Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

November 19, 2006

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at

collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they

are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official

societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree

with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it

promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.Peter H

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November 19, 2006

Hi Peter

There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church.

I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups.

Jo

-

peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

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November 19, 2006

Hi Peter

There's more to this that what the article says....

"The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges.

Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting

homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality."

I only know about Edinburgh, out of those mentioned, but up there, the CU was handing out material which was libellous to other religions (I happen to know some of the Pagan Society there, and some of the stuff said about Paganism could have come from the Malleum Malleficarum.) I didn't know that they had been sanctioned by the University, but it's about time they were, as they do indeed promote religious hatred and homophobia - not just within their society, but across the whole university. Bristol CU were alsoo threatened with action: in the past 4 years, they've on several occassions attempted to book every room in the union building and chaplaincy at the times of other religion's major festivals, and have twice put motions to the Union AGM that all other religious societies should be banned from Union property. It's about time someone did something about these fundamentalist groups, and I'm delighted that someone finally has.

BB

Peter

November 19, 2006

I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge? The Valley Vegan...................jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi Peter There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the

church. I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups. Jo - peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action

against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a

statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said:

“The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last

year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

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November 19, 2006

Hi Peter

I don't think you understand.... it's got nothing to do with people wanting to join the Christian Unions. It's to do with the CUs wanting to stop non-Christians from having posts at the Union, and banning other religious societies.

BB

Peter

-

peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge?

The Valley Vegan...................jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

Hi Peter

There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church.

I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups.

Jo

-

peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Peter H

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November 19, 2006

Hi Peter

That sounds rather nasty - as you say fundamentalism. Di the CU manage to book all the rooms this year for other religions special days?

BBJo

-

Peter

Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:13 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Peter

There's more to this that what the article says....

"The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges.

Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting

homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality."

I only know about Edinburgh, out of those mentioned, but up there, the CU was handing out material which was libellous to other religions (I happen to know some of the Pagan Society there, and some of the stuff said about Paganism could have come from the Malleum Malleficarum.) I didn't know that they had been sanctioned by the University, but it's about time they were, as they do indeed promote religious hatred and homophobia - not just within their society, but across the whole university. Bristol CU were alsoo threatened with action: in the past 4 years, they've on several occassions attempted to book every room in the union building and chaplaincy at the times of other religion's major festivals, and have twice put motions to the Union AGM that all other religious societies should be banned from Union property. It's about time someone did something about these fundamentalist groups, and I'm delighted that someone finally has.

BB

Peter

November 19, 2006

I have known vegans join hunting lodges - as spies - they were hunt sabs.

Jo

-

peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge?

The Valley Vegan...................jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

Hi Peter

There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church.

I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups.

Jo

-

peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 19, 2006

Hi Jo

No - they tried it last year, and got told by the Union that if they attempted it again they'd be banned from the building!

BB

Peter

-

jo

Sunday, November 19, 2006 7:36 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Peter

That sounds rather nasty - as you say fundamentalism. Di the CU manage to book all the rooms this year for other religions special days?

BBJo

-

Peter

Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:13 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Peter

There's more to this that what the article says....

"The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges.

Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting

homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality."

I only know about Edinburgh, out of those mentioned, but up there, the CU was handing out material which was libellous to other religions (I happen to know some of the Pagan Society there, and some of the stuff said about Paganism could have come from the Malleum Malleficarum.) I didn't know that they had been sanctioned by the University, but it's about time they were, as they do indeed promote religious hatred and homophobia - not just within their society, but across the whole university. Bristol CU were alsoo threatened with action: in the past 4 years, they've on several occassions attempted to book every room in the union building and chaplaincy at the times of other religion's major festivals, and have twice put motions to the Union AGM that all other religious societies should be banned from Union property. It's about time someone did something about these fundamentalist groups, and I'm delighted that someone finally has.

BB

Peter

November 19, 2006

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of

religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

November 19, 2006

Hi Sharon

You don't need to confess to being Christian. Hopefully all our members on here, whatever religion, interact with respect and without feelings of superiority.

I think you have misunderstood the situation in the universities here. Unfortunately it was the Christian Union that was trying very hard to supress other religious Unions and societies. Up until recently this has been achieved, and members of religions other than Christianity have been at a distinct disadvantage. If the addressing of this unfair advantage that the Christian Union had is eroding the civil liberties of the Christians then it is only to restore the civil liberties (to an equal amount) for non-Christians. This surely must be a good thing, wouldn't you agree?

