Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Tom > I don't think you can quite equate pesticide-resistant crops to a ravenous, poisonous introduced species, and as I've said, all of > our food crops are the result of genetic tinkering. There is a major difference between cross-breeding species which can cross breed and introducing man-made genes and genes from species which aren't supposed to cross-breed. Or are you suggesting that a fish would naturally breed with a tomato or a strawberry? Besides which - has it never occurred to you to wonder why our wheat is the second largest cause of allergy (after dairy) - could it be due to the fact that it shouldn't exist??? BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 I don't keep all the information I get from various anti-gm groups but if you are interested why don't you look for some on the internet, and they may have all the information you need on the Monarch butterfly. Jo Please explain! Tom ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 I think the genetic tinkering is actually inter-breeding, which is entirely different to the process, which I belive Fraggle outlined for us, which inserts specific genes into another plant dna in a haphazard manner. Jo I don't think you can quite equate pesticide-resistant crops to a ravenous, poisonous introduced species, and as I've said, all of our food crops are the result of genetic tinkering. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 In a message dated 5/17/03 9:49:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: I don't think you can quite equate pesticide-resistant crops to a ravenous, poisonous introduced species, and as I've said, all of our food crops are the result of genetic tinkering. no they are not there is a grand canyon of difference between breeding something with traits we desire, and shooting something with errant DNA from a totally different species, totally different genus.....brocoli is a member of the cabbage family..we have bred it for the flowers..other members of the same family we have bred for leaves, etc..but..THOSE TRAITS WERE ALREADY THERE!! we didn't do anything besides selectively encourage those traits we wanted...a gorilla gene would never ever ever enter into the equation..there is no way in God's little green earth that a flounder gene would end up in a tomato..... GMO are NOTHING like selective breeding... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 In a message dated 5/19/03 5:52:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: How do the pesticide genes kill the butterfly? Tom they genetically engineered plants like Corn to produce Bt( a natural "pesticide") in all of their cells... the caterpillar bites the plant, it dies..the butterfly lands on the plant and absorbs the pollen..it dies... Bt is a naturally occuring soil bacterium, bacillus thuringiensis(er how ever you spell it) for years, Bt was used as a safe alternative to chemical pesticides in crops..you dust the plants once er twice at the most, and you limit the amount of damage that the caterpillars wotever do.. since you aren't saoking the fields in it, the insects don't develop a resistance to it put, in Bt enhanced GMO crops..ever cell of the plant makes Bt, every second..andits a stronger toxin then wot is "natural" Dow Chemical has stated themselves that they expect BT to be rendered uselessin ten years er less, because insects will have developed resistance to it... monarch butterflies eat milkweed..which just happens to often to be found around corn fields(or cotton, which is another big Bt GMO crop)..when pollen from the corn(whcih blows miles and miles) drofts over the milkweed, the monarch caterpillars die... Bt GMO crops have been shown to kill lacewings ladybugs(lady birds to you english chaps) bees and a host of other insects... when a bacterium produced the toxin, it produced it in a long form, called a protoxin..this becomes dangerous only after it has been ingested into an insects digestive tract...the Bt producing crops already create this shortened active version..and in use quantities... it doesn't break down in the soil like normal Bt does who knows what it does to soil microbiology.... who knows wot happens when we ingest this concentrated form over and over again? what happens when this gene gets into the wild population of these crops forebearers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 Hi Tom > But nearly all domesticated species of plants and animals are so "unnatrual" in a sense, that they could not, in many cases, > survive without human intervention. I have a minor allergy to wheat, so know more about that than others - the standard wheat used would indeed die out without humans continuing to propagate it. The same is not true for spelt wheat which is perfectly natural, and still grown in a large number of places. I suspect the same is true of most crops. > And I thought the process of Genetic Engineering was anything but haphazard. I'm not a scientist, but I'm not totally convinced > that GE, as with other forms of genetic manipulation, is always an intrinsically bad thing. I think the question is more what it could be used for in the wrong hands. Perhaps there would be nothing wrong with GM crops if the motives of those producing them was to improve the health of the crops, or for some other noble reason... but, as you pointed out with the frog invasion in Australia, even the most well meaning of plans can go horribly wrong if all aspects aren't considered. Besides which, these technologies already *are* in the hands of the wrong people. Monsanto could well control the entire world's food supply in a matter of months if all governments just give in to having GM crops everywhere - and as I said before, I don't want my food supply controlled by a subsidiary of the company who ran Auschwitz. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 I disagree. I would support your right to eat gm crops as long as I don't have to and as long as they do not cause any harm to the environment. If you can prove that there are no ill-effects I would be interested to hear. Jo But nearly all domesticated species of plants and animals are so "unnatrual" in a sense, that they could not, in many cases, survive without human intervention. And I thought the process of Genetic Engineering was anything but haphazard. I'm not a scientist, but I'm not totally convinced that GE, as with other forms of genetic manipulation, is always an intrinsically bad thing. Any new technology can have drawbacks, but until I get more facts I'll reserve my judgement (feel free to enlighten me if you have more knowledge/training in this area). Tom - Heartwork Sunday, May 18, 2003 4:57 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism I think the genetic tinkering is actually inter-breeding, which is entirely different to the process, which I belive Fraggle outlined for us, which inserts specific genes into another plant dna in a haphazard manner. Jo I don't think you can quite equate pesticide-resistant crops to a ravenous, poisonous introduced species, and as I've said, all of our food crops are the result of genetic tinkering. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 Fragle - many thanks for that fantastic information. I shall keep it to aid me in the future. Jo they genetically engineered plants like Corn to produce Bt( a natural "pesticide") in all of their cells...the caterpillar bites the plant, it dies..the butterfly lands on the plant and absorbs the pollen..it dies...Bt is a naturally occuring soil bacterium, bacillus thuringiensis(er how ever you spell it)for years, Bt was used as a safe alternative to chemical pesticides in crops..you dust the plants once er twice at the most, and you limit the amount of damage that the caterpillars wotever do..since you aren't saoking the fields in it, the insects don't develop a resistance to itput, in Bt enhanced GMO crops..ever cell of the plant makes Bt, every second..andits a stronger toxin then wot is "natural"Dow Chemical has stated themselves that they expect BT to be rendered uselessin ten years er less, because insects will have developed resistance to it...monarch butterflies eat milkweed..which just happens to often to be found around corn fields(or cotton, which is another big Bt GMO crop)..when pollen from the corn(whcih blows miles and miles) drofts over the milkweed, the monarch caterpillars die...Bt GMO crops have been shown to kill lacewingsladybugs(lady birds to you english chaps) beesand a host of other insects...when a bacterium produced the toxin, it produced it in a long form, called a protoxin..this becomes dangerous only after it has been ingested into an insects digestive tract...the Bt producing crops already create this shortened active version..and in use quantities...it doesn't break down in the soil like normal Bt doeswho knows what it does to soil microbiology....who knows wot happens when we ingest this concentrated form over and over again?what happens when this gene gets into the wild population of these crops forebearers? ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2003 > How do the pesticide genes kill the butterfly? Now you're just asking silly questions. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 20, 2003 But nearly all domesticated species of plants and animals are so "unnatrual" in a sense, that they could not, in many cases, survive without human intervention. And I thought the process of Genetic Engineering was anything but haphazard. I'm not a scientist, but I'm not totally convinced that GE, as with other forms of genetic manipulation, is always an intrinsically bad thing. Any new technology can have drawbacks, but until I get more facts I'll reserve my judgement (feel free to enlighten me if you have more knowledge/training in this area). Tom - Heartwork Sunday, May 18, 2003 4:57 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism I think the genetic tinkering is actually inter-breeding, which is entirely different to the process, which I belive Fraggle outlined for us, which inserts specific genes into another plant dna in a haphazard manner. Jo I don't think you can quite equate pesticide-resistant crops to a ravenous, poisonous introduced species, and as I've said, all of our food crops are the result of genetic tinkering. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 20, 2003 How do the pesticide genes kill the butterfly? Tom - Peter Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:45 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Hi Tom > Please explain! Explain what - I thought is was fairly straight-forward - the monarch butterfly is virtually extinct because of the "pesticide genes" used in GM crops. What is there to explain? BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 20, 2003 all scientific discoveries/experiments can be bad in the wrong hands.........its a matter of ethics......eg medicine isnt usually inherently bad, but in the hands of the nazis, they used their curiosity to toture and kill people in order to make scientific progress....... catherine >"Peter" > > >Re: Re: reasons behind veganism >Mon, 19 May 2003 19:04:32 +0100 > >Hi Tom > > > But nearly all domesticated species of plants and animals are so "unnatrual" in a sense, that they could not, in many cases, > > survive without human intervention. > >I have a minor allergy to wheat, so know more about that than others - the standard wheat used would indeed die out without humans continuing to propagate it. The same is not true for spelt wheat which is perfectly natural, and still grown in a large number of places. I suspect the same is true of most crops. > > > And I thought the process of Genetic Engineering was anything but haphazard. I'm not a scientist, but I'm not totally convinced > > that GE, as with other forms of genetic manipulation, is always an intrinsically bad thing. > >I think the question is more what it could be used for in the wrong hands. Perhaps there would be nothing wrong with GM crops if the motives of those producing them was to improve the health of the crops, or for some other noble reason... but, as you pointed out with the frog invasion in Australia, even the most well meaning of plans can go horribly wrong if all aspects aren't considered. Besides which, these technologies already *are* in the hands of the wrong people. Monsanto could well control the entire world's food supply in a matter of months if all governments just give in to having GM crops everywhere - and as I said before, I don't want my food supply controlled by a subsidiary of the company who ran Auschwitz. > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Looking for cheaper internet access? Choose from one of these great offers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 20, 2003 Hi Catherine > all scientific discoveries/experiments can be bad in the wrong hands.........its a matter of ethics......eg medicine isnt usually > inherently bad, but in the hands of the nazis, they used their curiosity to toture and kill people in order to make scientific > progress....... It's a matter of scale....GM crops in the wrong hands could very rapidly wipe out all life on the planet. I am against nuclear weapons for exactly the same reason. And the real issue with GM crops is that they are in the hands of nazis already! Also, there is a far deeper issue with GM crops. When a medicine is used for bad effect, it does not mean that other good medicines can not be produced in the future. GM crops will wipe out all organic crops - when (if) it is finally discovered that they are dangerous....oh dear, too late, we've got nothing else. And don't forget, it took them 80 years to admit to the dangers of radiation, 400 to admit to the dangers of tobacco. The standard government / big business argument of "there's no proof that it's dangerous, so it must be OK" is a huge problem which needs to be addressed *before* we let them completely replace all organic crops with something which has no history! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2003 Thanks for attempting to explain this. Tom - EBbrewpunx Monday, May 19, 2003 10:43 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism In a message dated 5/19/03 5:52:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: How do the pesticide genes kill the butterfly? Tomthey genetically engineered plants like Corn to produce Bt( a natural "pesticide") in all of their cells...the caterpillar bites the plant, it dies..the butterfly lands on the plant and absorbs the pollen..it dies...Bt is a naturally occuring soil bacterium, bacillus thuringiensis(er how ever you spell it)for years, Bt was used as a safe alternative to chemical pesticides in crops..you dust the plants once er twice at the most, and you limit the amount of damage that the caterpillars wotever do..since you aren't saoking the fields in it, the insects don't develop a resistance to itput, in Bt enhanced GMO crops..ever cell of the plant makes Bt, every second..andits a stronger toxin then wot is "natural"Dow Chemical has stated themselves that they expect BT to be rendered uselessin ten years er less, because insects will have developed resistance to it...monarch butterflies eat milkweed..which just happens to often to be found around corn fields(or cotton, which is another big Bt GMO crop)..when pollen from the corn(whcih blows miles and miles) drofts over the milkweed, the monarch caterpillars die...Bt GMO crops have been shown to kill lacewingsladybugs(lady birds to you english chaps) beesand a host of other insects...when a bacterium produced the toxin, it produced it in a long form, called a protoxin..this becomes dangerous only after it has been ingested into an insects digestive tract...the Bt producing crops already create this shortened active version..and in use quantities...it doesn't break down in the soil like normal Bt doeswho knows what it does to soil microbiology....who knows wot happens when we ingest this concentrated form over and over again?what happens when this gene gets into the wild population of these crops forebearers? To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
