Guest guest Report post Posted April 30, 2003 In a message dated 4/30/03 11:35:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Snowbow writes: They are :-( I know there's lots more than this, but the two things that I know of are.... 1. The Queen Bee has her wings clipped so she can't fly away to form a hive in a new area. 2. The honey which is taken is intended to make baby bees healthy - it is replaces by a sweet substance which is completely lacking in the necessary nutrients, so the baby bees get ill and don't grow into healthy adult bees. I'm sure there's much more, but that's enough for me! bees are also killed off in t he winter in cold climates....since the food the bees need is honey, most would die of starvation come the return of the cold, so, a good portion of the hive is often put to death, only keepin the queen and a few workiers, so, she is forced to start over again come spring... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 30, 2003 I am new to veganism so I have been reading alot on the web. I have heard there are alot of differene resaons for veganism like health reson, ect. I found this article and thought you might enjoy it Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals (Stepaniak).(If you are thinking to yourself, "But I'm a vegan for health reasons" or "I'm a vegan for environmental reasons," please reconsider how you label yourself. Unlike the word vegetarian, the word vegan specifically implies moral concern for animals, and this concern extends to all areas of life, not just diet. If you do not believe in animal equality, please consider referring to yourself as someone who doesn't eat animal products or as one who follows a plant-based diet. Additionally, anyone who eats honey, yet refers to herself as a vegan, makes life difficult for other vegans--it's like having someone who eats fish and calls herself a vegetarian. When a vegetarian comes along, it is much harder for her to explain that fish is not acceptable for vegetarians.) Also, I have not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was wondering what the animal rights issues might be with honey bees? Are they mistreated? The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 30, 2003 Hi Surya > Also, I have not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was wondering what the animal rights issues might be with > honey bees? Are they mistreated? They are :-( I know there's lots more than this, but the two things that I know of are.... 1. The Queen Bee has her wings clipped so she can't fly away to form a hive in a new area. 2. The honey which is taken is intended to make baby bees healthy - it is replaces by a sweet substance which is completely lacking in the necessary nutrients, so the baby bees get ill and don't grow into healthy adult bees. I'm sure there's much more, but that's enough for me! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 The honey--bee puke--is the bees' food during the winter. Sometimes, during the collection process, the beekeepers kill bees. They also clip the wings of the queen bee to prevent her traveling. They've also been known to burn the hives during unproductive months. Which makes me feel a little bit guilty about buying Tom's of Maine decongestant syrup--finding a decent cough and cold medicine without honey is tough, but I swear it makes me feel better. If I could find a natural product without honey, I would (provided I didn't have to spend an arm and a leg to do so). Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- Surya Burdick <californiagnomes reasons behind veganism Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:59:12 -0700 (PDT) I am new to veganism so I have been reading alot on the web. I have heard there are alot of differene resaons for veganism like health reson, ect. I found this article and thought you might enjoy it Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals (Stepaniak).(If you are thinking to yourself, " But I'm a vegan for health reasons " or " I'm a vegan for environmental reasons, " please reconsider how you label yourself. Unlike the word vegetarian, the word vegan specifically implies moral concern for animals, and this concern extends to all areas of life, not just diet. If you do not believe in animal equality, please consider referring to yourself as someone who doesn't eat animal products or as one who follows a plant-based diet. Additionally, anyone who eats honey, yet refers to herself as a vegan, makes life difficult for other vegans--it's like having someone who eats fish and calls herself a vegetarian. When a vegetarian comes along, it is much harder for her to explain that fish is not acceptable for vegetarians.) Also, I have not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was wondering what the animal rights issues might be with honey bees? Are they mistreated? The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. _______________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware that it's now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them with new stock the next spring. Dave ---- 30 April 2003 19:34:54 Re: reasons behind veganism Hi Surya > Also, I have not been eating honey as I know it isn't vegan. I was wondering what the animal rights issues might be with > honey bees? Are they mistreated? They are :-( I know there's lots more than this, but the two things that I know of are... 1. The Queen Bee has her wings clipped so she can't fly away to form a hive in a new area. 2. The honey which is taken is intended to make baby bees healthy - it