reasons behind veganism

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/30/03 11:35:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Snowbow writes:

 

They are :-(

I know there's lots more than this, but the two things that I know of are....

1. The Queen Bee has her wings clipped so she can't fly away to form a hive in a new area.

2. The honey which is taken is intended to make baby bees healthy - it is replaces by a sweet substance which is completely lacking in the necessary nutrients, so the baby bees get ill and don't grow into healthy adult bees.

I'm sure there's much more, but that's enough for me!

 

 

bees are also killed off in t he winter in cold climates....since the food the bees need is honey, most would die of starvation come the return of the cold, so, a good portion of the hive is often put to death, only keepin the queen and a few workiers, so, she is forced to start over again come spring...

[Guest guest]

I am new to veganism so I have been reading alot on the web. I have heard there are alot of differene resaons for veganism like health reson, ect. I found this article and thought you might enjoy it

 

 

Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals (Stepaniak).(If you are thinking to yourself, "But I'm a vegan for health reasons" or "I'm a vegan for environmental reasons," please reconsider how you label yourself. Unlike the word vegetarian, the word vegan specifically implies moral concern for animals, and this concern extends to all areas of life, not just diet. If you do not believe in animal equality, please consider referring to yourself as someone who doesn't eat animal products or as one who follows a plant-based diet. Additionally, anyone who eats honey, yet refers to herself as a vegan, makes life difficult for other vegans--it's like having someone who eats fish and calls herself a vegetarian. When a vegetarian comes along, it is much harder for her to explain that fish is not acceptable for vegetarians.)

 

Also, I have not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was wondering what the animal rights issues might be with honey bees? Are they mistreated?

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Guest guest]

Hi Surya

 

> Also, I have not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was wondering what the animal rights issues might be with

> honey bees? Are they mistreated?

 

They are :-(

 

I know there's lots more than this, but the two things that I know of are....

 

1. The Queen Bee has her wings clipped so she can't fly away to form a hive in a new area.

2. The honey which is taken is intended to make baby bees healthy - it is replaces by a sweet substance which is completely lacking in the necessary nutrients, so the baby bees get ill and don't grow into healthy adult bees.

 

I'm sure there's much more, but that's enough for me!

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

The honey--bee puke--is the bees' food during the winter. Sometimes, during

the collection process, the beekeepers kill bees. They also clip the wings

of the queen bee to prevent her traveling. They've also been known to burn

the hives during unproductive months.

 

Which makes me feel a little bit guilty about buying Tom's of Maine

decongestant syrup--finding a decent cough and cold medicine without honey

is tough, but I swear it makes me feel better. If I could find a natural

product without honey, I would (provided I didn't have to spend an arm and a

leg to do so).

 

Danielle

 

 

 

" You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

Surya Burdick <californiagnomes

 

 

reasons behind veganism

Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:59:12 -0700 (PDT)

 

I am new to veganism so I have been reading alot on the web. I have heard

there are alot of differene resaons for veganism like health reson, ect. I

found this article and thought you might enjoy it Veganism is a way of

living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the

animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the

practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of

flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and

encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in

part from animals (Stepaniak).(If you are thinking to yourself, " But I'm a

vegan for health reasons " or " I'm a vegan for environmental reasons, " please

reconsider how you label yourself. Unlike the word vegetarian, the word

vegan specifically implies moral concern for animals, and this concern

extends to all areas of life, not just diet. If you do not believe in animal

equality, please consider referring to yourself as someone who doesn't eat

animal products or as one who follows a plant-based diet. Additionally,

anyone who eats honey, yet refers to herself as a vegan, makes life

difficult for other vegans--it's like having someone who eats fish and calls

herself a vegetarian. When a vegetarian comes along, it is much harder for

her to explain that fish is not acceptable for vegetarians.) Also, I have

not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was wondering what the

animal rights issues might be with honey bees? Are they mistreated?

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

 

 

_______________

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.

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[Guest guest]

On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware that it's

now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them with new

stock the next spring.

 

Dave

 

----

 

 

30 April 2003 19:34:54

 

Re: reasons behind veganism

 

Hi Surya

 

> Also, I have not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was

wondering what the animal rights issues might be with

> honey bees? Are they mistreated?

 

They are :-(

 

I know there's lots more than this, but the two things that I know of are...

 

 

1. The Queen Bee has her wings clipped so she can't fly away to form a hive

in a new area.

2. The honey which is taken is intended to make baby bees healthy - it is

replaces by a sweet substance which is completely lacking in the necessary

nutrients, so the baby bees get ill and don't grow into healthy adult bees.

