vegetarian meat eaters

June 23, 2003

Hi,

You might say I developed a mental allergy to it. I think it fair to say

that becoming vegan involves a kind of mental conversion, so that what

applied to you the day before is altered. After all, the day before becoming

vegan I thought it was fine to eat eggs, and the day before becoming

vegetarian thought it fine to eat meat. So to return to the shoe issue, the

day before I was a vegan I thought it acceptable to wear leather (being

'only' a by-product of slaughter), the day after I thought it unacceptable.

Therefore it was harming me - if you can apply harm to a moral feeling -

more than the day before.

John

-

" Heartwork " <Heartwork

Friday, June 20, 2003 4:57 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

How was it harming you anymore one day than the one before - unless you

suddenly developed an allergy to it?

Jo

-

John Davis

Friday, June 20, 2003 10:57 AM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Hi Peter,

>Where is the exploitation or cruelty in something which has already been

killed *before* the >wearer turned vegan? What *more* harm is done by

continuing to wear it?

No more harm to the animal. But - at the risk of sounding fluffy - I felt

it

was harming me. Now I'm a vegan primarily because I don't want to live on

the cruelty and suffering of other animals, but I freely admit that I also

get a feeling of well-being from trying to live this way. And so it makes

me

feel better to know that I am not wearing animal products.

Mind you, that said, if you see no harm in wearing an animal skin of an

animal killed before you turned vegan, by extension do you also see no

harm

in eating the meat of an animal killed before you turned vegan? Because

that

gives new Vegans a good year or so (possibly more if horror tales of

supermarkets are to be believed) of eating meat, since the animals were

killed before they turned vegan.

> What make of shoes would these be?

I found two pairs. The first have no label left I'm afraid - they're those

flimsy 'plimsol' type things, with straw soles and a cotton material top

thing. And the second were a really nasty plastic fake leather pair of

boots. Since then I have now got a pair from the vegan shoe shop in

Brighton, which I did have to save up for, but at the time I just wanted

to

try and get rid of my leather products, so got the cheapest things I could

find. Of course, I've no idea of the conditions they were made in, and so

there are moral considerations there, but I'm afraid I must admit that

this

was a secondary consideration for me compared to the desire to get rid of

the leather.

John

-

" Peter " <metalscarab

Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:37 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Hi John

> " veganism is a way of life which seeks to avoid exploitation of or

cruelty

> to animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. "

Where is the exploitation or cruelty in something which has already been

killed *before* the wearer turned vegan? What *more* harm is done by

continuing to wear it?

> Oh, and as for fininancial considerations, I got a pair of non-leather

> shoes, a jacket, and a hat, for under £20. all-in, courtesy of a local

> market and a second-hand shop.

What make of shoes would these be?

BB

Peter

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June 23, 2003

Hi,

>I must say that it is this holier-than-thou nit-picking attitude amongst

many vegans that make us >seem very miserable uptight people to others.

Does that bother you?

>>Dear me no. I work with my friends, and belong firmly to the

grunge/slacker

>>style of dressing, so 'office wear' tends to consist of whatever I fall

out

>>of bed in! And I can't remember the last time I had to wear anything

formal.

>>So I guess you could say I'm lucky that I don't have to find formal vegan

>>wear. Or, on the other hand, you could say that it isn't luck at all, but

a

>>good decision to opt out of the whole 9-5 office world where someone else

>>dictates what I should wear.

>I'm afraid there is absolutely nothing I wish to say to that self-righteous

statement.

I think you just did say something...

But, more seriously, the kind of argument that says 'it is all right form e

to wear leather because I have to wear it at work' makes it sound as if your

working environment is something imposed upon you that you have no control

over, and so are not responsible for what it makes you do. An extension of

which is the 'I was ordered to do x, y or z' (insert unpleasant action of

your choice). Yes, my statement was self-righteous, but that doesn't make it

incorrect.

(In case you hadn't noticed, I'm not the kind of person who considers false

modesty a virtue!)

John

June 23, 2003

-

Peter

Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:16 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Hi Peter

I agree - however, you seem to still be working under the misapprehension that your views are better than anyone elses. I believe the term used by psychologists for this is "denial". ;-)>

I hold to the views ..that I think are best..not because they are mine ..but because I think they are the best views worth having to bring about a more peaceful world.

I 'm all ears for others views.

I think your assumption of what a psychologist analyse of my views might be, is opposite to the to the answer I gave you. Maybe it is you who is in denial..when it comes to wearing animals skins.

