vegetarian meat eaters

[Guest guest]

almost everything is recyclable,there shouldn't be a need to dump anything.

 

Anyway I sure we have a lot more things to agree on then disagree on.

 

 

-

Peter

Friday, June 20, 2003 4:25 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

Hi Simon

 

> I must admit to hear someone who adheres to veganism..to be putting money before these poor creatures skins and talking of

> trading their skins seems a little stange to me, but we're all different and we all have similiar aims ,so good luck.

 

I am surprised to hear a vegan put their own distaste above the welfare of other animals.... presumably you haven't thought of the effect on the planet and the animals with whom we share it of simply dumping all that non-biodegradable material?

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

 

> I must admit when we're talking about 10 -20 quid a pair of shoes and 50 pence to 1 pound..

 

In which particular parallel universe can you find smart non-animal mens shoes for £10 to £20? Just to clarify, I live on planet earth where these items cost at least £50.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

 

> almost everything is recyclable,there shouldn't be a need to dump anything.

 

Leather is not recyclable, nor is it biodegradable - that is the whole point of tanning it in the first place!

 

Anyway, I think that despite all these different arguments, there is one basic difference between the two sides of the debate. It's the difference between liberalism and fundamentalism - one side accepts that there are different ways of approaching veganism and animal rights and that it should be down to the individual to decide, the other believes that theirs is the only acceptable way and that everyone else should follow what they say.

 

As John has already said, the reason why some people get rid of all their old animal products when they turn vegan has nothing to do with thinking through whether or not it is right or wrong to continue to use them, but rather because it makes them feel better about themselves. Personally I got rid of most of my leather products when I went vegetarian (the only exception was shoes, which I replaced when they wore out) - but at least I realise that this was purely because it made me feel better and I know that I never thought through the rights and wrongs of doing so. I also think that it would be very wrong of me to tell someone else that they were wrong simply because they didn't make the same choice I did!

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

 

-

Peter

Friday, June 20, 2003 10:46 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

Hi Peter

 

In which particular parallel universe can you find smart non-animal mens shoes for £10 to £20? Just to clarify, I live on planet earth where these items cost at least £50.>

 

I wouldn't of paying more then 30 quid for a pair of shoes..I never have paid more than 15 quid for a pair of shoes..I have 2 pairs of smart looking shoes which I bought (admitedly I hardly use them and got them a couple of years ago) I usually wear trainer which I pay 10 maybe 12 pound from planet markets.

 

SP

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

 

> I wouldn't of paying more then 30 quid for a pair of shoes..I never have paid more than 15 quid for a pair of shoes..I have 2 pairs of

> smart looking shoes which I bought (admitedly I hardly use them and got them a couple of years ago) I usually wear trainer which

> I pay 10 maybe 12 pound from planet markets.

 

I've never seen *any* pair of smart shoes for under £30, vegan or not. Even before I went vegetarian descent mens shoes (leather or not) cost at least that - and that was 5 and a half years ago. Where is this "Planet Markets"?

 

What adhesives are used in those shoes and trainers? And how were they manufactured (i.e. using local labour or 3rd world slave labour)? Just because something isn't made of leather doesn't mean that it is animal or human friendly!

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

You cannot wear sandals to the office. I don't know what happens where you live and work (where is that?) but where I live the offices give a dispensation to men to not wear a tie to the office, when the temperature is deemed to high.

 

Jo

 

 

I must admit when we're talking about 10 -20 quid a pair of shoes and 50 pence to 1 pound.. a second hand non-leather trouser belt, it wasn't that much of a problem.

All I'm saying without trying to sound too judgemental..is it really that much of a problem for people who want to give up wearing animal skins..to actually give up wearing them in practice. Some sandels cost only a couple pounds new.

 

SP

 

 

your statement sounds like it comes from someone who has enough money not to worry about what they are doing with it. That is not true for all of us. It would also seem that your care is only for animals not the planet or environment.

 

Jo

 

I must admit to hear someone who adheres to veganism..to be putting money before these poor creatures skins and talking of trading their skins seems a little stange to me, but we're all different and we all have similiar aims ,so good luck.

