Guest guest Posted December 13, 2001 Report Share Posted December 13, 2001 Ken: As described, I think this is a wonderful idea for post graduate level studies for a PhD in this field. You may be delightfully surprised to know that I taught myself to read a little bit of Chinese (starting back in the 80s) so I can get through books of herbal and acupuncture forumulas. The most intersting and practical herbal formulas I use in my office are from my 300 or so books in Chinese. Today, any herbalist who doen't read some Chinese is at a real disadvantage considering the scope and variety of formulas available in the literature, compared to what's in translation. But even before lobbying the profession to add any course to the school curriculums, it would help it to be a foregone conclusion if more book and journal publishers were to include the Chinese (at least important sections) in their new offerings. This could be done relatively quickly now that the software is easily available; and it would assist any professional discussions. Practitioners and students would have Chinese in their home even if they had no interest in learning to read it. If COMP achieved and promoted this standard first, then schools would have less resistance to follow suit. Students and practitioners would already be use to and familiar with seeing Chinese in print. I suspect forums like Todd had the foresight to create in the CHA are going to be of even more importance in the future to help the profession to evolve. Discussions based on books with the Chinese already available in the texts would help facilitate them. Also, if could display Chinese characters, that would make discussions easier to follow by people who don't read any Chinese, and expose them to the language at the same time. Jim Ramholz , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > > > ...matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > > reverence. > > This is an extremely important point. > And of far greater concern than people > taking a text such as SHL on " faith > or reverence " is the fact that so many > people are educated to take the work > of a handful of modern writers as the > gospel truth of the subject, irrespective > of faith, reverence, validity, or any > actual pertinence to the knowledge base > that has long constituted the subject. > > Until and unless we as a profession > take responsibility for establishing > proper scholarship that is rooted in > knowledge of the Chinese language and > access to the literary foundations that > have been constructed over centuries, > we will all be in the condition that > you decry. In China, questions such > as those being discussed here, might > be referred to personnel from the SHL > department at a college or university > of TCM. > > This doesn't mean that " they've > got all the answers in China. " It means > that modern Chinese scholars and doctors, > in their efforts to bring traditional > theories and methods to bear on the > health care challenges of contemporary > people, realized that they needed to > familiarize themselves with the accumulated > knowledge of the subject. They simply have > a great advantage over non-Chinese in having > a head start on linguistic and literary > access. And of course there is the benefit > of living in the cultural matrix that has > evolved from the one in which traditional > medicine first emerged. > > But they have no monopoly on the subject > and are, to the contrary, working hard to > make it available to foreigners as well as > to their country folk. Foreigners... > that's us...have to work just as hard, if > not harder to bring this transmission off > successfully. I believe strongly that this > work must begin with acquiring a basic > and functional familiarity with the language. > > For those who want to read more about this, > the editorial in the forthcoming issue of > CAOM focuses on the language requirement. > I am campaigning on this point. It's a > grass roots campaign in which I'd like to > enlist as many people as possible. I would > like to see students demanding to study > Chinese medical language, and I'd like to > see teachers demanding it of themselves > and each other as well as of their students. > > I'd like to see the schools individually > and as a group taking effective measures > to stimulate, foster, and support the > scholarship that is required to create > access to the Chinese medical literature, > modern and ancient, that remains such an > important feature of Chinese medicine. > > It's a campagin that focuses on caring > about the quality of our knowledge and > of our clinical skills, recognizing that > the latter cannot be reasonably expected > to continue to emerge without a healthy > condition of the former. > > The usual response I get when I carry on > like this is being told, in more or less > these words to " get real. " But this is > about as real as I can get. > > Matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > reverence and until and unless we change > the current conditions under which we > educate and certify practitioners of the > subject, that's pretty much what we are > doing. > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 Jim, I more than endorse your suggestions. I'm working on some of them, and would be glad to get our heads together and figure out approaches to the others. That's precisely what I mean by a grass roots campaign. Once we get the magnitude of the actual problem in clear view it will be possible and necessary to plan for and marshall the resources necessary to accomplish such things. The presentation of bilingual books, for example, a simple enough sounding target, is actually somewhat complex, when you think the thought through to its likely ramifications. I think the tactics are, at this point, beyond the scope of this list. But the strategy is certainly an important topic for discussion. I think that an important part of the strategy consists of generating widespread enthusiasm for studying the subject in its larger context, as Bob Felt so precisely put it. That, among other reasons, is why I am so persistent in talking about it in this forum. I want to encourage people to get involved in these pursuits, and I particularly want to hear from the people who think that what I'm saying is unreal, stupid, unpopular, impractical, or simply boring. I want to discover what's going on in people's minds on this subject, also including the silent ones. Ken , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Ken: > > As described, I think this is a wonderful idea for post graduate > level studies for a PhD in this field. You may be delightfully > surprised to know that I taught myself to read a little bit of > Chinese (starting back in the 80s) so I can get through books of > herbal and acupuncture forumulas. The most intersting and practical > herbal formulas I use in my office are from my 300 or so books in > Chinese. Today, any herbalist who doen't read some Chinese is at a > real disadvantage considering the scope and variety of formulas > available in the literature, compared to what's in translation. > > But even before lobbying the profession to add any course to the > school curriculums, it would help it to be a foregone conclusion if > more book and journal publishers were to include the Chinese (at > least important sections) in their new offerings. This could be done > relatively quickly now that the software is easily available; and it > would assist any professional discussions. Practitioners and > students would have Chinese in their home even if they had no > interest in learning to read it. If COMP achieved and promoted this > standard first, then schools would have less resistance to follow > suit. Students and practitioners would already be use to and > familiar with seeing Chinese in print. > > I suspect forums like Todd had the foresight to create in the CHA > are going to be of even more importance in the future to help the > profession to evolve. Discussions based on books with the Chinese > already available in the texts would help facilitate them. Also, if > could display Chinese characters, that would make discussions > easier to follow by people who don't read any Chinese, and expose > them to the language at the same time. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > ...matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > > > reverence. > > > > This is an extremely important point. > > And of far greater concern than people > > taking a text such as SHL on " faith > > or reverence " is the fact that so many > > people are educated to take the work > > of a handful of modern writers as the > > gospel truth of the subject, irrespective > > of faith, reverence, validity, or any > > actual pertinence to the knowledge base > > that has long constituted the subject. > > > > Until and unless we as a profession > > take responsibility for establishing > > proper scholarship that is rooted in > > knowledge of the Chinese language and > > access to the literary foundations that > > have been constructed over centuries, > > we will all be in the condition that > > you decry. In China, questions such > > as those being discussed here, might > > be referred to personnel from the SHL > > department at a college or university > > of TCM. > > > > This doesn't mean that " they've > > got all the answers in China. " It means > > that modern Chinese scholars and doctors, > > in their efforts to bring traditional > > theories and methods to bear on the > > health care challenges of contemporary > > people, realized that they needed to > > familiarize themselves with the accumulated > > knowledge of the subject. They simply have > > a great advantage over non-Chinese in having > > a head start on linguistic and literary > > access. And of course there is the benefit > > of living in the cultural matrix that has > > evolved from the one in which traditional > > medicine first emerged. > > > > But they have no monopoly on the subject > > and are, to the contrary, working hard to > > make it available to foreigners as well as > > to their country folk. Foreigners... > > that's us...have to work just as hard, if > > not harder to bring this transmission off > > successfully. I believe strongly that this > > work must begin with acquiring a basic > > and functional familiarity with the language. > > > > For those who want to read more about this, > > the editorial in the forthcoming issue of > > CAOM focuses on the language requirement. > > I am campaigning on this point. It's a > > grass roots campaign in which I'd like to > > enlist as many people as possible. I would > > like to see students demanding to study > > Chinese medical language, and I'd like to > > see teachers demanding it of themselves > > and each other as well as of their students. > > > > I'd like to see the schools individually > > and as a group taking effective measures > > to stimulate, foster, and support the > > scholarship that is required to create > > access to the Chinese medical literature, > > modern and ancient, that remains such an > > important feature of Chinese medicine. > > > > It's a campagin that focuses on caring > > about the quality of our knowledge and > > of our clinical skills, recognizing that > > the latter cannot be reasonably expected > > to continue to emerge without a healthy > > condition of the former. > > > > The usual response I get when I carry on > > like this is being told, in more or less > > these words to " get real. " But this is > > about as real as I can get. > > > > Matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > > reverence and until and unless we change > > the current conditions under which we > > educate and certify practitioners of the > > subject, that's pretty much what we are > > doing. > > > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > The presentation of bilingual books, for > example, a simple enough sounding target, > is actually somewhat complex, when you > think the thought through to its likely > ramifications. I think the tactics are, > at this point, beyond the scope of this > list. But the strategy is certainly an > important topic for discussion. I have the twelve set of TCM library which has the Chinese on one page and the English on the next. I am willing to devoting the time, energy to learn to read Chinese. I think the translation issue is also relevant to the Tai Chi literature and am not aware of a standard terminology in the Chinese martial arts. I have Bob's book on " Teach Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese " ; got a dictionary and a list from China periodicals on numerous TCM journals. I will be ordering The Practical Dictionary of Chinese Medicine in a couple of days (a x-mass present to myself, I`ve been a good boy lately). These are my concerns/questions: how do I know my translations are correct? Who would be willing to tutor/mentor those who are willing to invest their time in such an effort, and at what cost ($$)? Could a list be started with this objective in mind? What does a " Functional Translation " mean and is there room for personal interpretation in this method? I know the topic is beyond the nature of this list and off-list answers, suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > I think that an important part of the > strategy consists of generating widespread > enthusiasm for studying the subject in > its larger context, as Bob Felt so > precisely put it. " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but certainly publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the standard and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed to Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be? One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books about how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot fairly evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would be an indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how well a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received. And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful are they? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 Jim, I can't give you actual figures (company policy), but I can give you feedback on sales of translations of premodern texts, books on learning to read Chinese, and attendance at seminars. As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly. If we were only a profit-oriented company, we would let them all go out of print. By publishing standards, they just don't sell fast enough to pay the inventory tax, warehouse rent, insurance, etc., let alone recoup the prepress time and money. We're talking about dribs and drabs. Although we have plans to add the Yi Lin Gai Cuo and the Xue Zheng Lun to this series in the next year or so, that's only because I am willing to spend my own personal money to see this happen. If it were a strictly business decision, we wouldn't do it. For me, it's a personal indulgence. As for " Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese, " that book also sells very, very poorly. We're still on our first printing. Again, dribs and drabs. Most other companies would let it go out of print. And finally, our seminar of the same title has been so poorly attended that we have no plans for teaching it again. We can't fly to Portland, OR from DIA, rent a conference room, do print and direct mail advertising, pay the teacher, pay the teacher's room and board, and make any profit if only seven or eight people sign up. I'd also like to say that creating dual language books is a no-start proposition for Blue Poppy. Yes, there is the software to in-put the characters, but we're talking about in-putting a whole book. Secondly, we'd have to have a Chinese language proofreader. Third, it would double the printing costs (ink, paper, binding). In our experience, there doesn't begin to be enough desire (read " sales " ) to make this a viable option. Bob , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > I think that an important part of the > > strategy consists of generating widespread > > enthusiasm for studying the subject in > > its larger context, as Bob Felt so > > precisely put it. > > > " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but certainly > publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the standard > and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed to > Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional > standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be? > > One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the > numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books about > how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot fairly > evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would be an > indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how well > a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received. > > And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on > teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful > are they? > > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 My experience as a professor and department chair at Pacific College of O.M. is that there is a small but growing contingency of students who understand the need and desire to learn medical Chinese, and are studying with one or two Chinese instructors and/or students. Most other students recognize the importance of medical Chinese, but feel overwhelmed with their course loads to do so until they graduate. . . and are struggling to find the resources. While I proselytize to students to learn medical Chinese, saying even a little is a lot, I think the TCM colleges will have to back it up and require the subject for it to take off. But student demand is growing. The change in the last few years is impressive. Fewer students think that one or two textbooks are gospel for the practice of CM. While I understand and respect Bob Flaw's feelings about bilingual texts (publishers should not have to lose money on their books), bilingual texts such as Mitchell/Feng/Wiseman's SHL are great teaching tools for medical Chinese. On Friday, December 14, 2001, at 11:02 AM, jramholz wrote: > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > I think that an important part of the > > strategy consists of generating widespread > > enthusiasm for studying the subject in > > its larger context, as Bob Felt so > > precisely put it. > > > " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but certainly > publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the standard > and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed to > Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional > standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be? > > One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the > numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books about > how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot fairly > evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would be an > indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how well > a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received. > > And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on > teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful > are they? > > > Jim Ramholz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 I basically agree with both Z'ev and Bob. Chinese language [or some East Asian language] should be an integral part of any school that attempts to make their students proficient in Oriental medicine. This is not to say that no one who does not read one of these languages is not proficient, as that is demonstrably false. No reason to go into that here, except to note that learning the language makes learning the medicine much easier and helps give students the right trajectory. In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese for entry into our program. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 Hi Bob, I am sorry that the Master Series and Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese doesn't sell well. I must say, these are the best books you publish! Maybe 8 years ago, you and Honora came to Samra Universtiy in Los Angeles (where I used to work). You set up a table to sell your books and gave a little lunch-time lecture on 2 subjects: 1. Having a specialty in the practice of Chinese medicine, and 2. Learning to read medical Chinese. Both of these issues I took to heart. It took a while for me to begin studying Chinese, but now (with multiple dictionaries and lots of time) I can translate things for myself. Besides making a start and going to school, this has been the single most important aspect of my education. It has opened up worlds for me. I often feel like an archeologist who has just uncovered some invaluable treasure, unseen by other English-only speakers. I find it quite exciting when I get that flash of understanding. So, don't be discouraged. Little by little, there will be more who are inspired to do the work and see the medicine directly without the screen of the English (or other foreign) language. Lorraine , " pemachophel2001 " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly... > As for " Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese, " that book > also sells very, very poorly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 Fernando, > > I have the twelve set of TCM library which has the Chinese on one page > and the English on the next. I am willing to devoting the time, > energy to learn to read Chinese. I think the translation issue is also > relevant to the Tai Chi literature and am not aware of a standard > terminology in the Chinese martial arts. We may again be getting far afield from the CHA list topic, but just a brief comment. In my experience, when one is being orally taught in tai4 ji2, the martial art I study, the " meanings " of the words are both verbally and tactilely taught. In terms of their importance as tools of instruction the words themselves are relatively less critical in the process of transferring information from teacher to student. And of course, talking about martial arts gets pretty pointless pretty fast. So again, the value of the words as well as their importance as ways of communicating what is effective and what is not is relatively limited. Therefore there is no great need to attempt a standardization of terms, since the benefit would not probably be outweighed by the costs, in terms of time and effort. However I think that the study of the words yields great benefits, and it is the rare boxer who can settle matters with words alone. > > These are my concerns/questions: how do I know my translations are > correct? Who would be willing to tutor/mentor those who are willing to > invest