Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 > i would hazard a guess that small local producer, especially one that is > organic, should be better..but..they are getting harder and harder to find... > fraggle All the more reason to appreciate and support them! Cheers Graham :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 , " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote: > Hi Graham > > > I think we are all adult enough to make up > > our own minds, my intention was merely to broaden the debate beyond > > the 'bee puke' cliches. > > While I'm all for widening a debate, it was already way wider than " bee puke > cliches " ! > fair enuf but that was the post I first picked up on... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 Hi graham > The figures I've heard from talking to beekeepers are that many > hives produce two or three times the amount of honey they require. A > sesnitive bee keeper would keep well within such parameters. As a matter of comparison - when the Milk Marketing Board say that cows produce two to three times more milk than calves need, do you also believe them? I tend to be very suspicious of people who have something to gain from a particular industry, so I tend to look at it like this... Beekeepers have a vested interest in promoting a viewpoint which shows bees are looked after humanely. The Vegan Society, PETA, etc. have a vested interest in ensuring that animals are treated humanely. While I'm sure the latter aren't perfect, I don't see any motive they would have in being economical with the truth over the issue of honey, but I can see that beekeepers would have such motive. > The only honey I have bought (very rarely) is indeed produced as > part of a cycling system, ie, from an orchard in North essex were > the bees are their prinmarily as pollinators, with the honey being > an excess yield from the system. I also had a long talk with the bee > keeper, who I happened to meet whilst wandering about in the > orchard, this person clearly cared about his hives and bees, in fact > he was in the process of protecting the hives over the winter months > from maruading woodpeckers and mice, certainly not setting light to > them or pulling off the queen bee's head. You'll find that most dairy farmers give the impression that they care about their cows. I remember a large number of dairy and cattle farmers being really upset at their beloved animals being slaughtered during the Foot & Mouth " crisis " . I'm sure there are some beekeepers who are better than others - I just remain suspicious as to how honest they would be when trying to promote their hobby / livelihood / culture. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 Hi Graham > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, To me it's whether or not I can go into a restaurant or shop, tell them I'm vegan and it be understood that I don't consume animal products. There is nothing " shorthand " about that. Perhaps meateaters should be able to call themselves vegan - then just point out that they consider it to be shorthand for not including scarab beetles in their diet. > i'll start refering to myself as > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > and is part of a wider eco-system " It would be better to refer to yourself as vegetarian who does not consume dairy or eggs. > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > prefer to make up my own mind... I'm not trying to stop you making up your own mind. I'm trying to stop you colouring veganism in the public eye as something it is not. Vegans do not consume products which come from animals - that is a very simple definition. If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself vegan you make life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself vegan you make > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? At least i'm honest! Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think outside the vegan box on some issues. Cheers Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 hi everyone, as a vegan diabetic, who cant eat sugar or honey anyway, to me, all this talk of the poor bees and how its ok to keep them in boxes is a bit sad............. have a fab bank holiday catherine >EBbrewpunx > > >Re: Re: reasons behind veganism >Fri, 2 May 2003 11:05:10 EDT > >In a message dated 5/2/03 7:50:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >grahamburnett writes: > > > > What even on the small, orchard/garden scale I'm refering to? > >most bee growers here are large conglomerates...or at least, that is the >direction things are heading >most small orchards hire outside apiaries and the like,...folks drive there >bees in and leave them for a week or two to pollenate the fruit trees, and >then the bee keeper comes in and moves them to another site..... >i would hazard a guess that small local producer, especially one that is >organic, should be better..but..they are getting harder and harder to find... >fraggle Want your email in a hurry? Get Hotmail direct to your mobile Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 > As a matter of comparison - when the Milk Marketing Board say that cows > produce two to three times more milk than calves need, do you also believe > them? > > I tend to be very suspicious of people who have something to gain from a > particular industry, so I tend to look at it like this... > Hi peter- i think it's pushing it a bit to compare hobby-scale bee keeping with the industrialised milk production industry... > Beekeepers have a vested interest in promoting a viewpoint which shows bees > are looked after humanely. > The Vegan Society, PETA, etc. have a vested interest in ensuring that > animals are treated humanely. But is it not also possible that they too are ideologically motivated and will selectively use information and facts to promote their own agenda (ie, that the use of ANY animal product is ALWAYS unethical)? > > > I'm sure there are some beekeepers who are better than others - I just > remain suspicious as to how honest they would be when trying to promote > their hobby / livelihood / culture. The beekeeeper I met in the orchard wasn't trying to sell me honey- nor did he know that I would describe myself as vegan- we were just generally chatting and I was watching him at work... Neither was trying to sell the other either ideaolgies or honey :-) I'm afraid you'll no more convince me that all bee keepers are liars than i will convince you that the issue isn't as black and white in ecological terms as vegan orthodoxy would have it... Cheers Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 Hi Catherine Do you have any recipes for cakes suitable for diabetics (assuming that there are some that are okay). One of our friends is diabetic and it would be nice to be able to provide something special for him. Jo - Catherine Harris Friday, May 02, 2003 5:00 PM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism hi everyone, as a vegan diabetic, who cant eat sugar or honey anyway, to me, all this talk of the poor bees and how its ok to keep them in boxes is a bit sad............. have a fab bank holiday catherine >EBbrewpunx > > >Re: Re: reasons behind veganism >Fri, 2 May 2003 11:05:10 EDT > >In a message dated 5/2/03 7:50:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >grahamburnett writes: > > > > What even on the small, orchard/garden scale I'm refering to? > >most bee growers here are large conglomerates...or at least, that is the >direction things are heading >most small orchards hire outside apiaries and the like,...folks drive there >bees in and leave them for a week or two to pollenate the fruit trees, and >then the bee keeper comes in and moves them to another site..... >i would hazard a guess that small local producer, especially one that is >organic, should be better..but..they are getting harder and harder to find... >fraggle Want your email in a hurry? Get Hotmail direct to your mobile To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 Hi Tom- thanks for putting things into perspective! Cheers Graham , " Vegecentric " <vegecentric@o...> wrote: > To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just ate > roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and not > killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. If > you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. that's > fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just > doesn't rate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 , " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote: > Hi Graham > > Ah - so slavery is OK as long as the slaves have been bred for the purpose? > > The way I read this whole post from this beekeeper is: beekeepers breed bees > for their own profit and enslave them. Is that something vegans should be > happy to support? I think not. Also... > Wheras virtual slavery in sugar plantations and processing factories is perfectly acceptable??? Just a thought... Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 , " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett@b...> wrote: > , " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote: > > Hi Graham > > > > > Ah - so slavery is OK as long as the slaves have been bred for the > purpose? > > > > The way I read this whole post from this beekeeper is: beekeepers > breed bees > > for their own profit and enslave them. Is that something vegans > should be > > happy to support? I think not. Also... > > > > Wheras virtual slavery in sugar plantations and processing factories > is perfectly acceptable??? > > Just a thought... Ooops forgot to add this reference; http://www.newint.org/issue225/bitter.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think outside the vegan box on some issues. Cheers Graham Graham, You are quite right, I would think that a large proportion of the people on this chat site are or have unwittingly used a non vegan by product at some time or another and will continue to do so ( the use of bone with refining sugar is a good example, but one of many ), yet the very same people seem to think that the issue is very black or white.....it isnt. Judging other fellow vegans is a waste of time, we should all be encouraging each other and sharing knowlage, not judging and adopting a holier than though attitude. Peace , Health and Happiness to all - Two legged friends or more.... Pete h - The Valley Vegan. > Peter H -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 Got a point there, vegecentric. And there are people who think chickens are dumb, so it's OK to kill them. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Sat, 3 May 2003 16:42:16 -0700 You know, it's fine to debate the finer points of veganism, and go with our personal preferences, as long as we understand most people wouldn't give a flying F*** whether we eat honey or not, as they happily eat everything else and will (most likely) never become vegetarian, let alone vegan. Of course honey is not a vegan food, but it is not an issue on which we can readily convince the unconverted/uncommitted. Most people don't give much of a stuff about cows and pigs, let alone insects or fish. Tom - " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett Friday, May 02, 2003 7:02 AM Re: reasons behind veganism > > > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which > is... the > > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not > consume any > > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an > animal, anyone > > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves > vegan. > > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, > especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for > environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to > themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined > with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted > with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with > animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal > slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to > kill insect or rodent pests " . > > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > prefer to make up my own mind... > > Cheers, Graham > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:30 PM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Got a point there, vegecentric. And there are people who think chickens are > dumb, so it's OK to kill them.> And there are people that think that even if chickhens were dumb, it still wouldn't be a good enough reason to kill them..let alone eat them. Simon > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Sat, 3 May 2003 16:42:16 -0700 > > You know, it's fine to debate the finer points of veganism, and go with our > personal preferences, as long as we understand most people wouldn't give a > flying F*** whether we eat honey or not, as they happily eat everything else > and will (most likely) never become vegetarian, let alone vegan. Of course > honey is not a vegan food, but it is not an issue on which we can readily > convince the unconverted/uncommitted. Most people don't give much of a stuff > about cows and pigs, let alone insects or fish. > > Tom > - > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > Friday, May 02, 2003 7:02 AM > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which > > is... the > > > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not > > consume any > > > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an > > animal, anyone > > > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves > > vegan. > > > > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, > > especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for > > environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as > > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > > and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to > > themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined > > with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted > > with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with > > animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal > > slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to > > kill insect or rodent pests " . > > > > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > > prefer to make up my own mind... > > > > Cheers, Graham > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 All I'm saying is people will say anything to justify torturing and killing animals. Excuse me, their complicity in the torture and murder of animals, since their only interaction with these unfortunate creatures is when they eat it. I didn't say it was right; it isn't. I was simply agreeing with vegcentric that people many people don't care about the warm-blooded creatures slain for food; they certainly aren't going to care about the insects. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " simonpjones " <simonpjones Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Sat, 3 May 2003 17:32:11 +0100 - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:30 PM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Got a point there, vegecentric. And there are people who think chickens are > dumb, so it's OK to kill them.> And there are people that think that even if chickhens were dumb, it still wouldn't be a good enough reason to kill them..let alone eat them. Simon > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Sat, 3 May 2003 16:42:16 -0700 > > You know, it's fine to debate the finer points of veganism, and go with our > personal preferences, as long as we understand most people wouldn't give a > flying F*** whether we eat honey or not, as they happily eat everything else > and will (most likely) never become vegetarian, let alone vegan. Of course > honey is not a vegan food, but it is not an issue on which we can readily > convince the unconverted/uncommitted. Most people don't give much of a stuff > about cows and pigs, let alone insects or fish. > > Tom > - > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > Friday, May 02, 2003 7:02 AM > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which > > is... the > > > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not > > consume any > > > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an > > animal, anyone > > > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves > > vegan. > > > > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, > > especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for > > environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as > > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > > and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to > > themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined > > with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted > > with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with > > animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal > > slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to > > kill insect or rodent pests " . > > > > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > > prefer to make up my own mind... > > > > Cheers, Graham > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2003 hi all, went to buddhist restuarant tonite where they had soya that looked so meat like, i couldnt eat it.........my mind wouldnt switch off from the fact it looked like meat...........i think that i realised why would i want to eat something that looks like meat, when what it signifies to me is eating another thinking feeling mammal............. came home and had humous..............felt better catherine >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Re: reasons behind veganism >Sat, 3 May 2003 16:51:59 -0700 > >To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just ate >roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and not >killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. If >you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. that's >fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just >doesn't rate. The main animal products like meat, eggs, dairy products, and >yes, commercial honey, are the ones to target. If no one ate these, all the >shitty little by-products we have to scan for would not be economically >viable, and therefore exist. > >Tom > >- >"quercusrobur2002" > >Friday, May 02, 2003 8:50 AM > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself > > vegan you make > > > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > > > > > > > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, > > frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on > > land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry > > and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? > > > > At least i'm honest! > > > > Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years > > to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for > > vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), > > publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book > > for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the > > Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, > > garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture > > circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for > > me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go > > into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case > > I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think > > outside the vegan box on some issues. > > > > Cheers Graham > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 4, 2003 You know, it's fine to debate the finer points of veganism, and go with our personal preferences, as long as we understand most people wouldn't give a flying F*** whether we eat honey or not, as they happily eat everything else and will (most likely) never become vegetarian, let alone vegan. Of course honey is not a vegan food, but it is not an issue on which we can readily convince the unconverted/uncommitted. Most people don't give much of a stuff about cows and pigs, let alone insects or fish. Tom - " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett Friday, May 02, 2003 7:02 AM Re: reasons behind veganism > > > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which > is... the > > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not > consume any > > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an > animal, anyone > > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves > vegan. > > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, > especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for > environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to > themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined > with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted > with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with > animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal > slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to > kill insect or rodent pests " . > > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > prefer to make up my own mind... > > Cheers, Graham > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 4, 2003 To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just ate roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and not killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. If you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. that's fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just doesn't rate. The main animal products like meat, eggs, dairy products, and yes, commercial honey, are the ones to target. If no one ate these, all the shitty little by-products we have to scan for would not be economically viable, and therefore exist. Tom - " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett Friday, May 02, 2003 8:50 AM Re: reasons behind veganism > > > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself > vegan you make > > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > > > > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, > frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on > land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry > and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? > > At least i'm honest! > > Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years > to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for > vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), > publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book > for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the > Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, > garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture > circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for > me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go > into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case > I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think > outside the vegan box on some issues. > > Cheers Graham > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2003 Well, if any of them says, " I'm an environmentalist, " you can tell them all the damage meat " production " does to the earth. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Sun, 4 May 2003 19:31:11 -0700 Recently my wife emailed some photos of brutal treatment of broiler chickens (missing feathers, broken limbs, etc) to her non-veg friends - most of them nice people & respectful of our ethics, but not one of them said they'd stop eating chicken. Only one said she might be concerned about her kids ingesting growth hormones via broiler chickens, but none was overly fussed about the cruelty. Sounds cynical, but the only way I believe we can get people eating more cruelty-free fare (forget about " converting " them totally to veg-ism) is to appeal to their self-interest, ie health, vanity, fear of disease etc. McVegan burger, anyone? Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Saturday, May 03, 2003 8:30 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Got a point there, vegecentric. And there are people who think chickens are > dumb, so it's OK to kill them. > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Sat, 3 May 2003 16:42:16 -0700 > > You know, it's fine to debate the finer points of veganism, and go with our > personal preferences, as long as we understand most people wouldn't give a > flying F*** whether we eat honey or not, as they happily eat everything else > and will (most likely) never become vegetarian, let alone vegan. Of course > honey is not a vegan food, but it is not an issue on which we can readily > convince the unconverted/uncommitted. Most people don't give much of a stuff > about cows and pigs, let alone insects or fish. > > Tom > - > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > Friday, May 02, 2003 7:02 AM > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which > > is... the > > > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not > > consume any > > > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an > > animal, anyone > > > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves > > vegan. > > > > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, > > especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for > > environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as > > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > > and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to > > themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined > > with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted > > with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with > > animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal > > slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to > > kill insect or rodent pests " . > > > > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > > prefer to make up my own mind... > > > > Cheers, Graham > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2003 Recently my wife emailed some photos of brutal treatment of broiler chickens (missing feathers, broken limbs, etc) to her non-veg friends - most of them nice people & respectful of our ethics, but not one of them said they'd stop eating chicken. Only one said she might be concerned about her kids ingesting growth hormones via broiler chickens, but none was overly fussed about the cruelty. Sounds cynical, but the only way I believe we can get people eating more cruelty-free fare (forget about " converting " them totally to veg-ism) is to appeal to their self-interest, ie health, vanity, fear of disease etc. McVegan burger, anyone? Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Saturday, May 03, 2003 8:30 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Got a point there, vegecentric. And there are people who think chickens are > dumb, so it's OK to kill them. > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Sat, 3 May 2003 16:42:16 -0700 > > You know, it's fine to debate the finer points of veganism, and go with our > personal preferences, as long as we understand most people wouldn't give a > flying F*** whether we eat honey or not, as they happily eat everything else > and will (most likely) never become vegetarian, let alone vegan. Of course > honey is not a vegan food, but it is not an issue on which we can readily > convince the unconverted/uncommitted. Most people don't give much of a stuff > about cows and pigs, let alone insects or fish. > > Tom > - > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > Friday, May 02, 2003 7:02 AM > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which > > is... the > > > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not > > consume any > > > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an > > animal, anyone > > > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves > > vegan. > > > > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, > > especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for > > environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as > > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > > and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to > > themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined > > with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted > > with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with > > animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal > > slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to > > kill insect or rodent pests " . > > > > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > > prefer to make up my own mind... > > > > Cheers, Graham > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2003 Any person who calls themselves an " environmentalist " but eats meat is a posturing wanker. Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Sunday, May 04, 2003 4:04 PM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Well, if any of them says, " I'm an environmentalist, " you can tell them all > the damage meat " production " does to the earth. > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Sun, 4 May 2003 19:31:11 -0700 > > Recently my wife emailed some photos of brutal treatment of broiler chickens > (missing feathers, broken limbs, etc) to her non-veg friends - most of them > nice people & respectful of our ethics, but not one of them said they'd stop > eating chicken. Only one said she might be concerned about her kids > ingesting growth hormones via broiler chickens, but none was overly fussed > about the cruelty. Sounds cynical, but the only way I believe we can get > people eating more cruelty-free fare (forget about " converting " them totally > to veg-ism) is to appeal to their self-interest, ie health, vanity, fear of > disease etc. > McVegan burger, anyone? > > Tom > > - > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > Saturday, May 03, 2003 8:30 AM > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > Got a point there, vegecentric. And there are people who think chickens > are > > dumb, so it's OK to kill them. > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > > > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > Sat, 3 May 2003 16:42:16 -0700 > > > > You know, it's fine to debate the finer points of veganism, and go with > our > > personal preferences, as long as we understand most people wouldn't give > a > > flying F*** whether we eat honey or not, as they happily eat everything > else > > and will (most likely) never become vegetarian, let alone vegan. Of > course > > honey is not a vegan food, but it is not an issue on which we can readily > > convince the unconverted/uncommitted. Most people don't give much of a > stuff > > about cows and pigs, let alone insects or fish. > > > > Tom > > - > > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > > > Friday, May 02, 2003 7:02 AM > > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which > > > is... the > > > > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not > > > consume any > > > > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an > > > animal, anyone > > > > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves > > > vegan. > > > > > > To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, > > > especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for > > > environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as > > > a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from > > > an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested > > > and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to > > > themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined > > > with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted > > > with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with > > > animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal > > > slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to > > > kill insect or rodent pests " . > > > > > > At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan > > > Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience > > > (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently > > > I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still > > > prefer to make up my own mind... > > > > > > Cheers, Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 10, 2003 Tom I disagree. All vegans I know do not want to eat any animal, so will boycott these items, no matter how difficult it is to scan labels. McVities biscuits are now made using vegetable fat instead of lard, mainly because so many people stopped buying them and wrote to them asking why they were not vegetarian. What you buy makes a very big difference to what is available, especially if you let companies know why you are not buying - GM products is an example. Jo - " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:51 AM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just ate > roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and not > killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. If > you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. that's > fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just > doesn't rate. The main animal products like meat, eggs, dairy products, and > yes, commercial honey, are the ones to target. If no one ate these, all the > shitty little by-products we have to scan for would not be economically > viable, and therefore exist. > > Tom > > - > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > Friday, May 02, 2003 8:50 AM > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself > > vegan you make > > > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > > > > > > > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, > > frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on > > land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry > > and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? > > > > At least i'm honest! > > > > Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years > > to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for > > vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), > > publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book > > for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the > > Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, > > garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture > > circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for > > me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go > > into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case > > I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think > > outside the vegan box on some issues. > > > > Cheers Graham > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 11, 2003 I can concede the point of avoiding the big stuff--meat, milk/cream, eggs, gelatin, lard, lanolin, silk, bee products, carmine, blah, blah, blah, and letting the smaller things work out. I won't buy refined sugar, but if a product has it, I don't worry terribly about it. And you're right about organic meat, milk, eggs still being organic cruelty. Can you say " greenwashing, " boys and girls? Here in the US--and in other countries, I'm sure--free-range is so diluted as to be meaningless. However, I would rather not have animal genes in my veggies, thankyouverymuch. It's one thing to create a hybrid of two plants to create a new variety--creating a hybrid mushroom or tomato, for instance out of two types of mushrooms or tomatoes--it's another to modify plants to resist the damaging effects of pesticides and herbicides or put fish genes in my beans. That would defeat the purpose of veganism, don't you think? Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: Re: reasons behind veganism Sun, 11 May 2003 23:56:45 -0700 I much prefer to give a product a miss even if it has the minutest amount of animal crap in it, so I fully empathise with you. Also in my newsletter, I always include a " Product News " section highlighting good vegan alternatives. What I think is destructive, however, is people who, for example, eat soy cheese with a little bit of casein in it, being denounced as non-vegans, or the anti-christ or whatever, when in reality, if everyone only ate soycheese that would decimate the dairy industry. I believe it's important to distinguish between those miniscule additives that we'd naturally rather avoid, but don't ultimately prop up any animal abuse industry on their own, and the main animal products such as milk, eggs, cheese, etc... Plus, as far as GM goes, it doesn't rate with me, as long as there's no cruelty involved. Veggo groups here enthusiastically promote an anti-GMO Greenpiss, sorry Greenpeace leaflet encouraging consumers to demand organic " meat, milk and eggs " , as if organic GM-free dead animal is somehow ok...yeah, right... Tom - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Saturday, May 10, 2003 12:20 PM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Tom > > I disagree. All vegans I know do not want to eat any animal, so will > boycott these items, no matter how difficult it is to scan labels. McVities > biscuits are now made using vegetable fat instead of lard, mainly because so > many people stopped buying them and wrote to them asking why they were not > vegetarian. What you buy makes a very big difference to what is available, > especially if you let companies know why you are not buying - GM products is > an example. > > Jo > - > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:51 AM > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just ate > > roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and not > > killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. If > > you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. > that's > > fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just > > doesn't rate. The main animal products like meat, eggs, dairy products, > and > > yes, commercial honey, are the ones to target. If no one ate these, all > the > > shitty little by-products we have to scan for would not be economically > > viable, and therefore exist. > > > > Tom > > > > - > > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > > > Friday, May 02, 2003 8:50 AM > > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > > > > > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself > > > vegan you make > > > > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > > > > > > > > > > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, > > > frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on > > > land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry > > > and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? > > > > > > At least i'm honest! > > > > > > Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years > > > to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for > > > vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), > > > publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book > > > for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the > > > Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, > > > garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture > > > circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for > > > me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go > > > into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case > > > I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think > > > outside the vegan box on some issues. > > > > > > Cheers Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 I much prefer to give a product a miss even if it has the minutest amount of animal crap in it, so I fully empathise with you. Also in my newsletter, I always include a " Product News " section highlighting good vegan alternatives. What I think is destructive, however, is people who, for example, eat soy cheese with a little bit of casein in it, being denounced as non-vegans, or the anti-christ or whatever, when in reality, if everyone only ate soycheese that would decimate the dairy industry. I believe it's important to distinguish between those miniscule additives that we'd naturally rather avoid, but don't ultimately prop up any animal abuse industry on their own, and the main animal products such as milk, eggs, cheese, etc... Plus, as far as GM goes, it doesn't rate with me, as long as there's no cruelty involved. Veggo groups here enthusiastically promote an anti-GMO Greenpiss, sorry Greenpeace leaflet encouraging consumers to demand organic " meat, milk and eggs " , as if organic GM-free dead animal is somehow ok...yeah, right... Tom - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Saturday, May 10, 2003 12:20 PM Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > Tom > > I disagree. All vegans I know do not want to eat any animal, so will > boycott these items, no matter how difficult it is to scan labels. McVities > biscuits are now made using vegetable fat instead of lard, mainly because so > many people stopped buying them and wrote to them asking why they were not > vegetarian. What you buy makes a very big difference to what is available, > especially if you let companies know why you are not buying - GM products is > an example. > > Jo > - > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > Sunday, May 04, 2003 12:51 AM > Re: Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > To me, veganism is about boycotting unncessary cruelty. If people just ate > > roadkill, and eggs from pet chickens (that were well looked after and not > > killed after their laying declined), I wouldn't have a problem with it. If > > you boycott a minute ingredient like bone charcoal, whey powder, etc. > that's > > fine from a personal perspective, but as an effective boycott, it just > > doesn't rate. The main animal products like meat, eggs, dairy products, > and > > yes, commercial honey, are the ones to target. If no one ate these, all > the > > shitty little by-products we have to scan for would not be economically > > viable, and therefore exist. > > > > Tom > > > > - > > " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett > > > > Friday, May 02, 2003 8:50 AM > > Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > > > > > > > If you eat honey, you aren't a vegan, and by calling yourself > > > vegan you make > > > > life much more difficult for those of us who are vegan. > > > > > > > > > > What about vegans who continue to eat bone charcoal purified sugar, > > > frut and nuts from trees grafted with beeswax, vegetables grown on > > > land fertilised with animal manure from the meat production industry > > > and where insect and rodent controls have been applied? > > > > > > At least i'm honest! > > > > > > Besides, in net terms I'm pretty sure I've done more over the years > > > to promote veganism rather than make life 'much more difficult' for > > > vegans, including raising 4 vegan children (who DON'T eat honey), > > > publishing a vegan cookbook (no honey recipes), publishing a book > > > for vegan children and being actively involved with both MCL and the > > > Vegan Organic Network and maintaining vegan-organic allotments, > > > garden and forest garden (and arguing the vegan case in permaculture > > > circles). Bearing this in mind 'vegan' is still useful shorthand for > > > me as people understand what it means. On the whole I don't go > > > into 'the honey question' unless, as here, it comes up in which case > > > I think it's reasonable to show that there are some who think > > > outside the vegan box on some issues. > > > > > > Cheers Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 4:49:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: So, for example, if someone could successfully market a fully vegan burger to the masses, and it had some GM component like oil or something, so what? well, lets just say tinkering with the genepool is FOREVER!!!! and ever.. once the genie gets out of the bottle, you can't put it back.. they are trying to owe and copywrote life itself, and these are folks who can't seem to balance their own books er stay out of scandals er the like... once something that we add into the genepool is released, it spreads, and then there is no way to ever get it out.. what would happen if they continued with the terminator gene research? and they released it in say, corn ..new improved fast growing sweet corn, with RX17 geoplasm addedum series 137..you'll luv it... and you plant it..and series 137 just happens to be the one that has a terminator gene, meaning, it doesn't reproduce, all seeds are sterile, you can't save the ssed for the next year...corn pollen travels for several miles...and guess wot, you just doomed everyone's corn crop in a 10 mile block, as the corn pollenates yer neighbors..now, who cares right, you may ask..so, they have to buy new seed...from monsanto of course...what about the folks the world over who save seed, for generation upon generation..all that will be gone we don't know wot could happen when we tinker with genes...we always picture scientists carefully inserting DNA into other cells, and all that,.....its not like that at all..some goombah in a lad has either the microscopic equivalent of a shotgun and blows the gene sequences into the cell and waits to see wot happens(they have aims and goals, and kinda try and all, but, ,...) er they add the genetic sequences they want to a virus to piggyback it into a cell and go from there...(breaking the barriers the cell has set up to prevent this sort of thing, meaning this gene package could easily spread to other species as well) i agree wholeheartedly that the raising of animals for meat, to produce milk for us, to "farm" fur and the like is horrid, its destructive, its cruel, it uses tons of resources, its polluting, etc..but, to downplay GMO is frightening to me to say the very least... I've stopped eating(er at least tried to) all canola and corn products that aren't organic..which is getting harder and harder, as everything has soy flour, corn meal, corn syrup, etc in it nowadays.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