 

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[Guest guest]

"Quality animal-free footwear is generally available only by mail order from specialist companies." -

 

The Vegan Society - Vegan Shopper.

 

Jo

 

-

simonpjones

Friday, June 20, 2003 11:31 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

 

 

-

Peter

Friday, June 20, 2003 10:46 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

Hi Peter

 

In which particular parallel universe can you find smart non-animal mens shoes for £10 to £20? Just to clarify, I live on planet earth where these items cost at least £50.>

 

I wouldn't of paying more then 30 quid for a pair of shoes..I never have paid more than 15 quid for a pair of shoes..I have 2 pairs of smart looking shoes which I bought (admitedly I hardly use them and got them a couple of years ago) I usually wear trainer which I pay 10 maybe 12 pound from planet markets.

 

SP

 

 

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[Guest guest]

My concern is whether my actions cause animal suffering and death. By continuing to wear my previously purchased articles of clothing I am not causing this. If I purchased new animal articles I would be. Seems straight forward to me, and I feel that anyone who discards articles before they are worn out is very wasteful and possibly causing unnecessary harm to the planet.

 

Jo

 

-

Vincent Guihan

Friday, June 20, 2003 5:50 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

I think this thread raises the fundamental difference between vegans who believe in animal welfare and those who believe in animal rights. When I transitioned to veganism from vegetarianism, I held on to my silk ties, wool blazers, etc. I hadn't owned any leather for some time, as animals are often killed just for the leather and not as a by-product.As I learned more about animals rights and came to a decision that I felt that animals have them and one of them is not to suffer unnecessarily, I donated any animal-related pieces of clothing I owned. From an animal rights perspective, hanging on to *any* of those pieces for *any* reason was like hanging on to a lamp-shade made of human skin.Sure, the human being whose skin is involved wouldn't be harmed anymore if I were to hang on to it. And certainly replacing it with another lampshade wouldn't be environmentally friendly, but getting rid of it would still be the right thing to do. It's not simply a lampshade, an article of clothing, a shoe. It's a symbolic representation of violence toward and disdain for the living being from which it came.I donated them because I understand that there are people who don't agree with my view that animals have rights, and that they could benefit from the clothing in good conscience. Now, I think it's possible to be a vegan and still own and use animal products (most of do without even realizing it). But I also think that anyone who takes the rights of animals seriously should probably part with the products of animal slavery as quickly as possible, even if it means a little more human exploitation. After all, there's a grave difference between the two.Vincent_______________MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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[Guest guest]

My concern is whether my actions cause animal suffering and death. By continuing to wear my previously purchased articles of clothing I am not causing this. If I purchased new animal articles I would be. Seems straight forward to me, and I feel that anyone who discards articles before they are worn out is very wasteful and possibly causing unnecessary harm to the planet.

 

Jo

 

-

Vincent Guihan

Friday, June 20, 2003 5:50 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

I think this thread raises the fundamental difference between vegans who believe in animal welfare and those who believe in animal rights. When I transitioned to veganism from vegetarianism, I held on to my silk ties, wool blazers, etc. I hadn't owned any leather for some time, as animals are often killed just for the leather and not as a by-product.As I learned more about animals rights and came to a decision that I felt that animals have them and one of them is not to suffer unnecessarily, I donated any animal-related pieces of clothing I owned. From an animal rights perspective, hanging on to *any* of those pieces for *any* reason was like hanging on to a lamp-shade made of human skin.Sure, the human being whose skin is involved wouldn't be harmed anymore if I were to hang on to it. And certainly replacing it with another lampshade wouldn't be environmentally friendly, but getting rid of it would still be the right thing to do. It's not simply a lampshade, an article of clothing, a shoe. It's a symbolic representation of violence toward and disdain for the living being from which it came.I donated them because I understand that there are people who don't agree with my view that animals have rights, and that they could benefit from the clothing in good conscience. Now, I think it's possible to be a vegan and still own and use animal products (most of do without even realizing it). But I also think that anyone who takes the rights of animals seriously should probably part with the products of animal slavery as quickly as possible, even if it means a little more human exploitation. After all, there's a grave difference between the two.Vincent_______________MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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[Guest guest]

i know part of the reason Vegan shoes and products are generally more expensive is the economy of scale..smaller companies make them, and can't affors to purchase huge gross amounts..they aren't Wal-Mart!

it costs more to make a vegan shoe as

a. the company is smaller, has a few workers, etc(in general..)

b. other companies use sweat shop labor in some other area of the world and can purchase huge amounts of leather for cheap....

c. a larger company can make a profit on less margin..since they deal in mass, smaller companies don't have that privalege...

