Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

November 21, 2006

All Hallows eve isn't recognized here very much as a religious holiday..all we get is Halloween...thats all people see..

so halloween is no longer seen as a grafted on x-tian holiday at all

it is seen as evil

and its devil worshipping

and all that

Peter Kebbell Nov 21, 2006 10:24 AM Re: Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Fraggle

>has had an issue for quite awhile....

OK - I have to admit, I don't get it. It would be like me suddenly deciding that I didn't like the summer solstice any more....

BB

Peter

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 21, 2006

Yes, Peter, I agree with you ... especially that Douglas Adams quote at the end. I've always said there is nobody to vote for for president because there is by definition something wrong with anybody who WANTS to be president. Agree on all other counts as well. We see this more with Christianity because it has been our "cultural religion." But yes, the same is true with any religion that becomes a cultural norm. Westerners may become Buddhists or embrace a Hindu religion and there seems to be a kind of religious purity to it, until you see its impure commonality in the country of its origin. Like you said, I think it is because people identify themselves as being that religion when in matter of fact they have never really personally and spiritually embraced it. I'm guessing you don't have that problem much with your religion, huh? What do you mean by paganism,

exactly? Is that the same as Wicca? sharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon >I think that "Christian" is a term that is so overly broad anymore, it is hard to know just what > you are talking about. I think the problem is that people often think of themselves as Christian (and thereby claim to do things in the name of Christianity) when they really don't act as Christians

should. I mean, just look at George Bush! This isn't in any way restricted to Christianity - I've seen the same things in Islam, Hindu and Paganism, it's just a bit more obvious with the "use" of Christianity in this way, as the majority of our political and business leaders come from a Christian background... > It is a religion that in the last 2000 years has been politicized and > culturized to the point where the real essence of it is lost. I don't know that this is true, but in > a country that has its own official church, the Church of England, perhaps that is even more > true, with some people confusing their patriotism and their religion. Or do they still have the > Church of England? We do still have the C of E. I think it's both an advantage and a disadvantage. We don't have seperation of

church and state like is meant to be the case in the US (Our head of state is still the head of the Church of England, albeit that she is effectively a figure-head who tends not to weild any genuine power). In some ways that's a disadvantage, because it means that, for instance, schools still have to have a Christian prayer in every assembly, and therefore parents from other religions have to bite their lips, or have their children taken out of assembly, which makes them stand-out. The advantage is, that at least it is clear that we live in a country where the church has some influence in the way the country is run... although the US is supposed to have seperation of church and state, in reality, this doesn't seem to always be the case, but because it's meant to be that way, open discussion of the pros and cons can often get stifled. >And sadly, a lot of that religion that has developed over the last 2000 years does nothing but > put a church and its representatives as intermediaries between God and man, so man ends > up developing a realtionship with the church instead of a relationship with God. Couldn't agree more. I think it's always sad when people don't feel the ability to connect with the divine for themselves (in whatever way they experience the divine), and certainly some historical aspects of the way the church has been run has encouraged that seperation. Of course, the same is true for many other religions as well... it comes back to the Douglas Adams concept: if someone wants to have power, they should under no circumstances be allowed to have any... BB Peter

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November 21, 2006

We don't actually have a separation of church and state. That phrase appears nowhere in the constitution. What we have is an amendment that say, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or free exercise thereof." That's it. Plain and simple. Congress can't tell you what religion you have to belong to, and it can't prevent you from practicing whatever religion you choose to practice. sharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote: Hi Sharon >Well actually, Peter, it is in all capital letters: IN GOD WE TRUST. Fair enough - not being American, I don't look at the currency a lot :-) However, it is still "god" in the singular - so only works for monotheistic religions, and for male deities, which of course brings in the whole issue of gender and patriachal concepts... >People do not need to be offended by the word GOD. Although there is room for > understanding that within my experience also. There was a time I could not say the word > "God." If I had to refer to it, I called it "the G word." I'm not at all offended by the word "god", I just find it rather odd that it appears on the

currency, and in the national oath, of a nation which is supposed to have seperation of religion and state.... BB Peter

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November 21, 2006

hi peter,

I don't understand it myself,

my guess is that halloween would be like glorifiying evil.

I was surprised about this culture in florida too, because

when I was a kid growing up in nyc,

we dressed up however we liked on halloween.

something funny

ok,

I read in the newspaper that Child abusers and Predators are not

allowed to

turn on their Front Lights of their house. (so that children won't

knock on their door.)

so from then on, in my neighborhood, I looked suspiciosly at any

house without any lights on that night.

Then I realized that some people just don't celebrate halloween.

, " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:

>

> Hi Anouk

>

> >but one example that they rule is,

> >for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home

> >and said that his school is calling Halloween " Dress Up Day "

>

> OK... so Christianity now has a problem with the celebration of " All

Saints

> Eve " (which is what " HallowE'en " means)???!!!!????

