Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 I agree with everything Fraggle said, and would like to add, that we don't know if GM foods are vegan. no one tells us what genes are used to modify the foods. we could have fish oil genes in tomatoes which could even be dried and put into all sorts of vegan foods...endless 'what ifs' here, that must be stopped. I'll stick with Organic as well. ~shahara << a fully vegan burger to the masses, and > it > had some GM component like oil or something, so what? >> shahara lefay priestess poet vegan <A HREF= " TerraSoLuna/ " >terrasoluna.org</A> " There's the road to heaven, and there's the road to hell, and there? That's the road to Faerie. " - Thomas, the Rhymer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 4:49:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: So, for example, if someone could successfully market a fully vegan burger to the masses, and it had some GM component like oil or something, so what? If millions of lives could be saved, health concerns over something that might, just might be not be as healthy as other alternatives is not worth getting steamed up over. it isn't that they just might be less healthy, er cause allergies.. we are talking when you get down to it, the wholesale plundering of the worlds genome, the ownership and patents of life itself and worse..we are talking about unleashing things that we can not forsee..not just cuz you shouldn't mix the genes of a flounder with yer tomato... there was a german company a few years back, who were trying to find a way to reduse garbage quickly, and produce something useful at the same time..and they developed a bacteria which performed better then they had hoped...the bacterium broke down wood chips, lumber by products, corn stalks, and the like to produce ethanol, a possible fuel. plus, the waste products could then be added back to the soil, and you'd have a zero pollution system, everyone would win! it worked wonders! they were about to move to field tests in oregon, when a doctoral student decied to test the post processed waste..he added it to regular soil and planted seeds every single seedling died why? because that little bacterium worked tooo well.it out competed natural fungi and other organisms in the living soil, which make it possible for plants to take in nutrients....the soil was effectively deep, and nothing would grow in it now, imagine if that had been released..imagine that in your garden, in the farm that grows your food, in the meadow, in that grassy strip along the freeway, the forest down the road, the grasslands of africa, etc and so forth... GMO is forever....once its loose, you can't just go "oops" and start over if something goes wrong..nature isn't a closed system..... fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Yeah, you have a point there; I've not seen that particular Greenpeace flyer. What boneheads! Even if it is " organic, " animal enslavement--excuse me, farming (rolls eyes)--causes far more environmental damage than any of the other crap Greenpeace protests. Thing is, we don't know how GM will affect humans, and there could be great adverse affects; a number of people became ill after eating tortillas (I think) made with Starlink corn. There is also the potential of GM seeds, spores contaminating other crops when the wind blows. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Mon, 12 May 2003 20:34:01 -0700 Hi Danielle, The only purpose of veganism, at least as far as I'm concerned, is to boycott goods made with unneccessary cruelty. I don't like the idea of mixing monkey genes with my tomatoes or whatever either, but more from a personal preference than it makes a big difference to the monkeys. I respect people's concerns with GM foods, but I believe we have to get our priorities right: veganism or the closest thing to it first. What is our biggest problem? The cruelty, for most of us I'm assuming. So, for example, if someone could successfully market a fully vegan burger to the masses, and it had some GM component like oil or something, so what? If millions of lives could be saved, health concerns over something that might, just might be not be as healthy as other alternatives is not worth getting steamed up over. What offended me over that Greenpeace booklet was the juxtoposition over the picture of the " healthy " organic beef cow contentedly grazing, and the photo of the (ridiculous looking) boilersuit-clad Greenpeacers thrusting the " toxic " GM soybeans at the camera. These people are the enemy, in my book. Not personally (sorry if you belong to Greenpeace), but organisationally and ethically. If we're going to get up on our high horse and tell people what they should and shouldn't eat, let's stick to the essentials - stop, or at least reduce eating animals. Period. 'Cause if you say something like " go vegan " , then " oh, no, you can't eat those vegan biscuits because they have GM shortening in them " , etc. etc. people will run a mile. Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:09 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > I can concede the point of avoiding the big stuff--meat, milk/cream, eggs, > gelatin, lard, lanolin, silk, bee products, carmine, blah, blah, blah, and > letting the smaller things work out. I won't buy refined sugar, but if a > product has it, I don't worry terribly about it. And you're right about > organic meat, milk, eggs still being organic cruelty. Can you say > " greenwashing, " boys and girls? Here in the US--and in other countries, I'm > sure--free-range is so diluted as to be meaningless. However, I would > rather not have animal genes in my veggies, thankyouverymuch. It's one > thing to create a hybrid of two plants to create a new variety--creating a > hybrid mushroom or tomato, for instance out of two types of mushrooms or > tomatoes--it's another to modify plants to resist the damaging effects of > pesticides and herbicides or put fish genes in my beans. That would defeat > the purpose of veganism, don't you think? > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Sun, 11 May 2003 23:56:45 -0700 > > I much prefer to give a product a miss even if it has the minutest amount of > animal crap in it, so I fully empathise with you. Also in my newsletter, I > always include a " Product News " section highlighting good vegan > alternatives. What I think is destructive, however, is people who, for > example, eat soy cheese with a little bit of casein in it, being denounced > as non-vegans, or the anti-christ or whatever, when in reality, if everyone > only ate soycheese that would decimate the dairy industry. I believe it's > important to distinguish between those miniscule additives that we'd > naturally rather avoid, but don't ultimately prop up any animal abuse > industry on their own, and the main animal products such as milk, eggs, > cheese, etc... Plus, as far as GM goes, it doesn't rate with me, as long as > there's no cruelty involved. Veggo groups here enthusiastically promote an > anti-GMO Greenpiss, sorry Greenpeace leaflet encouraging consumers to > demand organic " meat, milk and eggs " , as if organic GM-free dead animal is > somehow ok...yeah, right... > > Tom > - > " Heartwork " <Heartwork > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 12:20 PM > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > Tom > > > > I disagree. All vegans I know do not want to eat any animal, so will > > boycott these items, no matter how difficult it is to scan labels. > McVities > > biscuits are now made using vegetable fat instead of lard, mainly because > so > > many people stopped buying them and wrote to them asking why they were > not > > vegetarian. What you buy makes a very big difference to what is > available, > > especially if you let companies know why you are not buying - GM products > is > > an example. > > > > Jo > > - > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:51 AM > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just > ate > > > roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and > not > > > killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. > If > > > you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. > > that's > > > fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just > > > doesn't rate. The main animal products like meat, eggs, dairy products, > > and > > > yes, commercial honey, are the ones to target. If no one ate these, all > > the > > > shitty little by-products we have to scan for would not be economically > > > viable, and therefore exist. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > - > > > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > > > > > Friday, May 02, 2003 8:50 AM > > > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself > > > > vegan you make > > > > > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, > > > > frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on > > > > land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry > > > > and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? > > > > > > > > At least i'm honest! > > > > > > > > Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years > > > > to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for > > > > vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), > > > > publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book > > > > for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the > > > > Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, > > > > garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture > > > > circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for > > > > me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go > > > > into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case > > > > I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think > > > > outside the vegan box on some issues. > > > > > > > > Cheers Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to > - > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 1:15:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Heartwork writes: Well said Fraggle. We buy almost all organic food. It's more expensive but not in the long run. I think it is harder in the States though. depends..farmers markets are jammed with organic produce, and you get to see the farmer er somone close to that level and talk them about the stuff then there are a myriad of "alterno" and natural foods outlets here... then you fall to the big guys, like safeway and albertson's, and at least here in the Bay Area, they generally have some organic stuff yes, it can be a bit of a struggle and sometimes it doesn't seem to add up, but i try my durndest and keep up as best i can,.. dang that grocery bill can be expensive tho! thought about joining one of the many CSA's in the area, but, i always think about it when i'm in severe financial straights, and the thought of getting a box of turnips and rutabagas always scares me off... cheers fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 i've a great stew recipie for these vegies, i'll type it up later (in Wisconsin, its piles of kale and beets that we get tired of, lol) << and the thought of getting a box of turnips and rutabagas always scares me off >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Well said Fraggle. We buy almost all organic food. It's more expensive but not in the long run. I think it is harder