Re:

November 9, 2004

well Peter I see we do agree on some things .... =o]]

I have started writing a letter to the goon hopefully it may be published

I recommend that everyone do the same

all the best

Craig

peter hurd [swpgh01]Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: Re:

What a load of old tosh!, just what I would expect from the Observer!

The Valley Vegan........Craig Dearth <cd39 wrote:

this is an article in the Observer in the UKI feel like strangling the man who wrote itit is so flawed I think he got his info from the milk advisory boardthe endanger species hunters club, and the baby seal clubbing club...ugghhhhave a read you'll see what I meanall the bestCraigThey hailed it as a wonderfood. Soya not only destroys forests and small farmers - it can also be bad for your health Anthony BarnettSunday November 7, 2004The Observer On a crisp winter morning in Belfast, Dr Lorraine Anderson was nearing the end of her doctorate research project. She had spent weeks hunched over a microscope looking at samples of sperm. Anderson was trying to figure out what made some sperm move slower than others. As a specialist in reproductive medicine at Belfast's Royal Maternity Hospital she was particularly interested in why some samples moved so sluggishly that they would have trouble reaching and fertilising an egg. Anderson knew that a sperm's 'motility' was one of the critical factors in fertility. 'It doesn't matter how many sperm a man's got; if they can't get from A to B then there's little chance of reproduction,' she says. Anderson's 'eureka' moment arrived when a complex analysis of the samples she was working on revealed that the seminal liquid surrounding the slower-moving sperm contained chemicals called isoflavones. These compounds are also known as phyto-oestrogens or plant-oestrogens because they mimic oestrogen, the powerful female hormone. These highly active compounds are found in large concentrations in soya. Indeed such are the doses of these chemicals, a woman drinking two glasses of soya milk a day over the course of a month will see the timing of her menstrual cycle alter. It has been estimated that infants who are fed soya formula exclusively receive an amount of oestrogen equivalent to five birth control pills every day. For a growing number of scientists the question is this: if such a strong biologically active compound is found in soya, what is its effect on humans regularly eating or drinking products made from the bean? Advertiser links Bargain DVD Recorders on eBay.co.ukYou'll find a fabulous range of new and used DVD recorders...ebay.co.ukWhich? Online Latest DVD Recorder ReportUp-to-date DVD recorder guide. Expert assessment, test...trial.which.co.ukSave on DVD Recorder at ShopgenieSave on DVD recorders at ShopGenie, the shopping search...shopgenie.co.ukIn recent years the food industry has wasted no time in extolling soya's alleged health benefits, claiming it can lower cholesterol, help with menopausal systems, ward off osteoporosis and even reduce the risks of some cancers. However, aside from research linking soya to reduced male fertility, studies now link the phyto-oestrogens found in the plant to an increased risk of other types of cancer. It has also been claimed that it damages brain function in men and causes hidden developmental abnormalities in infants. Some even attribute the early onset of puberty in western women to the spread of soya in diets. Certainly, Dr Anderson has no doubt about the conclusions of her own research: the more soya a man eats, she believes, the more difficulty he will have in fertilising an egg. Anderson's head of department, Professor Neil McClure, is one of Britain's leading fertility experts and he is already acting on the results. 'If a couple were having trouble conceiving and the man's sperm was a borderline case, then I have seen enough evidence from these studies to advise a change in his diet to minimise soya.' But this is much easier said than done. Today, soya is no longer just the preserve of the vegetarian or the Asian food junkie but is an invisible ingredient in nearly everything we eat, from pork pies and breakfast cereals to mayonnaise and margarines. Soya is used to 'bulk out' and bind many processed foods, such as sausages, lasagne, beefburgers and chicken nuggets and it allows food firms to claim a higher protein content on the label. Some research estimates that soya is present in more than 70 per cent of all supermarket products and widely used by most fast food chains. The reason for its rapid rise in popularity is that it is both a very cheap source of protein and - when crushed - a source of high-quality vegetable oil. No fragment of the bean is wasted. Even the husk is used as a source of fibre in breads, cereals and snacks. The oil extracted from soya is the most consumed vegetable oil in the world, and is used in margarines, salad dressings and cooking oils. Food labels will simply list soya oil as vegetable oil. During the oil extraction, the bean also produces a substance called lecithin. This is a valuable emulsifier that helps fat mix with water. It is a critical ingredient of the baking and confectionery worlds, as it prevents ingredients in food from separating. So the food labels of many of our favourite chocolate bars, biscuits and cakes will list lecithin as an ingredient without linking it to soya. Of course, it is not just the 'invisible' market in soya that has enjoyed rapid growth. Soya milk is one of the success stories of the last few years. Sales have rocketed by 20 per cent per annum and it is now one of the fastest growing drinks in the country. Starbucks now offers frothed up soya milk with its cappuccinos and supermarkets have invested in their own brands. For those who suffer a strong allergic reaction to cow's milk or follow a vegan diet, soya milk has always been an important option. But others drink it as a less fattening alternative to cow's milk. What they don't realise is that it also gives them an injection of a chemical that mimics oestrogen. One industry source admitted that the breakthrough for soya milk came when retailers were persuaded to put soya milk into the chilled cabinet, giving it the illusion of being a fresh product. Some soya milk adverts tell the reader to look for it in the fresh food section. In reality, soya milk is no more than bean juice with some added flavouring to make it more palatable. As well as the growth in popularity of soya products for direct human consumption, some 90 per cent of the 200 million tonnes of soya produced around the world each year is used to feed animals. Whether it's beef, lamb, bacon or processed chicken, it is highly likely that the meat comes from an animal reared on a diet based on soya meal. In some parts of the world, soya has long been a small part of animal diets, but after the BSE crisis revealed the problems of feeding cattle with animal parts, the soya alternative was taken up with gusto.So when you eat a piece of meat, the chances are you are also consuming some soya as well. Towering proud like a church steeple, the 200ft-tall silver silo in the Argentinian town of Las Lajitas, shines in the South American sun. These huge storage silos, filled with dried soya beans have become the new temples of Argentina. Today's plantation owners listen to a gospel preached by US biotech corporation Monsanto. Located more than 1,000 miles north west of Buenos Aires and close to the Chilean and Bolivian borders, Las Lajitas is the agricultural capital of a region that has seen untrammelled expansion in soya production. Where only a few years ago thick native forests filled the landscape, now all that stands between Las Lajitas and the Andes shimmering on the horizon are green pastures sprouting soya. Satellite photos of the region show the dramatic change. Only 15 years ago the area appeared from space as a lush green carpet, now it resembles a threadbare rug covered with the spreading stains of soya plantations. The figures speak for themselves: in 1971 soya was only farmed on 37,000 hectares; now the area covered is more than 14m hectares and rising. Soya now occupies more land in Argentina than all other crops added together, covering more than half the country's arable land. It is predicted that 10,000 hectares of forest is being lost every year - the equivalent of 20 football fields an hour. If this continues, in five years' time the country's native forests will disappear completely. It is a scenario that is troubling conservationists. 'This is a precious habitat that is home to many rare animals and plants. We are in danger of losing it all in a race to feed European and Chinese chickens.,' says Emiliano Ezcurra of Greenpeace. 'How many jaguars and toucans will have to be killed to feed Danish pigs?' But the campaigners are up against some of the world's most powerful corporations who now control the market in soya. In the mid-Nineties, with Argentina facing an economic crisis, Monsanto stepped in with an offer of salvation. Its message: plant our genetically modified Roundup Ready soya beans that are much easier to grow than conventional soya and the money will flow in. And so it happened. For the lucky few it has indeed been a godsend. A handful of soya barons are making handsome profits and the government of Argentina is enjoying improved tax revenues from exporting their soya to Europe and China. But for many others, the drive to cover every spare hectare with soya comes at a high price. More than 200 miles north of Las Lajitas is the small rural Argentinian village of Pizarro. Carlo Odonez and his family run the main store. He was made redundant from the country's largest oil company a few years back and, with his payoff, brought his family to Pizarro with the dream of being an organic beekeeper. Yet all around the village, protected forest - where he hoped to keep his hives - is being destroyed to plant soya. The community of peasant farmers that has lived off this land for generations rearing cattle, pigs and chickens as well as producing cheese will soon be forced from their homes with nowhere to go. 'Nobody can see a future in staying here,' says Odonez, as he explains how the loss of trees will lead to flooding and changes in the local climate. Local people are also afraid of the mists of chemicals they have heard are sprayed on the soya. 