>

> BB

> Peter

>

November 21, 2006

The source of most wars I believe is either religion or greed. Neither are any good in my humble opinion. The Valley Vegan...........heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi AnoukWe have been shouted at and told we are going to hell. Our spirituality has been extremely badly treated by Christianity and probably Islam as well. Lots of Pagans, particularly in America, are still too frightened to come out, and have to hide their beliefs because too many

Christians are not kind or tolerant.BBJo , "flower child" <zurumato wrote:>> hi Sharon,> > in my town, Christians rule,I think that Christmas lights are very> pretty and my children get Christmas gifts. > > but one example that they rule is, > for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home> and said that his school is calling Halloween "Dress Up Day"> > A bunch of Parents in his school signed a petition saying that> Halloween is Devil Worship. > It was the first time that my son learned about "The Devil"> > I have never mentioned the devil to my kid, as I see no reason why. > > We had a hard time trying to get a costume for him becuase I got a> note from his school saying that costumes Could NOT be

scary. > > They requested that children must dress up as book characters. > but "harry Potter" was considered scary, since none of the children > in his class read this book. This is a public school. > > I respect Christians, because I respect a persons private> spirituality. My aunts are roman catholic and my F-I-L is a born again. > but I feel that (at least in my town) they are the majority. > > and sometimes I feel that when someone says "I don't believe in God"> that they are percieved by others as evil. > > in reality some atheist are very kind and compassionate. > > -anouk > > , Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@>> wrote:> >> > See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust"> has been on the money

for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually> people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in> point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a> particular religion. > > > > As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself,> for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly> personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can> see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other> things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our> "diversity."> > > > Sharon> > > > > > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@> wrote:> > i understand where you are coming from> > but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of> attack..not in this country...> > i can't comment on the article, as have little

inclination on the> how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...> > > >>Peter H

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November 21, 2006

hi fraggle,

those were the exact words out of my eight

year olds mouth.

he said that kids at school said that halloween is

Devil Worshipping.

I see halloween as something fun or trivial,

but the majority of parents at his school

see it as more serious than that.

November 21, 2006

Soem people don't trust in any gods because they don't believe in them. What has god/s got to do with money anyway?

Jo

-

Sharon Murch

Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:26 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a particular religion.

As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself, for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our "diversity."

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i understand where you are coming from

but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of attack..not in this country...

i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...

but..i can tell ya this...

here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens..

(now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging yer religious views/choices/life)

everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone

its on the money fer bacchus' sake....

now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a giant wave is cascading down...

you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to have them turned off

now..i can admit some folks over react

but...

imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers during ramadan...

how would you think people would react?

how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah?

and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book"

now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a festival of high fire in mongolia)

again..not trying to belittle your faith

but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being forced on me...

we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies in me throat)

and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith

but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only they are correct

and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and have the loudest voices...

cheers

fraggle

Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them."

I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial.

My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant.

I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?

I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice.

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

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November 21, 2006

Hi Peter

That is really sad.

BBJo

-

Peter Kebbell

Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:54 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Sharon

>There is no question that there are people who attack others in the name of all sorts of

> religions. Personally I am not one of them, and neither are any of the Christians I am

> associated with. The essence of Christianity to me is about a relationship with God through

> Christ. I don't know whether that is the source or not, but I personally feel filled to

> overflowing with love. And so do those other Christians I was talking about. It is not my

> place to judge anybody.

And I have to say, this is true for the vast majority of Christians I know. However, most Christians who feel like that also feel alienated from the University Christian Unions because the CUs do not generally practice their Christianity in that way. The Bristol Uni CU has about 200 members - I know about 20 Christians at Uni, none of them are members of the CU, because if they were, they would be encouraged to avoid anyone with different religions.

BB

Peter

November 21, 2006

Hi Peter

Has the situation improved in Bristol university?

BBJo

-

Peter Kebbell

Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:50 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Hi Sharon

>Okay, I have actually read the article now, and you guys should also. What I am reading is that the CU's want

> to be able to say who will be able to be a governing/influencing member of their own groups. And I do believe

>they should have that right, shouldn't they? Should vegan groups be forced to have pharmaceutical

> representatives talk about the good of testing on animals, and have those people serve on their governing

> boards? No protesting would go on that way, for certain! Should gay rights groups be forced to have people

> who disagree with their lifestyle come and talk about it and vote on their policies? No.

That is indeed what the article says. However, the article is not written from an objective point of view, and has completely ignored the real reasons why these CUs have been banned. I am a student at Bristol University, and have direct experience of the CU here. I am also a member of the University Pagan Network, and have spoken to people in other universities about their experiences with the CUs. Edinburgh is one of the Universities which is involved in the University Pagan Network, and I have spoken to people there about how the CU actively campaigns against the existence of non-Christian religious groups, as they do at Bristol, and other universities. I am talking here from direct experience - I attended the Bristol University AGM 2 years ago, where the Christian Union put forward a motion that all non-Christian societies be banned from affiliation to the Union, and use of the Union and Chaplaincy buildings. This is not second hand knowledge from a biased newspaper report, this is actual first hand experience.