in the States though. Jo well, lets just say tinkering with the genepool is FOREVER!!!!and ever..once the genie gets out of the bottle, you can't put it back..they are trying to owe and copywrote life itself, and these are folks who can't seem to balance their own books er stay out of scandals er the like...once something that we add into the genepool is released, it spreads, and then there is no way to ever get it out..what would happen if they continued with the terminator gene research? and they released it in say, corn ..new improved fast growing sweet corn, with RX17 geoplasm addedum series 137..you'll luv it...and you plant it..and series 137 just happens to be the one that has a terminator gene, meaning, it doesn't reproduce, all seeds are sterile, you can't save the ssed for the next year...corn pollen travels for several miles...and guess wot, you just doomed everyone's corn crop in a 10 mile block, as the corn pollenates yer neighbors..now, who cares right, you may ask..so, they have to buy new seed...from monsanto of course...what about the folks the world over who save seed, for generation upon generation..all that will be gonewe don't know wot could happen when we tinker with genes...we always picture scientists carefully inserting DNA into other cells, and all that,.....its not like that at all..some goombah in a lad has either the microscopic equivalent of a shotgun and blows the gene sequences into the cell and waits to see wot happens(they have aims and goals, and kinda try and all, but, ,...) er they add the genetic sequences they want to a virus to piggyback it into a cell and go from there...(breaking the barriers the cell has set up to prevent this sort of thing, meaning this gene package could easily spread to other species as well)i agree wholeheartedly that the raising of animals for meat, to produce milk for us, to "farm" fur and the like is horrid, its destructive, its cruel, it uses tons of resources, its polluting, etc..but, to downplay GMO is frightening to me to say the very least...I've stopped eating(er at least tried to) all canola and corn products that aren't organic..which is getting harder and harder, as everything has soy flour, corn meal, corn syrup, etc in it nowadays.... ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 I remember hearing about that - very nearly a catastrophe! Jo there was a german company a few years back, who were trying to find a way to reduse garbage quickly, and produce something useful at the same time..and they developed a bacteria which performed better then they had hoped...the bacterium broke down wood chips, lumber by products, corn stalks, and the like to produce ethanol, a possible fuel. plus, the waste products could then be added back to the soil, and you'd have a zero pollution system, everyone would win! it worked wonders! they were about to move to field tests in oregon, when a doctoral student decied to test the post processed waste..he added it to regular soil and planted seedsevery single seedling diedwhy? because that little bacterium worked tooo well.it out competed natural fungi and other organisms in the living soil, which make it possible for plants to take in nutrients....the soil was effectively deep, and nothing would grow in itnow, imagine if that had been released..imagine that in your garden, in the farm that grows your food, in the meadow, in that grassy strip along the freeway, the forest down the road, the grasslands of africa, etc and so forth...GMO is forever....once its loose, you can't just go "oops" and start over if something goes wrong..nature isn't a closed system..... ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 Luckily, there are several organic stores in the Washington, DC, area, and if all else fails, go to Whole Foods, who seems to be carrying less and less organic produce (grrr). I'm really disappointed that this local co-op decided NOT to adopt a vegetarian mission statement. I'll be really upset if the location I use starts carrying meat (besides meat-based pet foods) even if it would only be in the frozen foods. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- EBbrewpunx Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Mon, 12 May 2003 16:23:10 EDT In a message dated 5/12/03 1:15:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Heartwork writes: > > Well said Fraggle. We buy almost all organic food. It's more expensive > but not in the long run. I think it is harder in the States though. > depends..farmers markets are jammed with organic produce, and you get to see the farmer er somone close to that level and talk them about the stuff then there are a myriad of " alterno " and natural foods outlets here... then you fall to the big guys, like safeway and albertson's, and at least here in the Bay Area, they generally have some organic stuff yes, it can be a bit of a struggle and sometimes it doesn't seem to add up, but i try my durndest and keep up as best i can,.. dang that grocery bill can be expensive tho! thought about joining one of the many CSA's in the area, but, i always think about it when i'm in severe financial straights, and the thought of getting a box of turnips and rutabagas always scares me off... cheers fraggle _______________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 Hi Danielle, The only purpose of veganism, at least as far as I'm concerned, is to boycott goods made with unneccessary cruelty. I don't like the idea of mixing monkey genes with my tomatoes or whatever either, but more from a personal preference than it makes a big difference to the monkeys. I respect people's concerns with GM foods, but I believe we have to get our priorities right: veganism or the closest thing