vegetarian meat eaters

June 18, 2003

Hi Simon

> My point from the beginning is, it looks very distastfull to me..people wearing animal skins and 'vegans' wearing and trading them

> as... that doesn't seem to me as taking the issue very seriously.

I think we just have a different approach to veganism. For me, it's a personal choice I've made to do as little harm as possible to other living beings - I'm not fussed about what other people think of that choice, and I personally see veganism as an ethical choice rather than a fashion choice. My view is that if it doesn't do any harm, then it is very harsh to be critical.

BB

Peter

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June 19, 2003

Hi,

I could be wrong, but thought that the definition of veganism involved not

only not eating animal products, but also not using or wearing animal

products. To quote from the vegan society website:

" veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or cruelty

to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. "

So whilst it is of course a personal choice, if we are going to criticise

people who eat fish and call themselves vegetarian - and I have heard those

sentiments on the list recently - we should surely be equally harsh on

people who wear animal products and call themselves vegans. I'm not sure I'd

criticise either, but I guess that strictly speaking, if you wear leather,

you're not a vegan.

Personally, I considered keeping my leather hat and boots until they wore

out, but in the end chose to get rid of them. And the sense of well-being

that came from knowing that I was no longer consuming or wearing animal

products far outweighed the fact that I no longer had a hat which had

travelled round the world with me, and boots which I'd loved and worn every

day for almost ten years.

Oh, and as for fininancial considerations, I got a pair of non-leather

shoes, a jacket, and a hat, for under £20. all-in, courtesy of a local

market and a second-hand shop. So I'm not sure that money is much of a

factor if you really want to get rid of your leather.

John

-

" Peter " <metalscarab

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 10:41 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Hi Simon

> My point from the beginning is, it looks very distastfull to me..people

wearing animal skins and 'vegans' wearing and trading them

> as... that doesn't seem to me as taking the issue very seriously.

I think we just have a different approach to veganism. For me, it's a

personal choice I've made to do as little harm as possible to other living

beings - I'm not fussed about what other people think of that choice, and I

personally see veganism as an ethical choice rather than a fashion choice.

My view is that if it doesn't do any harm, then it is very harsh to be

critical.

BB

Peter

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June 19, 2003

Hi Peter

>I think we just have a different approach to veganism. For me, it's a personal choice I've made to do as little harm as possible to other living beings - >

BB

My sentiments also>

SP

I'm not fussed about what other people think of that choice, and I personally see veganism as an ethical choice rather than a fashion choice. My view is that if it doesn't do any harm, then it is very harsh to be critical.

BB

I'm glad for the most part.. to tell people about my adherents to veganism. I don't want to critize

anyone's practices..but wearing animal skins just doesn't seem to be doing the promotional side of veganism much good.

cheers

SP

BB

Peter

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June 19, 2003

Simon

I think it unlikely that you can promote veganism to anyone anyway. It is a choice you make yourself, and if someone is interested they will do it - but of course, they probably will keep their leather, silk and wool until it wears out - as far as I can see - the only sensible thing to do. Society is much too wasteful as it is, without over-zealous vegans adding to the waste.

Jo

-

simonpjones

Thursday, June 19, 2003 12:21 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Hi Peter

>I think we just have a different approach to veganism. For me, it's a personal choice I've made to do as little harm as possible to other living beings - >

BB

My sentiments also>

SP

I'm not fussed about what other people think of that choice, and I personally see veganism as an ethical choice rather than a fashion choice. My view is that if it doesn't do any harm, then it is very harsh to be critical.

BB

I'm glad for the most part.. to tell people about my adherents to veganism. I don't want to critize

anyone's practices..but wearing animal skins just doesn't seem to be doing the promotional side of veganism much good.

cheers

SP

BB

Peter

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June 19, 2003

Right on!

Sounds too much like the vegan police are out again!

Each to his/her own, and peace, love and understanding to you all.

The Valley Vegan...

> Why let the onus be on you to explain your whole lifestyle and every move you

make to other people who cannot be bothered to take ethical actions?

>

>Also - imitation leather looks exactly like leather - so how would they know

what your shoes are made of. They ask the same if you are wearing non-leather

shoes.

>

>Jo

>

>-

> Danielle Kichler

>

> Sunday, June 15, 2003 5:56 AM

> Re: vegetarian meat eaters

>

> There are some anti-veg assholes who will do everything they can to pick on

> you for every misstep. They're the sort who will harsh on you for wearing

> leather shoes, even if you did buy them long before you went vegan; they

> won't hear or care about that part.