BBJo

-

Sharon Murch

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:45 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

November 19, 2006

Well, I probably should read the article and sort it all out, but let's just say that I think that all the groups should be allowed to exist, and I think that each group should be allowed to determine the requirements for membership in their own group. I know obvious extremism can be invoked here, from nazis to the kkk, but those groups should not exist for other reasons. I'm kind of likening it to the AETA kind of thing again, and while somebody used the analogy of why a vegan would want to join a hunting group, it might be more like a question of whether or not a vegan group should have the right to exclude hunters.

It is nice that you say I don't need to confess to being Christian. Perhaps it's because I live in such a socially liberal area of the world, and perhaps because I have a lot of ideas that line me up with those who tend to be more liberal (like veganism, for example) ... I've just found people tend to judge me in a certain way because of it, and I don't want that to happen here. I think it's because they expect I am going to judge them. I'm not.

Sharon

jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:42:49 PMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Sharon

You don't need to confess to being Christian. Hopefully all our members on here, whatever religion, interact with respect and without feelings of superiority.

I think you have misunderstood the situation in the universities here. Unfortunately it was the Christian Union that was trying very hard to supress other religious Unions and societies. Up until recently this has been achieved, and members of religions other than Christianity have been at a distinct disadvantage. If the addressing of this unfair advantage that the Christian Union had is eroding the civil liberties of the Christians then it is only to restore the civil liberties (to an equal amount) for non-Christians. This surely must be a good thing, wouldn't you agree?

BBJo

-

Sharon Murch

@gro ups.com

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:45 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or

that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

November 20, 2006

Hi Sharon

I have no objections to people being Christian. What I have problems with is people who think that their religion (whether that's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Paganism, or belief in the Great Spaghetti Monster) gives them the right to prevent others from practicing theirs. It is an unfortunate fact that most of the CUs at universities are filled with people who believe just that, and hand out leaflets condemning other religions, and preventing other religious groups from using rooms, etc. It hardly seems to be in keeping with the Christian teachings of " love thy neighbour " ....

BB

Peter

On 19/11/06, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote:

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, " Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. " What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your " free exercise thereof " rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to " offend " anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <

swpgh01

Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times

has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a "soft target" by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations' decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students' guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers' Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: "We haven't seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out." The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain's 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle "unprecedented" in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship's head of communications, said: "The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with." Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: "We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities." The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students' union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students' union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

November 20, 2006

I didnt realise, thats terrible. Will their legal action hold any water in this day and age? I wouldnt have thought so? The Valley Vegan...........Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter I don't think you understand.... it's got nothing to do with people wanting to join the Christian Unions. It's to do with the CUs wanting to stop non-Christians from

having posts at the Union, and banning other religious societies. BB Peter - peter VV Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to

join a hunting lodge? The Valley Vegan...................jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi Peter There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church. I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment

taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups. Jo - peter VV Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is

that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute

follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered

informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions,

said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other

faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 20, 2006

Are you saying that you think that they are getting paranoid? The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: I have known vegans join hunting lodges - as spies - they were hunt sabs. Jo - peter VV Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge? The Valley Vegan...................jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi Peter There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church. I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups. Jo - peter VV Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little

brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of

transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350

Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send

instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. Peter H

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November 20, 2006

Okay, I have actually read the article now, and you guys should also. What I am reading is that the CU's want to be able to say who will be able to be a governing/influencing member of their own groups. And I do believe they should have that right, shouldn't they? Should vegan groups be forced to have pharmaceutical representatives talk about the good of testing on animals, and have those people serve on their governing boards? No protesting would go on that way, for certain! Should gay rights groups be forced to have people who disagree with their lifestyle come and talk about it and vote on their policies? No.

The CU's aren't trying to deny any of the other groups the right to exist. They are simply trying to deny membership in their own society to people who disagree with their beliefs.

Come on, people. Let's be a little more tolerant.

sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:09:56 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I didnt realise, thats terrible. Will their legal action hold any water in this day and age? I wouldnt have thought so?

The Valley Vegan....... ....Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Peter

I don't think you understand.. .. it's got nothing to do with people wanting to join the Christian Unions. It's to do with the CUs wanting to stop non-Christians from having posts at the Union, and banning other religious societies.