to it first. What is our biggest problem? The cruelty, for most of us I'm assuming. So, for example, if someone could successfully market a fully vegan burger to the masses, and it had some GM component like oil or something, so what? If millions of lives could be saved, health concerns over something that might, just might be not be as healthy as other alternatives is not worth getting steamed up over. What offended me over that Greenpeace booklet was the juxtoposition over the picture of the " healthy " organic beef cow contentedly grazing, and the photo of the (ridiculous looking) boilersuit-clad Greenpeacers thrusting the " toxic " GM soybeans at the camera. These people are the enemy, in my book. Not personally (sorry if you belong to Greenpeace), but organisationally and ethically. If we're going to get up on our high horse and tell people what they should and shouldn't eat, let's stick to the essentials - stop, or at least reduce eating animals. Period. 'Cause if you say something like " go vegan " , then " oh, no, you can't eat those vegan biscuits because they have GM shortening in them " , etc. etc. people will run a mile. Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:09 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > I can concede the point of avoiding the big stuff--meat, milk/cream, eggs, > gelatin, lard, lanolin, silk, bee products, carmine, blah, blah, blah, and > letting the smaller things work out. I won't buy refined sugar, but if a > product has it, I don't worry terribly about it. And you're right about > organic meat, milk, eggs still being organic cruelty. Can you say > " greenwashing, " boys and girls? Here in the US--and in other countries, I'm > sure--free-range is so diluted as to be meaningless. However, I would > rather not have animal genes in my veggies, thankyouverymuch. It's one > thing to create a hybrid of two plants to create a new variety--creating a > hybrid mushroom or tomato, for instance out of two types of mushrooms or > tomatoes--it's another to modify plants to resist the damaging effects of > pesticides and herbicides or put fish genes in my beans. That would defeat > the purpose of veganism, don't you think? > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Sun, 11 May 2003 23:56:45 -0700 > > I much prefer to give a product a miss even if it has the minutest amount of > animal crap in it, so I fully empathise with you. Also in my newsletter, I > always include a " Product News " section highlighting good vegan > alternatives. What I think is destructive, however, is people who, for > example, eat soy cheese with a little bit of casein in it, being denounced > as non-vegans, or the anti-christ or whatever, when in reality, if everyone > only ate soycheese that would decimate the dairy industry. I believe it's > important to distinguish between those miniscule additives that we'd > naturally rather avoid, but don't ultimately prop up any animal abuse > industry on their own, and the main animal products such as milk, eggs, > cheese, etc... Plus, as far as GM goes, it doesn't rate with me, as long as > there's no cruelty involved. Veggo groups here enthusiastically promote an > anti-GMO Greenpiss, sorry Greenpeace leaflet encouraging consumers to > demand organic " meat, milk and eggs " , as if organic GM-free dead animal is > somehow ok...yeah, right... > > Tom > - > " Heartwork " <Heartwork > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 12:20 PM > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > Tom > > > > I disagree. All vegans I know do not want to eat any animal, so will > > boycott these items, no matter how difficult it is to scan labels. > McVities > > biscuits are now made using vegetable fat instead of lard, mainly because > so > > many people stopped buying them and wrote to them asking why they were > not > > vegetarian. What you buy makes a very big difference to what is > available, > > especially if you let companies know why you are not buying - GM products > is > > an example. > > > > Jo > > - > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:51 AM > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just > ate > > > roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and > not > > > killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. > If > > > you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. > > that's > > > fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just > > > doesn't rate. The main animal products like meat, eggs, dairy products, > > and > > > yes, commercial honey, are the ones to target. If no one ate these, all > > the > > > shitty little by-products we have to scan for would not be economically > > > viable, and therefore exist. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > - > > > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > > > > > Friday, May 02, 2003 8:50 AM > > > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself > > > > vegan you make > > > > > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, > > > > frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on > > > > land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry > > > > and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? > > > > > > > > At least i'm honest! > > > > > > > > Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years > > > > to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for > > > > vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), > > > > publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book > > > > for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the > > > > Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, > > > > garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture > > > > circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for > > > > me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go > > > > into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case > > > > I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think > > > > outside the vegan box on some issues. > > > > > > > > Cheers Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to > - > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 4:58:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: Luckily, there are several organic stores in the Washington, DC, area, and if all else fails, go to Whole Foods, who seems to be carrying less and less organic produce (grrr). thats not good our local whole foods carries gobs of organic stuff...... and another local store, berkeley bowl, has even more..tho, that place drives me nuts... fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 In a message dated 5/13/03 4:33:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: Why does Berkeley Bowl drive you nuts? Well, on Saturdays, there is a farmers market a few blocks away from my home. If I can drag my butt out of bed early enough in the ayem, I can find some nice stuff. it just does... something about the people..both staff and customers...rude and the like... lotsa vegetables and fruits tho... there are lotsa farmers markets here..i just don't get to them as often as i use to...there are aty least 3 in oakland, 2 in berkeley, 1 in alameda..etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 Why does Berkeley Bowl drive you nuts? Well, on Saturdays, there is a farmers market a few blocks away from my home. If I can drag my butt out of bed early enough in the ayem, I can find some nice stuff. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- EBbrewpunx Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Tue, 13 May 2003 19:09:14 EDT In a message dated 5/12/03 4:58:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: > > Luckily, there are several organic stores in the Washington, DC, area, and > if all else fails, go to Whole Foods, who seems to be carrying less and > less > organic produce (grrr). thats not good our local whole foods carries gobs of organic stuff...... and another local store, berkeley bowl, has even more..tho, that place drives me nuts... fraggle _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 you just proved my point tom they released the cane toad thinking it would do great things and be safe..and Oz is still dealing with the hidden problems of this... and these are just toads..look at the damge they cause.... now, imagine changing something gemetic code...this is forever....and you can;t just lock it in a box and pretend it won't affect everything.... cheers fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 try a farmers market.. i think too many folks worry about "convience" and not about the consequences that result from such conviences... think about where yer food comes from... how bloody hard is it to eat a locally grown apple fer bacchus' sake, ya know?? to me, just my opinion, consumerism and the like are as big a problem as factory farmed animals..it all leads to mass destruction of the environment, pollution, over use of resources, etc... convience foods are usually loaded with chemicals and presevatives, over packeged, shipped a quadrillion miles..and we call this convient??? strange world cheers fraggle In a message dated 5/14/03 4:35:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: All I'm saying is, GM may be a concern, but it has nothing to do with why I'm a vegan. Further to that, most people go for cheap, reliable, accessible food sources. Expecting them not to go to supermarkets, and instead seek out a little organic shop somewhere, pay top dollar for what isn't always the best looking produce, and where they often can't get everything they want, is just not being realistic. I don't do it, and frankly I can't afford to. If vegan/veggo food can't be sold to the mass market, similar to what the late (and great) Linda McCartney tried to do with her convenience meals, forget about slaughterhouses and factory farms going away. I see too many groups focussing on the supply (farmers) and Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 i am new to thinking about gm stuff, so i hope i dont offend anyone, i think fish genes in my veg would worry me......but enabling crops to be more effective in areas of poverty cant be denied as an advantage, who aare we to argue, when we live in lands of relative plenty?? catherine >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Re: reasons behind veganism >Wed, 14 May 2003 21:33:53 -0700 > >All I'm saying is, GM may be a concern, but it has nothing to do with why I'm a vegan. Further to that, most people go for cheap, reliable, accessible food sources. Expecting them not to go to supermarkets, and instead seek out a little organic shop somewhere, pay top dollar for what isn't always the best looking produce, and where they often can't get everything they want, is just not being realistic. I don't do it, and frankly I can't afford to. If vegan/veggo food can't be sold to the mass market, similar to what the late (and great) Linda McCartney tried to do with her convenience meals, forget about slaughterhouses and factory farms going away. I see too many groups focussing on the supply (farmers) and targeting politicians (mostly self-serving people who know vegans don't represent any sort of constituency worth worrying about), when they should only be targeting the demand side - ie. consumers. How can we get them to change their dietary habits to more cruelty-free ones? If we can do that successfully, we