is replaces by a sweet substance which is completely lacking in the necessary nutrients, so the baby bees get ill and don't grow into healthy adult bees. I'm sure there's much more, but that's enough for me! BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 , " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote: > On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware that it's > now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them with new > stock the next spring. > > Dave Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale bee keepers I've spoken to. Also I don't see any problem with eating home produced garden/orchard scale honey. Certainly more sustainable than using imported sugar with all the food miles, land exploitation, industrialised pharming issues this entails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 I'll try to find it, Graham, but don't hold your breath. I seem to remember that it referred more to larger honey producing operations, as they would receive far greater price breaks when restocking their bee populations. I'll put that CD in the post to you this weekend, btw. Sorry for the delay. Dave ---- 01 May 2003 18:22:39 Re: reasons behind veganism , " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote: > On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware that it's > now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them with new > stock the next spring. > > Dave Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale bee keepers I've spoken to. Also I don't see any problem with eating home produced garden/orchard scale honey. Certainly more sustainable than using imported sugar with all the food miles, land exploitation, industrialised pharming issues this entails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Here's some: From www.vegan.com/faq.html Q. What's the buzz about honey? A. Many vegans choose to eliminate honey from their diets because they believe honey belongs to the bees, just as cows' milk belongs to the cows. In addition, many people object to the cruelty inherent in beekeeping: some bees are invariably killed when the beekeeper gathers honey, and some beekeepers burn their hives at the end of each year. From http://www.resanigo.most.org.pl/zwierzeta/honey.html Many believe that bees are not harmed in any way when they are used for making honey. This, could not be further from the truth. In the North, it is not profitable to keep bees throughout the winter, thus they are killed. One way that this is done is by dousing the hive with petroleum, then burning it. Other times they are simply left to starve to death, after the honey is taken. Hives are burned when there is a disease outbreak. In addition, some bees are killed because they eat honey but do not do enough work. This is usually done at the larval stage. And on the Vegan Society's site http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info24 html, while they don't go as far as this, they do state that Queen bees are killed every year or two: Queen bees are artificially inseminated with sperm obtained from decapitated bees. Queens are systematically slaughtered every two years because over a period of time their egg producing abilities decline so their whole hive becomes unproductive and uneconomic. In Israel they are killed and requeened every year. Though it was from a different source that I originally read about it. Dave ---- 01 May 2003 18:33:18 Re: Re: reasons behind veganism I'll try to find it, Graham, but don't hold your breath. I seem to remember that it referred more to larger honey producing operations, as they would receive far greater price breaks when restocking their bee populations. I'll put that CD in the post to you this weekend, btw. Sorry for the delay. Dave ---- 01 May 2003 18:22:39 Re: reasons behind veganism , " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote: > On top of that, more and more honey farmers are becoming aware that it's > now cheaper to kill all their bees in the autumn and replace them with new > stock the next spring. > > Dave Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale bee keepers I've spoken to. Also I don't see any problem with eating home produced garden/orchard scale honey. Certainly more sustainable than using imported sugar with all the food miles, land exploitation, industrialised pharming issues this entails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 , " Dave " <tfalbb@f...> wrote: > I'll try to find it, Graham, but don't hold your breath. I seem to remember > that it referred more to larger honey producing operations, as they would > receive far greater price breaks when restocking their bee populations. > We did 'honey argument' on another list last week, here's a repost of some bits of discussion on then alt.food.vegan newsgroup a while back, which I will follow up with a reply on that list from a bee keeper. A bit long but useful if you want to step beyond the cliches about 'bee puke' and such like; > can you expand on what the beekeepers said...? Well here's some extracts from some e-conversations a while back- i'll follow this with a reply I had from a bee-keeper. I've also talked to a couple of bee keepers in the real world who basically confirm the points made. Sorry it's a bit jumbled up, but there are a number of interesting points made amongst this; >There was a thread way back when on the subject of bees & honey- not *all* vegans follow the 'party line' on the honey question- personally i don't eat honey, but wouldn't have any problem with doing so if it was a product of a permaculture orchard system- others disagree- anyway, I've just had a delve back through the a.f.v. archives at Google, here's some of what I posted in the earlier thread... ralpher <ralpher@h...