'We hear many stories from other communities who have lived near the soya plantations,' said Odonez. 'Some say they have become ill from breathing in the chemicals they spray. Also we hear some have skin diseases.' Worst hit by the land clearances are the indigenous tribes that have lived for thousands of years in the forests. The Wichi people are an aboriginal group who still rely on a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. They use their dogs to hunt wild boar in the forests and collect four different types of honey from hollows in the trees. They make baskets and bags from local plants and use forest flora as a source of traditional medicine to cure their sick. Now they face extinction as their tribal lands are ripped apart. A mile from one of their encampments the latest deforestation is occurring. Giant bulldozers linked together with huge metal chains drive through the forests literally tearing up everything in their path. The felled timber and leaves are piled high in 1km rows as far as the eye can see, ready to be set alight. It is hard for these people to understand the destruction of a habitat they have lived in harmony with for so long. 'Why is the white man destroying our lands?' asks one of the tribal chiefs. It is difficult to explain that it's to be used to feed animals in Europe and China. If Argentina's soya revolution brought local economic benefits, perhaps there would be less hostility. But the genius of Monsanto's Roundup Ready soya is that it allows the crop to be farmed intensively with minimal labour. Only one worker is needed for every 400 hectares compared to more than 70 on a traditional citrus farm. By inserting a special gene into the plant's DNA, Monsanto's scientists discovered they could make it immune to a very powerful herbicide called glyphosate. Farmers can then spray this over their crops once or twice a year and everything but the soya is exterminated leaving the soya to grow vigorously with highly profitable yields and little maintenance. So more than 300,000 farmworkers have lost their jobs. Most head towards the big cities like Buenos Aires or Salta to find work, but with few skills they end up unemployed and homeless. The story of the soya boom in South America, is not just limited to the GM revolution in Argentina. While other countries have not embraced Monsanto's beans with such gusto, such is the rush to cash in on the green gold that similar scenarios are being played out in Brazil, Paraguay and Bolivia. The marketing men have even dubbed the region the Republic of Soya. For Brazil the environmental consequences of non-GM soya have been as dramatic as in Argentina. Newly released satellite imaging data has revealed a 40 per cent jump in deforestation in Brazil's Amazon rainforests. The massive leap is the worst acceleration in the loss of tropical jungle since 1995, with much of the destruction being blamed on the illegal logging of land for soya production. Unlike Argentina, the majority of soya crops grown in Brazil are GM-free, although parts of southern Brazil are becoming contaminated with transgenic plants as farmers smuggle Monsanto seeds across the borders in the belief that they are more lucrative. In September, the World Wide Fund for Nature published a detailed report on the impact of soya expansion in South America. It makes depressing reading. The WWF calculates that nearly 22 million hectares of forests and savannah in South America - an area about the size of Great Britain - will have been wiped out by 2020. It says the crop has triggered soil erosion, siltation of waterways, widespread use of toxic chemicals and pesticides and road building through some of the world's most delicate habitats. On the main road heading out of Las Lajitas, the slogan emblazoned on the giant advertising billboard reads ' mejor agriculture, mejor futuro ' which translates as 'better farming, better future'. For many of the people in South America, it is a promise that rings hollow. 'Inside the soya bean you'll find the power to feed a family and feed the world. You'll find the ability to improve health and combat diseases. You'll find a unique combination of properties that makes the soya bean as important to animal nutrition and industry as it is to human health. In short, you'd find the magic in the magic bean.' This is the world according to a brochure published by US multinational Archer Daniel Midlands, one of the handful of corporations along with Monsanto that today controls the multi-billion dollar soya industry. Others include Cargill, Bunge and Louis Dreyfuss. Every weekday morning at 8.30am the bell rings at the Chicago Board of Trade to announce the beginning of the day's action. Dozens of brokers, wearing their famous bright-coloured jackets,wave their arms in a frenzy, trying to make big bucks for their investment clients on guessing what will be the future price of soya. Today soya is traded as an international commodity, just like oil or gold. Depending on estimates of weather patterns, demand for animal food or general geopolitical pressures the price will rise or fall. By the end of the day millions will have been made or lost on these minute fluctuations. With so many commercial interests dependent on the continued appetite for soya across the globe, those few telling a different story face an uphill struggle in getting their voice heard. Perhaps the most graphic illustration of this was in the US three years ago. After a huge lobbying effort from the soya industry, the US Food and Drug Administration agreed to issue a health claim that eating 25g of soya protein a day can help lower cholesterol and thus reduce the risk of heart disease. This was a view later backed by Britain's Food Standards Agency. With heart disease one of the biggest killers in the West, this is clearly a major benefit for soya and has allowed many food companies to stamp labels on soya products claiming they help reduce cholesterol. In such a health and diet-obsessed culture this has been a big boost for the soya industry. However, it is very difficult for any individual to eat the necessary 25g a day of soya - this is equivalent to five soya yoghurts or three large glasses of soya milk. Yet for two senior food scientists who worked within the US Food and Drug Administration, the official backing of the health claim - which ignored the impact of plant-oestrogens in soya - was potentially dangerous. In a highly unusual move Dr Daniel Sheehan and Dr Daniel Doerge wrote a letter of protest to the department of Health and Human Services at the FDA denouncing the claim, concerned that the problems of soya consumption were being ignored. An extract from their letter seen by Observer Food Monthly states: 'We oppose this health claim because there is abundant evidence that some of the isoflavones [phytoestrogens] found in soy demonstrate toxicity in oestrogen-sensitive tissues and in the thyroid. This is true for a number of species, including humans. Additionally, the adverse effects in humans occur in several tissues and, apparently, by several distinct mechanisms...Thus, during pregnancy in humans, isoflavones per se could be a risk factor for abnormal brain and reproductive tract development.' It added: 'There exists a significant body of animal data that demonstrates goitrogenic [effect on the thyroid gland] and even carcinogenic effects of soy products.' Sheehan was particularly concerned about the increasing number of babies been weaned on soya infant formula. 'We are doing a large uncontrolled and unmonitored experiment on human infants,' he said. OFM contacted the scientists but was told they are not allowed to comment publicly on the health risks of soya. Doerge suggested speaking to another expert Dr Bill Helferich, a professor of food at the University of Illinois who has discovered a possible link between the growth of certain breast cancer tumours that require oestrogen and the chemicals found in soya. Helferich was unwilling to comment on whether a woman at risk of such a cancer should stop eating soya products. But, when asked what the health implications were of increasing amounts of soya in the Western diet, he told OFM : 'It's like roulette. We just don't know.' It is not just across the Atlantic that the increased consumption of soya has concerned authorities. In Britain, the Food Standards Agency commissioned a report from its Committee on Toxicity of Chemicals in Food to look at the issue. Published in May 2003, and titled Phytoestrogens and Health, the cover of this 400-page tome is illustrated with a soya plant. In its introduction the report states: 'In 1940 adverse effects on fertility were observed in animals that had been graz ing on phytoestrogen-rich plants. In the early 1980s it became clear that phytoestrogens could produce biological effects in humans.' What follows is a highly complex and comprehensive analysis of every scientific study ever carried out on the subject of plant oestrogens. The scope is immense: interaction with immune systems, central nervous systems, thyroid glands and cardiovascular systems. It analyses evidence for and against the impact of these soya chemicals on breast cancer, prostate cancer, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer and lung cancer. The findings are inconclusive. Some case studies find soya reduces the risk of one cancer, but possibly increases the risk of another. Professor Frank Woods was the chair man of the working group that produced this report. He is one of the country's leading toxologists and has been a key government adviser. If anybody can be called an expert on soya, it is him. Yet even he will not be drawn on whether the increase in soya in Western diets is good or bad. 'We still have a lot to learn,' he said. There is, however, one area where his mind is made up. 'If my daughter ever asked me advice on whether she should feed her baby on soya formula, I would say no, unless her doctor had specifically advised her to do so.' Even if the the baby had an allergy to dairy products, he believes that other options, such as hydrolysed cow's milk protein, are safer. === message truncated ===