>The CU's aren't trying to deny any of the other groups the right to exist.

Yes they are. Just because the newspaper hasn't reported it, doesn't mean that this is not the case.

>Come on, people. Let's be a little more tolerant.

I absolutely agree - let's have some tolerance for those of us who don't belong to the majority religion in this country.

BB

Peter

November 21, 2006

in the name of god they asked you to die

religious wars there's no reason why...

peter VV Nov 21, 2006 11:35 AM Re: Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

The source of most wars I believe is either religion or greed. Neither are any good in my humble opinion.

The Valley Vegan...........heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

Hi AnoukWe have been shouted at and told we are going to hell. Our spirituality has been extremely badly treated by Christianity and probably Islam as well. Lots of Pagans, particularly in America, are still too frightened to come out, and have to hide their beliefs because too many Christians are not kind or tolerant.BBJo , "flower child" <zurumato wrote:>> hi Sharon,> > in my town, Christians rule,I think that Christmas lights are very> pretty and my children get Christmas gifts. > > but one example that they rule is, > for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home> and said that his school is calling Halloween "Dress Up Day"> > A bunch of Parents in his school signed a petition saying that> Halloween is Devil Worship. > It was the first time that my son learned about "The Devil"> > I have never mentioned the devil to my kid, as I see no reason why. > > We had a hard time trying to get a costume for him becuase I got a> note from his school saying that costumes Could NOT be scary. > > They requested that children must dress up as book characters. > but "harry Potter" was considered scary, since none of the children > in his class read this book. This is a public school. > > I respect Christians, because I respect a persons private> spirituality. My aunts are roman catholic and my F-I-L is a born again. > but I feel that (at least in my town) they are the majority. > > and sometimes I feel that when someone says "I don't believe in God"> that they are percieved by others as evil. > > in reality some atheist are very kind and compassionate. > > -anouk > > , Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@>> wrote:> >> > See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust"> has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually> people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in> point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a> particular religion. > > > > As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself,> for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly> personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can> see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other> things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our> "diversity."> > > > Sharon> > > > > > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@> wrote:> > i understand where you are coming from> > but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of> attack..not in this country...> > i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the> how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...> > > >>

Peter H

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History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 21, 2006

Hi Sharon

I so agree with your last paragraph. An intermediary is not necessary, and the church takes away peoples own power.

Jo

-

Shhhhh

Tuesday, November 21, 2006 5:08 PM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

I think that "Christian" is a term that is so overly broad anymore, it is hard to know just what you are talking about. It is a religion that in the last 2000 years has been politicized and culturized to the point where the real essence of it is lost. I don't know that this is true, but in a country that has its own official church, the Church of England, perhaps that is even more true, with some people confusing their patriotism and their religion. Or do they still have the Church of England?

And sadly, a lot of that religion that has developed over the last 2000 years does nothing but put a church and its representatives as intermediaries between God and man, so man ends up developing a realtionship with the church instead of a relationship with God.

SharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Sharon

>There is no question that there are people who attack others in the name of all sorts of

> religions. Personally I am not one of them, and neither are any of the Christians I am

> associated with. The essence of Christianity to me is about a relationship with God through

> Christ. I don't know whether that is the source or not, but I personally feel filled to

> overflowing with love. And so do those other Christians I was talking about. It is not my

> place to judge anybody.

And I have to say, this is true for the vast majority of Christians I know. However, most Christians who feel like that also feel alienated from the University Christian Unions because the CUs do not generally practice their Christianity in that way. The Bristol Uni CU has about 200 members - I know about 20 Christians at Uni, none of them are members of the CU, because if they were, they would be encouraged to avoid anyone with different religions.

BB

Peter

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November 21, 2006

ah, you're a poet, fraggle. fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: in the name of god they asked you to die religious wars there's no reason why... peter VV Nov 21, 2006 11:35 AM Re: Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