> wrote in message news:zm9D7.261962$bY5.1046253@n... > yet another question but i am so interested. do vegans eat honey? > > We had 'the honey question' before back in May- here's a repost of some of my thoughts from a permaculture perspective then, together with extracts from the follow up threads from here as well as alt.permaculture & off list... Sorry if it goes on a bit, but you will see that there is a diversity of views on this subject.... Cheers Graham www.landandliberty.co.uk --- ----- > As for honey, vegetarians eat honey, but vegans don't, however, I do know > quite a few people who avoid all animal products except honey on the grounds > that honey is probably a lot more environmentally sound than sugar. Indeed. I've given this quite a bit of thought from a permaculture perspective- bees are pollinators and play an important (in fact essential) part in edible ecosystems such as orchards, fruit gardens, even allotments, etc, indeed any edible landscape which includes flowering plants. They are part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic system, therefore to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as a yield from that system provided this is done with sensitivity and respect to the bees needs. The transaction could even be said to be mutually beneficial (in return for the excess honey harvested, the land steward (the human element in the system) is providing a rich and diverse habitat, place to set up a hive, organically growing flowering plants, etc)- this is not the same in my view as large scale commercial honey production which cares nothing for the bees' welfare and where the relationship and their growing environment is exploitative and artificial/industrialised (I confess I don't know a great deal about commercial honey production, but I'm pretty sure in terms of ethics and ecological accountability it's the same as all large scale food production, where the cow/bee/soya bean (Megacorp PLC doesn't differentiate) is viewed purely as a commodity rather than a component within a total system with intrinsic qualities, needs and value/worth measured beyond purely financial terms). It's another one of those issues where sustainability conflicts with 'full on' veganism- as you pointed out small, local scale honey production (an animal product) is more environmentally sound than sugar production (an animal free product, but which leaves in it's ecological footprint in food miles, land loss, exploited plantation workers, degraded and eroded land, cash crop economies, etc etc.) Personally I havn't eaten honey since 1984, but probably would if able to source it from a supplier such as that I have mentioned above eg, as a local product from a sustainable permaculture or organic garden, orchard, farm, etc. I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but decided it would be too much work/responsibility + they might be incompatible with my kids... Cheers for now, -- Graham Burnett www.landandliberty.co.uk --- - Reply from alt.permaculture ng; Graham Burnett <gb0063551@c...> wrote in message news:XfUM6.1345$hk3.275343@n... > Hi- at the risk of stiring up a hornet's nest (excuse pun), I thought > alt.pc-er's might be interested in this posting I've just sent to > alt.food.vegan... Hi Graham, Interesting post... .. They are > part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic system, therefore > to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as a yield from that system > provided this is done with sensitivity and respect to the bees needs. The > transaction could even be said to be mutually beneficial (in return for the > excess honey harvested, the land steward (the human element in the system) > is providing a rich and diverse habitat, place to set up a hive, organically > growing flowering plants, etc)- We're probably the world's worst beekeepers - we bought a hive, left it outside so that I'd eventully get around to copying the dimensions and make a couple more hives. In the meantime, a swarm of bees moved in... but, because we hadn't left the frames inside, they built their own somewhat more anarchic version, and we've left them to their own devices ever since - never taken an ounce of honey, but, as you say, they're useful pollinators, and it's interesting and peaceful to sit and watch them coming and going on a warm day. this is not the same in my view as large > scale commercial honey production which cares nothing for the bees' welfare > and where the relationship and their growing environment is exploitative and > artificial/industrialised (I confess I don't know a great deal about > commercial honey production, but I'm pretty sure in terms of ethics and > ecological accountability it's the same as all large scale food production, > where the cow/bee/soya bean (Megacorp PLC doesn't differentiate) is viewed > purely as a commodity rather than a component within a total system with > intrinsic qualities, needs and value/worth measured beyond purely financial > terms). Most beekeepers would feed the bees a sugar syrup at some stage - the kinder keeper wouldn't rob the colony of all it's honey, and would use the syrup to ensure that they had enough feed over the winter. Commercial beekeepers, I believe, keep the syrup topped up all year, on the basis that it's wasted effort for them to go flying around