>

> Danielle

>

> " This is your American dream

> Everything is simple in the white and the black

> You will never need to see the grey anymore

> You will never have to be afraid. " --Everclear

>

> ----Original Message Follows----

> " Peter " <metalscarab

>

> Re: vegetarian meat eaters

> Sat, 14 Jun 2003 22:52:28 +0100

>

> Hi Simon

>

> > I just think it's not the best way to promotes non- animal cruelty, and

> doesn'tr really give out a positive message to people.. to

> > giving up animal products.

>

> I really don't think non-vegans care too much about what vegans wear. I

> don't see that it actually makes any difference at all in the " promotion " of

> veganism.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

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June 19, 2003

I don't understand these words what is a " disgusting big prawn " is

that some type of fish. Sometimes I feel so stupid.

, " carly amato " <missred60@h...>

wrote:

>

June 19, 2003

a prawn is sorta like a shrimp

depending on where you live, a prawn is either a big shrimp(wot an oxymoron) or

a crayfish...

" renecarol25 " <renecarol25 wrote:

>I don't understand these words what is a " disgusting big prawn " is

>that some type of fish. Sometimes I feel so stupid.

>

> , " carly amato " <missred60@h...>

>wrote:

>>

>

>To send an email to -

>

June 19, 2003

Hi John

> "veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or cruelty

> to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

Where is the exploitation or cruelty in something which has already been killed *before* the wearer turned vegan? What *more* harm is done by continuing to wear it?

> Oh, and as for fininancial considerations, I got a pair of non-leather> shoes, a jacket, and a hat, for under £20. all-in, courtesy of a local> market and a second-hand shop.

What make of shoes would these be?

BB

Peter

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June 19, 2003

Hi Simon

> I'm glad for the most part.. to tell people about my adherents to veganism. I don't want to critize

> anyone's practices..but wearing animal skins just doesn't seem to be doing the promotional side of veganism much good.

As I believe I said, for me it's a *personal* choice - the point of a personal choice is that I also respect other peoples' choices, and see no need to "promote" my own choices as though I am better than other people.

BB

Peter

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June 19, 2003

John

>I could be wrong, but thought that the definition of veganism involved not>only not eating animal products, but also not using or wearing animal>products. To quote from the vegan society website:

Nobody is disputing the definition of veganism. As most vegans have not always been vegan they already had possessions before they became vegan. It would be extremely wasteful to just throw these items away before they wear out, and very expensive to replace them with vegan items. While it may be possible in some cases to pass these items on or sell them, it is not always the case. In my opinion - vegans should avoid the unnecessary waste of disposing of items that are still useful. My definition of a sensible vegan would be one who wears out what has already been purchased, and when these need replacing, replacing them with vegan items. Using pre-vegan already purchased items does not make one less of an ethical vegan, probably more for the reasons I have given above.

>"veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or cruelty>to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

...... and how would you suggest that wearing previously purchased items is exploiting or cruel. The exploitation and cruelty has already happened before you saw the light and became vegan.>So whilst it is of course a personal choice, if we are going to criticise>people who eat fish and call themselves vegetarian - and I have heard those>sentiments on the list recently - we should surely be equally harsh on>people who wear animal products and call themselves vegans.

Vegetarians who eat fish do not eat fish that they purchased five years previously. They are actively still purchasing fish with the specific intention of eating it, and they have no current intention of giving up buying and eating fish. Most people, when they first decide to turn vegetarian finish off the contents of their fridge and freezer. What they do is not buy any more fish. It seems a perfectly simple concept to me, and I am sure is understood by everyone.

>I'm not sure I'd>criticise either, but I guess that strictly speaking, if you wear leather,>you're not a vegan.

I guess that I don't agree with you. I would say that if you are not buying animal products at all, then you have every right to call yourself vegan.>Personally, I considered keeping my leather hat and boots until they wore>out, but in the end chose to get rid of them. And the sense of well-being>that came from knowing that I was no longer consuming or wearing animal>products far outweighed the fact that I no longer had a hat which had>travelled round the world with me, and boots which I'd loved and worn every>day for almost ten years.

Maybe you are better off than some of us then.>Oh, and as for fininancial considerations, I got a pair of non-leather>shoes, a jacket, and a hat, for under £20. all-in, courtesy of a local>market and a second-hand shop. So I'm not sure that money is much of a>factor if you really want to get rid of your leather.

If you have very wide feet it is impossible to find cheap vegan shoes that you can wear. Some of the Vegetarian Shoes shoes fit, but they are usually £65 or more. Otherwise you have them made by Green Shoes, and they cost from £70 upwards.

I would also ask whether the clothes you purchased were suitable for formal and office wear. We have not been so lucky round this area to find anything cheap.

Jo

John-"Peter" <metalscarabWednesday, June 18, 2003 10:41 PMRe: vegetarian meat eatersHi Simon> My point from the beginning is, it looks very distastfull to me..peoplewearing animal skins and 'vegans' wearing and trading them> as... that doesn't seem to me as taking the issue very seriously.I think we just have a different approach to veganism. For me, it's apersonal choice I've made to do as little harm as possible to other livingbeings - I'm not fussed about what other people think of that choice, and Ipersonally see veganism as an ethical choice rather than a fashion choice.My view is that if it doesn't do any harm, then it is very harsh to becritical.BBPeter---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03

To send an email to -

June 19, 2003

Thanks... not something I would ever eat so I guess I really don't

need to know what it is. But it is helpful if I ever see prawn

listed under vegetarian entree's I'll know not to order it.

Typically I don't eat anything unless I know what it is anyhow. Even

if it does say it is vegetarian.

Renee

, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

> a prawn is sorta like a shrimp

> depending on where you live, a prawn is either a big shrimp(wot an

oxymoron) or a crayfish...

>

> " renecarol25 " <renecarol25> wrote:

>

> >I don't understand these words what is a " disgusting big prawn " is

> >that some type of fish. Sometimes I feel so stupid.

> >

> > , " carly amato " <missred60@h...>

> >wrote:

> >>

> >

> >To send an email to -

> >

June 20, 2003

Nobody is disputing the definition of veganism. As most vegans have not always been vegan they already had possessions before they became vegan. It would be extremely wasteful to just throw these items away before they wear out, and very expensive to replace them with vegan items. While it may be possible in some cases to pass these items on or sell them, it is not always the case. In my opinion - vegans should avoid the unnecessary waste of disposing of items that are still useful. My definition of a sensible vegan would be one who wears out what has already been purchased, and when these need replacing, replacing them with vegan items. Using pre-vegan already purchased items does not make one less of an ethical vegan, probably more for the reasons I have given above.>

I must admit to hear someone who adheres to veganism..to be putting money before these poor creatures skins and talking of trading their skins seems a little stange to me, but we're all different and we all have similiar aims ,so good luck.

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June 20, 2003

I think a prawn is a shrimp on steroids. in other words, a large version of

a shrimp.

" This is your American dream

Everything is simple in the white and the black

You will never need to see the grey anymore

You will never have to be afraid. " --Everclear

----Original Message Follows----

" renecarol25 " <renecarol25

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:28:09 -0000

I don't understand these words what is a " disgusting big prawn " is

that some type of fish. Sometimes I feel so stupid.

, " carly amato " <missred60@h...>

wrote:

>

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June 20, 2003

I once bought a pair of Vegetarian Shoes online (whatta mistake!) and they

were way too narrow for my fat feet. I have really weird feet, so I must

try them on.

Danielle

" This is your American dream

Everything is simple in the white and the black

You will never need to see the grey anymore

You will never have to be afraid. " --Everclear

----Original Message Follows----

" Heartwork " <Heartwork

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:04:20 +0100

John

>I could be wrong, but thought that the definition of veganism involved not

>only not eating animal products, but also not using or wearing animal

>products. To quote from the vegan society website:

Nobody is disputing the definition of veganism. As most vegans have not

always been vegan they already had possessions before they became vegan. It

would be extremely wasteful to just throw these items away before they wear

out, and very expensive to replace them with vegan items. While it may be

possible in some cases to pass these items on or sell them, it is not always

the case. In my opinion - vegans should avoid the unnecessary waste of

disposing of items that are still useful. My definition of a sensible vegan

would be one who wears out what has already been purchased, and when these

need replacing, replacing them with vegan items. Using pre-vegan already

purchased items does not make one less of an ethical vegan, probably more

for the reasons I have given above.

> " veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or cruelty

>to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. "

...... and how would you suggest that wearing previously purchased items is

exploiting or cruel. The exploitation and cruelty has already happened

before you saw the light and became vegan.

>So whilst it is of course a personal choice, if we are going to criticise

>people who eat fish and call themselves vegetarian - and I have heard

those

>sentiments on the list recently - we should surely be equally harsh on

>people who wear animal products and call themselves vegans.

Vegetarians who eat fish do not eat fish that they purchased five years

previously. They are actively still purchasing fish with the specific

intention of eating it, and they have no current intention of giving up

buying and eating fish. Most people, when they first decide to turn

vegetarian finish off the contents of their fridge and freezer. What they

do is not buy any more fish. It seems a perfectly simple concept to me, and

I am sure is understood by everyone.

>I'm not sure I'd

>criticise either, but I guess that strictly speaking, if you wear leather,

>you're not a vegan.

I guess that I don't agree with you. I would say that if you are not buying

animal products at all, then you have every right to call yourself vegan.

>Personally, I considered keeping my leather hat and boots until they wore

>out, but in the end chose to get rid of them. And the sense of well-being

>that came from knowing that I was no longer consuming or wearing animal

>products far outweighed the fact that I no longer had a hat which had

>travelled round the world with me, and boots which I'd loved and worn

every

>day for almost ten years.

Maybe you are better off than some of us then.

>Oh, and as for fininancial considerations, I got a pair of non-leather

>shoes, a jacket, and a hat, for under £20. all-in, courtesy of a local

>market and a second-hand shop. So I'm not sure that money is much of a

>factor if you really want to get rid of your leather.

If you have very wide feet it is impossible to find cheap vegan shoes that

you can wear. Some of the Vegetarian Shoes shoes fit, but they are usually

£65 or more. Otherwise you have them made by Green Shoes, and they cost

from £70 upwards.

I would also ask whether the clothes you purchased were suitable for formal

and office wear. We have not been so lucky round this area to find anything

cheap.

Jo

John

-

" Peter " <metalscarab

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 10:41 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Hi Simon

> My point from the beginning is, it looks very distastfull to me..people

wearing animal skins and 'vegans' wearing and trading them

> as... that doesn't seem to me as taking the issue very seriously.

I think we just have a different approach to veganism. For me, it's a

personal choice I've made to do as little harm as possible to other living

beings - I'm not fussed about what other people think of that choice, and I

personally see veganism as an ethical choice rather than a fashion choice.

My view is that if it doesn't do any harm, then it is very harsh to be

critical.

BB

Peter

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June 20, 2003

Hi Peter,

>Where is the exploitation or cruelty in something which has already been

killed *before* the >wearer turned vegan? What *more* harm is done by

continuing to wear it?

No more harm to the animal. But - at the risk of sounding fluffy - I felt it

was harming me. Now I'm a vegan primarily because I don't want to live on

the cruelty and suffering of other animals, but I freely admit that I also

get a feeling of well-being from trying to live this way. And so it makes me

feel better to know that I am not wearing animal products.

Mind you, that said, if you see no harm in wearing an animal skin of an

animal killed before you turned vegan, by extension do you also see no harm

in eating the meat of an animal killed before you turned vegan? Because that

gives new Vegans a good year or so (possibly more if horror tales of

supermarkets are to be believed) of eating meat, since the animals were

killed before they turned vegan.

> What make of shoes would these be?

I found two pairs. The first have no label left I'm afraid - they're those

flimsy 'plimsol' type things, with straw soles and a cotton material top

thing. And the second were a really nasty plastic fake leather pair of

boots. Since then I have now got a pair from the vegan shoe shop in

Brighton, which I did have to save up for, but at the time I just wanted to

try and get rid of my leather products, so got the cheapest things I could

find. Of course, I've no idea of the conditions they were made in, and so

there are moral considerations there, but I'm afraid I must admit that this

was a secondary consideration for me compared to the desire to get rid of

the leather.

John

-

" Peter " <metalscarab

Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:37 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Hi John

> " veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or cruelty

> to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. "

Where is the exploitation or cruelty in something which has already been

killed *before* the wearer turned vegan? What *more* harm is done by

continuing to wear it?

> Oh, and as for fininancial considerations, I got a pair of non-leather

> shoes, a jacket, and a hat, for under £20. all-in, courtesy of a local

> market and a second-hand shop.

What make of shoes would these be?

BB

Peter

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June 20, 2003

Hi Jo,

I think my email to Peter kind of replied to you as well, for the most part.

But a couple of bits...

> Most people, when they first decide to turn vegetarian finish off the

contents of their fridge >and freezer. What they do is not buy any more

fish. It seems a perfectly simple concept to me, >and I am sure is

understood by everyone.

But I think that most people would not call themselves vegetarians until

they've finished off the contents of their fridge and freezer. The simple

concept, for me, is that a vegetarian does not eat fish. Not that a

vegetarian does not eat fish unless it happens to be sitting in their

freezer.

>I guess that I don't agree with you. I would say that if you are not

buying animal products at >all, then you have every right to call yourself

vegan.

Out of curiosity, if someone brought you an animal product, would you

wear/use it, and would you still consider yourself a vegan whilst doing so?

>I would also ask whether the clothes you purchased were suitable for formal

and office wear.

Dear me no. I work with my friends, and belong firmly to the grunge/slacker

style of dressing, so 'office wear' tends to consist of whatever I fall out

of bed in! And I can't remember the last time I had to wear anything formal.

So I guess you could say I'm lucky that I don't have to find formal vegan

wear. Or, on the other hand, you could say that it isn't luck at all, but a

good decision to opt out of the whole 9-5 office world where someone else

dictates what I should wear.

John

-

" Heartwork " <Heartwork

Thursday, June 19, 2003 8:04 PM