their time in such an effort, and at what cost ($$)? > Could a list be started with this objective in mind? Maybe a good idea. We're now putting together a course for teaching the subject of Chinese medical Chinese. It won't be available for a while, but meanwhile I'd be happy to participate in such a list. The list idea is probably limited in terms of what can actually be accomplished online without the addition of content in various media, but it would certainly be a good place for people to get together and have a place to get questions answered and references, links, etc. What does a > " Functional Translation " mean and is there room for personal > interpretation in this method? Just a point about personal interpretation. According to my understanding of traditional Chinese thought, of which Chinese medicine is a product and expression, the concept of personal interpretation is of central importance. If you look at the passage from Da4 Xue2 that I post from time to time, it places the introspective search for precise verbal definitions to our inarticulate thoughts as the very root of the process of self-cultivation and the bringing of social order. What is this if not personal interpretation? The reason for enduring the hard work of studying the language and coming to know the ancient meanings of the words is that possession of this knowledge bestows both the freedom and responsibility on those who possess it to personally interpret it and bring it to life for others. This is one of the key mechanisms that has been used for thousands of years to keep these traditions alive. We cannot neglect it. To do so and expect that the traditions will survive despite such neglect is folly...or worse. It is not a matter of personal interpretation. It is a matter of a person having something to intrepret and then doing so. > > I know the topic is beyond the nature of this list and off-list > answers, suggestions are welcome. Certainly there should be a list and other avenues available to foster and nourish people's interest in the study of the language. But as I understand it, it is not really off topic on this list. As Carl Jung put it, " The mere use of words is futile if you do not know what they mean. " Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 Hi All, --- fbernall <fbernall wrote: > Could a list be started with this objective > [Translation] in mind? I am a junkie (belong to 34 lists, and own or help moderate 9). I have just started a list for this. This group has a few purposes: 1. Discussion of issues regarding translation of Chinese medical texts. 2. Discussion of issues regarding Chinese medical education and language requirements. 3. A forum to ask for help or opinions on the discussion of specific works. I hope the list-owner (Is it Todd?) will not be too angry with me. I fully expect anyone who joins that list to stay on this list. Anyway, if you are interested, email me privately, or if Todd allows, I will post the group's info publicly. BTW, even though I started it, I am no expert and am not moderating it. Lorraine ===== Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at or bid at http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 Dan, > > In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more > difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of > time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next > year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese > for entry into our program. This is very encouraging. I know that your school has taken the lead in this direction and that your leadership has long served a defining role in the field. I hope that others see the wisdom in what you're doing and follow suit. With the application and presumed eventual approval for accreditation of the new doctorate level programs, the matter of community standards looms as critcal as the accreditation agency must develop effective ways to implement the standards that have been adopted. The move to require an introduction to Chinese language is an important step to the establishment of generally higher standards. I applaud it. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 At 7:24 PM +0000 12/14/01, pemachophel2001 wrote: >As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly. -- This is deeply depressing, and thank you for your dedication in continuing to provide this literature for those of us who do appreciate it. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 dragon90405 wrote: Jim, I more than endorse your suggestions. I'm working on some of them, and would be glad to get our heads together and figure out approaches to the others. That's precisely what I mean by a grass roots campaign. Once we get the magnitude of the actual problem in clear view it will be possible and necessary to plan for and marshall the resources necessary to accomplish such things. The presentation of bilingual books, for example, a simple enough sounding target, is actually somewhat complex, when you think the thought through to its likely ramifications. I think the tactics are, at this point, beyond the scope of this list. But the strategy is certainly an important topic for discussion. I think that an important part of the strategy consists of generating widespread enthusiasm for studying the subject in its larger context, as Bob Felt so precisely put it. That, among other reasons, is why I am so persistent in talking about it in this forum. I want to encourage people to get involved in these pursuits, and I particularly want to hear from the people who think that what I'm saying is unreal, stupid, unpopular, impractical, or simply boring. I want to discover what's going on in people's minds on this subject, also including the silent ones. Ken Ken, I can only say that I have been agreeing with what you and others have been saying in regard to being able to navigate the chinese language on some level for better understanding of cm. Elizabeth Rochat de la Vallee has been a great inspiration for me to continue this pursuit, which I haven't yet done. Maybe now I will get on with it. But for an example, here's someone (an educator) who has some different ideas about chinese language education: Find two people that agree on a chinese translation, and you will have a group. I work with editors of major books and journals, and they can not agree with the meaning of words, and we are going to teach this to beginners. It is important to learn a few words and learn them well, but do that inside the "school of thought" that one is working with. I do hope that others on this list will be encouraged to speak their minds and contribute to this discussion. Frances , "jramholz" <jramholz> wrote: > Ken: > > As described, I think this is a wonderful idea for post graduate > level studies for a PhD in this field. You may be delightfully > surprised to know that I taught myself to read a little bit of > Chinese (starting back in the 80s) so I can get through books of > herbal and acupuncture forumulas. The most intersting and practical > herbal formulas I use in my office are from my 300 or so books in > Chinese. Today, any herbalist who doen't read some Chinese is at a > real disadvantage considering the scope and variety of formulas > available in the literature, compared to what's in translation. > > But even before lobbying the profession to add any course to the > school curriculums, it would help it to be a foregone conclusion if > more book and journal publishers were to include the Chinese (at > least important sections) in their new offerings. This could be done > relatively quickly now that the software is easily available; and it > would assist any professional discussions. Practitioners and > students would have Chinese in their home even if they had no > interest in learning to read it. If COMP achieved and promoted this > standard first, then schools would have less resistance to follow > suit. Students and practitioners would already be use to and > familiar with seeing Chinese in print. > > I suspect forums like Todd had the foresight to create in the CHA > are going to be of even more importance in the future to help the > profession to evolve. Discussions based on books with the Chinese > already available in the texts would help facilitate them. Also, if > could display Chinese characters, that would make discussions > easier to follow by people who don't read any Chinese, and expose > them to the language at the same time. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > , "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > > > > > > ...matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > > > reverence. > > > > This is an extremely important point. > > And of far greater concern than people > > taking a text such as SHL on "faith > > or reverence" is the fact that so many > > people are educated to take the work > > of a handful of modern writers as the > > gospel truth of the subject, irrespective > > of faith, reverence, validity, or any > > actual pertinence to the knowledge base > > that has long constituted the subject. > > > > Until and unless we as a profession > > take responsibility for establishing > > proper scholarship that is rooted in > > knowledge of the Chinese language and > > access to the literary foundations that > > have been constructed over centuries, > > we will all be in the condition that > > you decry. In China, questions such > > as those being discussed here, might > > be referred to personnel from the SHL > > department at a college or university > > of TCM. > > > > This doesn't mean that "they've > > got all the answers in China." It means > > that modern Chinese scholars and doctors, > > in their efforts to bring traditional > > theories and methods to bear on the > > health care challenges of contemporary > > people, realized that they needed to > > familiarize themselves with the accumulated > > knowledge of the subject. They simply have > > a great advantage over non-Chinese in having > > a head start on linguistic and literary > > access. And of course there is the benefit > > of living in the cultural matrix that has > > evolved from the one in which traditional > > medicine first emerged. > > > > But they have no monopoly on the subject > > and are, to the contrary, working hard to > > make it available to foreigners as well as > > to their country folk. Foreigners... > > that's us...have to work just as hard, if > > not harder to bring this transmission off > > successfully. I believe strongly that this > > work must begin with acquiring a basic > > and functional familiarity with the language. > > > > For those who want to read more about this, > > the editorial in the forthcoming issue of > > CAOM focuses on the language requirement. > > I am campaigning on this point. It's a > > grass roots campaign in which I'd like to > > enlist as many people as possible. I would > > like to see students demanding to study > > Chinese medical language, and I'd like to > > see teachers demanding it of themselves > > and each other as well as of their students. > > > > I'd like to see the schools individually > > and as a group taking effective measures > > to stimulate, foster, and support the > > scholarship that is required to create > > access to the Chinese medical literature, > > modern and ancient, that remains such an > > important feature of Chinese medicine. > > > > It's a campagin that focuses on caring > > about the quality of our knowledge and > > of our clinical skills, recognizing that > > the latter cannot be reasonably expected > > to continue to emerge without a healthy > > condition of the former. > > > > The usual response I get when I carry on > > like this is being told, in more or less > > these words to "get real." But this is > > about as real as I can get. > > > > Matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > > reverence and until and unless we change > > the current conditions under which we > > educate and certify practitioners of the > > subject, that's pretty much what we are > > doing. > > > > Ken Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Bob: Thanks for your response. I've long admired that you publish important texts without much financial return. I suspect your situation is probably much like other publishers. Any practitioner not owning---at least---half of the Blue Poppy catalog should consider becoming a dentist instead. Do you think that new graduate and post graduate standards will help increase sales significantly? Jim Ramholz , " pemachophel2001 " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Jim, > > I can't give you actual figures (company policy), but I can give you > feedback on sales of translations of premodern texts, books on > learning to read Chinese, and attendance at seminars. > > As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly. If we > were only a profit-oriented company, we would let them all go out of > print. By publishing standards, they just don't sell fast enough to > pay the inventory tax, warehouse rent, insurance, etc., let alone > recoup the prepress time and money. We're talking about dribs and > drabs. Although we have plans to add the Yi Lin Gai Cuo and the Xue > Zheng Lun to this series in the next year or so, that's only because I > am willing to spend my own personal money to see this happen. If it > were a strictly business decision, we wouldn't do it. For me, it's a > personal indulgence. > > As for " Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese, " that book > also sells very, very poorly. We're still on our first printing. > Again, dribs and drabs. Most other companies would let it go out of > print. > > And finally, our seminar of the same title has been so poorly attended > that we have no plans for teaching it again. We can't fly to Portland, > OR from DIA, rent a conference room, do print and direct mail > advertising, pay the teacher, pay the teacher's room and board, and > make any profit if only seven or eight people sign up. > > I'd also like to say that creating dual language books is a no- start > proposition for Blue Poppy. Yes, there is the software to in-put the > characters, but we're talking about in-putting a whole book. Secondly, > we'd have to have a Chinese language proofreader. Third, it would > double the printing costs (ink, paper, binding). In our experience, > there doesn't begin to be enough desire (read " sales " ) to make this a > viable option. > > Bob > > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > I think that an important part of the > > > strategy consists of generating widespread > > > enthusiasm for studying the subject in > > > its larger context, as Bob Felt so > > > precisely put it. > > > > > > " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but certainly > > publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the standard > > and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed to > > Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional > > standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be? > > > > One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the > > numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books about > > how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot fairly > > evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would be an > > indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how well > > a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received. > > > > And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on > > teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful > > are they? > > > > > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Dan: What level of proficiency in Chinese will you require? Jim Ramholz , " dfbensky " <dbensky@e...