collecting nectar... the bees are effectively converting man- made sugar, and that's why there's such a difference between commercial and other honey. > > It's another one of those issues where sustainability conflicts with 'full > on' veganism- as you pointed out small, local scale honey production (an > animal product) is more environmentally sound than sugar production (an > animal free product, but which leaves in it's ecological footprint in food > miles, land loss, exploited plantation workers, degraded and eroded land, > cash crop economies, etc etc.) It can get even more complicated - honey has several medicinal properties. eg. truly _local_ honey, collected by bees from the local range of flowering plants, is said to relieve hay fever. So the vegan would have the dilemma of choosing an antihistamine from some pharmaceutical giant (hiss) over the natural (or some might even say 'magical') local product... > > Personally I havn't eaten honey since 1984, but probably would if able to > source it from a supplier such as that I have mentioned above eg, as a local > product from a sustainable permaculture or organic garden, orchard, farm, > etc. There are beekeepers everywhere, and they're usually kind, patient and helpful people - bees are all about co-operation, and I suppose it rubs off. Unfortuantely, Varroa has killed off a lot of honey bees in the UK and Europe, and it's now in Ireland aswell. I don't know whether this has had much effect on availability. > I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but decided it > would be too much work/responsibility + they might be incompatible with my > kids... I may have the answer - there was an item on Radio 4 recently about Mason Bees, See http://www.oxbeeco.com/ A snippet from their site : " These docile bees are safe with children and pets, are excellent pollinators of fruit trees, raspberries, early strawberries and are fond of a range of flowers and tree blossom. The Red Mason Bee (Osmia rufa) is widespread in England and Wales and particularly likes the range of flowers and trees found in domestic gardens. It is a more efficient pollinator of fruit crops than the honeybee and by attracting them to your garden not only will you notice improved fruit crops - apples, plums, pears, strawberries and raspberries - but the bees also visit a wide range of garden flowers. The bees are active from late March to the beginning of July. The Red Mason Bee is not aggressive, a female will sting only if very roughly handled between the fingers and even then, it is a puny thing compared to a wasp or honeybee. " So vegans could provide a cheap nest box (this is nothing like a honey bee hive) and get all the non-exploitative benefits of having bees in the garden... If you want to quote any of the above at alt.food.vegan, help yourself. Of course, it doesn't answer the question of how to sweeten your custard :-) TTFN Mark --- ----- Extract from reply from alt.food.vegan, with my follow up; tharg <t_thargson> wrote in message news:tg8fg7flgkoo45@x... > In my opinion, honey is made by bees for bees. Why should I steal it? > > But do we accept that we are part of an ecosystem ourselves, interacting and entering into relationships with other elements within that ecosystem, or do we try to stand totally outside of it? We are a part of nature, not apart from it. Bees can be highly beneficially integrated into an otherwise fully vegan organic edible landscape, to me it would make sense to make use of other yields that they provide. This isn't 'stealing' in my opinion, especially if it reduces reliance on products imported from outside of an otherwise 'closed' system (eg, refined sugar grown far away on land which has been 'stolen' from it's original usage), Cheers, -- Graham Burnett --- ------- -- Here's another reply from a fellow vegan to whom I copied this post who isn't (as far as I know) a r to this ng (probably got better things to do with his time); Cheers, Graham I disagree on the grounds that the honey bee Apis mellifera (an 'alien' species to this country), from S.E Asia, is not needed to pollinate flowers as there are many other insects that do this. For example the bumble bee which has many different species. Indeed small scale honey production may be more sustainable but is it really 'surplus honey' you will be taking? Honey, when harvested from bee hives, has to be replaced by a sugar alternative as the bees need their honey to survive and feed their larva. Also is it correct that cane sugar isnt free of animal products due to the refining process using animal products such as bone? I wouldnt want to stopn people using bee hives but there is no way that the bees are really cared for properly. I have heard horror stories about bees wings and other body parts being filtered out of honey, before it is packaged and sold, in commercial production. Still I would sugest that benefical insects should be encouraged to a garden or allotment rather than the honey bee. You can construct bug boxes and other places for bees, wasps and other insects that would happily pollinate your flowers. Bumble bees are on the decline this may help restore their numbers. As a vegan I would be happy to encourage these insects into my garden as permaculture should be about working with nature and especially native fauna. JON tharg <t_thargson> wrote in message news:tgf7qh8jvdr9b5@x... > In my humble opinion Bees make the honey for themselves - it's not my honey > to take so I prefer to let the bees have their honey and I'll use something > else. However I do think that there is quite a difference between > commercial growers who kill their bees over the winter period and very-small > scale operations who take care of their bees in a more sound way. Even so - > as I do not know how individual bee-keepers look after their bees, when I'm > in the healthfood shop looking at the various jars of honey, I leave them on > the shelf. As there are so many other ways to sweeten foods I like to live > a honey-free existence and I do my best to plant flora that bees go for. > - " Graham Burnett " <grahamburnett@b...