Peter H

ALL-NEW Messenger - all new features - even more fun! To send an email to -

November 9, 2004

I can appreciate where you are coming from on this one, but I am not convinced. Do you think that they are being brainwashed by traditional nursery rhymes? There are far worse things in life, and by censoring these nursery rhymes, are you not brainwashing them yourself? Not an accusation, just a question!

Personally, I think this is another example of the PC society we are living in. Would you for example change Jack and Jill to stop them falling down the hill and hurting themselves?, how about Ding Dong Dell leave the pussy out of the well?, Mary, Mary not contrary, but perfectly reasonable and well adjusted?

I think it may be better to leave them alone, as they will get confused when they hear them from other sources ( friends/plygroups/nurseries etc)

Why not make up new ones yourself?

Here are some reading suggestions by : Benjamin Zephaniah

School's Out: Poems Not For School (For older kids)

or Funky Chickens

or Under the Stairs by Mary Brady or The Umpteenth Dalmatian by Mary Bradyor Ollie: The Lazing, Amazing Cat by D.A. Hutton

These may be for older children , but they can be good to read to your children at bedtime.

All The Best,

The Valley Vegan......

Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

wow, i never thought of myself as a veganette before..Somepeople might think that probably we have too much time on our hands or that we are too PC, but I think there is a valid point to changing words around and making them veganfriendly, for instance, I was surprised when reading, bedtime books to my 2 and 6 year old boys, how many meat/carnivorous references there are in those simply childrens books,and how every single baby in books are holding a bottle of Non-human milk..(no breastfeeding in childrens books, no no no, that would be tooo controversial!) I was reading the nursery poem,sing a song of sixpence,four a twenty blackbirdsbaked in a pie,wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king... etcyou get the picture, ussuallly, I am reading a booking to them and I substitute, say

for instance, theres a hot dog, I say Johnny eats a tofudog etc... but I cuouldnt think of one for that poem.anouk , "Craig Dearth" wrote:> ok everyone the point was to find new sayings> I was thinking silken tofu and like I said maybe I am not good at this> > > > > > > silk does come from silk worms...more of a caterpillar really...> you *can* get silk without killing the pupae..but..mostly they just dunk the> whole coccoon, puape and all, and then untangle them...> > > > Anouk Sickler> Nov 8, 2004 8:32 PM> > > > > Craig Dearth [cd39@e...]> > >> > > Ok fellow Vegans and Veganettes,> > >> ------------------------

November 9, 2004

heh

jack and jill is about the raising of taxes and the loss of king charles head... peter hurd Nov 9, 2004 6:44 AM Re:

I can appreciate where you are coming from on this one, but I am not convinced. Do you think that they are being brainwashed by traditional nursery rhymes? There are far worse things in life, and by censoring these nursery rhymes, are you not brainwashing them yourself? Not an accusation, just a question!

Personally, I think this is another example of the PC society we are living in. Would you for example change Jack and Jill to stop them falling down the hill and hurting themselves?, how about Ding Dong Dell leave the pussy out of the well?, Mary, Mary not contrary, but perfectly reasonable and well adjusted?

I think it may be better to leave them alone, as they will get confused when they hear them from other sources ( friends/plygroups/nurseries etc)

Why not make up new ones yourself?

Here are some reading suggestions by : Benjamin Zephaniah

School's Out: Poems Not For School (For older kids)

or Funky Chickens

or Under the Stairs by Mary Brady or The Umpteenth Dalmatian by Mary Bradyor Ollie: The Lazing, Amazing Cat by D.A. Hutton

These may be for older children , but they can be good to read to your children at bedtime.

All The Best,

The Valley Vegan......

Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

November 9, 2004

Hi Fraggle

> jack and jill is about the raising of taxes and the loss of king charles head...

Now, that's not quite fair... they always knew where Charles' head was, it was never lost. :-)

BB

Peter

November 9, 2004

Hello All,

I am new to this group and I thought I would sort of introduce myself.