BB

Peter

-

peter VV

@gro ups.com

Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge?

The Valley Vegan....... ......... ...jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Peter

There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church.

I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups.

Jo

-

peter VV

@gro ups.com

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

November 20, 2006

Its not just other faiths that they vehemently attack, its homosexuality, and with a vengence! Love thy neighbour. The Valley Vegan................Peter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon I have no objections to people being Christian. What I have problems with is people who think that their religion (whether that's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Paganism, or belief in the Great Spaghetti Monster) gives

them the right to prevent others from practicing theirs. It is an unfortunate fact that most of the CUs at universities are filled with people who believe just that, and hand out leaflets condemning other religions, and preventing other religious groups from using rooms, etc. It hardly seems to be in keeping with the Christian teachings of "love thy neighbour".... BB Peter On 19/11/06, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace > wrote: Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all

that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise

thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody. So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you. Peace! Sharon peter VV < swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is

confusing for my little brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a "soft target" by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations' decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting

lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students' guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers' Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: "We haven't seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out." The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain's 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme

political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle "unprecedented" in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship's head of communications, said: "The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with." Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: "We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities." The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to

university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students' union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students' union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 20, 2006

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 20, 2006

I am amazed that you think that way, as to a Brit, I see a lot of news stories about christian extremism over there, much more than over here ( I thought ). Admittedly we dont have the equivalent of the bible belt and we are a much smaller country. The Valley Vegan...............Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote: Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been

distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody. So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you. Peace! Sharon peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a

membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the

Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your

online friends http://uk.messenger . Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 20, 2006

There is no question that there are people who attack others in the name of all sorts of religions. Personally I am not one of them, and neither are any of the Christians I am associated with. The essence of Christianity to me is about a relationship with God through Christ. I don't know whether that is the source or not, but I personally feel filled to overflowing with love. And so do those other Christians I was talking about. It is not my place to judge anybody.

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:43:38 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Its not just other faiths that they vehemently attack, its homosexuality, and with a vengence!

Love thy neighbour.

The Valley Vegan....... .........Peter Kebbell <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sharon

I have no objections to people being Christian. What I have problems with is people who think that their religion (whether that's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Paganism, or belief in the Great Spaghetti Monster) gives them the right to prevent others from practicing theirs. It is an unfortunate fact that most of the CUs at universities are filled with people who believe just that, and hand out leaflets condemning other religions, and preventing other religious groups from using rooms, etc. It hardly seems to be in keeping with the Christian teachings of "love thy neighbour".. ..

BB

Peter

On 19/11/06, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ > wrote:

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or

that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV < swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a "soft target" by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations' decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students' guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers' Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: "We haven't seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out." The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain's 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle "unprecedented" in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship's head of communications, said: "The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with." Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: "We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. " The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students' union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students' union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

Peter H

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November 20, 2006

Glad to hear it. The Valley Vegan............Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote: There is no question that there are people who attack others in the name of all sorts of religions. Personally I am not one of them, and neither are any of the Christians I am associated with. The essence of

Christianity to me is about a relationship with God through Christ. I don't know whether that is the source or not, but I personally feel filled to overflowing with love. And so do those other Christians I was talking about. It is not my place to judge anybody. Sharon peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:43:38 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Its not just other faiths that they vehemently attack, its homosexuality, and with a vengence! Love thy neighbour. The Valley Vegan....... .........Peter Kebbell <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote: Hi Sharon I have no objections to people being Christian. What I have problems with is people who think that their religion (whether that's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Paganism, or belief in the Great Spaghetti Monster) gives them the right to prevent others from practicing theirs. It is an unfortunate fact that most of the CUs at universities are filled with people who believe just that, and hand out leaflets condemning other religions, and preventing other religious groups from using rooms, etc. It hardly seems to be in keeping with the Christian teachings of "love thy neighbour".. .. BB Peter On 19/11/06, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ > wrote: Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out

or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody. So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be

surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you. Peace! Sharon peter VV < swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006

12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain The Times November

18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a "soft target" by student associations

because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations' decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students' guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal

opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers' Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: "We haven't seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out." The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain's 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle "unprecedented" in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship's head of communications, said: "The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with." Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a

fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: "We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. " The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students' union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has

been told it cannot join the students' union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 20, 2006

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them."

I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial.

My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant.

I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?

I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice.

