Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Hi, You might say I developed a mental allergy to it. I think it fair to say that becoming vegan involves a kind of mental conversion, so that what applied to you the day before is altered. After all, the day before becoming vegan I thought it was fine to eat eggs, and the day before becoming vegetarian thought it fine to eat meat. So to return to the shoe issue, the day before I was a vegan I thought it acceptable to wear leather (being 'only' a by-product of slaughter), the day after I thought it unacceptable. Therefore it was harming me - if you can apply harm to a moral feeling - more than the day before. John - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Friday, June 20, 2003 4:57 PM Re: vegetarian meat eaters How was it harming you anymore one day than the one before - unless you suddenly developed an allergy to it? Jo - John Davis Friday, June 20, 2003 10:57 AM Re: vegetarian meat eaters Hi Peter, >Where is the exploitation or cruelty in something which has already been killed *before* the >wearer turned vegan? What *more* harm is done by continuing to wear it? No more harm to the animal. But - at the risk of sounding fluffy - I felt it was harming me. Now I'm a vegan primarily because I don't want to live on the cruelty and suffering of other animals, but I freely admit that I also get a feeling of well-being from trying to live this way. And so it makes me feel better to know that I am not wearing animal products. Mind you, that said, if you see no harm in wearing an animal skin of an animal killed before you turned vegan, by extension do you also see no harm in eating the meat of an animal killed before you turned vegan? Because that gives new Vegans a good year or so (possibly more if horror tales of supermarkets are to be believed) of eating meat, since the animals were killed before they turned vegan. > What make of shoes would these be? I found two pairs. The first have no label left I'm afraid - they're those flimsy 'plimsol' type things, with straw soles and a cotton material top thing. And the second were a really nasty plastic fake leather pair of boots. Since then I have now got a pair from the vegan shoe shop in Brighton, which I did have to save up for, but at the time I just wanted to try and get rid of my leather products, so got the cheapest things I could find. Of course, I've no idea of the conditions they were made in, and so there are moral considerations there, but I'm afraid I must admit that this was a secondary consideration for me compared to the desire to get rid of the leather. John - " Peter " <metalscarab Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:37 PM Re: vegetarian meat eaters Hi John > " veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or cruelty > to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. " Where is the exploitation or cruelty in something which has already been killed *before* the wearer turned vegan? What *more* harm is done by continuing to wear it? > Oh, and as for fininancial considerations, I got a pair of non-leather > shoes, a jacket, and a hat, for under £20. all-in, courtesy of a local > market and a second-hand shop. What make of shoes would these be? BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Hi, >I must say that it is this holier-than-thou nit-picking attitude amongst many vegans that make us >seem very miserable uptight people to others. Does that bother you? >>Dear me no. I work with my friends, and belong firmly to the grunge/slacker >>style of dressing, so 'office wear' tends to consist of whatever I fall out >>of bed in! And I can't remember the last time I had to wear anything formal. >>So I guess you could say I'm lucky that I don't have to find formal vegan >>wear. Or, on the other hand, you could say that it isn't luck at all, but a >>good decision to opt out of the whole 9-5 office world where someone else >>dictates what I should wear. >I'm afraid there is absolutely nothing I wish to say to that self-righteous statement. I think you just did say something... But, more seriously, the kind of argument that says 'it is all right form e to wear leather because I have to wear it at work' makes it sound as if your working environment is something imposed upon you that you have no control over, and so are not responsible for what it makes you do. An extension of which is the 'I was ordered to do x, y or z' (insert unpleasant action of your choice). Yes, my statement was self-righteous, but that doesn't make it incorrect. (In case you hadn't noticed, I'm not the kind of person who considers false modesty a virtue!) John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 - Peter Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:16 PM Re: vegetarian meat eaters Hi Peter I agree - however, you seem to still be working under the misapprehension that your views are better than anyone elses. I believe the term used by psychologists for this is "denial". ;-)> I hold to the views ..that I think are best..not because they are mine ..but because I think they are the best views worth having to bring about a more peaceful world. I 'm all ears for others views. I think your assumption of what a psychologist analyse of my views might be, is opposite to the to the answer I gave you. Maybe it is you who is in denial..when it comes to wearing animals skins. SP Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Hi jo If you cannot be sure that your clothes are 100% vegan then you should not try to make other people feel bad when they have done nothing wrong. Didn't Jesus say something about 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone'- Am I casting stones..when all I was saying..that my view is I want to avoid wearing animal wear..and that I could investigate more fully.. some of the clothes I have. to see whether animal products have been used in the process of manufacturing. do you not judge meat eater? ---- Original Message ----- simonpjones Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:03 PM Re: vegetarian meat eaters - Peter Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:33 PM Re: vegetarian meat eaters You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!