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with Peter, my planet too has exploitative prices of vegan

shoes.

P.S. Does anyone know how they can justify these prices, I assume the profit

margin must be >500%, Does anyone else think that we are being exploited for our

beliefs?? ( I hope this tangent throws off the bickering vegan police)

The Valley vegan.......

> Hi Simon

>

> I must admit when we're talking about 10 -20 quid a pair of shoes and 50 pence

to 1 pound..

>

>In which particular parallel universe can you find smart non-animal mens shoes

for £10 to £20? Just to clarify, I live on planet earth where these items cost

at least £50.

>

>BB

>Peter

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

> I have to agree with Peter, my planet too has exploitative prices of vegan shoes.> P.S. Does anyone know how they can justify these prices, I assume the profit margin must be > 500%, Does anyone else think that we are being exploited for our beliefs??

 

That's a good question. It does seem a bit surprising that vegan shoes are more expensive than leather - after all, leather has always been considered by our society as being a "luxury" item.

 

The most expensive pair of shoes I've bought came from Green Shoes - although I felt the price (around £90) was justified in that they hand-make the shoes to fit your feet exactly (and they were the most comfortable shoes I've ever had).

 

I think Fraggle had some very good points about economies of scale and so on. Also, at least places like Vegetarian Shoes and Ethical Wares have done quite a bit in the production of higher quality, longer lasting leather substitutes - before these sort of places came along we were stuck (pretty much literally) with plastic as the only alternative to leather. Perhaps as veg*nism becomes more popular they might be able to benefit from higher demand and prices may come down :-)

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Maybe someone could set up a charity...which could help vegans ..who can't

afford vegan clothes to buy them..rather than wear the animal wear.

Remembering we are talking more about the slaughtered animal than shoes etc.

 

SP

-

<swpgh01

;

Saturday, June 21, 2003 3:49 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

 

I have to agree with Peter, my planet too has exploitative prices of vegan

shoes.

P.S. Does anyone know how they can justify these prices, I assume the profit

margin must be >500%, Does anyone else think that we are being exploited for

our beliefs?? ( I hope this tangent throws off the bickering vegan police)

The Valley vegan.......

> Hi Simon

>

> I must admit when we're talking about 10 -20 quid a pair of shoes and 50

pence to 1 pound..

>

>In which particular parallel universe can you find smart non-animal mens

shoes for £10 to £20? Just to clarify, I live on planet earth where these

items cost at least £50.

>

>BB

>Peter

>

>

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Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

Simon

 

I don't think vegans who cannot afford to throw away serviceable clothes would gain much sympathy or interest from the general population, or many other vegans. It is my choice not to throw away serviceable clothes and I do not ask for, nor would I accept, any offer of help from someone who was under the impression that they knew better than me.

 

Jo

 

-

simonpjones

Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:23 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Maybe someone could set up a charity...which could help vegans ..who can'tafford vegan clothes to buy them..rather than wear the animal wear.Remembering we are talking more about the slaughtered animal than shoes etc.SP-<swpgh01; Saturday, June 21, 2003 3:49 PMRe: vegetarian meat eatersI have to agree with Peter, my planet too has exploitative prices of veganshoes.P.S. Does anyone know how they can justify these prices, I assume the profitmargin must be >500%, Does anyone else think that we are being exploited forour beliefs?? ( I hope this tangent throws off the bickering vegan police)The Valley vegan.......> Hi Simon>> I must admit when we're talking about 10 -20 quid a pair of shoes and 50pence to 1 pound..>>In which particular parallel universe can you find smart non-animal mensshoes for £10 to £20? Just to clarify, I live on planet earth where theseitems cost at least £50.>>BB>Peter>>>--->Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (<a Target='_new'Href='http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.grisoft.com)'>http://www.grisoft.com)</a>>Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03Peter H--------------------talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net athttp://www.talk21.comTo send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

 

> Maybe someone could set up a charity...which could help vegans ..who can't> afford vegan clothes to buy them..rather than wear the animal wear.> Remembering we are talking more about the slaughtered animal than shoes etc.