I am Bailey, I am 16, and I have been vegitarian for almost 2 years and

Vegan for about 3 months. I was surprized at how international this

list is, so I live in Tennessee, USA. I joined this group for a little

online chat with people who have the same views as me, and from the

30 or so I have already gotten I can see that most of you do .

In reply to the convorsation that has been going on the past few days,

I can completely feel for you. I really have to make do. I am 16 like

I said, in college, Jobless, living with my parents (very much meat

eaters), and completly broke. I do the best I can but all I can ever

afford is soymilk every other week. I don't get an allowence so this

has to come out of my gas money and therefore keeps me from going

certain places. My parents both think my choice is very stupid and

they do everything NOT to help me. My younger sister is also vegitarian

and has been for longer than me. My mom used to practically force her

to eat meat, but now that I am I can stick up for the both of us.

I am writing a multi-source argumenetive paper in english class over

the next few weeks on veganism/animal rights and I was wondering if

any of you have any sources you think would be helpful (yes I know

PETA is a good one). I think I have introduced myself well enough,

so thank you for welcoming me in to your group.

-Bailey

______________

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Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!

Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.

November 9, 2004

welcome bailey...

"ieatcrayonzs" Nov 9, 2004 11:30 AM Re: Hello All,I am new to this group and I thought I would sort of introduce myself.I am Bailey, I am 16, and I have been vegitarian for almost 2 years andVegan for about 3 months. I was surprized at how international thislist is, so I live in Tennessee, USA. I joined this group for a littleonline chat with people who have the same views as me, and from the30 or so I have already gotten I can see that most of you do .In reply to the convorsation that has been going on the past few days,I can completely feel for you. I really have to make do. I am 16 like I said, in college, Jobless, living with my parents (very much meateaters), and completly broke. I do the best I can but all I can everafford is soymilk every other week. I don't get an allowence so thishas to come out of my gas money and therefore keeps me from goingcertain places. My parents both think my choice is very stupid andthey do everything NOT to help me. My younger sister is also vegitarianand has been for longer than me. My mom used to practically force herto eat meat, but now that I am I can stick up for the both of us.I am writing a multi-source argumenetive paper in english class overthe next few weeks on veganism/animal rights and I was wondering if any of you have any sources you think would be helpful (yes I knowPETA is a good one). I think I have introduced myself well enough,so thank you for welcoming me in to your group.-Bailey______________Juno Platinum $9.95. Juno SpeedBand $14.95.Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.To send an email to -

November 9, 2004

Welcome Bailey,

I find the '101 Reasons' to be very interesting, and it has been updated in

2003

http://www.vivavegie.org/vv101/101reas2003.htm

Also 'The Facts About Eating Animal Products',

http://www.eucarya.com/activism/facts_about_eating_animals.htm

I would like to see an updated version of this though, anyone?

Lisa

www.pbase.com/aljuwaie

Dubai, UAE

-

" ieatcrayonzs " <Ieatcrayonzs

Tuesday, November 09, 2004 2:30 PM

Re:

>

> Hello All,

>

> I am new to this group and I thought I would sort of introduce myself.

> I am Bailey, I am 16, and I have been vegitarian for almost 2 years and

> Vegan for about 3 months. I was surprized at how international this

> list is, so I live in Tennessee, USA. I joined this group for a little

> online chat with people who have the same views as me, and from the

> 30 or so I have already gotten I can see that most of you do .

> In reply to the convorsation that has been going on the past few days,

> I can completely feel for you. I really have to make do. I am 16 like

> I said, in college, Jobless, living with my parents (very much meat

> eaters), and completly broke. I do the best I can but all I can ever

> afford is soymilk every other week. I don't get an allowence so this

> has to come out of my gas money and therefore keeps me from going

> certain places. My parents both think my choice is very stupid and

> they do everything NOT to help me. My younger sister is also vegitarian

> and has been for longer than me. My mom used to practically force her

> to eat meat, but now that I am I can stick up for the both of us.

> I am writing a multi-source argumenetive paper in english class over

> the next few weeks on veganism/animal rights and I was wondering if

> any of you have any sources you think would be helpful (yes I know

> PETA is a good one). I think I have introduced myself well enough,

> so thank you for welcoming me in to your group.

>

> -Bailey

>

> ______________

> Juno Platinum $9.95. Juno SpeedBand $14.95.

> Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com!

> Look for special offers at Best Buy stores.

>

> To send an email to -

>

November 9, 2004

Hello Bailey

Welcome to the group. I hope you enjoy it here. I'm sorry your parents are

not supportive - it must make life very difficult for you. Good luck.

Jo

> Hello All,

November 10, 2004

Hi Bailey

Welcome to (and that goes to the many new members who are popping

up all over the place at the moment!)

> I am writing a multi-source argumenetive paper in english class over

> the next few weeks on veganism/animal rights and I was wondering if

> any of you have any sources you think would be helpful (yes I know

> PETA is a good one). I think I have introduced myself well enough,

> so thank you for welcoming me in to your group.

VIVA are also good. The UK Vegan Society have a good website with lots of

information, and I guess there will also be some similar organisation in the

US, but being in the UK I know about the UK version!

Hope that helps

BB

Peter

November 11, 2004

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, ieatcrayonzs wrote:

>

> Hello All,

>

> I am new to this group and I thought I would sort of introduce myself.

> I am Bailey, I am 16, and I have been vegitarian for almost 2 years and

> Vegan for about 3 months.

Welcome, and congratulations!

> My parents both think my choice is very stupid and

> they do everything NOT to help me.

Yeah, my parents reacted the same way when I finally got too big to

conveineitly force-feed, and thus became a vegetarian in practice as well

as in philosophy. :-(

The good news is, now (20+ years later), my mom really likes my cooking,

so whenever I come to visit her, I do all the cooking, and it's all vegan.

She's told me that some of her friends, when they find out I'm visiting

and cooking only vegan meals, tell her she can come to dinner with them

and they'll feed her meat. And she tells them no thanks, she doesn't miss

it. :-) My father is dead now, but when he was alive, he also liked my

vegan cooking.

As far as low-cost and *easy* recipes, try _The Teen's Vegetarian

Cookbook_ by Judy Krizmanic. It's my favorite cookbook, even though it's

been a lot of years since I was a teen, just because the recipes are so

simple, yet still tasty.

> I am writing a multi-source argumenetive paper in english class over

> the next few weeks on veganism/animal rights and I was wondering if

> any of you have any sources you think would be helpful (yes I know

> PETA is a good one).

Try the Farm Sanctuary (www.farmsanctuary.org). Also, while it primarily

focuses on arguments for vegan cat diets, Jed Gillen's _Obligate

Carnivore_ (can be ordered from www.vegancats.com) makes some good points.

I'm not crazy about his style, but he does highlight some basic ethical

principles fundamental to veganism.

