Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 john: agree on all pts. btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned a master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as well go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. degrees. if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care givers in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and so on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards [boards is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, specialties is a topic for a New Thread). and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a west country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain areas when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of those areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in order for personal survival). my Opinions, kath On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko wrote: > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > post-grad programs.. > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) and/or > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > research PhDs. > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and there's > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational material > in one year).. > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is considered a > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad program > for > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize terminology, > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > for the FPD. > > K > > > > K > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > wrote: > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > If we want to see a > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start > the > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in my > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > handing > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which i > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are a > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > kath > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > Perform all that is good. > > Purify your thoughts. > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > Joseph Campbell > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010  Hi Kath: -Kath-- and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a west country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. ---  That's a total misreading of my points. It seems to happen quite a lot here. I have two beliefs about why it happens: I don't have a degree in English and therefore I communicate very poorly, or many people here are too schooled in western methods and simply don't have a good grasp of Chinese science.  Of course, I would like to believe the latter.  " The way our education system works " is also a very ethnocentric point of view, by the way. -Kath-- say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a part/service the mainstream establishment. ---  I agree, never stated differently, I point out that there is a difference between selling out/capitulation and intelligent adaptation with our end-goals clearly in sight.  Thanks,  Hugo  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ " " <Chinese Medicine > Sat, 24 April, 2010 8:18:15 Re: Re: Degrees  john: agree on all pts. btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned a master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as well go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. degrees. if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care givers in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and so on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards [boards is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, specialties is a topic for a New Thread). and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a west country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain areas when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of those areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in order for personal survival). my Opinions, kath On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > post-grad programs.. > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the- blank. > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) and/or > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > research PhDs. > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and there's > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational material > in one year).. > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is considered a > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad program > for > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize terminology, > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > for the FPD. > > K > > > > K > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > <acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com>wrote: > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > If we want to see a > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start > the > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in my > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > handing > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which i > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are a > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > kath > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > Perform all that is good. > > Purify your thoughts. > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > Joseph Campbell > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > http://acukath. blogspot. com/ > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > http://www.amazon. com/Flying- Dragon-Liniment- Eco-Friendly- Wild-Crafted/ dp/B001OC1AZ2/ ref=sr_1_ 1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid= 1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com<kbartlett%40Acupun ctureAsheville. com> > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 I didn't miss any point On a state by state basis MDs actually more often than not DO get paid for acupuncture. In Florida for those policies which cover acupuncture the carrier refuse the licensed APs advising in the EOB that THEY do NOT reimburse UNLESS you are an MD. Secondly they further discriminate by not reimbursing for other modalities LEGALLY within the APs scope. But the heart of the point is that MDs should NOT be allowed to even pick up an acupuncture needle without the minimum 2150 hours acupuncture program. That's why I keep pointing to Hawaii's legislative brilliance. NO ONE can use acupuncture without the 4 yr program. END OF STORY. That's the way it should be in EVERY state. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 12:31:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: But you appear to have missed the point. The point is that MDs don't get paid for acupuncture by insurance any more than we do. It must be covered by insurance for the insurance to pay it. And most insurance does not cover acupuncture. That was the point. I have practiced in California and Louisiana and I don't see much difference at all in acupucture coverage. Sincerely, djs Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:07:12 -0400 Re: TCM - Re: Degrees Don Agreed that certain states have such differences. The majority do not. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 12:03:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: Richard, This is not at all true. Here in Louisiana I must practice under an MDs license. Therefore I bill using his license and number. Believe me, they do not always get paid for doing acupuncture because they are an MD. Only about 10% of insurance pays for acupuncture whether you are an MD or not. What I do get paid for when using the MDs license is physical medicine. That's one of the reasons I practice integrated, I get paid for physical medicine by insurance all day long. But the patients pay cash for the acupuncture. And they do pay, and they do get magnificent results when the two modalities are combined. Sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:54:13 -0400 Re: TCM - Re: Degrees Thanks again to David Maloney advising me to mind my own business in Florida in 1998. Fulfilling as the bouncer ever since....maybe too well. Been attacking the MDs on and off since 1998 for doing acupuncture in Florida without ANY required hours of education. Sometimes one needs to attack collaterally. Several years ago I filed Dept of Health complaints against 30 MDs/DOs for using titles after their names as being Board Certified in Acupuncture by the AAMA. That's illegal here since the American Board of Medical Specialties has no such Board Certification and the AMA laughs at acupuncture. Of course all the DOH did unofficially behind the scenes was have the MDs stop using those initials. Still.....it had its effect. You are soooo right Kim. It is hard to believe that some want us to conform to the kind of insanity that it's perfectly ALRIGHT for MDs/DOs etc to use acupuncture without ANY education..... not to forget that when they do they bill and get reimbursed which adds insult to injury. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:43:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kuangguiyu writes: Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 As I recall DAOM was being touted as a Non PhD Doctoral RESEARCH degree. Maybe that was not officially. In a message dated 4/24/2010 1:42:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, magisterium_magnum writes: A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree. This is why you do not write a dissertation. You do hours in the clinic instead. This is not uncommon. Do chiropractors write a dissertation? Do MD's write a dissertation? Do plumbers write a dissertation? Apologies if I came across as angry or combative earlier. I don't mean to have that type of tone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 I don't disagree with what you explained. Just that what was marketed then sounds more and more like a con. In a message dated 4/24/2010 2:37:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, magisterium_magnum writes: That's because there's no real curriculum left to study, because it was all covered in the 6 year Master's degree. So then they have to say " research " emphasis, because there's nothing else left to study. But there is also a difference between " research " in the sense of writing a dissertation on a topic and " research " in the sense of doing experimental studies. Big difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Kath, yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate degree and there needs to be: 1. higher entrance standards 2. more classical text and biomedical integration 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of practitioners, so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for the future. One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. Another thing: I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others coming out have doctorates that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, but have a more respected degree than they do. This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting past CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, or online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? K On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, wrote: > > > john: agree on all pts. > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned a > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as well > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > degrees. > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > givers > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and > so > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards [boards > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, specialties > is a topic for a New Thread). > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a west > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > areas > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > those > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > order > for personal survival). > > my Opinions, > > kath > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > post-grad programs.. > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > and/or > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > research PhDs. > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > there's > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > material > > in one year).. > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is considered > a > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad program > > for > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > terminology, > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > for the FPD. > > > > K > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start > > the > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in > my > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > handing > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which > i > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are > a > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > Perform all that is good. > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 JK: " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Kath, > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate degree > and there needs to be: > 1. higher entrance standards > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > practitioners, > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > the future. > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > Another thing: > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > coming out have doctorates > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > but have a more respected degree than they do. > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting past > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, or > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > K > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > wrote: > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned > a > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > well > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > degrees. > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > givers > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and > > so > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > [boards > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > specialties > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > west > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > areas > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > those > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > order > > for personal survival). > > > > my Opinions, > > > > kath > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > post-grad programs.. > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > and/or > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > there's > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > material > > > in one year).. > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > considered > > a > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > program > > > for > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > terminology, > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > start > > > the > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > in > > my > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > not > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > handing > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > which > > i > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > are > > a > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > kbartlett > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 I can't believe this conversation. If you want to observe ethnocentric, visit Japan, China, Egypt, Africa, etc. this political correctness has gone absolutely mad. Each ethnic group is, by definition, ethnocentric. We happen to live in the west, therefore we conform or die. Stop this madness. Since we are not more powerful or wealthier than the powers that be, we must conform. If you want change, do it from within, not without. We must work within the mainstream, using mainstream paradigms. That does not mean that our wonderful medical system needs to change the way it thinks (though I believe it must adapt to survive), but we must follow, and use, the educational system as it is. Just a thought. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine subincor Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:44:18 +0000 Re: Re: Degrees Hi Kath: -Kath-- and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a west country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. --- That's a total misreading of my points. It seems to happen quite a lot here. I have two beliefs about why it happens: I don't have a degree in English and therefore I communicate very poorly, or many people here are too schooled in western methods and simply don't have a good grasp of Chinese science. Of course, I would like to believe the latter. " The way our education system works " is also a very ethnocentric point of view, by the way. -Kath-- say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a part/service the mainstream establishment. --- I agree, never stated differently, I point out that there is a difference between selling out/capitulation and intelligent adaptation with our end-goals clearly in sight. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ " " <Chinese Medicine > Sat, 24 April, 2010 8:18:15 Re: Re: Degrees john: agree on all pts. btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned a master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as well go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. degrees. if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care givers in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and so on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards [boards is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, specialties is a topic for a New Thread). and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a west country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain areas when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of those areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in order for personal survival). my Opinions, kath On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > post-grad programs.. > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the- blank. > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) and/or > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > research PhDs. > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and there's > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational material > in one year).. > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is considered a > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad program > for > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize terminology, > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > for the FPD. > > K > > > > K > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > <acukath (AT) gmail (DOT) com>wrote: > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > If we want to see a > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start > the > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in my > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > handing > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which i > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are a > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > kath > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > Perform all that is good. > > Purify your thoughts. > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > Joseph Campbell > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > http://acukath. blogspot. com/ > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > http://www.amazon. com/Flying- Dragon-Liniment- Eco-Friendly- Wild-Crafted/ dp/B001OC1AZ2/ ref=sr_1_ 1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid= 1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com<kbartlett%40Acupun ctureAsheville. com> > > www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Kim, I think that it's unreasonable with the resources that we have or don't have with the acupuncture organizations to fight the AMA and the ACA, but it is reasonable to improve our own professional standards. K On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyuwrote: > > > JK: > > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > Kath, > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate > degree > > and there needs to be: > > 1. higher entrance standards > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > > practitioners, > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > > the future. > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > Another thing: > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > > coming out have doctorates > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting > past > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, > or > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only > earned > > a > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > > well > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that > our > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > > degrees. > > > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > > givers > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). > as > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, > and > > > so > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > > [boards > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, > orthopedics, > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > > specialties > > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > > west > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not > to > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > > areas > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > > those > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > > order > > > for personal survival). > > > > > > my Opinions, > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > > post-grad programs.. > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > > and/or > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ > page > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > > there's > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > > material > > > > in one year).. > > > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > > considered > > > a > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > > program > > > > for > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > > terminology, > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 > full > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com > >>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > > start > > > > the > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they > match > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > > in > > > my > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, > i > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > > not > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > > handing > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > > which > > > i > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > > are > > > a > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 This is so true. I am a due paying member of the our (so called powerful) nation groups and I often don't feel represented at all. They are our bouncers and they are not doing their job. I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that their resources are so limited that they must pick-and-choose their issues. Aside from our wayward organizations, a big problem is lack of support (and funding) of our organizations. Not many of us " belong. " We need to put our money where our mouth is; but our mouth is always where our money and support is not. If we all contributed, then if an organization began to change direction, we could withhold our support. That would necessitate change within the organization. But for some reason we do not support our organizations for whatever reason (there is always an excuse). Perhaps that is what needs to be done, whether we like it or not. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine kuangguiyu Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:43:19 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees JK: " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Kath, > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate degree > and there needs to be: > 1. higher entrance standards > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > practitioners, > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > the future. > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > Another thing: > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > coming out have doctorates > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > but have a more respected degree than they do. > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting past > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, or > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > K > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > wrote: > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned > a > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > well > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > degrees. > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > givers > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and > > so > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > [boards > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > specialties > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > west > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > areas > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > those > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > order > > for personal survival). > > > > my Opinions, > > > > kath > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > post-grad programs.. > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > and/or > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > there's > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > material > > > in one year).. > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > considered > > a > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > program > > > for > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > terminology, > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > start > > > the > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > in > > my > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > not > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > handing > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > which > > i > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > are > > a > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > kbartlett > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Richard, This is not at all true. Here in Louisiana I must practice under an MDs license. Therefore I bill using his license and number. Believe me, they do not always get paid for doing acupuncture because they are an MD. Only about 10% of insurance pays for acupuncture whether you are an MD or not. What I do get paid for when using the MDs license is physical medicine. That's one of the reasons I practice integrated, I get paid for physical medicine by insurance all day long. But the patients pay cash for the acupuncture. And they do pay, and they do get magnificent results when the two modalities are combined. Sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:54:13 -0400 Re: Re: Degrees Thanks again to David Maloney advising me to mind my own business in Florida in 1998. Fulfilling as the bouncer ever since....maybe too well. Been attacking the MDs on and off since 1998 for doing acupuncture in Florida without ANY required hours of education. Sometimes one needs to attack collaterally. Several years ago I filed Dept of Health complaints against 30 MDs/DOs for using titles after their names as being Board Certified in Acupuncture by the AAMA. That's illegal here since the American Board of Medical Specialties has no such Board Certification and the AMA laughs at acupuncture. Of course all the DOH did unofficially behind the scenes was have the MDs stop using those initials. Still.....it had its effect. You are soooo right Kim. It is hard to believe that some want us to conform to the kind of insanity that it's perfectly ALRIGHT for MDs/DOs etc to use acupuncture without ANY education..... not to forget that when they do they bill and get reimbursed which adds insult to injury. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:43:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kuangguiyu writes: Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Donald, I agree. We don't even have lobbyists in the capitols. It takes money to buy lobbyists, so if people really care, they should donate money to their non-profit acupuncture associations and then get involved. K On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > This is so true. I am a due paying member of the our (so called powerful) > nation groups and I often don't feel represented at all. They are our > bouncers and they are not doing their job. I believe (perhaps incorrectly) > that their resources are so limited that they must pick-and-choose their > issues. Aside from our wayward organizations, a big problem is lack of > support (and funding) of our organizations. Not many of us " belong. " We > need to put our money where our mouth is; but our mouth is always where our > money and support is not. If we all contributed, then if an organization > began to change direction, we could withhold our support. That would > necessitate change within the organization. But for some reason we do not > support our organizations for whatever reason (there is always an excuse). > > > > Perhaps that is what needs to be done, whether we like it or not. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine > kuangguiyu > Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:43:19 -0700 > Re: Re: Degrees > > > > > > JK: > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > Kath, > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate > degree > > and there needs to be: > > 1. higher entrance standards > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > > practitioners, > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > > the future. > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > Another thing: > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > > coming out have doctorates > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting > past > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, > or > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only > earned > > a > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > > well > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that > our > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > > degrees. > > > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > > givers > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). > as > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, > and > > > so > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > > [boards > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, > orthopedics, > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > > specialties > > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > > west > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not > to > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > > areas > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > > those > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > > order > > > for personal survival). > > > > > > my Opinions, > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > > post-grad programs.. > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > > and/or > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ > page > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > > there's > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > > material > > > > in one year).. > > > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > > considered > > > a > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > > program > > > > for > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > > terminology, > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 > full > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > > start > > > > the > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they > match > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > > in > > > my > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, > i > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > > not > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > > handing > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > > which > > > i > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > > are > > > a > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > kbartlett > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 John - Please explain how improving our professional standards will prevent us from being " taken for all of our chips " . Kim On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Kim, > I think that it's unreasonable with the resources that we have or don't > have > with the acupuncture organizations to fight the AMA and the ACA, but it is > reasonable to improve our own professional standards. > > K > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Kim Blankenship <kuangguiyu > >wrote: > > > > > > > JK: > > > > > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of > > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the > possible > > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very > > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the > doors. > > > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > Kath, > > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate > > degree > > > and there needs to be: > > > 1. higher entrance standards > > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > > > practitioners, > > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession > for > > > the future. > > > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing > " dry > > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , > DCs > > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > > > Another thing: > > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > > > coming out have doctorates > > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting > > past > > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree > exam, > > or > > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only > > earned > > > a > > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't > reflect > > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might > as > > > well > > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that > > our > > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had > dr. > > > > degrees. > > > > > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > > > givers > > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this > way). > > as > > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, > > and > > > > so > > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > > > [boards > > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for > this > > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, > > orthopedics, > > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > > > specialties > > > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is > a > > > west > > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not > > to > > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is > the > > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be > a > > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not > a > > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in > certain > > > > areas > > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one > of > > > > those > > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent > in > > > > order > > > > for personal survival). > > > > > > > > my Opinions, > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko > <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than > most > > > > > post-grad programs.. > > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing > and > > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating > (business/sciences) > > > > and/or > > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ > > page > > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal > for > > > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > > > there's > > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > > > material > > > > > in one year).. > > > > > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > > > considered > > > > a > > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > > > program > > > > > for > > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > > > terminology, > > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 > > full > > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why > I'm > > > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> <acukath%40gmail.com > > >>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > > > start > > > > > the > > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they > > match > > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu > college > > > in > > > > my > > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. > pcom, > > i > > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers > are > > > not > > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter > of > > > > > handing > > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > > > which > > > > i > > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that > we > > > are > > > > a > > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & > Spirituality: > > > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & > joints > > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > > kbartlett > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Richard, Much of what you say is true, we are apathetic. That is the very reason that we must support our national organizations. We pay them them to not be apathetic. That is why the MDs and DC have powerful lobbies. As individuals, MDs and DCs are no different that us; they, too, are apathetic. But their organization are not. Secondly, and I don't want to appear to be attacking anyone, but you made some statements that need to be defined. You state that these organization were " formed and controlled since their inception by one person and his cronies. " The magic question is: Who would that one person and what would be the names of his " cronies? " Are they still around. It must be noted that any one of us can run for the office of one of our national organization and probably get elected, as nobody really wants the jobs. (usually only one person runs unopposed). Anyway, I have often heard these rumors and since you brought it up, I would really like to be enlightened. Thanks, I am sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:04:41 -0400 Re: Re: Degrees Look back to the inception of ALL of those national organizations. Formed and controlled since their inception by one person with his cronies. And they had their own agenda ......IMO to be primarily needle stickers. So whether the apathetic starving majority gave money or not there were zero positive results. In part the attempt to create a new Accrediting agency which apparently failed. In part the creation of our AOMNCC which actually succeeded but not for money. At one point the AOMNCC has as many members if not more than AAAOM. But alas....the majority of practitioners are apathetic. Appears to be the same with all professions. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:57:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: This is so true. I am a due paying member of the our (so called powerful) nation groups and I often don't feel represented at all. They are our bouncers and they are not doing their job. I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that their resources are so limited that they must pick-and-choose their issues. Aside from our wayward organizations, a big problem is lack of support (and funding) of our organizations. Not many of us " belong. " We need to put our money where our mouth is; but our mouth is always where our money and support is not. If we all contributed, then if an organization began to change direction, we could withhold our support. That would necessitate change within the organization. But for some reason we do not support our organizations for whatever reason (there is always an excuse). Perhaps that is what needs to be done, whether we like it or not. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine kuangguiyu Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:43:19 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees JK: " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Kath, > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate deg ree > and there needs to be: > 1. higher entrance standards > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > practitioners, > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > the future. > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > Another thing: > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > coming out have doctorates > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > but have a more respected degree than they do. > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting past > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, or > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > K > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > wrote: > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned > a > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > well > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > degrees. > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > givers > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and > > so > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > [boards > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > specialties > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > west > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > areas > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > those > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > order > > for personal survival). > > > > my Opinions, > > > > kath > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > post-grad programs.. > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > and/or > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > there's > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > material > > > in one year).. > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > considered > > a > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > program > > > for > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > terminology, > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > start > > > the > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > in > > my > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > not > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > handing > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > which > > i > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > are > > a > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > kbartlett > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 But you appear to have missed the point. The point is that MDs don't get paid for acupuncture by insurance any more than we do. It must be covered by insurance for the insurance to pay it. And most insurance does not cover acupuncture. That was the point. I have practiced in California and Louisiana and I don't see much difference at all in acupucture coverage. Sincerely, djs Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:07:12 -0400 Re: Re: Degrees Don Agreed that certain states have such differences. The majority do not. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 12:03:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: Richard, This is not at all true. Here in Louisiana I must practice under an MDs license. Therefore I bill using his license and number. Believe me, they do not always get paid for doing acupuncture because they are an MD. Only about 10% of insurance pays for acupuncture whether you are an MD or not. What I do get paid for when using the MDs license is physical medicine. That's one of the reasons I practice integrated, I get paid for physical medicine by insurance all day long. But the patients pay cash for the acupuncture. And they do pay, and they do get magnificent results when the two modalities are combined. Sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:54:13 -0400 Re: Re: Degrees Thanks again to David Maloney advising me to mind my own business in Florida in 1998. Fulfilling as the bouncer ever since....maybe too well. Been attacking the MDs on and off since 1998 for doing acupuncture in Florida without ANY required hours of education. Sometimes one needs to attack collaterally. Several years ago I filed Dept of Health complaints against 30 MDs/DOs for using titles after their names as being Board Certified in Acupuncture by the AAMA. That's illegal here since the American Board of Medical Specialties has no such Board Certification and the AMA laughs at acupuncture. Of course all the DOH did unofficially behind the scenes was have the MDs stop using those initials. Still.....it had its effect. You are soooo right Kim. It is hard to believe that some want us to conform to the kind of insanity that it's perfectly ALRIGHT for MDs/DOs etc to use acupuncture without ANY education..... not to forget that when they do they bill and get reimbursed which adds insult to injury. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:43:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kuangguiyu writes: Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) are not even in a level of an undergrad term paper, they do not even come close to a doctorate dissertation. I have seen one done by a very smart Harvard undergrad graduate were i was told she was limited in what she was allowed to do in terms of size being told to keep it quite short. I have also been told by some that have done such programs up here in northern ca that 90% of what they did was a waste of time. Very little was really new for them and was mostly more of the same. I wander what % of DAOM graduates really think it was worth the time 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Alon said: the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) are not even in a level of an undergrad term paper Mercurius said: A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. Joe sez: wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree is based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at least be able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding you back - make it shorter... Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was demo - Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision (minimal?) not watching... some of the participants were quite happy - good many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent something much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in school, my teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " 6 years in school 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient contacts and they did it in Chinese me thinks that many want what they haven't earned Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Joe sez: sorry - 6 years of school earned a BS in TCM!!!! how do you guys justify calling your degree almost a doctorate when most schools are only 3 or 4 years, part time not full time, in English not Chinese and you never heard of hardly ANY of the info before hand instead of growing up steeped in the culture?!?!?!?! I don't get it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree. This is why you do not write a dissertation. You do hours in the clinic instead. This is not uncommon. Do chiropractors write a dissertation? Do MD's write a dissertation? Do plumbers write a dissertation? Apologies if I came across as angry or combative earlier. I don't mean to have that type of tone. - " alon marcus " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, April 24, 2010 10:10 AM Re: Degrees > the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) > are not even in a level of an undergrad term paper, they do not even > come close to a doctorate dissertation. I have seen one done by a very > smart Harvard undergrad graduate were i was told she was limited in > what she was allowed to do in terms of size being told to keep it > quite short. I have also been told by some that have done such > programs up here in northern ca that 90% of what they did was a waste > of time. Very little was really new for them and was mostly more of > the same. I wander what % of DAOM graduates really think it was worth > the time > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > alonmarcus > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 That's because there's no real curriculum left to study, because it was all covered in the 6 year Master's degree. So then they have to say " research " emphasis, because there's nothing else left to study. But there is also a difference between " research " in the sense of writing a dissertation on a topic and " research " in the sense of doing experimental studies. Big difference. - <acudoc11 <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:00 AM Re: Re: Degrees > As I recall DAOM was being touted as a Non PhD Doctoral RESEARCH degree. > Maybe that was not officially. > > > In a message dated 4/24/2010 1:42:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > magisterium_magnum writes: > > A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree. This is why you do not write a > dissertation. You do hours in the clinic instead. This is not uncommon. > Do chiropractors write a dissertation? Do MD's write a dissertation? Do > plumbers write a dissertation? > Apologies if I came across as angry or combative earlier. I don't mean to > have that type of tone. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Mercurius Trismegistus said: That's because there's no real curriculum left to study, because it was all covered in the 6 year Master's degree. So then they have to say " research " emphasis, because there's nothing else left to study. Joe sez: [?] [?] [?] [?] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 John, In my classes (formulas and SHL/Wen Bing) I give only essay tests, and have students verbalize cases and concepts to develop their logical skills, which are essential for the study and practice of Chinese medicine. On Apr 23, 2010, at 5:46 PM, wrote: > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > post-grad programs.. > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) and/or > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > research PhDs. > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and there's > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational material > in one year).. > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is considered a > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad program for > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize terminology, > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > for the FPD. > > K > > > > K > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > wrote: > >> >> >> rosemary: >> >> >> If we want to see a >> doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start the >> teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match >> salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. >> >> i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in my >> town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i >> understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not >> professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of handing >> out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which i >> feel our academics & schools should meet. >> >> part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are a >> female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. >> >> my Opinion folks, >> >> kath >> >> >> -- >> >> Oriental Medicine >> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective >> >> Abstain from all that is evil. >> Perform all that is good. >> Purify your thoughts. >> This is the teaching of the Buddhas. >> >> Follow Your Bliss! >> Joseph Campbell >> >> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: >> http://acukath.blogspot.com/ >> >> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints >> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist >> Available at Asheville Center for : >> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com >> >> Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC >> >> Amazon.com >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 >> >> and from the following supply companies: >> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown >> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 >> >> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC >> >> http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= >> >> Asheville Center For >> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two >> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 >> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> >> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 why then have a final paper? 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 My school makes you think it will take three years, but it takes four. That's full time, not part time. And it's trimesters. So you go during the summer as well. Which is the equivelent of 6 years. Not sure what you're talking about. - " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:17 AM Re: Re: Degrees > Joe sez: > sorry - > 6 years of school earned a BS in TCM!!!! > how do you guys justify calling your degree almost a doctorate when most > schools are only 3 or 4 years, part time not full time, in English not > Chinese > and you never heard of hardly ANY of the info before hand instead of > growing > up steeped in the culture?!?!?!?! > > I don't get it > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 25, 2010 You're saying I have 10 semesters of postgrad and I haven't earned a doctorate? As for quality of work, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the fact that some schools are better than others? That's neither here nor there. Are you saying that the TCM curriculum as such is substandard, and we could study it for ten years and still be inadequate? I seem to get pretty good results from my treatments. - " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:13 AM Re: Re: Degrees > Alon said: > the final papers i have seen coming out of DAOM programs (only a few) are > not even in a level of an undergrad term paper > > Mercurius said: > A DAOM is not a research emphasis degree.. > > Joe sez: > wasn't the point about the low quality of work? not whether the degree is > based on a paper. If you want to be called " doctor " you should at least be > able to write an appropriate paper. The school shouldn't be holding you > back > - make it shorter... > > Have gone to some DAOM classes as CEU - most of the " clinic " was demo - > Doctor candidates should be seeing 100s of patients with supervision > (minimal?) not watching... > > some of the participants were quite happy - good > many said that about 1/2 the classes were good to excellent > 1/2 of the classes were poor to painful > sound familiar? where have I had a similar experience? > > > To claim to be a " Doctor " of Chinese medicine should represent something > much, much higher than so many extra CEU classes. When I was in school, my > teachers recited - " it takes 10 years to make a doctor " > 6 years in school > 4 years supervised hospital experience and many, many 1000s of patient > contacts > and they did it in Chinese > > me thinks that many want what they haven't earned > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