might start to win. > >Tom > - > EBbrewpunx > > Monday, May 12, 2003 8:09 AM > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > In a message dated 5/12/03 4:49:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: > > So, for example, if > someone could successfully market a fully vegan burger to the masses, and it > had some GM component like oil or something, so what? > > > well, lets just say tinkering with the genepool is FOREVER!!!! > and ever.. > once the genie gets out of the bottle, you can't put it back.. > they are trying to owe and copywrote life itself, and these are folks who can't seem to balance their own books er stay out of scandals er the like... > > once something that we add into the genepool is released, it spreads, and then there is no way to ever get it out.. > what would happen if they continued with the terminator gene research? and they released it in say, corn ..new improved fast growing sweet corn, with RX17 geoplasm addedum series 137..you'll luv it... > and you plant it..and series 137 just happens to be the one that has a terminator gene, meaning, it doesn't reproduce, all seeds are sterile, you can't save the ssed for the next year...corn pollen travels for several miles...and guess wot, you just doomed everyone's corn crop in a 10 mile block, as the corn pollenates yer neighbors..now, who cares right, you may ask..so, they have to buy new seed...from monsanto of course...what about the folks the world over who save seed, for generation upon generation..all that will be gone > we don't know wot could happen when we tinker with genes...we always picture scientists carefully inserting DNA into other cells, and all that,.....its not like that at all..some goombah in a lad has either the microscopic equivalent of a shotgun and blows the gene sequences into the cell and waits to see wot happens(they have aims and goals, and kinda try and all, but, ,...) er they add the genetic sequences they want to a virus to piggyback it into a cell and go from there...(breaking the barriers the cell has set up to prevent this sort of thing, meaning this gene package could easily spread to other species as well) > i agree wholeheartedly that the raising of animals for meat, to produce milk for us, to "farm" fur and the like is horrid, its destructive, its cruel, it uses tons of resources, its polluting, etc..but, to downplay GMO is frightening to me to say the very least... > I've stopped eating(er at least tried to) all canola and corn products that aren't organic..which is getting harder and harder, as everything has soy flour, corn meal, corn syrup, etc in it nowadays.... > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 In a message dated 5/14/03 5:41:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cait2 writes: i am new to thinking about gm stuff, so i hope i dont offend anyone, i think fish genes in my veg would worry me......but enabling crops to be more effective in areas of poverty cant be denied as an advantage, who aare we to argue, when we live in lands of relative plenty?? but... they are not enhancing crops so they can be more efficient not one..not one crop has been produced which is "healthier" or which can grow under adverse conditions.. they are just ways for the chemical corps and related industries to make more money...most of the GMO's are developed so farmersa can spray roundup all the frickin time and not worry about killin off their canola crop..er they have produced plants which produce bt all the time, which will a. kill off things like butterflies b. make pests more resistant to bt in the future besides...we can grow enough food right now..instead of focusing on how we can develop a new mater plant which we can ship across the world, how baout we develop sustainable agriculture? permaculture? hows about we stop growing corn and like just to feed it to cattle? stop dumping petrochemicals on the land..stop polluting everything we touch... hows about er encourage those in other nations to ghrow their won food, instead of harping on them to grow cash crops to export, so they can pay off exhorbitant loans and then have to import food? hows about organics instead of pesticides and fungicides and countless other things we happily dose on every square inch of land the world over..stuff that sits in the environment and builds up? how about helpin local folks grow stuff that grows well were they live and using techniques that work there..as opposed to making everyone strip the earrh and grow huge monocrop factory farms were everything is just another commodoty.... maybe its just me *wanders away scratchin head* fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 Hi Tom > All I'm saying is, GM may be a concern, but it has nothing to do with why I'm a vegan. Considering that at least one species of butterfly is now on the brink of extinction in the UK purely because of GM crops, do you not feel that GM should be a concern for vegans? BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 Hi Catherine > i am new to thinking about gm stuff, so i hope i dont offend anyone, i think fish genes in my veg would worry me......but > enabling crops to be more effective in areas of poverty cant be denied as an advantage, who aare we to argue, when we live > in lands of relative plenty?? Britain alone has the resources to produce enough organic food to feed the world's population three times over. We don't need GM for that. GM is designed to keep the poor areas poor by using tactics such as terminator genes, and to create a complete world monopoly of food supplies in the hands of biotech companies such as Monsanto. Personally, I'd rather *not* have the company that ran Auschwitz controlling my food supplies! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 14, 2003 Catherine America and Britain could feed the rest of the world, and enable the rest of the world to feed themselves without any gm crops. The reason gm crops are being invented is to give a couple of multi national companies future power over the world's food supply. The governments and companies tell us these lies so that we think it is a good idea. I always try to think 'Why do they want me to think this???' Jo i am new to thinking about gm stuff, so i hope i dont offend anyone, i think fish genes in my veg would worry me......but enabling crops to be more effective in areas of poverty cant be denied as an advantage, who aare we to argue, when we live in lands of relative plenty?? ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 15, 2003 And maybe if people STOPPED EATING MEAT, the grain that feeds these poor animals could be used to feed the hungry. When 70 percent of the grain grown in the US gets funneled through animals--very inefficient, really--that's a big fricking problem. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- EBbrewpunx Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Wed, 14 May 2003 12:44:36 EDT In a message dated 5/14/03 5:41:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cait2 writes: > > > i am new to thinking about gm stuff, so i hope i dont offend anyone, i > think fish genes in my veg would worry me......but enabling crops to be > more effective in areas of poverty cant be denied as an advantage, who aare > we to argue, when we live in lands of relative plenty?? > > > > but... they are not enhancing crops so they can be more efficient not one..not one crop has been produced which is " healthier " or which can grow under adverse conditions.. they are just ways for the chemical corps and related industries to make more money...most of the GMO's are developed so farmersa can spray roundup all the frickin time and not worry about killin off their canola crop..er they have produced plants which produce bt all the time, which will a. kill off things like butterflies b. make pests more resistant to bt in the future besides...we can grow enough food right now..instead of focusing on how we can develop a new mater plant which we can ship across the world, how baout we develop sustainable agriculture? permaculture? hows about we stop growing corn and like just to feed it to cattle? stop dumping petrochemicals on the land..stop polluting everything we touch... hows about er encourage those in other nations to ghrow their won food, instead of harping on them to grow cash crops to export, so they can pay off exhorbitant loans and then have to import food? hows about organics instead of pesticides and fungicides and countless other things we happily dose on every square inch of land the world over..stuff that sits in the environment and builds up? how about helpin local folks grow stuff that grows well were they live and using techniques that work there..as opposed to making everyone strip the earrh and grow huge monocrop factory farms were everything is just another commodoty.... maybe its just me *wanders away scratchin head* fraggle _______________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 15, 2003 Unfortunately, most of this GM stuff is a lot of what if?? Which may (or may not) be correct, but right here in Oz something called the Cane Toad (released in 1935 in Queensland to eat the sugar cane beetle, which it never did) is doing far more damage than any rogue corn crop. The cane toad is poisonous, and not only eats anything it can fit in its gob, it kills any potential predators such as Kookaburras and Goannas who try to eat it. Currently it is taking over our World Heritage listed area in Kakadu (Northern Territory), where there are several irreplaceable native species already feeling the pinch. Focus on real problems, right here and now, before a supposed genetic nightmare (anyway, all factory farmed animals and most companion animals would not exist but for human gene-tampering, nor all the grass super-crops we have such as wheat, barley, corn etc.). Tom - EBbrewpunx Monday, May 12, 2003 8:20 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism In a message dated 5/12/03 4:49:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: So, for example, ifsomeone could successfully market a fully vegan burger to the masses, and ithad some GM component like oil or something, so what? If millions of livescould be saved, health concerns over something that might, just might be notbe as healthy as other alternatives is not worth getting steamed up over.it isn't that they just might be less healthy, er cause allergies..we are talking when you get down to it, the wholesale plundering of the worlds genome, the ownership and patents of life itselfand worse..we are talking about unleashing things that we can not forsee..not just cuz you shouldn't mix the genes of a flounder with yer tomato...there was a german company a few years back, who were trying to find a way to reduse garbage quickly, and produce something useful at the same time..and they developed a bacteria which performed better then they had hoped...the bacterium broke down wood chips, lumber by products, corn stalks, and the like to produce ethanol, a possible fuel. plus, the waste products could then be added back to the soil, and you'd have a zero pollution system, everyone would win! it worked wonders! they were about to move to field tests in oregon, when a doctoral student decied to test the post processed waste..he added it to regular soil and planted seedsevery single seedling diedwhy? because that little bacterium worked tooo well.it out competed natural fungi