

again..not trying to belittle your faith

but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being forced on me...

 

we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies in me throat)

and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith

 

but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only they are correct

and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and have the loudest voices...

cheers

fraggle

 

Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them."

 

I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial.

 

My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant.

 

I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?

 

I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice.

 

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

 

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

 

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

 

 

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

 

 

 

 

 

 

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

 

 

 

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History repeats itself

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[Guest guest]

What are the new religious hate laws about?Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter >I didnt realise, thats terrible. Will their legal action hold any water in this day and age? I wouldnt have > thought so? That's a fine question. The new religious hate laws haven't really been tested in court yet, so if they end up with a fundamentalist Christian judge, they could quite possibly win.... BB Peter

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[Guest guest]

Well, as I said, I don't believe that they have any business lobbying for the exclusion of other groups in a public forum. You can't deny others their freedom without losing part of your own. SharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon >Okay, I have actually read the article now, and you guys should also. What I am reading is that the CU's want > to be able to say who will be able to be a

governing/influencing member of their own groups. And I do believe >they should have that right, shouldn't they? Should vegan groups be forced to have pharmaceutical > representatives talk about the good of testing on animals, and have those people serve on their governing > boards? No protesting would go on that way, for certain! Should gay rights groups be forced to have people > who disagree with their lifestyle come and talk about it and vote on their policies? No. That is indeed what the article says. However, the article is not written from an objective point of view, and has completely ignored the real reasons why these CUs have been banned. I am a student at Bristol University, and have direct experience of the CU here. I am also a member of the University Pagan Network, and have spoken to people in other universities

about their experiences with the CUs. Edinburgh is one of the Universities which is involved in the University Pagan Network, and I have spoken to people there about how the CU actively campaigns against the existence of non-Christian religious groups, as they do at Bristol, and other universities. I am talking here from direct experience - I attended the Bristol University AGM 2 years ago, where the Christian Union put forward a motion that all non-Christian societies be banned from affiliation to the Union, and use of the Union and Chaplaincy buildings. This is not second hand knowledge from a biased newspaper report, this is actual first hand experience. >The CU's aren't trying to deny any of the other groups the right to exist. Yes they are. Just because the newspaper hasn't reported it, doesn't mean that this is not the case. >Come on, people. Let's be a little

more tolerant. I absolutely agree - let's have some tolerance for those of us who don't belong to the majority religion in this country. BB Peter

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[Guest guest]

I think that "Christian" is a term that is so overly broad anymore, it is hard to know just what you are talking about. It is a religion that in the last 2000 years has been politicized and culturized to the point where the real essence of it is lost. I don't know that this is true, but in a country that has its own official church, the Church of England, perhaps that is even more true, with some people confusing their patriotism and their religion. Or do they still have the Church of England? And sadly, a lot of that religion that has developed over the last 2000 years does nothing but put a church and its representatives as intermediaries between God and man, so man ends up developing a realtionship with the church instead of a relationship with God. SharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon >There is no question that there are people who attack others in the name of all sorts of > religions. Personally I am not one of them, and neither are any of the Christians I am > associated with. The essence of Christianity to me is about a relationship with God through > Christ. I don't know whether that is the source or not, but I personally feel filled to > overflowing with love. And so do those other Christians I was talking about. It is not

my > place to judge anybody. And I have to say, this is true for the vast majority of Christians I know. However, most Christians who feel like that also feel alienated from the University Christian Unions because the CUs do not generally practice their Christianity in that way. The Bristol Uni CU has about 200 members - I know about 20 Christians at Uni, none of them are members of the CU, because if they were, they would be encouraged to avoid anyone with different religions. BB Peter

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[Guest guest]

As I said previously, when I was speaking out against what you said the CU's were doing, you cannot deny others their freedom without losing a part of your own. Perhaps you could give women the right to vote by taking that right away from men, but would that be the best way? As long as anybody can have that right taken away from them, everybody is in danger of that. Peace! SharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon >Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question > feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil > liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't > find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it > was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: > "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them." I think you need to look at it from the point of view of other religions. Within living memory, my spiritual practice was illegal in the UK - I could have been put in prison for my beliefs. 100 Years ago I could have been executed for

them. My spirituality is *still* illegal in Ireland, and several African countries, and there are moves to make it illegal in South Africa, and in most South American countries. With Bush in the Whitehouse, it won't be long before it is made illegal in the US as well. Christianity on the other hand is a state recognised and supported religion in just about every country in the Western World. And despite the supposed separation of church and state in the US, there are still very blatant signs that this is not the case ("One Nation Under God" ring any bells?) Christians seem to be considering the removal of their right to persecute other religions as a breach of their liberties, without any comprehension of the fight that other religions have had to go through simply to be allowed to practice without going to jail or being executed. There is still a huge imbalance in civil

liberties which favours Christianity over every other religion, and that still needs to be addressed - if that means that Christianity has to lose some rights in order to allow other religions to have some rights, then you'd surely have to say that it needs to happen. Christianity has enjoyed a stronghold over religious rights for 1500 years - it is inevitably going to feel like they are losing some power when that stronghold is being pulled away to give others an equal opportunity and equl rights. The same comments with regard to "civil liberties" were made by powerful men when women were given the vote, and then again when laws were introduced to give women equal employment opportunities and equal pay. After over 100 years of that fight, women *still* don't have the same opportunities as men, but at least it is now accepted that this should be the case (at least no-one would dare to suggest otherwise in public). I just hope it doesn't take

as long for religious rights to reach the same position. BB Peter

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[Guest guest]