> <eco_vegans > Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:49 PM Re: [eco_vegans] Honey & veganism (reposted from alt.food.vegan newsgroup > > > > (There is not, in any meaningful sense, a wild bee population in the UK. > All > > > the honeybees you see are either hived, or have swarmed from a hive in > this > > > or a previous (bee) generation.) > > > > are you talking about wild honeybees or bees? > > This was a repost from afg so I can't say... bit's of the original post were > mine, but this bit wasn't- I've invited the original poster to join here so > that he can express himself directly (esp as this seems a lively thread at > both venues, but going in 2 diffeent directions!).. > > But i'm glad to see this thread has taken on an active life of it's own! > > Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 > We did 'honey argument' on another list last week, here's a repost > of some bits of discussion on then alt.food.vegan newsgroup a while > back, which I will follow up with a reply on that list from a bee > keeper. A bit long but useful if you want to step beyond the cliches > about 'bee puke' and such like; > And here's the reply from the beekeeper; > Well here's some extracts from some e-conversations a while back- > i'll follow this with a reply I had from a bee-keeper. I've also > talked to a couple of bee keepers in the real world who basically > confirm the points made. > And here is a beekepers reply to that last lot; Many of the objections raised by vegans to eating honey are based on misconceptions or ignorance of modern beekeeping.. The modern British honey bee is the result of an 80 year programme of breeding and selection, much of which was carried out by the late Brother Adam of Buckfast Abbey (Devon) and his colleagues, following the virtual extinction of the native British 'black' bee through a disease called Acarine at the time of the First World War. They have been selectively bred for characteristics such as productivity, good temper, disease resistance, disinclination to swarm, over-wintering ability, and so on. (There is not, in any meaningful sense, a wild bee population in the UK. All the honeybees you see are either hived, or have swarmed from a hive in this or a previous (bee) generation.) As a result, they are pretty robust, easy to handle (I never wear gloves) and produce far more honey than they need for their own winter stocks. In a good season, a full colony may produce 150+ lb of honey, while they only need about 30-40 lb for winter stocks. Therefore, surplus honey can be removed without any adverse effects on the bees. The biggest threat to bees is disease: American and European Foul Brood are endemic but treatable if caught early, while the varroa mite and its associated viral diseases have recently migrated here and last year some swarms in Devon began to show signs of varroa having become resistant to treatment. So this sort of thing (quoted from another thread): > We're probably the world's worst beekeepers - we bought a hive, left it > outside so that I'd eventully get around to copying the dimensions and make a couple more hives. In the meantime, a swarm of bees moved in... but, > because we hadn't left the frames inside, they built their own somewhat more anarchic version, and we've left them to their own devices ever since - > never taken an ounce of honey, but, as you say, they're useful pollinators, and it's interesting and peaceful to sit and watch them coming and going on a warm day. -- i.e. leaving a colony in a hive without checking for disease would be regarded by beekeepers as irresponsible, because of the potential for infecting other colonies. In my experience, all beekeepers are concerned for the welfare of their bees. I cannot speak for large scale commercial operations, but even they will take reasonable care because the bees are their livelihood, and if you abuse bees, they *will* complain, with painful consequences. > Most beekeepers would feed the bees a sugar syrup at some stage - the >kinder keeper wouldn't rob the colony of all it's honey, and would use the syrup >to ensure that they had enough feed over the winter. Sugar syrup is used to top up winter feed if needed, and occasionally at other times (such as immediately after hiving a swarm to help them get settled in). Conscientious 'hobby' beekeepers tend to leave enough honey for winter stocks. Commercial beekeepers, I > believe, keep the syrup topped up all year, on the basis that it's wasted > effort for them to go flying around collecting nectar... the bees are > effectively converting man-made sugar, and that's why there's such a > difference between commercial and other honey. The only commercial honey producer I have direct experience of is Buckfast Abbey, and they certainly to not feed sugar all year round. I can't really believe that anyone does this - it would be hugely expensive and quite unnecessary in any but the worst season. > It can get even more complicated - honey has several medicinal properties. > eg. truly _local_ honey, collected by bees from the local range of flowering plants, is said to relieve hay fever. So the vegan would have the dilemma of choosing an antihistamine from some pharmaceutical giant (hiss) over the > natural (or some might even say 'magical') local product... Local honey has to be one of the most healthy, eco-friendly foods you can buy. Which would you rather eat/use: - honey or sugar? - propolis or antibiotics? - beeswax or paraffin wax? Are you going to support small-scale, local beekeeping, or agribusiness, pharmaceuticals and the petrochemical industry? It seems to me that vegans have to face up to this one. > There are beekeepers everywhere, and they're usually kind, patient and > helpful people - bees are all about co-operation, and I suppose it rubs off. Indeed, bees are probably the best model of a truly co-operative species, along with certain kinds of ants. However, I think it would be dangerous to draw too many parallels with human society. For one thing, the queen is the only sexually mature female in the hive, and her job is simply to lay eggs, which she does at the rate of about 2000 per *day* for her productive lifetime, which may be up to 5 years, though usually less. And she only mates once in her lifetime (some say 2-3x) with several drones (male bees). All the work in the hive is done by sexually immature females (workers), while the drones bumble about getting in the way (sounds familiar to some, I know...). BTW - worker bees live 15-30 days during the summer, as much as 3 months in winter. > > I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but decided it would be too much work/responsibility + they might be incompatible with my kids... I would encourage anyone with a garden - even a roof garden in a town - to keep bees unless they or members of their family or immediate neighbours are one of the small number who are allergic to bee stings. One or two hives do not take a lot of looking after, and there are local associations to help out in most areas. Bees hardly ever sting unless provoked. I can open one of my hives, take out and examine frames full of bees, put it all back together all without wearing gloves and I hardly ever get stung. I do wear a veil, as getting stung in the eye can lead to blindness and stings in or near the mouth can be very painful. It is true that a bee - unlike a wasp - will die after stinging a human because of their barbed sting and the elasticity of human skin, which may be one reason they don't do it much - although that may be ascribing them too much intelligence. Another myth is that honey bees 'crowd out' other insects. I see no evidence of this. In fact, the other day I counted 35 bumble bees of at least 3 different species on a patch of phacelia growing within a few feet of a hive cotaining at least 50,000 honey bees. Bumble bees and honeybees are adapted to dfferent plants - bumble bees can feed on red clover, for example, while honey bees cannot and prefer the smaller flowers of white clover. > I may have the answer - there was an item on Radio 4 recently about Mason > Bees, See http://www.oxbeeco.com/ > " These docile bees are safe with children and pets, are excellent > pollinators of fruit trees, raspberries, early strawberries and are fond <snip> > So vegans could provide a cheap nest box (this is nothing like a honey bee > hive) and get all the non-exploitative benefits of having bees in the > garden... Yes, I would encourage this - mason bees are vg pollinators. But if you want the fun and interest of watching one of nature's most perfectly adapted creatures (with a little help from man *ahem* humans *ahem* people - oh fuck it, beekeepers...) plus the undoubted medicinal and health benefits of honey and propolis, plus wonderful beeswax for making skin creams, cosmetics, candles, furniture polish, leather dressing (oops) and so on, then you can't do better than a hive ot two of honey bees. > Bees can be highly beneficially integrated into an otherwise fully vegan > organic edible landscape, to me it would make sense to make use of other > yields that they provide. This isn't 'stealing' in my opinion, especially if it reduces reliance on products imported from outside of an otherwise > 'closed' system (eg, refined sugar grown far away on land which has been > 'stolen' from it's original usage), > Graham Burnett Well put, Graham. Gad \|/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 > > I'll put that CD in the post to you this weekend, btw. Sorry for the delay. > > Dave Which reminds me I owe Rat a CD.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2003 Hi Graham As someone who has obviously done a lot of research into the honey issue.... > They are part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic > system, therefore to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as > a yield from that system provided this is done with sensitivity and > respect to the bees needs. Are you aware of any beekeepers who use such method of harvesting honey? My understanding is that it is exceedingly rare amongst bee keepers to harvest honey in this way, and that they do not simply take whatever is left over after the bees have all moved on. I would be very surprised simply because the amount of honey left over would be pretty insignificant, and I can't see it being economically viable to harvest honey in this way. Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which is... the word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not consume any products which come from animals - since honey comes from an animal, anyone who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves vegan. In the same way that vegetarians get (rightly) upset when fish eaters call themselves vegetarian. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 Hi Graham > The modern British honey bee is the result of an 80 year programme of > breeding and selection, much of which was carried out by the late > Brother Adam of Buckfast Abbey (Devon) and his colleagues, following > the virtual extinction of the native British 'black' bee through a > disease called Acarine at the time of the First World War. They have > been selectively bred for characteristics such as productivity, good > temper, disease resistance, disinclination to swarm, over-wintering > ability, and so on. Ah - so slavery is OK as long as the slaves have been bred for the purpose? The way I read this whole post from this beekeeper is: beekeepers breed bees for their own profit and enslave them. Is that something vegans should be happy to support? I think not. Also... > Sugar syrup is used to top up winter feed if needed, and > occasionally at other times (such as immediately after hiving a > swarm to help them get settled in). So, it's perfectly acceptable to remove the high nutrient honey, and replace it with something which has none of the necessary nutrients for bees, and therefore causes illness and death. I don't see this as being animal friendly. Graham, I am very happy for people to make their own decisions about what they eat - if you want to eat honey, that is your decision, but I think your attempts to claim that supporting this business is in line with the vegan ethic ranks alongside meat eaters claiming that humans are designed to eat meat. I think it would be better to be honest with yourself - you want to eat honey - please don't insult our intelligence by trying to make out that it does no harm. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 19/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 A vegan does not eat or use animal products. Bees are animals. Honey comes from bees. Vegans do not eat or use animal products. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 > > I think it would be better to be honest with yourself - you want to eat > honey - please don't insult our intelligence by trying to make out that it > does no harm. Um, how is intelegence insulted by posting several different viewpoints (please don't attribute all the points posted to me, it's clear that they arn't)? I think we are all adult enough to make up our own minds, my intention was merely to broaden the debate beyond the 'bee puke' cliches. It's up to the individual whether they use honey or not, personally I would use home produced, garden scale honey from a person who I know or am convinced harvests in a sustainable way, if you choose to exclude honey I have no problem with that either and would not seek to persuade you otherwise. I just find it difficuklt to accept that some vegans fell they are able to take the moral high ground on this issue whilst still consuming cash crop, chemically grown, imported sugar (most of which has also been purified using bone charcoal as well). BTW I would query whether those who exclude honey from their diets also exclude fruit and nuts, as virtually all cultivated apples, pears, hazels, plums, cherries, etc, etc are grown on grafted trees, the majority of which will have been the result of a scion from a parent tree having been grafted to a rootstock using bees wax. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 , " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...> wrote: > A vegan does not eat or use animal products. Bees are animals. Honey comes > from bees. > > Vegans do not eat or use animal products. You are repeating yourself. Repeating yourself. Graham :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 I think the whole argument is based on whether your main interest is veganism or permaculture! Jo - " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett Friday, May 02, 2003 9:15 AM Re: reasons behind veganism > > > > > I think it would be better to be honest with yourself - you want > to eat > > honey - please don't insult our intelligence by trying to make out > that it > > does no harm. > > Um, how is intelegence insulted by posting several different > viewpoints (please don't attribute all the points posted to me, it's > clear that they arn't)? I think we are all adult enough to make up > our own minds, my intention was merely to broaden the debate beyond > the 'bee puke' cliches. It's up to the individual whether they use > honey or not, personally I would use home produced, garden scale > honey from a person who I know or am convinced harvests in a > sustainable way, if you choose to exclude honey I have no problem > with that either and would not seek to persuade you otherwise. I > just find it difficuklt to accept that some vegans fell they are > able to take the moral high ground on this issue whilst still > consuming cash crop, chemically grown, imported sugar (most of which > has also been purified using bone charcoal as well). > > BTW I would query whether those who exclude honey from their diets > also exclude fruit and nuts, as virtually all cultivated apples, > pears, hazels, plums, cherries, etc, etc are grown on grafted trees, > the majority of which will have been the result of a scion from a > parent tree having been grafted to a rootstock using bees wax. > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 Just trying to emphasise the point which it appeared you had overlooked. Jo - " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett Friday, May 02, 2003 9:16 AM Re: reasons behind veganism > , " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...