 

I'm sure there's much more, but that's enough for me!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote:

> On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware

that it's

> now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them

with new

> stock the next spring.

>

> Dave

 

Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale

bee keepers I've spoken to.

 

Also I don't see any problem with eating home produced

garden/orchard scale honey. Certainly more sustainable than using

imported sugar with all the food miles, land exploitation,

industrialised pharming issues this entails.

[Guest guest]

I'll try to find it, Graham, but don't hold your breath. I seem to remember

that it referred more to larger honey producing operations, as they would

receive far greater price breaks when restocking their bee populations.

 

I'll put that CD in the post to you this weekend, btw. Sorry for the delay.

 

Dave

 

 

----

 

 

01 May 2003 18:22:39

 

Re: reasons behind veganism

 

, " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote:

> On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware

that it's

> now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them

with new

> stock the next spring.

>

> Dave

 

Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale

bee keepers I've spoken to.

 

Also I don't see any problem with eating home produced

garden/orchard scale honey. Certainly more sustainable than using

imported sugar with all the food miles, land exploitation,

industrialised pharming issues this entails.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here's some:

From www.vegan.com/faq.html

Q. What's the buzz about honey?

A. Many vegans choose to eliminate honey from their diets because they

believe honey belongs to the bees, just as cows' milk belongs to the cows.

In addition, many people object to the cruelty inherent in beekeeping: some

bees are invariably killed when the beekeeper gathers honey, and some

beekeepers burn their hives at the end of each year.

From http://www.resanigo.most.org.pl/zwierzeta/honey.html

Many believe that bees are not harmed in any way when they are used for

making honey. This, could not be further from the truth. In the North, it

is not profitable to keep bees throughout the winter, thus they are killed.

One way that this is done is by dousing the hive with petroleum, then

burning it. Other times they are simply left to starve to death, after the

honey is taken. Hives are burned when there is a disease outbreak. In

addition, some bees are killed because they eat honey but do not do enough

work. This is usually done at the larval stage.

And on the Vegan Society's site http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info24

html, while they don't go as far as this, they do state that Queen bees are

killed every year or two:

Queen bees are artificially inseminated with sperm obtained from decapitated

bees. Queens are systematically slaughtered every two years because over a

period of time their egg producing abilities decline so their whole hive

becomes unproductive and uneconomic. In Israel they are killed and requeened

every year.

 

Though it was from a different source that I originally read about it.

Dave

 

----

 

 

01 May 2003 18:33:18

 

Re: Re: reasons behind veganism

 

I'll try to find it, Graham, but don't hold your breath. I seem to remember

that it referred more to larger honey producing operations, as they would

receive far greater price breaks when restocking their bee populations.

 

I'll put that CD in the post to you this weekend, btw. Sorry for the delay.

 

Dave

 

 

----

 

 

01 May 2003 18:22:39

 

Re: reasons behind veganism

 

, " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote:

> On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware

that it's

> now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them

with new

> stock the next spring.

>

> Dave

 

Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale

bee keepers I've spoken to.

 

Also I don't see any problem with eating home produced

garden/orchard scale honey. Certainly more sustainable than using

imported sugar with all the food miles, land exploitation,

industrialised pharming issues this entails.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote:

> I'll try to find it, Graham, but don't hold your breath. I seem

to remember

> that it referred more to larger honey producing operations, as

they would

> receive far greater price breaks when restocking their bee

populations.

>

 

We did 'honey argument' on another list last week, here's a repost

of some bits of discussion on then alt.food.vegan newsgroup a while

back, which I will follow up with a reply on that list from a bee

keeper. A bit long but useful if you want to step beyond the cliches

about 'bee puke' and such like;

 

> can you expand on what the beekeepers said...?

 

Well here's some extracts from some e-conversations a while back-

i'll follow this with a reply I had from a bee-keeper. I've also

talked to a couple of bee keepers in the real world who basically

confirm the points made.

 

Sorry it's a bit jumbled up, but there are a number of interesting

points made amongst this;

 

 

 

>There was a thread way back when on the subject of bees & honey-

not *all* vegans follow the 'party line' on the honey question-

personally i don't eat honey, but wouldn't have any problem with

doing so if it was a product of a permaculture orchard system-

others disagree- anyway, I've just had a delve back through the

a.f.v. archives at Google, here's some of what I posted in

the earlier thread...

 

ralpher <ralpher@h...> wrote in message

news:zm9D7.261962$bY5.1046253@n...

> yet another question but i am so interested. do vegans eat honey?

>

>

 

We had 'the honey question' before back in May- here's a repost of

some of my thoughts from a permaculture perspective then, together

with extracts from the follow up threads from here as well as

alt.permaculture & off list... Sorry if it goes on a bit, but you

will see that there is a diversity of views on this subject....

 

Cheers

 

Graham

www.landandliberty.co.uk

 

---

-----

 

> As for honey, vegetarians eat honey, but vegans don't, however, I

do know

> quite a few people who avoid all animal products except honey on

the grounds

> that honey is probably a lot more environmentally sound than sugar.

 

Indeed. I've given this quite a bit of thought from a permaculture

perspective- bees are pollinators and play an important (in fact

essential) part in edible ecosystems such as orchards, fruit

gardens, even allotments, etc, indeed any edible landscape which

includes flowering plants.

They are part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic

system, therefore to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as

a yield from that system provided this is done with sensitivity and

respect to the bees needs. The transaction could even be said to be

mutually beneficial (in return for the excess honey harvested, the

land steward (the human element in the system) is providing a rich

and diverse habitat, place to set up a hive, organically

growing flowering plants, etc)- this is not the same in my view as

large scale commercial honey production which cares nothing for the

bees' welfare and where the relationship and their growing

environment is exploitative and artificial/industrialised (I confess

I don't know a great deal about commercial honey production, but I'm

pretty sure in terms of ethics and ecological accountability it's

the same as all large scale food production,

where the cow/bee/soya bean (Megacorp PLC doesn't differentiate) is

viewed purely as a commodity rather than a component within a total

system with intrinsic qualities, needs and value/worth measured

beyond purely financial terms).

 

It's another one of those issues where sustainability conflicts

with 'full on' veganism- as you pointed out small, local scale honey

production (an animal product) is more environmentally sound than

sugar production (an animal free product, but which leaves in it's

ecological footprint in food miles, land loss, exploited plantation

workers, degraded and eroded land, cash crop economies, etc etc.)

 

Personally I havn't eaten honey since 1984, but probably would if

able to source it from a supplier such as that I have mentioned

above eg, as a local product from a sustainable permaculture or

organic garden, orchard, farm, etc.

 

I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but

decided it would be too much work/responsibility + they might be

incompatible with my kids...

 

Cheers for now,

 

 

--

Graham Burnett

www.landandliberty.co.uk

 

 

---

-

 

Reply from alt.permaculture ng;

 

Graham Burnett <gb0063551@c...> wrote in message

news:XfUM6.1345$hk3.275343@n...

> Hi- at the risk of stiring up a hornet's nest (excuse pun), I

thought

> alt.pc-er's might be interested in this posting I've just sent to

> alt.food.vegan...

 

Hi Graham,

Interesting post...

 

.. They are

> part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic system,

therefore

> to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as a yield from

that

system

> provided this is done with sensitivity and respect to the bees

needs. The

> transaction could even be said to be mutually beneficial (in

return for

the

> excess honey harvested, the land steward (the human element in the

system)

> is providing a rich and diverse habitat, place to set up a hive,

organically

> growing flowering plants, etc)-

 

We're probably the world's worst beekeepers - we bought a hive, left

it outside so that I'd eventully get around to copying the

dimensions and make a couple more hives. In the meantime, a swarm of

bees moved in...

but, because we hadn't left the frames inside, they built their own

somewhat more anarchic version, and we've left them to their own

devices ever since -

never taken an ounce of honey, but, as you say, they're useful

pollinators, and it's interesting and peaceful to sit and watch them

coming and going on a warm day.

 

this is not the same in my view as large

> scale commercial honey production which cares nothing for the bees'

welfare

> and where the relationship and their growing environment is

exploitative

and

> artificial/industrialised (I confess I don't know a great deal

about

> commercial honey production, but I'm pretty sure in terms of

ethics and

> ecological accountability it's the same as all large scale food

production,

> where the cow/bee/soya bean (Megacorp PLC doesn't differentiate)

is viewed

> purely as a commodity rather than a component within a total

system with

> intrinsic qualities, needs and value/worth measured beyond purely

financial

> terms).

 

Most beekeepers would feed the bees a sugar syrup at some stage -

the kinder keeper wouldn't rob the colony of all it's honey, and

would use the syrup to ensure that they had enough feed over the

winter. Commercial beekeepers, I believe, keep the syrup topped up

all year, on the basis that it's wasted effort for them to go flying

around collecting nectar... the bees are effectively converting man-

made sugar, and that's why there's such a difference between

commercial and other honey.

 

>

> It's another one of those issues where sustainability conflicts

with 'full

> on' veganism- as you pointed out small, local scale honey

production (an

> animal product) is more environmentally sound than sugar

production (an

> animal free product, but which leaves in it's ecological footprint

in food

> miles, land loss, exploited plantation workers, degraded and

eroded land,

> cash crop economies, etc etc.)

 

It can get even more complicated - honey has several medicinal

properties. eg. truly _local_ honey, collected by bees from the

local range of flowering plants, is said to relieve hay fever. So

the vegan would have the dilemma of choosing an antihistamine from

some pharmaceutical giant (hiss) over the natural (or some might

even say 'magical') local product...

 

>

> Personally I havn't eaten honey since 1984, but probably would if

able to

> source it from a supplier such as that I have mentioned above eg,

as a

local

> product from a sustainable permaculture or organic garden,

orchard, farm,

> etc.

 

There are beekeepers everywhere, and they're usually kind, patient

and helpful people - bees are all about co-operation, and I suppose

it rubs off.

Unfortuantely, Varroa has killed off a lot of honey bees in the UK

and Europe, and it's now in Ireland aswell. I don't know whether

this has had much effect on availability.

 

> I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but

decided it

> would be too much work/responsibility + they might be incompatible

with my

> kids...

 

I may have the answer - there was an item on Radio 4 recently about

Mason Bees, See http://www.oxbeeco.com/

 

A snippet from their site :

 

" These docile bees are safe with children and pets, are excellent

pollinators of fruit trees, raspberries, early strawberries and are

fond of a range of flowers and tree blossom.

The Red Mason Bee (Osmia rufa) is widespread in England and Wales and

particularly likes the range of flowers and trees found in domestic

gardens.

It is a more efficient pollinator of fruit crops than the honeybee

and by attracting them to your garden not only will you notice

improved fruit crops - apples, plums, pears, strawberries and

raspberries - but the bees also visit a wide range of garden

flowers. The bees are active from late March to the beginning of

July.

The Red Mason Bee is not aggressive, a female will sting only if very

roughly handled between the fingers and even then, it is a puny thing

compared to a wasp or honeybee. "

 

So vegans could provide a cheap nest box (this is nothing like a

honey bee hive) and get all the non-exploitative benefits of having

bees in the garden...

 

If you want to quote any of the above at alt.food.vegan, help

yourself.

Of course, it doesn't answer the question of how to sweeten your

custard :-)

 

TTFN

Mark

 

---

-----

 

 

Extract from reply from alt.food.vegan, with my follow up;

 

 

tharg <t_thargson> wrote in message

news:tg8fg7flgkoo45@x...

> In my opinion, honey is made by bees for bees. Why should I steal

it?

>

>

 

But do we accept that we are part of an ecosystem ourselves,

interacting and entering into relationships with other elements

within that ecosystem, or do we try to stand totally outside of it?

We are a part of nature, not apart from it.

 

Bees can be highly beneficially integrated into an otherwise fully

vegan organic edible landscape, to me it would make sense to make

use of other yields that they provide. This isn't 'stealing' in my

opinion, especially if it reduces reliance on products imported from

outside of an otherwise 'closed' system (eg, refined sugar grown far

away on land which has been 'stolen' from it's original usage),

 

Cheers,

 

 

--

Graham Burnett

 

---

-------

--

 

Here's another reply from a fellow vegan to whom I copied this post

who

isn't (as far as I know) a r to this ng (probably got

better things

to do with his time);

 

Cheers, Graham

 

I disagree on the grounds that the honey bee Apis mellifera

(an 'alien' species to this country), from S.E Asia, is not needed

to pollinate flowers as there are many other insects that do this.

For example the bumble bee which has many different species.

 

Indeed small scale honey production may be more sustainable but is

it really 'surplus honey' you will be taking? Honey, when harvested

from bee hives, has to be replaced by a sugar alternative as the

bees need their

honey to survive and feed their larva.

 

Also is it correct that cane sugar isnt free of animal products due

to the refining process using animal products such as bone? I

wouldnt want to stopn people using bee hives but there is no way

that the bees are really

cared for properly. I have heard horror stories about bees wings and

other body parts being filtered out of honey, before it is packaged

and sold, in

commercial production.

 

Still I would sugest that benefical insects should be encouraged to

a garden or allotment rather than the honey bee. You can construct

bug boxes and other places for bees, wasps and other insects that

would happily pollinate your flowers. Bumble bees are on the decline

this may help restore their numbers. As a vegan I would be happy to

encourage these insects into my garden as permaculture should be

about working with nature and especially native fauna.

 

JON

 

 

tharg <t_thargson> wrote in message

news:tgf7qh8jvdr9b5@x...

> In my humble opinion Bees make the honey for themselves - it's not

my

honey

> to take so I prefer to let the bees have their honey and I'll use

something

> else. However I do think that there is quite a difference between

> commercial growers who kill their bees over the winter period and

very-small

> scale operations who take care of their bees in a more sound way.

Even

so -

> as I do not know how individual bee-keepers look after their bees,

when

I'm

> in the healthfood shop looking at the various jars of honey, I

leave them

on

> the shelf. As there are so many other ways to sweeten foods I

like to

live

> a honey-free existence and I do my best to plant flora that bees

go for.

>

-

" Graham Burnett " <grahamburnett@b...>

<eco_vegans >

Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:49 PM

Re: [eco_vegans] Honey & veganism (reposted from

alt.food.vegan

newsgroup

 

 

>

> > > (There is not, in any meaningful sense, a wild bee population

in the

UK.

> All

> > > the honeybees you see are either hived, or have swarmed from a

hive in

> this

> > > or a previous (bee) generation.)

> >

> > are you talking about wild honeybees or bees?

>

> This was a repost from afg so I can't say... bit's of the original

post

were

> mine, but this bit wasn't- I've invited the original poster to

join here

so

> that he can express himself directly (esp as this seems a lively

thread at

> both venues, but going in 2 diffeent directions!)..

>

> But i'm glad to see this thread has taken on an active life of

it's own!

>

> Graham

[Guest guest]

> We did 'honey argument' on another list last week, here's a repost

> of some bits of discussion on then alt.food.vegan newsgroup a

while

> back, which I will follow up with a reply on that list from a bee

> keeper. A bit long but useful if you want to step beyond the

cliches

> about 'bee puke' and such like;

>

 

And here's the reply from the beekeeper;

 

 

> Well here's some extracts from some e-conversations a while back-

> i'll follow this with a reply I had from a bee-keeper. I've also

> talked to a couple of bee keepers in the real world who basically

> confirm the points made.

>

 

And here is a beekepers reply to that last lot;

 

 

Many of the objections raised by vegans to eating honey are based on

misconceptions or ignorance of modern beekeeping..

 

The modern British honey bee is the result of an 80 year programme of

breeding and selection, much of which was carried out by the late

Brother Adam of Buckfast Abbey (Devon) and his colleagues, following

the virtual extinction of the native British 'black' bee through a

disease called Acarine at the time of the First World War. They have

been selectively bred for characteristics such as productivity, good

temper, disease resistance, disinclination to swarm, over-wintering

ability, and so on.

 

(There is not, in any meaningful sense, a wild bee population in the

UK. All the honeybees you see are either hived, or have swarmed from

a hive in this or a previous (bee) generation.)

 

As a result, they are pretty robust, easy to handle (I never wear

gloves) and produce far more honey than they need for their own

winter stocks. In a good season, a full colony may produce 150+ lb

of honey, while they only need about 30-40 lb for winter stocks.

Therefore, surplus honey can be removed without any adverse effects

on the bees.

 

The biggest threat to bees is disease: American and European Foul

Brood are endemic but treatable if caught early, while the varroa

mite and its

associated viral diseases have recently migrated here and last year

some swarms in Devon began to show signs of varroa having become

resistant to treatment.

 

So this sort of thing (quoted from another thread):

 

> We're probably the world's worst beekeepers - we bought a hive,

left it

> outside so that I'd eventully get around to copying the dimensions

and

make a couple more hives. In the meantime, a swarm of bees moved

in... but,

> because we hadn't left the frames inside, they built their own

somewhat

more anarchic version, and we've left them to their own devices ever

since -

> never taken an ounce of honey, but, as you say, they're useful

pollinators, and it's interesting and peaceful to sit and watch them

coming

and going

on a warm day.

 

-- i.e. leaving a colony in a hive without checking for disease

would be regarded by beekeepers as irresponsible, because of the

potential for infecting other colonies.

 

In my experience, all beekeepers are concerned for the welfare of

their bees. I cannot speak for large scale commercial operations,

but even they will take reasonable care because the bees are their

livelihood, and if you abuse bees, they *will* complain, with

painful consequences.

 

> Most beekeepers would feed the bees a sugar syrup at some stage -

the

>kinder keeper wouldn't rob the colony of all it's honey, and would

use the

syrup

>to ensure that they had enough feed over the winter.

 

Sugar syrup is used to top up winter feed if needed, and

occasionally at other times (such as immediately after hiving a

swarm to help them get settled in). Conscientious 'hobby' beekeepers

tend to leave enough honey for winter stocks.

 

Commercial beekeepers, I

> believe, keep the syrup topped up all year, on the basis that it's

wasted

> effort for them to go flying around collecting nectar... the bees

are

> effectively converting man-made sugar, and that's why there's such

a

> difference between commercial and other honey.

 

The only commercial honey producer I have direct experience of is

Buckfast Abbey, and they certainly to not feed sugar all year round.

I can't really believe that anyone does this - it would be hugely

expensive and quite unnecessary in any but the worst season.

 

> It can get even more complicated - honey has several medicinal

properties.

> eg. truly _local_ honey, collected by bees from the local range of

flowering plants, is said to relieve hay fever. So the vegan would

have the

dilemma

of choosing an antihistamine from some pharmaceutical giant (hiss)

over the

> natural (or some might even say 'magical') local product...

 

Local honey has to be one of the most healthy, eco-friendly foods

you can buy.

 

Which would you rather eat/use:

- honey or sugar?

- propolis or antibiotics?

- beeswax or paraffin wax?

 

Are you going to support small-scale, local beekeeping, or

agribusiness, pharmaceuticals and the petrochemical industry? It

seems to me that vegans have to face up to this one.

 

> There are beekeepers everywhere, and they're usually kind, patient

and

> helpful people - bees are all about co-operation, and I suppose it

rubs

off.

 

Indeed, bees are probably the best model of a truly co-operative

species, along with certain kinds of ants. However, I think it would

be dangerous to draw too many parallels with human society. For one

thing, the queen is the

only sexually mature female in the hive, and her job is simply to

lay eggs, which she does at the rate of about 2000 per *day* for her

productive lifetime, which may be up to 5 years, though usually

less. And she only mates once in her lifetime (some say 2-3x) with

several drones (male bees).

All the work in the hive is done by sexually immature females

(workers), while the drones bumble about getting in the way (sounds

familiar to some, I know...). BTW - worker bees live 15-30 days

during the summer, as much as 3 months in winter.

 

> > I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but

decided

it would be too much work/responsibility + they might be

incompatible with

my kids...

 

I would encourage anyone with a garden - even a roof garden in a

town - to keep bees unless they or members of their family or

immediate neighbours are one of the small number who are allergic to

bee stings. One or two hives do not take a lot of looking after, and

there are local associations to help out in most areas.

 

Bees hardly ever sting unless provoked. I can open one of my hives,

take out and examine frames full of bees, put it all back together

all without wearing gloves and I hardly ever get stung. I do wear a

veil, as getting stung in the eye can lead to blindness and stings

in or near the mouth can be very painful.

 

It is true that a bee - unlike a wasp - will die after stinging a

human because of their barbed sting and the elasticity of human

skin,

which may be

one reason they don't do it much - although that may be ascribing

them too much intelligence.

 

Another myth is that honey bees 'crowd out' other insects. I see no

evidence of this. In fact, the other day I counted 35 bumble bees of

at least 3 different species on a patch of phacelia growing within a

few feet of a hive cotaining at least 50,000 honey bees. Bumble bees

and honeybees are adapted to dfferent plants - bumble bees can feed

on red clover, for

example, while

honey bees cannot and prefer the smaller flowers of white clover.

 

> I may have the answer - there was an item on Radio 4 recently

about Mason

> Bees, See http://www.oxbeeco.com/

 

> " These docile bees are safe with children and pets, are excellent

> pollinators of fruit trees, raspberries, early strawberries and

are fond

<snip>

> So vegans could provide a cheap nest box (this is nothing like a

honey bee

> hive) and get all the non-exploitative benefits of having bees in

the

> garden...

 

Yes, I would encourage this - mason bees are vg pollinators. But if

you want

the fun and interest of watching one of nature's most perfectly

adapted

creatures (with a little help from man *ahem* humans *ahem* people -

oh fuck

it, beekeepers...) plus the undoubted medicinal and health benefits

of honey

and propolis, plus wonderful beeswax for making skin creams,

cosmetics,

candles, furniture polish, leather dressing (oops) and so on, then

you can't

do better than a hive ot two of honey bees.

 

> Bees can be highly beneficially integrated into an otherwise fully

vegan

> organic edible landscape, to me it would make sense to make use of

other

> yields that they provide. This isn't 'stealing' in my opinion,

especially

if it reduces reliance on products imported from outside of an

otherwise

> 'closed' system (eg, refined sugar grown far away on land which

has been

> 'stolen' from it's original usage),

> Graham Burnett

 

Well put, Graham.

 

Gad \|/

[Guest guest]

>

> I'll put that CD in the post to you this weekend, btw. Sorry for

the delay.

>

> Dave

 

Which reminds me I owe Rat a CD....

[Guest guest]

Hi Graham

 

As someone who has obviously done a lot of research into the honey issue....

 

> They are part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic

> system, therefore to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as

> a yield from that system provided this is done with sensitivity and

> respect to the bees needs.

 

Are you aware of any beekeepers who use such method of harvesting honey? My

understanding is that it is exceedingly rare amongst bee keepers to harvest

honey in this way, and that they do not simply take whatever is left over

after the bees have all moved on. I would be very surprised simply because

the amount of honey left over would be pretty insignificant, and I can't see

it being economically viable to harvest honey in this way.

 

Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which is... the

word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not consume any

products which come from animals - since honey comes from an animal, anyone

who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves vegan. In

the same way that vegetarians get (rightly) upset when fish eaters call

themselves vegetarian.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Graham

> The modern British honey bee is the result of an 80 year programme of

> breeding and selection, much of which was carried out by the late

> Brother Adam of Buckfast Abbey (Devon) and his colleagues, following

> the virtual extinction of the native British 'black' bee through a

> disease called Acarine at the time of the First World War. They have

> been selectively bred for characteristics such as productivity, good

> temper, disease resistance, disinclination to swarm, over-wintering

> ability, and so on.

 

Ah - so slavery is OK as long as the slaves have been bred for the purpose?

 

The way I read this whole post from this beekeeper is: beekeepers breed bees

for their own profit and enslave them. Is that something vegans should be

happy to support? I think not. Also...

 

> Sugar syrup is used to top up winter feed if needed, and

> occasionally at other times (such as immediately after hiving a

> swarm to help them get settled in).

 

So, it's perfectly acceptable to remove the high nutrient honey, and replace

it with something which has none of the necessary nutrients for bees, and

therefore causes illness and death. I don't see this as being animal

friendly.

 

Graham, I am very happy for people to make their own decisions about what

they eat - if you want to eat honey, that is your decision, but I think your

attempts to claim that supporting this business is in line with the vegan

ethic ranks alongside meat eaters claiming that humans are designed to eat

meat.

 

I think it would be better to be honest with yourself - you want to eat

honey - please don't insult our intelligence by trying to make out that it

does no harm.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

A vegan does not eat or use animal products. Bees are animals. Honey comes

from bees.

 

Vegans do not eat or use animal products.

 

Jo

 

 

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[Guest guest]

>

> I think it would be better to be honest with yourself - you want

to eat

> honey - please don't insult our intelligence by trying to make out

that it

> does no harm.

 

Um, how is intelegence insulted by posting several different

viewpoints (please don't attribute all the points posted to me, it's

clear that they arn't)? I think we are all adult enough to make up

our own minds, my intention was merely to broaden the debate beyond

the 'bee puke' cliches. It's up to the individual whether they use

honey or not, personally I would use home produced, garden scale

honey from a person who I know or am convinced harvests in a

sustainable way, if you choose to exclude honey I have no problem

with that either and would not seek to persuade you otherwise. I

just find it difficuklt to accept that some vegans fell they are

able to take the moral high ground on this issue whilst still

consuming cash crop, chemically grown, imported sugar (most of which

has also been purified using bone charcoal as well).

 

BTW I would query whether those who exclude honey from their diets

also exclude fruit and nuts, as virtually all cultivated apples,

pears, hazels, plums, cherries, etc, etc are grown on grafted trees,

the majority of which will have been the result of a scion from a

parent tree having been grafted to a rootstock using bees wax.

[Guest guest]

, " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...>

wrote:

> A vegan does not eat or use animal products. Bees are animals.

Honey comes

> from bees.

>

> Vegans do not eat or use animal products.

 

You are repeating yourself. Repeating yourself.

 

Graham :-)

[Guest guest]

I think the whole argument is based on whether your main interest is

veganism or permaculture!

 

Jo

-

" quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett

 

Friday, May 02, 2003 9:15 AM

Re: reasons behind veganism

 

 

>

> >

> > I think it would be better to be honest with yourself - you want

> to eat

> > honey - please don't insult our intelligence by trying to make out

> that it

> > does no harm.

>

> Um, how is intelegence insulted by posting several different

> viewpoints (please don't attribute all the points posted to me, it's

> clear that they arn't)? I think we are all adult enough to make up

> our own minds, my intention was merely to broaden the debate beyond

> the 'bee puke' cliches. It's up to the individual whether they use

> honey or not, personally I would use home produced, garden scale

> honey from a person who I know or am convinced harvests in a

> sustainable way, if you choose to exclude honey I have no problem

> with that either and would not seek to persuade you otherwise. I

> just find it difficuklt to accept that some vegans fell they are

> able to take the moral high ground on this issue whilst still

> consuming cash crop, chemically grown, imported sugar (most of which

> has also been purified using bone charcoal as well).

>

> BTW I would query whether those who exclude honey from their diets

> also exclude fruit and nuts, as virtually all cultivated apples,

> pears, hazels, plums, cherries, etc, etc are grown on grafted trees,

> the majority of which will have been the result of a scion from a

> parent tree having been grafted to a rootstock using bees wax.

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just trying to emphasise the point which it appeared you had overlooked.

 

Jo

-

" quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett

 

Friday, May 02, 2003 9:16 AM

Re: reasons behind veganism

 

 

> , " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...>

> wrote:

> > A vegan does not eat or use animal products. Bees are animals.

> Honey comes

> > from bees.

> >

> > Vegans do not eat or use animal products.

>

> You are repeating yourself. Repeating yourself.

>

> Graham :-)

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/1/03 10:27:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, grahamburnett writes:

 

Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale

bee keepers I've spoken to.

 

its the case here in the states......

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/2/03 7:50:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, grahamburnett writes:

 

What even on the small, orchard/garden scale I'm refering to?

 

most bee growers here are large conglomerates...or at least, that is the direction things are heading

most small orchards hire outside apiaries and the like,...folks drive there bees in and leave them for a week or two to pollenate the fruit trees, and then the bee keeper comes in and moves them to another site.....

i would hazard a guess that small local producer, especially one that is organic, should be better..but..they are getting harder and harder to find...

fraggle

[Guest guest]

, " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...>

wrote:

> Just trying to emphasise the point which it appeared you had

overlooked.

>

 

I see. I see :-)

[Guest guest]

, " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote:

> Hi Graham

>

> As someone who has obviously done a lot of research into the honey

issue....

>

> > They are part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining)

cyclic

> > system, therefore to me it is justifiable to harvest excess

honey as

> > a yield from that system provided this is done with sensitivity

and

> > respect to the bees needs.

>

> Are you aware of any beekeepers who use such method of harvesting

honey? My

> understanding is that it is exceedingly rare amongst bee keepers

to harvest

> honey in this way, and that they do not simply take whatever is

left over

> after the bees have all moved on. I would be very surprised simply

because

> the amount of honey left over would be pretty insignificant, and I

can't see

> it being economically viable to harvest honey in this way.

 

The figures I've heard from talking to beekeepers are that many

hives produce two or three times the amount of honey they require. A

sesnitive bee keeper would keep well within such parameters.

 

The only honey I have bought (very rarely) is indeed produced as

part of a cycling system, ie, from an orchard in North essex were

the bees are their prinmarily as pollinators, with the honey being

an excess yield from the system. I also had a long talk with the bee

keeper, who I happened to meet whilst wandering about in the

orchard, this person clearly cared about his hives and bees, in fact

he was in the process of protecting the hives over the winter months

from maruading woodpeckers and mice, certainly not setting light to

them or pulling off the queen bee's head.

 

This, or honey produced in similar circumstances, is the only honey

I would use.

[Guest guest]

> Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which

is... the

> word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not

consume any

> products which come from animals - since honey comes from an

animal, anyone

> who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves

vegan.

 

To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line,

especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for

environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as

a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from

an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested

and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to

themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined

with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted

with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with

animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal

slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to

kill insect or rodent pests " .

 

At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan

Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience

(I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently

I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still

prefer to make up my own mind...

 

Cheers, Graham

[Guest guest]

, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/1/03 10:27:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> grahamburnett@b... writes:

> >

> > Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small

scale

> > bee keepers I've spoken to.

>

> its the case here in the states......

 

What even on the small, orchard/garden scale I'm refering to?

[Guest guest]

Hi Graham

 

> I think we are all adult enough to make up

> our own minds, my intention was merely to broaden the debate beyond

> the 'bee puke' cliches.

 

While I'm all for widening a debate, it was already way wider than " bee puke

cliches " !

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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