Also, I wrote a response to Temple Grandin's writings about how her

obsession with designing slaughterhouse equipment is an expression of her

great " love " and " empathy " for animals. My take on that is at

www.jimsinclair.org/killing.htm.

Jim Sinclair jisincla

November 18, 2004

Thanks for the advice,

I'll definetely check out those books.

in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about

traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the

title.

Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC. nyc

(mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could use some PC.

last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated

six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three kings

day, etc. etc.

and he brough home books like " heather has two mommies " and " I love

my nappy hair " .

This year in Florida schools, we have " bring your Dad to school day "

in manhattan it would've been (bring your Gaurdian)for example.

I think the key is to find the balance with PC,

to other parents I say were vegetarin instead, because at least they

have heard of that.

i rarely tell other parents that were vegan, those that I have,

looked at me like I said " We are from the planet Vega. " (he he)

, peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:

> I can appreciate where you are coming from on this one, but I am

not convinced. Do you think that they are being brainwashed by

traditional nursery rhymes? There are far worse things in life, and

by censoring these nursery rhymes, are you not brainwashing them

yourself? Not an accusation, just a question!

> Personally, I think this is another example of the PC society we

are living in. Would you for example change Jack and Jill to stop

them falling down the hill and hurting themselves?, how about Ding

Dong Dell leave the pussy out of the well?, Mary, Mary not contrary,

but perfectly reasonable and well adjusted?

> I think it may be better to leave them alone, as they will get

confused when they hear them from other sources (

friends/plygroups/nurseries etc)

> Why not make up new ones yourself?

> Here are some reading suggestions by : Benjamin Zephaniah

> School's Out: Poems Not For School (For older kids)

> or Funky Chickens

> or Under the Stairs by Mary Brady

> or The Umpteenth Dalmatian by Mary Brady

> or Ollie: The Lazing, Amazing Cat by D.A. Hutton

> These may be for older children , but they can be good to read to

your children at bedtime.

>

> All The Best,

> The Valley Vegan......

>

> Anouk

> Sickler <zurumato@e...> wrote:

>

> Somepeople might think that probably we have too much time on our

> hands or that we are too PC,

> but I think there is a valid point to changing words around and

> making them veganfriendly,

> this

> > > >

> >

> > silk does come from silk worms...more of a caterpillar really...

> > you *can* get silk without killing the pupae..but..mostly they

just

> dunk the

> > whole coccoon, puape and all, and then untangle them...

> >

> > > >

> > > > Ok fellow Vegans and Veganettes,

November 19, 2004

Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the "Summer Triangle." The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets) in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy trip through a worm hole! Ha! So if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay on them.

Susan

Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the title.Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC. nyc(mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could use some PC.last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three kings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like "heather has two mommies" and " I love my nappy hair". This year in Florida schools, we have "bring your Dad to school day" in manhattan it would've been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the balance with PC,to other parents I say were vegetarin

instead, because at least they have heard of that. i rarely tell other parents that were vegan, those that I have, looked at me like I said "We are from the planet Vega." (he he) , peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:> I can appreciate where you are coming from on this one, but I am not convinced. Do you think that they are being brainwashed by traditional nursery rhymes? There are far worse things in life, and by censoring these nursery rhymes, are you not brainwashing them yourself? Not an accusation, just a question! > Personally, I think this is another example of the PC society we are living in. Would you for example change Jack and Jill to stop them falling down the hill and hurting themselves?, how about Ding Dong Dell leave the pussy out of the well?, Mary, Mary not contrary, but perfectly reasonable and well adjusted?> I think it may be better to

leave them alone, as they will get confused when they hear them from other sources ( friends/plygroups/nurseries etc)> Why not make up new ones yourself?> Here are some reading suggestions by : Benjamin Zephaniah> School's Out: Poems Not For School (For older kids)> or Funky Chickens> or Under the Stairs by Mary Brady > or The Umpteenth Dalmatian by Mary Brady> or Ollie: The Lazing, Amazing Cat by D.A. Hutton> These may be for older children , but they can be good to read to your children at bedtime.> > All The Best,> The Valley Vegan......> > > > > > Anouk> Sickler <zurumato@e...> wrote:> > > Somepeople might think that probably we have too much time on our > hands or that we are too PC, > but I think there is a valid point to changing words around and > making them

veganfriendly, > this> > > > > > > > > > > > silk does come from silk worms...more of a caterpillar really...> > you *can* get silk without killing the pupae..but..mostly they just > dunk the> > whole coccoon, puape and all, and then untangle them...> > > > > > > >> > > > Ok fellow Vegans and Veganettes,To send an email to -

November 19, 2004

thanks for all the info on salt and ahimsa/namaste. you guys are encyclopedias!

-anouk

-

Susan Spain

11/18/2004 7:56:11 PM

Re:

Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the "Summer Triangle." The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets) in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy trip through a worm hole! Ha! So if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay on them.

Susan

Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:

Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the title.Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC. nyc(mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could use some PC.last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three kings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like "heather has two mommies" and " I love my nappy hair". This year in Florida schools, we have "bring your Dad to school day" in manhattan it would've been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the balance with PC,to other parents I say were vegetarin instead, because at least they have heard of that. i rarely tell other parents that were vegan, those that I have, looked at me like I said "We are from the planet Vega." (he he) , peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:> I can appreciate where you are coming from on this one, but I am not convinced. Do you think that they are being brainwashed by traditional nursery rhymes? There are far worse things in life, and by censoring these nursery rhymes, are you not brainwashing them yourself? Not an accusation, just a question! > Personally, I think this is another example of the PC society we are living in. Would you for example change Jack and Jill to stop them falling down the hill and hurting themselves?, how about Ding Dong Dell leave the pussy out of the well?, Mary, Mary not contrary, but perfectly reasonable and well adjusted?> I think it may be better to leave them alone, as they will get confused when they hear them from other sources ( friends/plygroups/nurseries etc)> Why not make up new ones yourself?> Here are some reading suggestions by : Benjamin Zephaniah> School's Out: Poems Not For School (For older kids)> or Funky Chickens> or Under the Stairs by Mary Brady > or The Umpteenth Dalmatian by Mary Brady> or Ollie: The Lazing, Amazing Cat by D.A. Hutton> These may be for older children , but they can be good to read to your children at bedtime.> > All The Best,> The Valley Vegan......> > > > > > Anouk> Sickler <zurumato@e...> wrote:> > > Somepeople might think that probably we have too much time on our > hands or that we are too PC, > but I think there is a valid point to changing words around and > making them veganfriendly, > this> > > > > > > > > > > > silk does come from silk worms...more of a caterpillar really...> > you *can* get silk without killing the pupae..but..mostly they just > dunk the> > whole coccoon, puape and all, and then untangle them...> > > > > > > >> > > > Ok fellow Vegans and Veganettes,To send an email to -

To send an email to -

November 19, 2004

peshaw...

not even in the top 25 closest stars...

fraggle centauri.....