SP

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June 23, 2003

Hi jo

If you cannot be sure that your clothes are 100% vegan then you should not try to make other people feel bad when they have done nothing wrong. Didn't Jesus say something about 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone'-

Am I casting stones..when all I was saying..that my view is I want to avoid wearing animal wear..and that I could investigate more fully.. some of the clothes I have. to see whether animal products have been used in the process of manufacturing.

do you not judge meat eater?

---- Original Message -----

simonpjones

Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:03 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

-

Peter

Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:33 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!>

Don't misunderstand someone trying to encourage less animal wear with self-rightousness. In all honestly I can't today be 100% sure the shoes or any of the clopthes I wear are 100% vegan unless I investigate the full manufacturing process.

Can you tell me when you consider a leather jacket or a pair of shoes wore enough to be considered changing to a more humane clothes sense..that you encourage.

They seem to last too long for me and my self-rightousness.

SP

In all honestly..I'm not 100% sure the shoes I have right now are 100% vegan...I would have to investigate further. can you

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June 23, 2003

I wouldn't want to be nitpicky to people, I can't be totally sure

that my cloth/ nylon shoes were not made from any animal products.

At the same time I have in the past pitched fits because my coat was

hung next to a fur coat at a restaurant. I have a thing about dead

animals almost like a fear that the death could rub off on me. Anyway

about the clothes I think to some degree it is a matter of

perception. If there are any animal by products in my shoes it is a

very small amount. Though a great big fur coat is a monstrocity.

And I don't understand the idea of " fake " fur. Why on earth would

someone want to look like they have a dead animal hung on their back?

Though I do think fake leather shoes/ coat (pleather)may be more

durable than regular cloth shoes or clothes which may make better

since. I have mixed views on this topic.

Renee

June 24, 2003

OK, I've had enough--can we PLEASE stop this petty sniping?!

So long as you buy no new animal products after you become vegan, what's the

big deal? some people must wear more professional clothes to work--and just

getting a new job isn't always an option in this horrid economy; it took me

eight months to find a permanent job--and vegan professional clothes that

don't cost an arm and a leg are sometimes hard to come by. When your animal

skin products wear out, then find vegan alternatives. If someone wants to

give you grief--and believe me, there's an asshole or two in every office

who must pick on every aspect of your life--I'm certain you have your

response picked out. The next time someone gets on my butt because I'm not

perfect, I will be tempted to snarl, " And what are YOU doing to reduce

suffering? "

For those who choose to make a fresh start and who can buy all vegan wear,

fine. I like the friend swap idea, provided you have friends who wear the

same size as you. Even better is to give the clothing to a homeless shelter

where it will be put to good use.

As someone said before, being a perfect vegan is impossible. No matter what

we do, where we go, something we use will have resulted from the misery of

an animal. I'd like to think that as more people become vegan, there will

be fewer items made from animal corpses, and companies will have to find

alternatives.

Danielle

" This is your American dream

Everything is simple in the white and the black

You will never need to see the grey anymore

You will never have to be afraid. " --Everclear

----Original Message Follows----

" simonpjones " <simonpjones

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:26:00 +0100

Hi jo

If you cannot be sure that your clothes are 100% vegan then you should

not try to make other people feel bad when they have done nothing wrong.

Didn't Jesus say something about 'Let him who is without sin cast the first

stone'-

Am I casting stones..when all I was saying..that my view is I want to

avoid wearing animal wear..and that I could investigate more fully.. some

of the clothes I have. to see whether animal products have been used in the

process of manufacturing.

do you not judge meat eater?

---- Original Message -----

simonpjones

Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:03 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

-

Peter

Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:33 PM

Re: vegetarian meat eaters

You still haven't told us how you are sure that the shoes you

purchased *since turning vegan* are animal friendly. Your self-righteousnes

on this issue could smack of hypocrisy if you are *continuing* to purchase

goods not knowing whether or not they are made using dead animals!>

Don't misunderstand someone trying to encourage less animal wear with

self-rightousness. In all honestly I can't today be 100% sure the shoes or

any of the clopthes I wear are 100% vegan unless I investigate the full

manufacturing process.

Can you tell me when you consider a leather jacket or a pair of shoes

wore enough to be considered changing to a more humane clothes sense..that

you encourage.

They seem to last too long for me and my self-rightousness.

SP

In all honestly..I'm not 100% sure the shoes I have right now are

100% vegan...I would have to investigate further. can you

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June 26, 2003

Well said Danielle, enough already too many vegan police on this site one or two

cheif inspectors!

The Valley Vegan....