The source of most wars I believe is either religion or greed. Neither are any good in my humble opinion. The Valley Vegan...........heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi AnoukWe have been shouted at and told we are going to hell. Our spirituality has been extremely badly treated by Christianity and probably Islam as well. Lots of Pagans, particularly in America, are still too frightened to come out, and have to hide their beliefs because too many Christians are not kind or tolerant.BBJo , "flower child" <zurumato wrote:>> hi Sharon,> > in my town, Christians rule,I think that Christmas

lights are very> pretty and my children get Christmas gifts. > > but one example that they rule is, > for halloween my son was not allowed to say Halloween. He came home> and said that his school is calling Halloween "Dress Up Day"> > A bunch of Parents in his school signed a petition saying that> Halloween is Devil Worship. > It was the first time that my son learned about "The Devil"> > I have never mentioned the devil to my kid, as I see no reason why. > > We had a hard time trying to get a costume for him becuase I got a> note from his school saying that costumes Could NOT be scary. > > They requested that children must dress up as book characters. > but "harry Potter" was considered scary, since none of the children > in his class read this book. This is a public school. > > I respect Christians, because I respect a persons

private> spirituality. My aunts are roman catholic and my F-I-L is a born again. > but I feel that (at least in my town) they are the majority. > > and sometimes I feel that when someone says "I don't believe in God"> that they are percieved by others as evil. > > in reality some atheist are very kind and compassionate. > > -anouk > > , Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@>> wrote:> >> > See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust"> has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually> people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in> point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a> particular religion. > > > > As for the Christmas carols ... well,

I can't stand them myself,> for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly> personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can> see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other> things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our> "diversity."> > > > Sharon> > > > > > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@> wrote:> > i understand where you are coming from> > but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of> attack..not in this country...> > i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the> how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...> > > >> Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

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November 21, 2006

"... or the free exercise thereof." Making no law regarding the establishment of religion is a far cry from prohibiting public entities any religious expression. sharon fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: sorry, i have to disagree it does say it there plain and simple Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion congress can not make a stae religion.... thats what the first amendment is saying and, amendments are part of the constitution... Jefferson was a big backer of the early amendments, and he wrote extensively on the seperation not only of chucrh and state, but also on the seperation of the powers of the government Shhhhh Nov 21, 2006 11:07 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges We don't actually have a separation of church and state. That phrase appears nowhere in the constitution. What we have is an amendment that say, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or free exercise thereof." That's it. Plain and simple. Congress can't tell you what religion you have to belong to, and it can't prevent you from practicing whatever religion you choose to practice. sharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Sharon >Well actually, Peter, it is in all capital letters: IN GOD WE TRUST. Fair enough - not being American, I don't look at the currency a lot :-) However, it is still "god" in the singular - so only works for monotheistic religions, and for male deities, which of course brings in the whole issue of gender and patriachal concepts... >People do not need to be offended by the word GOD. Although there is room for > understanding that within my experience also. There was a time I could not say the word > "God." If I had to refer to it, I called it "the G word." I'm not at all offended by the word "god", I just find it rather odd that it appears on the currency, and in the national oath, of a nation which is supposed to have seperation of religion and state.... BB Peter Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

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November 21, 2006

Hi Sharon, If you dont mind me asking, what brand of christianity are you subscribing to? COE , Presbytarian, 7DA, RC? Do you believe the old testament? Just wondered. Me I believe in what I can see, hear, and touch and smell. I have a strange ( possibly misguided ) faith in human nature. I was made to go to chapel every sunday when I was baby until my teens, when I was old enough to decide for myself. I just formed an opinion that there may well be an omnipotent one, but it may not be what some people call god,jehova,buddha, a positive spirit or whatever. The Valley Vegan...........Peter H

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November 21, 2006

RC church I believe was one of the richest institutions on the planet at one time, maybe the question should go to the pope... The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Soem people don't trust in any gods because they don't believe in them. What has god/s got to do with money anyway? Jo - Sharon Murch Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:26 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a particular religion. As

for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself, for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our "diversity." Sharon fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> wrote: i understand where you are coming from but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of attack..not in this country... i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK... but..i can tell ya this... here..look at the world

thru a non-x-tian lens.. (now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging yer religious views/choices/life) everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone its on the money fer bacchus' sake.... now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a giant wave is cascading down... you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to have them turned off now..i can admit some folks over react but... imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers during ramadan... how would you think people would react? how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah? and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book" now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high fire week er wotever(i made that

up...no idea if this is a festival of high fire in mongolia) again..not trying to belittle your faith but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being forced on me... we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies in me throat) and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only they are correct and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and have the loudest voices... cheers fraggle Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them." I

know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial. My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant. I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I? I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice. Sharon fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges hey sharon so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack? coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over

Christian rights at colleges Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise

thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody. So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you. Peace! Sharon peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are