> wrote: > I basically agree with both Z'ev and Bob. Chinese language [or > some East Asian language] should be an integral part of any > school that attempts to make their students proficient in Oriental > medicine. This is not to say that no one who does not read one > of these languages is not proficient, as that is demonstrably > false. No reason to go into that here, except to note that learning > the language makes learning the medicine much easier and > helps give students the right trajectory. > > In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more > difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of > time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next > year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese > for entry into our program. > > Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Ken, Dan, Bob, others: What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of study in a curriculum? Off the top of my head, I would think at least being able to read the characters for herbs and acupuncture points. Jim Ramholz , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Dan, > > > > > In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more > > difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of > > time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next > > year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese > > for entry into our program. > > This is very encouraging. I know that your > school has taken the lead in this direction > and that your leadership has long served > a defining role in the field. I hope > that others see the wisdom in what you're > doing and follow suit. > > With the application and presumed eventual > approval for accreditation of the new > doctorate level programs, the matter of > community standards looms as critcal > as the accreditation agency must develop > effective ways to implement the standards > that have been adopted. > > The move to require an introduction to > Chinese language is an important step > to the establishment of generally > higher standards. I applaud it. > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Colleagues: The doctoral program at Emperor's College will require rudimentary translational skills. As well, it will contain a revisitation of Nei Jing, Su Wen, Shang Han Lun, and Wen Bing. The course 'Behavioral Medicine in the Classics' requires translation of classical literature. Other courses in the behavioral medicine specialty program will require Bob's text 'Chinese Medical Psychiatry.' Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Jim, > > What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and > proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of > study in a curriculum? I think it starts for the non-Chinese student, i.e. for a student who has no or little exposure to Chinese language and culture, at a more basic level than the language itself. Rather, I see that entrance to the subject begins with a survey of a number of subjects, which provides an orientation to the territory to be explored during a proper education in Chinese medicine. The premise of our first book was based on precisely this assessment of the situation facing those of us who come from different backgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine. From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon? began as an inventory of the materials that I had collected during several years of studying in China. I asked the question, " What do I need to know in order to understand the first thing about Chinese medicine? " And then I went about listing out the answers and gathering up the materials that led to them. From another perspective that book was first put together as a collection of teaching materials for Chinese students at the Chengdu University of TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminar there on translation of Chinese medical terms and texts. In fact, during the publication process the whole manuscript had to go through a complete overhaul when we realized that it was still focusing on problems facing Chinese students and that we intended it to be primarily of use to non-Chinese readers. Interesting exercise for the writers in the crowd: take something you've written and write it over for a different cultural mindset. I mention all of this because I have given the question you're asking a great deal of thought over the past ten years. What constitutes proficiency and how is such proficiency to be achieved? I'd say that someone needs to be quite familiar with the material covered in Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapter in that book is a list of about 100 Chinese medical terms, and at the time we put that book together it was our answer to the question in terms of a basic vocabulary that a beginner should command. However£¬I believe that there will soon be vastly more comprehensive materials available to address the issue of language learning quite directly and effectively. I think one of the most important proficiencies that a student should be able to achieve during the first year of study is a familiarity with the mode of thinking employed in the theoretical materials of Chinese medicine. As I've stated elsewhere, this requires a familiarity with the language and the way that the language organizes information, transmits and receives it. There is a unique and beautiful efficiency to the artifact of the Chinese language. It is a model of organization, complexity, and methodology for the thinking that is found at work in all traditional arts and sciences, very much including Chinese medicine. It's not just a matter of " knowing the language. " Without knowing the language, one does not know the way in which the elements of theory interact. Therefore, being proficient with this aspect of language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine. And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ride the Dragon? will give you the specifics on what we continue to believe constitute the materials with which one must be familiar in order to accomplish this proficiency. I think one of the reviews at the amazon site suggests that that book be required reading for all students of Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point. After twenty five years of study in the subject area, I was able to put between the covers of a fairly slender volume everything that I wished I had had access to when I'd first set out on the path. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Frances, > > I can only say that I have been agreeing with what you and others have > been saying in regard to being able to navigate the chinese language on > some level for better understanding of cm. I appreciate, of course, knowing that you and others agree. But I admit that I am far more interested in hearing the disagreements. I reckon that the status quo being what it is, there must be a vast " silent majority " (to use a phrase from another time and circumstance) that do not agree. And I am very interested to learn more about the nature and substance of such disagreements. Elizabeth Rochat de la > Vallee has been a great inspiration for me to continue this pursuit, > which I haven't yet done. Maybe now I will get on with it. Yes. By all means get on with it. The next year will pass, maybe even more quickly than this one has. And when it has, you'll either have gotten on with it, or not. > > But for an example, here's someone (an educator) who has some > different ideas about chinese language education: > > Find two people that agree on a chinese translation, and you will have a > > group. I work with editors of major books and journals, and they can > not > agree with the meaning of words, and we are going to teach this to > beginners. > It is important to learn a few words and learn them well, but do that > inside > the " school of thought " that one is working with. > Makes sense to me. The more I work in this area, the more I come to recognize that far more important than arriving at conclusions is the process undertaken to approach them. > I do hope that others on this list will be encouraged to speak their > minds and contribute to this discussion. Me, too! Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Jim - As soon as Emperor's College receives Accreditation Commission approval, publications will become available. We don't know when that will happen. Soon I hope. Will In a message dated 12/15/01 9:56:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, jramholz writes: It sounds interesting. Can you post a syllabus? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Will: It sounds interesting. Can you post a syllabus? Jim Ramholz , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Colleagues: > > The doctoral program at Emperor's College will require rudimentary > translational skills. As well, it will contain a revisitation of Nei Jing, Su > Wen, Shang Han Lun, and Wen Bing. > > The course 'Behavioral Medicine in the Classics' requires translation of > classical literature. Other courses in the behavioral medicine specialty > program will require Bob's text 'Chinese Medical Psychiatry.' > > Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?" >>>What does this mean Alon - dragon90405 Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:41 AM Re: Chinese language requirements Jim,> > What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and > proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of > study in a curriculum?I think it starts for the non-Chinese student,i.e. for a student who has no or little exposureto Chinese language and culture, at a more basiclevel than the language itself. Rather, I seethat entrance to the subject begins with asurvey of a number of subjects, which providesan orientation to the territory to be exploredduring a proper education in Chinese medicine.The premise of our first book was based onprecisely this assessment of the situationfacing those of us who come from differentbackgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine.From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon?began as an inventory of the materials that Ihad collected during several years of studyingin China. I asked the question, "What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?" And then I went aboutlisting out the answers and gathering upthe materials that led to them.From another perspective that book was first puttogether as a collection of teaching materialsfor Chinese students at the Chengdu Universityof TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminarthere on translation of Chinese medical termsand texts. In fact, during the publication processthe whole manuscript had to go through a completeoverhaul when we realized that it was stillfocusing on problems facing Chinese studentsand that we intended it to be primarily ofuse to non-Chinese readers. Interesting exercise for the writers in the crowd: takesomething you've written and write it overfor a different cultural mindset.I mention all of this because I have giventhe question you're asking a great deal of thought over the past ten years. What constitutesproficiency and how is such proficiency to beachieved?I'd say that someone needs to be quite familiar with the material covered in Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapterin that book is a list of about 100 Chinesemedical terms, and at the time we putthat book together it was our answer tothe question in terms of a basic vocabularythat a beginner should command.However£¬I believe that there will soon bevastly more comprehensive materials availableto address the issue of language learningquite directly and effectively.I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.There is a unique and beautiful efficiency tothe artifact of the Chinese language. It is a modelof organization, complexity, and methodologyfor the thinking that is found at work inall traditional arts and sciences, very muchincluding Chinese medicine. It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ridethe Dragon? will give you the specifics on whatwe continue to believe constitute the materialswith which one must be familiar in order toaccomplish this proficiency. I think one of thereviews at the amazon site suggests that thatbook be required reading for all studentsof Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point.After twenty five years of study in the subjectarea, I was able to put between the coversof a fairly slender volume everything thatI wished I had had access to when I'd firstset out on the path. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.>>>Does this needs to be in Chinese? Alon - dragon90405 Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:41 AM Re: Chinese language requirements Jim,> > What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and > proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of > study in a curriculum?I think it starts for the non-Chinese student,i.e. for a student who has no or little exposureto Chinese language and culture, at a more basiclevel than the language itself. Rather, I seethat entrance to the subject begins with asurvey of a number of subjects, which providesan orientation to the territory to be exploredduring a proper education in Chinese medicine.The premise of our first book was based onprecisely this assessment of the situationfacing those of us who come from differentbackgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine.From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon?began as an inventory of the materials that Ihad collected during several years of studyingin China. I asked the question, "What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?" And then I went aboutlisting out the answers and gathering upthe materials that led to them.From another perspective that book was first puttogether as a collection of teaching materialsfor Chinese students at the Chengdu Universityof TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminarthere on translation of Chinese medical termsand texts. In fact, during the publication processthe whole manuscript had to go through a completeoverhaul when we realized that it was stillfocusing on problems facing Chinese studentsand that we intended it to be primarily ofuse to non-Chinese readers. Interesting exercise for the writers in the crowd: takesomething you've written and write it overfor a different cultural mindset.I mention all of this because I have giventhe question you're asking a great deal of thought over the past ten years. What constitutesproficiency and how is such proficiency to beachieved?I'd say that someone needs to be quite familiar with the material covered in Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapterin that book is a list of about 100 Chinesemedical terms, and at the time we putthat book together it was our answer tothe question in terms of a basic vocabularythat a beginner should command.However£¬I believe that there will soon bevastly more comprehensive materials availableto address the issue of language learningquite directly and effectively.I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.There is a unique and beautiful efficiency tothe artifact of the Chinese language. It is a modelof organization, complexity, and methodologyfor the thinking that is found at work inall traditional arts and sciences, very muchincluding Chinese medicine. It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ridethe Dragon? will give you the specifics on whatwe continue to believe constitute the materialswith which one must be familiar in order toaccomplish this proficiency. I think one of thereviews at the amazon site suggests that thatbook be required reading for all studentsof Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point.After twenty five years of study in the subjectarea, I was able to put between the coversof a fairly slender volume everything thatI wished I had had access to when I'd firstset out on the path. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.>>>>>Although I understand what you are saying, taking this to an extreme will mean that unless you have grown up with Chinese you will never be able to truly learn the medicine. With time one learns to think in a second language but it is never pure. As one that takes the position that medicine is nothing more than treating patients and getting predictable results, I have to strongly disagree with these assumptions. May be we should start calling this scholars of and Culture. Not Doctors of Medicine. I am glad that at least Bensy's school seems to be strongly clinically, and system based, as this integrates real life thinking. Schools should decide what they believe is important in the process of making clinicians, but to me to be a good clinicians is not the same as a good scholar. Four years of schooling is a short time and priorities are importent. Its great that Dan is puting Chinese as a prerequisit and not making it the purpace in the eductions. Alon - dragon90405 Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:41 AM Re: Chinese language requirements Jim,> > What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and > proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of > study in a curriculum?I think it starts for the non-Chinese student,i.e. for a student who has no or little exposureto Chinese language and culture, at a more basiclevel than the language itself. Rather, I seethat entrance to the subject begins with asurvey of a number of subjects, which providesan orientation to the territory to be exploredduring a proper education in Chinese medicine.The premise of our first book was based onprecisely this assessment of the situationfacing those of us who come from differentbackgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine.From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon?began as an inventory of the materials that Ihad collected during several years of studyingin China. I asked the question, "What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?" And then I went aboutlisting out the answers and gathering upthe materials that led to them.From another perspective that book was first puttogether as a collection of teaching materialsfor Chinese students at the Chengdu Universityof TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminarthere on translation of Chinese medical termsand texts. In fact, during the publication processthe whole manuscript had to go through a completeoverhaul when we realized that it was stillfocusing on problems facing Chinese studentsand that we intended it to be primarily ofuse to non-Chinese readers. Interesting exercise for the writers in the crowd: takesomething you've written and write it overfor a different cultural mindset.I mention all of this because I have giventhe question you're asking a great deal of thought over the past ten years. What constitutesproficiency and how is such proficiency to beachieved?I'd say that someone needs to be quite familiar with the material covered in Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapterin that book is a list of about 100 Chinesemedical terms, and at the time we putthat book together it was our answer tothe question in terms of a basic vocabularythat a beginner should command.However£¬I believe that there will soon bevastly more comprehensive materials availableto address the issue of language learningquite directly and effectively.I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.There is a unique and beautiful efficiency tothe artifact of the Chinese language. It is a modelof organization, complexity, and methodologyfor the thinking that is found at work inall traditional arts and sciences, very muchincluding Chinese medicine. It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ridethe Dragon? will give you the specifics on whatwe continue to believe constitute the materialswith which one must be familiar in order toaccomplish this proficiency. I think one of thereviews at the amazon site suggests that thatbook be required reading for all studentsof Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point.After twenty five years of study in the subjectarea, I was able to put between the coversof a fairly slender volume everything thatI wished I had had access to when I'd firstset out on the path. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 Off the top of my head, I would think at least being able to read the characters for herbs >>>Knowing these have helped greatly in China. When trying to follow older pratitioners you need need to know how to read them in hand writing that is often done based on clasical characters.But, if one is not planing to go to China you are better off speding the time learnig the herbs. Alon - jramholz Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:43 AM Re: Chinese language requirements Ken, Dan, Bob, others:What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of study in a curriculum?Off the top of my head, I would think at least being able to read the characters for herbs and acupuncture points.Jim Ramholz, "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote:> Dan,> > > > > In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more > > difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of > > time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next > > year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese > > for entry into our program. > > This is very encouraging. I know that your> school has taken the lead in this direction> and that your leadership has long served> a defining role in the field. I hope> that others see the wisdom in what you're> doing and follow suit.> > With the application and presumed eventual> approval for accreditation of the new> doctorate level programs, the matter of> community standards looms as critcal> as the accreditation agency must develop> effective ways to implement the standards> that have been adopted. > > The move to require an introduction to> Chinese language is an important step> to the establishment of generally> higher standards. I applaud it.> > KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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