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or

that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

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History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 20, 2006

i understand where you are coming from

but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of attack..not in this country...

i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...

but..i can tell ya this...

here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens..

(now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging yer religious views/choices/life)

everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone

its on the money fer bacchus' sake....

now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a giant wave is cascading down...

you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to have them turned off

now..i can admit some folks over react

but...

imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers during ramadan...

how would you think people would react?

how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah?

and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book"

now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a festival of high fire in mongolia)

again..not trying to belittle your faith

but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being forced on me...

we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies in me throat)

and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith

but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only they are correct

and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and have the loudest voices...

cheers

fraggle

Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them."

I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial.

My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant.

I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?

I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice.

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 20, 2006

No - they were getting information on when and where the hunts were taking place. Not paranoid at all, just useful and brave.

Jo

-

peter VV

Monday, November 20, 2006 7:13 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Are you saying that you think that they are getting paranoid?

The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

I have known vegans join hunting lodges - as spies - they were hunt sabs.

Jo

-

peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge?

The Valley Vegan...................jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

Hi Peter

There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church.

I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups.

Jo

-

peter VV

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 20, 2006

Hi Sharon

Maybe the reaction has happened because of the way the CU's behaved to other groups.

Jo

-

Sharon Murch

Monday, November 20, 2006 7:40 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Okay, I have actually read the article now, and you guys should also. What I am reading is that the CU's want to be able to say who will be able to be a governing/influencing member of their own groups. And I do believe they should have that right, shouldn't they? Should vegan groups be forced to have pharmaceutical representatives talk about the good of testing on animals, and have those people serve on their governing boards? No protesting would go on that way, for certain! Should gay rights groups be forced to have people who disagree with their lifestyle come and talk about it and vote on their policies? No.

The CU's aren't trying to deny any of the other groups the right to exist. They are simply trying to deny membership in their own society to people who disagree with their beliefs.

Come on, people. Let's be a little more tolerant.

sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:09:56 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I didnt realise, thats terrible. Will their legal action hold any water in this day and age? I wouldnt have thought so?

The Valley Vegan....... ....Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Peter

I don't think you understand.. .. it's got nothing to do with people wanting to join the Christian Unions. It's to do with the CUs wanting to stop non-Christians from having posts at the Union, and banning other religious societies.

BB

Peter

-

peter VV

@gro ups.com

Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I just dont see why non christians would want to join christian clubs? Would a vegan want to join a hunting lodge?

The Valley Vegan....... ......... ...jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Peter

There are lots of gay Christians - I know several. I presume their faith in Jesus is great enough to overcome the (to my mind) un-Christian like behaviour of the church.

I don't know much about university life - Peter will be the best one to answer this, as he is in the Pagan Society. I wonder if they have really been banned by these four universities or whether they have just had their preferencial treatment taken away - as I believe Christian groups do tend to be given preferential treatment over other groups.

Jo

-

peter VV

@gro ups.com

Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:37 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a “soft target” by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students’ guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: “We haven’t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.” The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain’s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle “unprecedented” in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship’s head of communications, said: “The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.” Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: “We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities.” The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students’ union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students’ union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

Peter H

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November 20, 2006

Hi Peter

It is a little worrying actually - I've just tied this thread up with the Young Christians at Glastonbury - the ones who were nasty to the Pagans there. Is there a fundamentalist movement amongst young Christians?

Jo

-

peter VV

Monday, November 20, 2006 7:13 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does`nt sound very christian does it? more like a small minded petty childish group. What sort of advert are they for their religion.....? I wonder what their church proper would think of this?

The Valley Vegan..............Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

There's more to this that what the article says....

"The dispute follows the associations’ decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges.

Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting

homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality."

I only know about Edinburgh, out of those mentioned, but up there, the CU was handing out material which was libellous to other religions (I happen to know some of the Pagan Society there, and some of the stuff said about Paganism could have come from the Malleum Malleficarum.) I didn't know that they had been sanctioned by the University, but it's about time they were, as they do indeed promote religious hatred and homophobia - not just within their society, but across the whole university. Bristol CU were alsoo threatened with action: in the past 4 years, they've on several occassions attempted to book every room in the union building and chaplaincy at the times of other religion's major festivals, and have twice put motions to the Union AGM that all other religious societies should be banned from Union property. It's about time someone did something about these fundamentalist groups, and I'm delighted that someone finally has.

BB

Peter

Peter H

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