Well actually, Peter, it is in all capital letters: IN GOD WE TRUST. So it can be whatever you choose it to be. I went to the Hard Rock Cafe in New York a few years ago and they had a "God Wall." It was really beautiful. They had different representations from different religions. Can't remember totally clearly now everything that they had, but I believe a crucifix, Shiva, several others. And a krugerand. So there is room even for the atheists on a God Wall. People do not need to be offended by the word GOD. Although there is room for understanding that within my experience also. There was a time I could not say the word "God." If I had to refer to it, I called it "the G word." SharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon >See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust" has been on the money for 200 years Actually, it was put on the dollar bill in the 1940s by Roosevelt.... > but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not > a name, not even associated with a particular religion. Ah - but if that were what was meant, it would be a little "g", not

a capital "G". And why is it not "in gods we trust"? Or "in goddesses we trust"?, or "in deities we trust"? BB Peter

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[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>What are the new religious hate laws about?

 

Basically, they are laws which prevent people from spreading hatred of people because of their religion. Much like anti-racist laws prevent people from making derogatory comments about any ethnic group, the same is now true about religious groups. Up until the beginning of this year, the only thing that was illegal in this context was blasphemy, which was specifically " making a statement intended to offend the Christian faith " .

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

has had an issue for quite awhile....

 

 

Peter Kebbell Nov 21, 2006 5:12 AM Re: Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Anouk

 

>but one example that they rule is,

>for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home

>and said that his school is calling Halloween "Dress Up Day"

 

OK... so Christianity now has a problem with the celebration of "All Saints Eve" (which is what "HallowE'en" means)???!!!!????

 

BB

Peter

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

[Guest guest]

well, have to agree with you on those points sharon

Shhhhh Nov 21, 2006 9:08 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I think that "Christian" is a term that is so overly broad anymore, it is hard to know just what you are talking about. It is a religion that in the last 2000 years has been politicized and culturized to the point where the real essence of it is lost. I

 

And sadly, a lot of that religion that has developed over the last 2000 years does nothing but put a church and its representatives as intermediaries between God and man, so man ends up developing a realtionship with the church instead of a relationship with God.

 

Sharon

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>I think that " Christian " is a term that is so overly broad anymore, it is hard to know just what

> you are talking about.

 

I think the problem is that people often think of themselves as Christian (and thereby claim to do things in the name of Christianity) when they really don't act as Christians should. I mean, just look at George Bush! This isn't in any way restricted to Christianity - I've seen the same things in Islam, Hindu and Paganism, it's just a bit more obvious with the " use " of Christianity in this way, as the majority of our political and business leaders come from a Christian background...

 

 

> It is a religion that in the last 2000 years has been politicized and

> culturized to the point where the real essence of it is lost. I don't know that this is true, but in

> a country that has its own official church, the Church of England, perhaps that is even more

> true, with some people confusing their patriotism and their religion. Or do they still have the

> Church of England?

 

We do still have the C of E. I think it's both an advantage and a disadvantage. We don't have seperation of church and state like is meant to be the case in the US (Our head of state is still the head of the Church of England, albeit that she is effectively a figure-head who tends not to weild any genuine power). In some ways that's a disadvantage, because it means that, for instance, schools still have to have a Christian prayer in every assembly, and therefore parents from other religions have to bite their lips, or have their children taken out of assembly, which makes them stand-out. The advantage is, that at least it is clear that we live in a country where the church has some influence in the way the country is run... although the US is supposed to have seperation of church and state, in reality, this doesn't seem to always be the case, but because it's meant to be that way, open discussion of the pros and cons can often get stifled.

 

 

>And sadly, a lot of that religion that has developed over the last 2000 years does nothing but

> put a church and its representatives as intermediaries between God and man, so man ends

> up developing a realtionship with the church instead of a relationship with God.

 

Couldn't agree more. I think it's always sad when people don't feel the ability to connect with the divine for themselves (in whatever way they experience the divine), and certainly some historical aspects of the way the church has been run has encouraged that seperation. Of course, the same is true for many other religions as well... it comes back to the Douglas Adams concept: if someone wants to have power, they should under no circumstances be allowed to have any...

 

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Fraggle

 

>has had an issue for quite awhile....

 

OK - I have to admit, I don't get it. It would be like me suddenly deciding that I didn't like the summer solstice any more....

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

>Well actually, Peter, it is in all capital letters: IN GOD WE TRUST.

 

Fair enough - not being American, I don't look at the currency a lot :-)

 

However, it is still " god " in the singular - so only works for monotheistic religions, and for male deities, which of course brings in the whole issue of gender and patriachal concepts...

 

>People do not need to be offended by the word GOD. Although there is room for

> understanding that within my experience also. There was a time I could not say the word

> " God. " If I had to refer to it, I called it " the G word. "

 

I'm not at all offended by the word " god " , I just find it rather odd that it appears on the currency, and in the national oath, of a nation which is supposed to have seperation of religion and state....

 

BB

Peter