Susan Spain <susanspain2004

Nov 18, 2004 4:56 PM

Re:

<DIV>Vega is a star. :-) It, along with

Deneb and Altair, form the " Summer Triangle. " The reason Carl Sagan used it as

the star of interest (with planets) in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because

it's only 25 light years away. Easy trip through a worm hole! Ha! So if anyone

thinks that as a Vegan you are from Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay

on them.</DIV>

<DIV>Susan</DIV>

<DIV> Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;

BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid " ><TT> Thanks for the advice, I'll

definetely check out those books. in the 90's there was a funny book

out, meant for adults about traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I

can't remember the title. Personally I went from living in a city

that was tooo PC. nyc (mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could

use some PC. last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've

celebrated six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three

kings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like " heather has two

mommies " and " I love my nappy hair " . This year in Florida

schools, we have " bring your Dad to school day " in manhattan it would've

been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the

balance with PC, to other parents I say were vegetarin

November 19, 2004

Not the closest star, for sure; but the closest that might have earth-like planets...yes.fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

peshaw...not even in the top 25 closest stars...fraggle centauri.....Susan Spain <susanspain2004Nov 18, 2004 4:56 PM Subject: Re: <html><body><DIV>Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the "Summer Triangle." The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets) in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy trip through a worm hole! Ha! So if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay on them.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><FONT face="times new roman"

size=3>Susan</DIV><DIV> Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT> Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the title. Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC. nyc (mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could use some PC. last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three kings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like "heather has two mommies" and " I

love my nappy hair". This year in Florida schools, we have "bring your Dad to school day" in manhattan it would've been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the balance with PC, to other parents I say were vegetarinTo send an email to -

The all-new My – Get yours free!

November 20, 2004

u think??

they think Vega might have jupiter er larger size planets, and maybe a neptune

sized one..but...

hmmm

well..even if it did have an *earth-like* planet, i would think life would be

pretty far-fetched...

vega is larger, and more intense..

and is only 350 million yrs old...but is tossin out so much energy they figure

it'll be dead in another 600million yrs...

Susan Spain <susanspain2004

Nov 19, 2004 2:31 PM

Re:

<DIV>Not the closest star, for sure; but the closest that might have earth-like

planets...yes. fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;

BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid " ><TT>peshaw... not even in the top 25 closest

stars... fraggle centauri.....

Susan Spain <susanspain2004 Nov 18, 2004 4:56 PM To:

Re:

<html><body> <DIV><FONT face= " times new roman "

size=3>Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the " Summer

Triangle. " The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets)

in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy

trip through a worm hole! Ha! So if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from

Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay on them.</DIV> <DIV><FONT

face= " times new roman " size=3> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face= " times new

roman "

size=3>Susan</DIV> <DIV> Anouk Sickler

<zurumato wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px

solid " ><TT> Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those

books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about

traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the

title. Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC.

nyc (mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could use some

PC. last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated

six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three kings day,

etc. etc. and he brough home books like " heather has two mommies " and " I

love my nappy hair " . This year in Florida schools, we have " bring

your Dad to school day " in manhattan it would've been (bring your

Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the balance with

PC, to other parents I say were vegetarin </TT> <TT>To

send an email to - </TT>

</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

The <a href= " " >all-new My </a> – Get yours free!

<tt>

To send an email to - </tt>

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November 20, 2004

....Vega, which is an A-zero main sequence dwarf star. It’s not exactly like the Sun, but it’s only twenty-six light-years away, and it has the prototype stellar debris ring. There are no known planets, but there certainly could be planets we don’t know anything about around Vega. Direct quote from Sagan's Contact, pages 78-79.fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

u think??they think Vega might have jupiter er larger size planets, and maybe a neptune sized one..but...hmmmwell..even if it did have an *earth-like* planet, i would think life would be pretty far-fetched...vega is larger, and more intense..and is only 350 million yrs old...but is tossin out so much energy they figure it'll be dead in another 600million yrs...Susan Spain <susanspain2004Nov 19, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: Re: <html><body><DIV>Not the closest star, for sure; but the closest that might have earth-like planets...yes. fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:

5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>peshaw... not even in the top 25 closest stars... fraggle centauri..... Susan Spain <susanspain2004 Nov 18, 2004 4:56 PM Re: <html><body> <DIV>Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the "Summer Triangle." The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets) in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy trip through a worm hole! Ha! So if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay on them.</DIV> <DIV><FONT face="times new roman"

size=3> </DIV> <DIV>Susan</DIV> <DIV> Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT> Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the title. Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC. nyc (mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could use some PC. last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three

kings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like "heather has two mommies" and " Ilove my nappy hair". This year in Florida schools, we have "bring your Dad to school day" in manhattan it would've been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the balance with PC, to other parents I say were vegetarin </TT> <TT>To send an email to - </TT> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <hr size=1> The <a href="">all-new My </a> – Get yours free! <tt>To send an

email to - </tt> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2><tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC><td align=center>

November 20, 2004

yeah..well..didn;t contact first come out in 1985 er somesuch?

they think they've discovered some large planets...

and vega is just to dang violent(imo) to support an earthlike planet

Susan Spain <susanspain2004

Nov 19, 2004 4:59 PM

Re:

<DIV>...Vega, which is an A-zero main

sequence dwarf star. It’s not exactly like the Sun, but it’s only twenty-six

light-years away, and it has the prototype stellar debris ring. There are no

known planets, but there certainly could be planets we don’t know anything about

around Vega. Direct quote from Sagan's Contact, pages

78-79. fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;

BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid " ><TT>u think?? they think Vega might have

jupiter er larger size planets, and maybe a neptune sized

one..but... hmmm well..even if it did have an *earth-like* planet, i

would think life would be pretty far-fetched... vega is larger, and more

intense.. and is only 350 million yrs old...but is tossin out so much energy

they figure it'll be dead in another 600million yrs... -----Original

Message----- Susan Spain <susanspain2004 Nov 19,

2004 2:31 PM Re:

<html><body> <DIV>Not the closest star, for

sure; but the closest that might have earth-like

planets...yes. fraggle <EBbrewpunx

wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:

5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid " ><TT>peshaw... not even in the top 25

closest stars... fraggle centauri..... -----Original

Message----- Susan Spain <susanspain2004 Nov 18,

2004 4:56 PM Re:

<html><body> <DIV><FONT face= " times new roman "

size=3>Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the " Summer

Triangle. " The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets)

in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy

trip through a worm hole! Ha! So if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from

Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay on them.</DIV> <DIV><FONT

face= " times new roman "

size=3> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face= " times new

roman " size=3>Susan</DIV> <DIV> Anouk Sickler

<zurumato wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px

solid " ><TT> Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those

books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about

traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the

title. Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC.

nyc (mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which could use some

PC. last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated

six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, three

kings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like " heather has two

mommies " and " I love my nappy hair " . This year in Florida

schools, we have " bring your Dad to school day " in manhattan it would've

been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the

balance with PC, to other parents I say were

vegetarin </TT> <TT>To send an email to

- </TT>

</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <hr size=1>Do you

? The <a href= " <A

href= " / " ></A> " >all-new My </a> – Get

yours free! <tt> To send an

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November 20, 2004

From http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_031208.html, dated Dec. 8, 2003:

"One of the closest and brightest stars in the sky appears to harbor a very familiar looking solar system, a young echo of our own complete with similar planets and an outer belt of colliding comets.