You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

 

-

Peter

Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:33 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!>

 

 

Don't misunderstand someone trying to encourage less animal wear with self-rightousness. In all honestly I can't today be 100% sure the shoes or any of the clopthes I wear are 100% vegan unless I investigate the full manufacturing process.

Can you tell me when you consider a leather jacket or a pair of shoes wore enough to be considered changing to a more humane clothes sense..that you encourage.

They seem to last too long for me and my self-rightousness.

 

SP

In all honestly..I'm not 100% sure the shoes I have right now are 100% vegan...I would have to investigate further. can you

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Jo

 

I don't think I know better..Is it wrong of me to think people shouldn't wear animal skins?

 

I still have to double check a pair of shoes I have which could have some animal product used in their manufactering.

 

SP

[Guest guest]

 

-

Peter

Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:33 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

Hi Simon

 

> Maybe someone could set up a charity...which could help vegans ..who can't> afford vegan clothes to buy them..rather than wear the animal wear.> Remembering we are talking more about the slaughtered animal than shoes etc.

You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

 

> Don't misunderstand someone trying to encourage less animal wear with self-rightousness. In all honestly I can't today be 100%

> sure the shoes or any of the clopthes I wear are 100% vegan unless I investigate the full manufacturing process.

 

You could use the Vegan Shopper - they do all the research for you.

 

> Can you tell me when you consider a leather jacket or a pair of shoes wore enough to be considered changing to a more humane

> clothes sense..that you encourage.

 

I wouldn't make that judgement for anyone other than myself. I accept that people have different views, and that while I am very happy with my own, I don't assume that they are better than anyone else's.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Simon

 

If you cannot be sure that your clothes are 100% vegan then you should not try to make other people feel bad when they have done nothing wrong. Didn't Jesus say something about 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone'.

 

I think that as you cannot prove that you are perfect in this matter, ow might be a good time to drop the subject.

 

Jo

 

-

simonpjones

Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:03 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

 

 

-

Peter

Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:33 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!>

 

 

Don't misunderstand someone trying to encourage less animal wear with self-rightousness. In all honestly I can't today be 100% sure the shoes or any of the clopthes I wear are 100% vegan unless I investigate the full manufacturing process.

Can you tell me when you consider a leather jacket or a pair of shoes wore enough to be considered changing to a more humane clothes sense..that you encourage.

They seem to last too long for me and my self-rightousness.

 

SP

In all honestly..I'm not 100% sure the shoes I have right now are 100% vegan...I would have to investigate further. can you

 

 

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[Guest guest]

It is not wrong of you - it just shows a mistaken sense of wrong doing when talking about previously purchased items.

 

Jo

 

-

simonpjones

Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:09 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

Jo

 

I don't think I know better..Is it wrong of me to think people shouldn't wear animal skins?

 

I still have to double check a pair of shoes I have which could have some animal product used in their manufactering.

 

SP

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I accept that people have different views, and that while I am very happy with my own, I don't assume that they are better than anyone else's.>

 

If I hear a view which seems a better view than my currant one ..I would have to change or at least modify the view which I had.

 

Simon

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

 

> If I hear a view which seems a better view than my currant one ..I would have to change or at least modify the view which I had.

 

I agree - however, you seem to still be working under the misapprehension that your views are better than anyone elses. I believe the term used by psychologists for this is "denial". ;-)

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Peter,

 

>I wouldn't make that judgement for anyone other than myself. I accept that

people have >different views, and that while I am very happy with my own, I

don't assume that they are >better than anyone else's.

 

<rudely butting in to someone elses's conversation...>

 

Is that really the case? That you don't think your views are better than

anyone else's? Because I for one certainly think my view that it is wrong to

eat animals is better than the views of people who think eating meat is

fine. Or, to play the extremist card, I think my views are a whole lot

better than those who think murder, rape, ethnic cleansing, etc. etc. are

acceptable.

 

I do acknowledge that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but also

think that mine are better than some others - after all, that is why I hold

them. And I think that, if people are honest with themselves, many - if not

most or even all - are exactly the same.

 

John

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter,

 

>Fair enough - but someone else continuing to wear an old pair of leather

shoes isn't harming >you (is it?) so they are not outside the definition you

gave for veganism.

 

I'm not sure I'd want to include 'making John feel better' as part of a

definition for veganism! That was just why I got rid of my leather shoes. I

suppose the question is whether the definition of veganism includes or

excludes the use of animal products, either pre-owned or brought afterwards.

Which definition certainly isn't up to me to decide - all I can say is that

my own 'version' of veganism excludes their use.

 

>So, not the sort of thing that could be worn in an office, then? And

presumably no guarantee >that the glue was animal friendly?

 

Well, they can be worn at my office, but probably not most of them. And no,

I've no guarantee that the glue was animal friendly, other than the best

guess of the shop. But that's the case whenever you buy something - you have

to trust whoever you brought them from. For all I know, some of the produce

I buy that a shop says is vegan isn't - you just have to take some things on

trust.

 

>Here's an interesting ethical " aside " - what causes more harm - to continue

to wear an old pair >of leather shoes until they need replacing, or to buy a

new pair of shoes in a rush to " look " >vegan which are probably made with

glue made from animal products?

 

I guess it depends on your goal. If your goal is not to wear animal

products, then it is better to wear something that might contain animal

products than something that definitely contains animal products. If you

goal is not to cause further harm to animals, then it probably doesn't

matter either way if the item was pre-used - be it owned by you, or someone

else. If your goal is to promote veganism through what you wear, it is

probably more important that you are not seen to be wearing leather. And if

your goal is welfare of living beings not just animals, you might even be

better off buying animal products in some circumstances.

 

For me, my goal was to get rid of as many animal products as possible from

my life, and replace them with what I hope are not animal products. And as

time and money allow, the percentage of animal products will hopefully

shrink to near zero. Near zero, because anyone who really thinks they are

not using or utilising any animal products in their existence in any way is

either fooling themselves or - as someone said earlier - a hermit.

 

John

-

" Peter " <metalscarab

 

Friday, June 20, 2003 4:17 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

 

 

Hi John

 

> No more harm to the animal. But - at the risk of sounding fluffy - I felt

it

> was harming me.

 

Fair enough - but someone else continuing to wear an old pair of leather

shoes isn't harming you (is it?) so they are not outside the definition you

gave for veganism.

 

> Mind you, that said, if you see no harm in wearing an animal skin of an

> animal killed before you turned vegan, by extension do you also see no

harm

> in eating the meat of an animal killed before you turned vegan? Because

that

> gives new Vegans a good year or so (possibly more if horror tales of

> supermarkets are to be believed) of eating meat, since the animals were

> killed before they turned vegan.

 

It's a matter of *purchasing* - by buying a meat product you are creating

the demand thereby creating more harm. If you happen to have had the meat in

your fridge for 5 years or whatever and have not purchased any more, then I

would not see a problem. Personally, I used up the chees I had when I first

decided to go vegan - lasted about half an hour if I remember rightly!

 

> I found two pairs. The first have no label left I'm afraid - they're those

> flimsy 'plimsol' type things, with straw soles and a cotton material top

> thing. And the second were a really nasty plastic fake leather pair of

> boots.

 

So, not the sort of thing that could be worn in an office, then? And

presumably no guarantee that the glue was animal friendly?

 

Here's an interesting ethical " aside " - what causes more harm - to continue

to wear an old pair of leather shoes until they need replacing, or to buy a

new pair of shoes in a rush to " look " vegan which are probably made with

glue made from animal products?

 

(And don't take that as a criticism, merely a interesting rhetorical

question).

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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