and other organisms in the living soil, which make it possible for plants to take in nutrients....the soil was effectively deep, and nothing would grow in itnow, imagine if that had been released..imagine that in your garden, in the farm that grows your food, in the meadow, in that grassy strip along the freeway, the forest down the road, the grasslands of africa, etc and so forth...GMO is forever....once its loose, you can't just go "oops" and start over if something goes wrong..nature isn't a closed system.....fraggle To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 15, 2003 All I'm saying is, GM may be a concern, but it has nothing to do with why I'm a vegan. Further to that, most people go for cheap, reliable, accessible food sources. Expecting them not to go to supermarkets, and instead seek out a little organic shop somewhere, pay top dollar for what isn't always the best looking produce, and where they often can't get everything they want, is just not being realistic. I don't do it, and frankly I can't afford to. If vegan/veggo food can't be sold to the mass market, similar to what the late (and great) Linda McCartney tried to do with her convenience meals, forget about slaughterhouses and factory farms going away. I see too many groups focussing on the supply (farmers) and targeting politicians (mostly self-serving people who know vegans don't represent any sort of constituency worth worrying about), when they should only be targeting the demand side - ie. consumers. How can we get them to change their dietary habits to more cruelty-free ones? If we can do that successfully, we might start to win. Tom - EBbrewpunx Monday, May 12, 2003 8:09 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism In a message dated 5/12/03 4:49:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: So, for example, ifsomeone could successfully market a fully vegan burger to the masses, and ithad some GM component like oil or something, so what?well, lets just say tinkering with the genepool is FOREVER!!!!and ever..once the genie gets out of the bottle, you can't put it back..they are trying to owe and copywrote life itself, and these are folks who can't seem to balance their own books er stay out of scandals er the like...once something that we add into the genepool is released, it spreads, and then there is no way to ever get it out..what would happen if they continued with the terminator gene research? and they released it in say, corn ..new improved fast growing sweet corn, with RX17 geoplasm addedum series 137..you'll luv it...and you plant it..and series 137 just happens to be the one that has a terminator gene, meaning, it doesn't reproduce, all seeds are sterile, you can't save the ssed for the next year...corn pollen travels for several miles...and guess wot, you just doomed everyone's corn crop in a 10 mile block, as the corn pollenates yer neighbors..now, who cares right, you may ask..so, they have to buy new seed...from monsanto of course...what about the folks the world over who save seed, for generation upon generation..all that will be gonewe don't know wot could happen when we tinker with genes...we always picture scientists carefully inserting DNA into other cells, and all that,.....its not like that at all..some goombah in a lad has either the microscopic equivalent of a shotgun and blows the gene sequences into the cell and waits to see wot happens(they have aims and goals, and kinda try and all, but, ,...) er they add the genetic sequences they want to a virus to piggyback it into a cell and go from there...(breaking the barriers the cell has set up to prevent this sort of thing, meaning this gene package could easily spread to other species as well)i agree wholeheartedly that the raising of animals for meat, to produce milk for us, to "farm" fur and the like is horrid, its destructive, its cruel, it uses tons of resources, its polluting, etc..but, to downplay GMO is frightening to me to say the very least...I've stopped eating(er at least tried to) all canola and corn products that aren't organic..which is getting harder and harder, as everything has soy flour, corn meal, corn syrup, etc in it nowadays.... To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 17, 2003 Please explain! Tom - Peter Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:07 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Hi Tom > All I'm saying is, GM may be a concern, but it has nothing to do with why I'm a vegan. Considering that at least one species of butterfly is now on the brink of extinction in the UK purely because of GM crops, do you not feel that GM should be a concern for vegans? BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 17, 2003 I don't think you can quite equate pesticide-resistant crops to a ravenous, poisonous introduced species, and as I've said, all of our food crops are the result of genetic tinkering. Tom - EBbrewpunx Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:04 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism you just proved my point tomthey released the cane toad thinking it would do great things and be safe..and Oz is still dealing with the hidden problems of this...and these are just toads..look at the damge they cause....now, imagine changing something gemetic code...this is forever....and you can;t just lock it in a box and pretend it won't affect everything....cheersfraggle To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Tom > Please explain! Explain what - I thought is was fairly straight-forward - the monarch butterfly is virtually extinct because of the "pesticide genes" used in GM crops. What is there to explain? BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