such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham

universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by

why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow

non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment Peter H

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November 21, 2006

Everything -- How is it that God can be heavily involved in politics but doesn't have to pay taxes? You wanna put your two cents in and combine politics with religion then pay up....At least that's what I've heard. -jo Tuesday, November 21, 2006 4:13 pmRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges > Soem people don't trust in any gods because they don't believe > in them. What has god/s got to do with money anyway?> > Jo> - > Sharon Murch > > Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:26 AM> Re: Students sue over Christian rights > at colleges> > > See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We > Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there > are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an > attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not > even associated with a particular religion. > > As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them > myself, for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be > a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other > people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had > been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP > would have applauded our "diversity."> > Sharon> > > fraggle wrote:> i understand where you are coming from> but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort > of attack..not in this country...> i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination > on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...> > but..i can tell ya this...> here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens..> (now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging > yer religious views/choices/life)> everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone> its on the money fer bacchus' sake....> now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a > giant wave is cascading down...> > you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to > have them turned off> now..i can admit some folks over react> but...> imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers > during ramadan...> how would you think people would react?> how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah?> and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book"> now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian > shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high > fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a > festival of high fire in mongolia)> > again..not trying to belittle your faith> but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being > forced on me...> > we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies > in me throat)> and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith> > but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only > they are correct> and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and > have the loudest voices...> cheers> fraggle> > > > > > Sharon Murch > Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM > > Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges > > > Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the > interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an > attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to > have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and > animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular > cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the > last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last > generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San > Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with > them." > > I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The > gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of > gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with > all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that > I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the > case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love > and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be > prejudicial.> My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding > this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the > details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in > fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant. > > I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have > got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let > others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you > want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing > my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a > friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of > telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was > my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?> > I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel > subject to prejudice.> > Sharon> > > > fraggle > > Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AM> Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges> > > hey sharon> so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?> coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under > attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of > christianity> > > > Sharon Murch > Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM > @gro ups.com > Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges > > > Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really > commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all > that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I > can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians > being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out > making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, > like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but > rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like > Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith > or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an > amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no > law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the > free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot > go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, > or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been > distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if > you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free > exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put > on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately > rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.> > So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if > it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal > and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be > liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with > you. > > Peace!> Sharon> > > > peter VV > @gro ups.com> Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AM> Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges> > > Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the > point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is > that they are being forced to let non christians sit on > christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in > the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay > christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what > their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the > commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is > confusing for my little brain> > The Times November 18, 2006 > > > Students sue over Christian rights at colleges> By David Lister and Ruth Gledhill> > > > Follow the exploits of four university > freshers in their blog > > > CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are > preparing to take legal action against university authorities, > accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, > The Times has learnt. > Christian unions claim that they are being > singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because > they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or > sit on ruling committees. > The dispute follows the associations? > decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official > lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or > privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and > Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being > accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and > even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. > Two Christian unions announced yesterday > that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the > Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist > extremism on campus. > At Exeter University the Christian union > issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the > students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal > action. It was suspended from the list of official societies > last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. > Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the > Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal > advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of > legal action. > She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this > sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are > puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? > The Universities and Colleges Christian > Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian > unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused > student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said > that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their > 83-year history. > Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of > communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being > used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in > fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree > with.? > Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a > fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of > its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian > unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more > situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong > Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after > refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to > address meetings and to amend its literature to include > references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender > sexuality. > In Exeter, the Christian union had > privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms > and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of > beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of > the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after > protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been > banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after > complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, > Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? > union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-> Christians and those of other faiths. > > > > > > Peter H > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger . > > > > > History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher> > > > > History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher> > > > > --------------------------------> -------------> Sponsored Link> > Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - > Calculate new house payment >

November 21, 2006

allowing public support from a governemnt official, site, program for a religion is tacit approval

why have a manger scene on the lawn of a state capitol if you are not also going to allow an islamic mineret?

how about a minorah in the windows of a courthouse?

and a giant pentagram on the steps of congress....?

Shhhhh Nov 21, 2006 3:37 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

"... or the free exercise thereof."

Making no law regarding the establishment of religion is a far cry from prohibiting public entities any religious expression.

sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

sorry, i have to disagree

it does say it there plain and simple

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

congress can not make a stae religion....

thats what the first amendment is saying

and, amendments are part of the constitution...

Jefferson was a big backer of the early amendments, and he wrote extensively on the seperation not only of chucrh and state, but also on the seperation of the powers of the government

Shhhhh Nov 21, 2006 11:07 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

We don't actually have a separation of church and state. That phrase appears nowhere in the constitution. What we have is an amendment that say, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or free exercise thereof."

That's it. Plain and simple.

Congress can't tell you what religion you have to belong to, and it can't prevent you from practicing whatever religion you choose to practice.

sharonPeter Kebbell <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Sharon

>Well actually, Peter, it is in all capital letters: IN GOD WE TRUST.

Fair enough - not being American, I don't look at the currency a lot :-)

However, it is still "god" in the singular - so only works for monotheistic religions, and for male deities, which of course brings in the whole issue of gender and patriachal concepts...

>People do not need to be offended by the word GOD. Although there is room for

> understanding that within my experience also. There was a time I could not say the word

> "God." If I had to refer to it, I called it "the G word."

I'm not at all offended by the word "god", I just find it rather odd that it appears on the currency, and in the national oath, of a nation which is supposed to have seperation of religion and state....

BB

Peter

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near historic lows: $150,000 loan as low as $579/mo. Intro-*Terms History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 21, 2006

sadly here, too dang much...

just spend 20 seconds watching any televangelist

who would have thought god would need so much cash....

jo Nov 21, 2006 2:57 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Soem people don't trust in any gods because they don't believe in them. What has god/s got to do with money anyway?

Jo

-

Sharon Murch

Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:26 AM

Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a particular religion.

As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself, for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our "diversity."

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i understand where you are coming from

but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of attack..not in this country...

i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...

but..i can tell ya this...

here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens..

(now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging yer religious views/choices/life)

everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone

its on the money fer bacchus' sake....

now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a giant wave is cascading down...

you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to have them turned off

now..i can admit some folks over react

but...

imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers during ramadan...

how would you think people would react?

how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah?

and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book"

now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a festival of high fire in mongolia)

again..not trying to belittle your faith

but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being forced on me...

we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies in me throat)

and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith

but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only they are correct

and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and have the loudest voices...

cheers

fraggle

Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them."

I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be prejudicial.

My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant.

I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?

I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice.

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

hey sharon

so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?

coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity

Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.

So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you.

Peace!

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges

Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain

The Times

November 18, 2006

Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill

Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog

CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

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November 21, 2006

Hi Peter. Hmmm, I rather hate to be branded. The church I currently attend is Faith Fellowship in San Leandro, CA, a member of the Foursquare denomination. I was not raised in a religious home of any sort. Perhaps because of that, I have always been a spiritual seeker. Been down a lot of paths. I'm fifty years old so I've had a lot of time for wandering. For a large part of my life I had "my own religion." By that I basically mean I decided how things would be if I was God, what I figured made sense or was "right." I think that was really pretty audacious of me, basically creating God in my own image! That's not really all that unusual, though. Even my 15-year old does it. peace, sharonpeter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Hi Sharon, If you dont mind me asking, what brand of christianity are you subscribing to? COE , Presbytarian, 7DA, RC? Do you believe the old testament? Just wondered. Me I believe in what I can see, hear, and touch and smell. I have a strange ( possibly misguided ) faith in human nature. I was made to go to chapel every sunday when I was baby until my teens, when I was old enough to decide for myself. I just formed an opinion that there may well be an omnipotent one, but it may not be what some people call god,jehova,buddha, a positive spirit or whatever. The Valley Vegan........... Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

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November 21, 2006

Jo, I would guess that placing "in god we trust" in the money invokes God's blessing on the finances of the country. I certainly would like God to bless my money. I think he needs to make it a little bit BIGGER so it will quit slipping through the HOLES! hehe peace, sharonpeter VV <swpgh01 wrote: RC church I believe was one of the richest institutions on the planet at one time, maybe the question should go to

the pope... The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Soem people don't trust in any gods because they don't believe in them. What has god/s got to do with money anyway? Jo - Sharon Murch Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:26 AM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not even associated with a particular religion. As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them myself, for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP would have applauded our "diversity." Sharon fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> wrote: i understand where you are coming from but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort of attack..not in this country... i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK... but..i can tell ya this... here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens.. (now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging yer religious views/choices/life) everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone its on the money fer bacchus' sake.... now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a giant wave is cascading down... you mentioned something

about x-mas carols..and having to have them turned off now..i can admit some folks over react but... imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers during ramadan... how would you think people would react? how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah? and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book" now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a festival of high fire in mongolia) again..not trying to belittle your faith but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being forced on me... we are suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies in me throat) and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only they are correct and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and have the loudest voices... cheers fraggle Sharon Murch Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and

animal rights activists. See, I just can't find a popular cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with them." I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be

prejudicial. My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant. I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a friend of mine. If

God is real, then he is certainly capable of telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I? I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel subject to prejudice. Sharon fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AMRe: Students sue over

Christian rights at colleges hey sharon so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack? coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of christianity Sharon Murch Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM @gro ups.com Re: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians being

eroded in this country. The ACLU, for example, is not out making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put on some Christmas carols, and an assistant principal immediately rushed out and

turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody. So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with you. Peace! Sharon peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT)

com>@gro ups.comSunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AMRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is that they are being forced to let non christians sit on christian commitees? why would non christians be interested in the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is confusing for my little brain The Times November 18, 2006 Students sue over Christian rights at collegesBy David Lister and Ruth Gledhill Follow the exploits of four university freshers in their blog CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are preparing to take legal action against university

authorities, accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, The Times has learnt. Christian unions claim that they are being singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because they refuse to allow non-Christians to address their meetings or sit on ruling committees. The dispute follows the associations? decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. Two Christian unions announced yesterday that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist extremism on campus. At Exeter University the Christian union issued a statement on Thursday

stating that it has given the students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal action. It was suspended from the list of official societies last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of legal action. She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their 83-year history. Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of communications, said: ?The politically

correct agenda is being used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree with.? Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to address meetings and to amend its literature to include references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender sexuality. In Exeter, the Christian union had privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms and funding, after the guild deemed its core statement of beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after

protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-Christians and those of other faiths. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and

each time the price gets higher History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Sponsored LinkMortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - Calculate new house payment Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

Sponsored Link$200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home equity - Click now for info

November 21, 2006

Animal rights organizations are tax-exempt also. Do you think they should not be able to have a voice in politics? peace, sharonshyswtie28 wrote: Everything -- How is it that God can be heavily involved in politics but doesn't have to pay taxes? You wanna put your two cents in and combine politics with religion then pay up....At least that's what I've heard. -jo Tuesday, November

21, 2006 4:13 pmRe: Students sue over Christian rights at colleges > Soem people don't trust in any gods because they don't believe > in them. What has god/s got to do with money anyway?> > Jo> - > Sharon Murch > > Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:26 AM> Re: Students sue over Christian rights > at colleges> > > See, that's exactly the kind of thing I mean ... "In God We > Trust" has been on the money for 200 years, but suddenly there > are actually people bringing lawsuits over it. Yes, that is an > attack. And in point of fact, God is a title, not a name, not > even associated with a particular religion. > > As for the Christmas carols ... well, I can't stand them > myself,

for totally other reasons. In fact, I find music to be > a highly personal thing that shouldn't be forced on other > people. But I can see your point. On the other hand, if it had > been one of those other things being played, I'll bet that AP > would have applauded our "diversity."> > Sharon> > > fraggle wrote:> i understand where you are coming from> but fer me, i don't think x-tianity is coming under any sort > of attack..not in this country...> i can't comment on the article, as have little inclination > on the how's and why's on Uni life in the UK...> > but..i can tell ya this...> here..look at the world thru a non-x-tian lens..> (now, i am in no way shape er form putting down er judging > yer religious views/choices/life)> everywhere one goes..everything one does..has a religious overtone> its on the money

fer bacchus' sake....> now that the "holidays" are fast approaching, its like a > giant wave is cascading down...> > you mentioned something about x-mas carols..and having to > have them turned off> now..i can admit some folks over react> but...> imagine if someone played the call to prayer over speakers > during ramadan...> how would you think people would react?> how about some hebrew blessing over Channukah?> and those are two religions that are from "the people of the book"> now imagine if someone insisted on some mongolian > shamanistic ritual song be played over the intercom during high > fire week er wotever(i made that up...no idea if this is a > festival of high fire in mongolia)> > again..not trying to belittle your faith> but...i can't go anywhere without x-tianity seemingly being > forced on me...> > we are

suppose to be a tolerant(excuse me as the laugh dies > in me throat)> and i applaud your view on your religion and your faith> > but, too many others view theirs as the only way..and only > they are correct> and many of them do hold the power, do hold the money, and > have the loudest voices...> cheers> fraggle> > > > > > Sharon Murch > Nov 20, 2006 3:46 PM > > Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges > > > Well ... as a nonpersonal example, I think that the > interpretation of the article in question feels kind of like an > attack. I do feel rather like everyone in the world gets to > have civil liberties these days, except for Christians ... and > animal rights activists. See, I just

can't find a popular > cause. Believe me, Christianity is not popular. Maybe in the > last generation it was, but we aren't living in the last > generation. A comedian at SF State put it this way: "San > Francisco is a very liberal city ... as long as you agree with > them." > > I know there are a lot of sticky issues out there. The > gay/lesbian thing is probably the stickiest one. I know lots of > gays/lesbians, and among them are people I love and respect with > all my heart. They presuppose that because of my religion that > I am going to think differently about them, but that isn't the > case. I personally find the expectation that I will not love > and respect people who are gay/lesbian because of my faith to be > prejudicial.> My son's girlfriend wrote something on myspace regarding > this in a conversation with a gay friend. I can't remember the >

details, but he was accusing her of being intolerant, when in > fact he was the one who was being judgmental and intolerant. > > I know, it's confusing, but the bottom line is people have > got to have LOVE for one another, and TOLERANCE, meaning let > others believe what they want, including the Christians. If you > want to talk about evangelism ... well, it's not about forcing > my beliefs on anyone else. It's about introducing you to a > friend of mine. If God is real, then he is certainly capable of > telling each person what he wants of them. If I believed it was > my place to do that, I'd be making myself into God, wouldn't I?> > I suppose rather than feeling subject to attack, I feel > subject to prejudice.> > Sharon> > > > fraggle > > Sent:

Monday, November 20, 2006 11:55:00 AM> Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges> > > hey sharon> so, if i may ask, how do you feel "assualted" or under attack?> coming from the other side, i feel CONSTANTLY under > attack, and this time of year its like drowning in a sea of > christianity> > > > Sharon Murch > Nov 19, 2006 3:45 PM > @gro ups.com > Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges > > > Didn't read the whole article, so I'm not really > commenting on it, but I suppose it's time to confess to you all > that I am actually one of those Christians. The only comment I > can make on it is that I do see civil liberties of Christians > being eroded in this country. The ACLU, for

example, is not out > making sure that we all have the right to speak out (you know, > like the animal rights activists targeted in the AETA), but > rather more concerned with making sure that certain groups, like > Christians, cannot speak out or display symbols of their faith > or whatever. I work in a public high school. Now we have an > amendment to our constitution that says, "Congress shall make no > law regarding the establishment of religion or prohibiting the > free exercise thereof." What that means is that Congress cannot > go around passing laws saying you have to be a certain religion, > or that you cannot be a certain religion. But that has been > distorted vastly by those who want to make it seem as though if > you are in any public arena you have to give up your "free > exercise thereof" rights. In my office last year somebody put > on some Christmas carols,

and an assistant principal immediately > rushed out and turned them off so as not to "offend" anybody.> > So it's a problem here, and I wouldn't be surprise if > it's a problem elsewhere. This is the thing with being liberal > and tolerant ... you have got to remember that means to be > liberal and tolerant of people who don't happen to agree with > you. > > Peace!> Sharon> > > > peter VV > @gro ups.com> Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:37:27 AM> Re: Students sue over Christian > rights at colleges> > > Does this make any sense to anyone or am I missing the > point here? Their main grievance ( as far as I can see it ) is > that they are being forced to let non christians sit on > christian commitees? why would non christians

be interested in > the first place? I can understand the gay issue, that gay > christians ( I assume there are such peple ? - hard to tell what > their bible condones these days) should be allowed on the > commitees, so why should they be upset by that? This is > confusing for my little brain> > The Times November 18, 2006 > > > Students sue over Christian rights at colleges> By David Lister and Ruth Gledhill> > > > Follow the exploits of four university > freshers in their blog > > > CHRISTIANS on campuses across Britain are > preparing to take legal action against university authorities, > accusing them of driving their religious beliefs underground, > The Times has learnt. > Christian unions claim that they are being > singled out as a ?soft target? by student associations because > they refuse to

allow non-Christians to address their meetings or > sit on ruling committees. > The dispute follows the associations? > decisions at four universities to ban the unions from official > lists of societies or deny them access to facilities or > privileges. Christian unions at Edinburgh, Heriot-Watt and > Birmingham universities are all taking legal advice after being > accused of excluding non-Christians, promoting homophobia and > even discriminating against those of transgender sexuality. > Two Christian unions announced yesterday > that they were consulting lawyers, at the same time as the > Government announced measures to tackle the threat of Islamist > extremism on campus. > At Exeter University the Christian union > issued a statement on Thursday stating that it has given the > students? guild 14 days to reinstate it in full or face legal > action. It was

suspended from the list of official societies > last month for allegedly breaching rules on equal opportunities. > Andrea Minichiello Williams, public policy officer for the > Lawyers? Christian Fellowship, which has offered informal legal > advice to the students, predicted that there would be a wave of > legal action. > She said: ?We haven?t seen examples of this > sort of discrimination against any other groups and we are > puzzled by why Christian unions seem to be being singled out.? > The Universities and Colleges Christian > Fellowship, the umbrella group for Britain?s 350 Christian > unions with a membership of up to 20,000 students, accused > student authorities of extreme political correctness. It said > that Christian unions faced a struggle ?unprecedented? in their > 83-year history. > Pod Bhogal, the fellowship?s head of > communications, said: ?The

politically correct agenda is being > used to shut people up under the guise of tolerance when, in > fact, you tolerate anything other than the thing you disagree > with.? > Amid calls for the fellowship to set up a > fighting fund to contest legal actions, Emma Brewster, one of > its 60 paid staff workers who act as mentors to Christian > unions, said: ?We believe that we are going to see more > situations like this in our universities. ? The 150-strong > Christian union in Birmingham was suspended this year after > refusing to alter its constitution to allow non-Christians to > address meetings and to amend its literature to include > references to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and those of transgender > sexuality. > In Exeter, the Christian union had > privileges suspended, including free access to university rooms > and funding, after the guild deemed its core

statement of > beliefs too exclusive. At Edinburgh University, where copies of > the Bible were banned from halls of residence last year after > protests from the students? union, the Christian union has been > banned from teaching a course about sex and relationships after > complaints that it promoted homophobia. At Heriot-Watt, > Edinburgh, the union has been told it cannot join the students? > union because its core beliefs discriminate against non-> Christians and those of other faiths. > > > > > > Peter H > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger . > > > > > History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher> > > > > History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher> > > > >

--------------------------------> -------------> Sponsored Link> > Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $310,000 Mortgage for $999/mo - > Calculate new house payment >

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