> Don't misunderstand someone trying to encourage less animal wear with self-rightousness. In all honestly I can't today be 100% sure the shoes or any of the clopthes I wear are 100% vegan unless I investigate the full manufacturing process. Can you tell me when you consider a leather jacket or a pair of shoes wore enough to be considered changing to a more humane clothes sense..that you encourage. They seem to last too long for me and my self-rightousness. SP In all honestly..I'm not 100% sure the shoes I have right now are 100% vegan...I would have to investigate further. can you ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 I wouldn't want to be nitpicky to people, I can't be totally sure that my cloth/ nylon shoes were not made from any animal products. At the same time I have in the past pitched fits because my coat was hung next to a fur coat at a restaurant. I have a thing about dead animals almost like a fear that the death could rub off on me. Anyway about the clothes I think to some degree it is a matter of perception. If there are any animal by products in my shoes it is a very small amount. Though a great big fur coat is a monstrocity. And I don't understand the idea of " fake " fur. Why on earth would someone want to look like they have a dead animal hung on their back? Though I do think fake leather shoes/ coat (pleather)may be more durable than regular cloth shoes or clothes which may make better since. I have mixed views on this topic. Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2003 Report Share Posted June 24, 2003 OK, I've had enough--can we PLEASE stop this petty sniping?! So long as you buy no new animal products after you become vegan, what's the big deal? some people must wear more professional clothes to work--and just getting a new job isn't always an option in this horrid economy; it took me eight months to find a permanent job--and vegan professional clothes that don't cost an arm and a leg are sometimes hard to come by. When your animal skin products wear out, then find vegan alternatives. If someone wants to give you grief--and believe me, there's an asshole or two in every office who must pick on every aspect of your life--I'm certain you have your response picked out. The next time someone gets on my butt because I'm not perfect, I will be tempted to snarl, " And what are YOU doing to reduce suffering? " For those who choose to make a fresh start and who can buy all vegan wear, fine. I like the friend swap idea, provided you have friends who wear the same size as you. Even better is to give the clothing to a homeless shelter where it will be put to good use. As someone said before, being a perfect vegan is impossible. No matter what we do, where we go, something we use will have resulted from the misery of an animal. I'd like to think that as more people become vegan, there will be fewer items made from animal corpses, and companies will have to find alternatives. Danielle " This is your American dream Everything is simple in the white and the black You will never need to see the grey anymore You will never have to be afraid. " --Everclear ----Original Message Follows---- " simonpjones " <simonpjones Re: vegetarian meat eaters Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:26:00 +0100 Hi jo If you cannot be sure that your clothes are 100% vegan then you should not try to make other people feel bad when they have done nothing wrong. Didn't Jesus say something about 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone'- Am I casting stones..when all I was saying..that my view is I want to avoid wearing animal wear..and that I could investigate more fully.. some of the clothes I have. to see whether animal products have been used in the process of manufacturing. do you not judge meat eater? ---- Original Message ----- simonpjones Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:03 PM Re: vegetarian meat eaters - Peter Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:33 PM Re: vegetarian meat eaters You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!> Don't misunderstand someone trying to encourage less animal wear with self-rightousness. In all honestly I can't today be 100% sure the shoes or any of the clopthes I wear are 100% vegan unless I investigate the full manufacturing process. Can you tell me when you consider a leather jacket or a pair of shoes wore enough to be considered changing to a more humane clothes sense..that you encourage. They seem to last too long for me and my self-rightousness. SP In all honestly..I'm not 100% sure the shoes I have right now are 100% vegan...I would have to investigate further. can you --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03 To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2003 Report Share Posted June 26, 2003 Well said Danielle, enough already too many vegan police on this site one or two cheif inspectors! The Valley Vegan.... OK, I've had enough--can we PLEASE stop this petty sniping?! So long as you buy no new animal products after you become vegan, what's the big deal? some people must wear more professional clothes to work--and just getting a new job isn't always an option in this horrid economy; it took me eight months to find a permanent job--and vegan professional clothes that don't cost an arm and a leg are sometimes hard to come by. When your animal skin products wear out, then find vegan alternatives. If someone wants to give you grief--and believe me, there's an asshole or two in every office who must pick on every aspect of your life--I'm certain you have your response picked out. The next time someone gets on my butt because I'm not perfect, I will be tempted to snarl, " And what are YOU doing to reduce suffering? " For those who choose to make a fresh start and who can buy all vegan wear, fine. I like the friend swap idea, provided you have friends who wear the same size as you. Even better is to give the clothing to a homeless shelter where it will be put to good use. As someone said before, being a perfect vegan is impossible. No matter what we do, where we go, something we use will have resulted from the misery of an animal. I'd like to think that as more people become vegan, there will be fewer items made from animal corpses, and companies will have to find alternatives. Danielle > Peter H -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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