"Vega is easily visible in the evening without a telescope. It is young, just 350 million years old compared to our Sun, which is 4.6 billion years old.

"Vega is surrounded by an interesting dusty ring, which astronomers found in the early 1980s. It was the first discovery of a disk of material around another star. In the Carl Sagan's 1985 book "Contact," later a movie, Vega is the fictional source of radio transmissions.

"Ever since, researchers have seen more and more signatures of planet formation in the Vega dust ring. They peer through the dust now with high-powered, high-altitude telescopes. It is like unwrapping Christmas presents to reveal the mysteries inside.

"New computer modeling suggest the star is indeed spawning a solar system much like our own. Time, however, is not on Vega's side.

"A team of astronomers at the UK's Royal Observatory say clumps of dust in the disk-like ring can best be explained by a Neptune-sized planet orbiting Vega at about twice the distance Neptune is from our Sun. That configuration, the researchers say, allows plenty of room for rocky planets like Earth to develop closer to the star.

"The work was led by Mark Wyatt at the observatory's Astronomy Technology Center."fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

yeah..well..didn;t contact first come out in 1985 er somesuch?they think they've discovered some large planets...and vega is just to dang violent(imo) to support an earthlike planetSusan Spain <susanspain2004Nov 19, 2004 4:59 PM Subject: Re: <html><body><DIV>...Vega, which is an A-zero main sequence dwarf star. It’s not exactly like the Sun, but it’s only twenty-six light-years away, and it has the prototype stellar debris ring. There are no known planets, but there certainly could be planets we don’t know anything about around Vega. Direct quote from Sagan's Contact, pages

78-79. fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>u think?? they think Vega might have jupiter er larger size planets, and maybe a neptune sized one..but... hmmm well..even if it did have an *earth-like* planet, i would think life would be pretty far-fetched... vega is larger, and more intense.. and is only 350 million yrs old...but is tossin out so much energy they figure it'll be dead in another 600million yrs... Susan Spain <susanspain2004 Nov 19, 2004 2:31 PM Re: <html><body> <DIV>Not the closest star, for sure;

but the closest that might have earth-like planets...yes. fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>peshaw... not even in the top 25 closest stars... fraggle centauri..... Susan Spain <susanspain2004 Nov 18, 2004 4:56 PM Re: <html><body> <DIV>Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the "Summer Triangle." The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets) in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy trip through a worm hole! Ha! So

if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from Vega, that's some interesting stuff to lay on them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>size=3>Susan</DIV> <DIV> Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT> Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the title. Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC. nyc (mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which

could use some PC. last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan, must've celebrated six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan, threekings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like "heather has two mommies" and " I love my nappy hair". This year in Florida schools, we have "bring your Dad to school day" in manhattan it would've been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the balance with PC, to other parents I say were vegetarin </TT> <TT>To send an email to - </TT> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <hr size=1>

The <a href="<A href="/"></A>">all-new My </a> – Get yours free! <tt> To send anemail to - </tt>  <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center>

November 20, 2004

yeah..i know all about the dust ring..

but..with the large planets, the dust ring, and young volitile star which pushes

out a whole lot more energy then old Sol here, any rocky planet is gonna be

pummeled

an earth-like planet is gonna have to be beyond the orbit of jupiter in our own

solar system....

dang close to Vega's dust cloud

wump wump wump go to meteorites...

Susan Spain <susanspain2004

Nov 19, 2004 7:44 PM

Re:

<DIV>

From <A

href= " http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_031208.html " >http://w\

ww.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_031208.html</A>, dated Dec. 8,

2003:

" One of the closest and brightest stars in the sky appears to harbor a very

familiar looking solar system, a young echo of our own complete with similar

planets and an outer belt of colliding comets.<FONT face=arial color=#333333

size=2>

" Vega is <A

href= " http://www.space.com/spacewatch/sky_west_031205.html " ><FONT face=Arial

size=2>easily visible</A> in

the evening without a telescope. It is young, just 350 million years old

compared to our Sun, which is 4.6 billion years old.

" Vega is surrounded by an interesting dusty ring, which astronomers found in

the early 1980s. It was the first discovery of a disk of material around another

star. In the Carl Sagan's 1985 book " Contact, " later a movie, Vega is the

fictional source of radio transmissions.

" Ever since, researchers have seen more and more <A

href= " http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/dusty_worlds_020123-1.html\

" >signatures of planet formation</A><FONT

face=Arial size=2> in the Vega dust ring. They peer through the dust now with

high-powered, high-altitude telescopes. It is like unwrapping Christmas presents

to reveal the mysteries inside.

" New computer modeling suggest the star is indeed spawning a solar system

much like our own. Time, however, is not on Vega's side.

" A team of astronomers at the UK's Royal Observatory say clumps of dust in

the disk-like ring can best be explained by a Neptune-sized planet orbiting Vega

at about twice the distance Neptune is from our Sun. That configuration, the

researchers say, allows plenty of room for rocky planets like Earth to develop

closer to the star.

" The work was led by Mark Wyatt at the observatory's Astronomy Technology

Center. " fraggle <EBbrewpunx

wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;

BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid " ><TT>yeah..well..didn;t contact first come out in

1985 er somesuch? they think they've discovered some large planets... and

vega is just to dang violent(imo) to support an earthlike

planet Susan Spain

<susanspain2004 Nov 19, 2004 4:59 PM To:

Re:

<html><body> <DIV><FONT face= " times new

roman " size=3>...Vega, which is an A-zero main sequence dwarf star. It’s not

exactly like the Sun, but it’s only twenty-six light-years away, and it has the

prototype stellar debris ring. There are no known planets, but there certainly

could be planets we don’t know anything about around Vega. Direct

quote from Sagan's Contact, pages

78-79. fraggle <EBbrewpunx

wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;

BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid " ><TT>u think?? they think Vega might have

jupiter er larger size planets, and maybe a neptune sized

one..but... hmmm well..even if it did have an *earth-like* planet, i

would think life would be pretty far-fetched... vega is larger, and more

intense.. and is only 350 million yrs old...but is tossin out so much energy

they figure it'll be dead in another 600million yrs... -----Original

Message----- Susan Spain <susanspain2004 Nov 19,

2004 2:31 PM Re:

<html><body> <DIV>Not the closest star, for

sure;

but the closest that might have earth-like planets...yes. fraggle

<EBbrewpunx wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px

solid " ><TT>peshaw... not even in the top 25 closest stars... fraggle

centauri..... Susan Spain

<susanspain2004 Nov 18, 2004 4:56 PM To:

Re:

<html><body> <DIV><FONT face= " times new roman "

size=3>Vega is a star. :-) It, along with Deneb and Altair, form the " Summer

Triangle. " The reason Carl Sagan used it as the star of interest (with planets)

in the book (and movie) CONTACT is because it's only 25 light years away. Easy

trip through a worm hole! Ha! So

if anyone thinks that as a Vegan you are from Vega, that's some interesting

stuff to lay on them.</DIV> <DIV><FONT face= " times new

roman " size=3> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face= " times new

roman " size=3>Susan</DIV> <DIV> Anouk Sickler

<zurumato wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style= " PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px

solid " ><TT> Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely check out those

books. in the 90's there was a funny book out, meant for adults about

traditional childrens stories turned PC, but I can't remember the

title. Personally I went from living in a city that was tooo PC.

nyc (mahattan) to the town that I live in FL, which

could use some PC. last year my son in kindergarten in manhattan,

must've celebrated six holidays in december. kwanzaa, hanukahh, ramaddan,

three kings day, etc. etc. and he brough home books like " heather has

two mommies " and " I love my nappy hair " . This year in Florida

schools, we have " bring your Dad to school day " in manhattan it would've

been (bring your Gaurdian)for example. I think the key is to find the

balance with PC, to other parents I say were

vegetarin </TT> <TT>To send an email to

- </TT>

</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <hr size=1>Do you

?

The <a href= " <A href= " <A

href= " / " >/</A> " ><A

href= " / " ></A></A> " >all-new My </a> –

Get yours free! <tt> To send

an email to

- </tt> <!--

|**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <table border=0 cellspacing=0

cellpadding=2> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC> <td align=center><font size= " -1 "

color=#003399>

November 22, 2004

I usually just say I'm a " Lost Vegan. " People think I am making some

sort of funny 'cause I live in Vegas. Makes them laugh and then ask

what I mean.

sara

, " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@e...>

wrote:

> I think the key is to find the balance with PC,

> to other parents I say were vegetarin instead, because at least

they

> have heard of that.

> i rarely tell other parents that were vegan, those that I have,

> looked at me like I said " We are from the planet Vega. " (he he)

November 23, 2004

Could I theorize that it is caused by GM soya bean crops?

Just thought for food

Dave

Craig Dearth wrote:

USDA officials theorized soybean rust was blown into the US Gulf Coast by a

series of hurricanes in September.

December 29, 2004

Thanks, I love Pangea. I just ordered a few things from them the other day,

must have either missed the marshmellows, or they weren't on clearence yet.

Melanie

quintmom wrote:

Hey Folks,

For anyone looking for marshmallows to cook with or to put in your hot

chocolate, Pangea is selling " irregulars " for only $1.99 a 12-oz bag. Here's

the description they give for them:

Because vegetable gelling agents are much harder to work with than

animal-derived gelatin, some of our production batches do not meet our full

standards for regular retail sale in terms of texture. The taste is not

affected, but the consistency is wetter/stickier. As a result, these bags are

being cleared out at half price as compared to our regular marshmallows.

These irregular marshmallows are great for cooking and baking (rice crispy

treats, etc.) but are not recommended for campfire roasting.

Just thought I'd let you know in case any of you wanted to order some. The

address is: http://www.veganstore.com/

God's Peace,

Gayle

January 18, 2005

Dont know if you guys got this mail already but take a look at this:

Dogs, cats and other animals who survived the tsunami are now in desperate need of clean water, food and veterinary care. The World Society for the Protection of Animals is engaged in a special relief effort. Please consider makingan emergency donation today, and thank you for caring!http://www.care2.com/go/z/20528______Dear Friends, The World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA) urgently needs your help to care for animals in the tsunami zone. As a new year begins, the world is united inits shock and sadness at the terrible human tragedy following the disaster. In the face of such overwhelming human adversity, it is all too easy to forget the animal victims of the crisis... but not for the people of WSPA. With over 50 years in global animal care, WSPA's Animal Rescue Team

is hard at work for the animals who lost so much. Every penny donated to this appeal will be spent on improving the lives of animals in the tsunami affected region.Please donate today: http://www.care2.com/go/z/20528Here's what your emergency funds will provide:* Food & water for the homeless pets: Dogs and cats suffergreatly during disasters that remove their normal food supply. Wet food is critical as a water source, as water supplies have become contaminated by salt water - making animals ill.* Mobile clinics to deliver medicine & care: Specially outfitted vans allow veterinarians to travel throughout the disaster zone treating animals in need. These are alsocritical tools for vaccination programs to stop local governments from resorting to dog poisoning as a rabies prevention program.* Establishment of an

emergency reaction team: Creating anorganized and equipped coordination group to help all animal welfare organizations, veterinarians and governmentofficials to work together in the coming weeks and months.* Rebuilding & Training: WSPA will continue to work with local animal groups and veterinarians to deliver ongoing aid to animals, to rebuild animal welfare facilities, to provide disaster preparedness training and to deliver supplies where they are most needed.Your gift of $30, $50, $100, $1,000 or more will mean the world to the animals whose normal lives have been so devastated by the tsunami. Please give what you can.Won't you please donate today?http://www.care2.com/go/z/20528Thank you so very much.Laura SimpsonUSA DirectorWSPA34 Deloss Street, Framingham, MA 01702Phone:

1-800-883-9772Fax: 1-508-620-0786E-Mail: wspaWeb: wspa-usa.org______Thank you for receiving Pet Alerts from Care2 and ThePetitionSite. If you learned something interesting from this newsletter, please forward it to your friends, family and colleagues.To stop getting this newsletter, send an empty email to:do-unsub-81-1452904-1481274-5b5616f7or visit:http://www.care2.com/newsletters/unsub/81/1452904/1481274/5b5616f7Peter H

ALL-NEW Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

June 17, 2005

I hope this helps?

http://www.south-beach-diet-101.com/learn/south-beach-diet-vegetarian.html

cherrie

-

<quintmom

<Undisclosed-Recipient:;>

Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:54 PM

> Hey Everyone,

> I'm going to a friend's house tomorrow for dinner. The deal was that she

> would provide the drinks and I would provide the food (it was visa versa

> last time we got together). Here's the problem though - she and her dh

> are on the South Beach Diet. I have no idea what to make for them with

> them being on this diet. They are very open and in fact look forward to

> the vegan meals I have made for them in the past so that isn't a problem.

> It's just that I have no idea what the South Beach Diet is or what I can

> make for them that fits in with their plan. Does anyone have any ideas

> for this - right away please?

>

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