> > wrote: > > A vegan does not eat or use animal products. Bees are animals. > Honey comes > > from bees. > > > > Vegans do not eat or use animal products. > > You are repeating yourself. Repeating yourself. > > Graham :-) > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 In a message dated 5/1/03 10:27:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, grahamburnett writes: Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale bee keepers I've spoken to. its the case here in the states...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 In a message dated 5/2/03 7:50:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, grahamburnett writes: What even on the small, orchard/garden scale I'm refering to? most bee growers here are large conglomerates...or at least, that is the direction things are heading most small orchards hire outside apiaries and the like,...folks drive there bees in and leave them for a week or two to pollenate the fruit trees, and then the bee keeper comes in and moves them to another site..... i would hazard a guess that small local producer, especially one that is organic, should be better..but..they are getting harder and harder to find... fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 , " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...> wrote: > Just trying to emphasise the point which it appeared you had overlooked. > I see. I see :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 , " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote: > Hi Graham > > As someone who has obviously done a lot of research into the honey issue.... > > > They are part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic > > system, therefore to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as > > a yield from that system provided this is done with sensitivity and > > respect to the bees needs. > > Are you aware of any beekeepers who use such method of harvesting honey? My > understanding is that it is exceedingly rare amongst bee keepers to harvest > honey in this way, and that they do not simply take whatever is left over > after the bees have all moved on. I would be very surprised simply because > the amount of honey left over would be pretty insignificant, and I can't see > it being economically viable to harvest honey in this way. The figures I've heard from talking to beekeepers are that many hives produce two or three times the amount of honey they require. A sesnitive bee keeper would keep well within such parameters. The only honey I have bought (very rarely) is indeed produced as part of a cycling system, ie, from an orchard in North essex were the bees are their prinmarily as pollinators, with the honey being an excess yield from the system. I also had a long talk with the bee keeper, who I happened to meet whilst wandering about in the orchard, this person clearly cared about his hives and bees, in fact he was in the process of protecting the hives over the winter months from maruading woodpeckers and mice, certainly not setting light to them or pulling off the queen bee's head. This, or honey produced in similar circumstances, is the only honey I would use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 > Of course, all of this doesn't get away from my basic view which is... the > word " vegan " has a very specific meaning of one who does not consume any > products which come from animals - since honey comes from an animal, anyone > who consumes it should not " blur the lines " by calling themselves vegan. To me it's shorthand, a guideline rather than a strict party line, especially asa person who excludes animal products principally for environmental/ecological reasons. i'll start refering to myself as a " vegan apart from once or twice a year buying a jar of honey from an orchard where I am convinced it has been sensitively harvested and is part of a wider eco-system " if others agree to refer to themselves as " vegan apart from using sugar that has been refined with bone charcoal, eats fruit from trees that have been grafted with bees wax, eats crops from land that has been fertilised with animal manure that is a by-product of the industrialised animal slaughter industry and has had various treatments applied to it to kill insect or rodent pests " . At one time, when I first became vegan, the official Vegan Society 'line' was that honey was a matter for individual conscience (I wouldn't even have considered eating honey then BTW). Appartently I'm told the 'line' is now 'no honey, ever', but I'm afraid I still prefer to make up my own mind... Cheers, Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 , EBbrewpunx@c... wrote: > In a message dated 5/1/03 10:27:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > grahamburnett@b... writes: > > > > Have you a source for this? Certainly not the case with small scale > > bee keepers I've spoken to. > > its the case here in the states...... What even on the small, orchard/garden scale I'm refering to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2003 Hi Graham > I think we are all adult enough to make up > our own minds, my intention was merely to broaden the debate beyond > the 'bee puke' cliches. While I'm all for widening a debate, it was already way wider than " bee puke cliches " ! BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites