Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 There is more to the world than just Europe and the USA. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine angelapfa Fri, 23 Apr 2010 11:52:47 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees Honestly, I think you are confused about foreign medical education. In Almost all European countries you need to complete the International baccalaurea BEFORE entering any university, meaning, whatever Americans do in their freshmen and sophomore years, Europeans do as part of the baccalaurea, including organic chemistry and calculus. Then they do 2 years of anatomy, kinesiology, and physiology etc and pass an exam about those subjects, then they enter a 4 year medical school which graduates them as MDs. Another problem I have with this discussion is that is places a premium on quantity, meaning how many years of training, and not on quality, meaning, how demanding is it. I earned a doctorate at an ordinary, fully accredited university and thinking that acupuncture school is equivalent to a doctoral level training convinces me that you don't know what doctoral level training is like. It's not memorization, which seems to be what most acupuncture schools place a premium on, and the students I taught at acupuncture schools did not show much inclination to do much else. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - mike Bowser Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, April 23, 2010 11:38 AM RE: Re: Degrees Don, Totally with you on this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Traditional Medicine don83407 Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:06:54 -0500 RE: Re: Degrees It must be noted that a four year degree is not a requirement for medical school. Two years is required, although most people in this country do have a four year degree before entry into medical school. Secondly, in most medical schools around the world they award medical degrees as BM/BS. This is a four year degree with no pre-med requirements. Some, like Panama, require 6 years of school. But no country requires 8 years. That being said, I, too, like the idea of all AOM students entering with a Bachelor's degree. I would also like to see the current curriculum tightened somewhat for rigor and substance. I do like the bio-med requirements and would like to see all graduates able to order and read basic lab reports, x-rays, and MRIs. I would like to see more practical and applied bio-med along with more in-depth teaching of the AOM Classics. However, this is only my opinion. I am sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine anne.crowley Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:08:55 +0000 Re: Re: Degrees John: This undergraduate requirment should be 4 years. It never even crosses my mind that I would go to an MD that did not have an undergraduate degree. That is why I am not too excited about the FPD. Let's get the basics down first - 4 years of undergraduate degree should be required of all professional degrees. Then the grade entry requirement has to increase. These are basics that need to be addressed before adding more years of school - reseach or clinical. I could support this Doctorate but let's get clear on whether it is clinical training or research or both that is being added to all this time in school. Right now I see a lot of acupuncturists struggling to stay in practice - I don't think this degree is going to be the answer. If one wants to further their studies, I am all for that - just don't make it a standard of the field. Very few people will enter it. Many will need to go work for hospitals - maybe they will pay for all that education. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " " <johnkokko " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 8:50:51 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Re: Degrees Jason, I totally agree with your inference that 2 years of undergrad, plus 3-4 years of post-grad doesn't exactly equate to a doctoral level degree, if that's what you were leading towards... Just a comparison with chiropractors: 2-4 years of undergrad (more bio-medical prerequisites than TCM school) 4 years of post-grad (4000+ hours) or MDs : 4 years of undergrad (not required, but expected) MCAT preparation and completion 4 years of post-grad (4000++ hours) 2-3 years minimum of residency If we're to progress with the FPD, the undergraduate hours requirement for entrance into a DAOM program needs to increase. 3 years, I believe, is the new proposed pre-requisite. And even more importantly, the level of education while in TCM school needs to be improved (this is what people have been saying since I've been in school). The areas where I've heard the most complaints are : lack of pulse practice all western bio-medicine classes need to be updated and/or become more practical more clinical practice in externship sites ie. hospitals (integrated settings) K 2010/4/23 > > > I really don�t have anything to add, but I was just curious if schools > still allow students to enter their masters program with only 2 years of > undergraduate work (and no degree)? Is this common for other medical > professions? > > -Jason > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 -Donald-- There is more to the world than just Europe and the USA. --- No there isn't. Hugo " u guys r making me fighty " Ramiro ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Mike Bowser said So why not clean it up and repackage it as a FPD, which is what we all think it is? Joe sez: hold on there buddy, I agree with much of what you say but you are over-generalizing. My colleagues and I think that what we earn is only a BS and it's a joke to call it a MS! Many students have only 2 years of general ed going into school and what little they think they know about CM and yinyang and 5 elements is just plain wrong! Better schools Better students more rigor 10X more patients how many graduates can locate all of the points correctly? few how many graduates know all of the herbs in all of the formulas? few most schools are teaching " 4 gates " and xiao yao san nah, the education has a long, long way to go before people are " doctors " of anything " clean it up " - totally! But there is much scrubbing ahead of us so get out the Brillo pads Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Hi All: As I have taken exception to this idea before, I must do so again. -Donald (and others)-- That being said, I, too, like the idea of all AOM students entering with a Bachelor's degree. --- I am (only) 35, and so perhaps I just haven't had enough time, but I am still undoing the damage done by my western education. I am surprised at the flippant attitude taken towards how human beings learn (not Donald's attitude in particular). Human beings buy into something when they learn - and whatever it is that they buy into will colour, distort, and, at best, inform any other practice they take upon themselves. I seldom see a western student, or a student FIRST trained in western methods, demonstrate a firm grasp of the core CM theory UNLESS they have made a commitment to wholesale reject their prior training (which does not mean LOSS of their prior training - wholesale rejection is state of mind, not brain-damage, ok? Geez.). In my class, the students who struggled the most were the ones already burdened by other hefty systems. I did not see them to go on to be the best practitioners necessarily. That would have made thigns easier. Just be western, and tack on a little Chin-eeze and you will have gotten the best of both worlds! They did test well! Unlike me. But I lived and breathed it. How do we test for THAT? As far as I am concerned, one of the reasons we see " poor " students in western schools is not only a fault of western schooling, but also reflects on the confused state-of-mind of modern TCM as well. Students come in expecting Chinese Medicine, something that IS very different from biomedicine, and get a lot of physiological analogies (and training) instead. I can understand that they would lose steam (and without being able to express why too!). The worst example I know of this happening is with the (now defunct) Michener Institute Acupuncture program at the University of Toronto. You know what a common behaviour was of those graduates? To go to ANOTHER school (private ones), upon graduation from the Michener, to relearn the damn thing that they didn't get the first time around because it was so watered down, superficial and mixed with biomedicine. Egads, chum. In this discussion I see, unfortunately, a lot of naivete with regards to what education is, how it is achieved, and what the dynamic of learning is. Again, the likely answer is that I did not learn enough in western school, and so obviously I would be against learning more since I wasn't smart enough to learn the western stuff. We need to know western stuff to be smart enough to learn this . I'm surprised I can spell, honestly. I don't have an English degree. Maybe I'm faking it. Hugo " doesn't need to drink to get fighty " Ramiro ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I agree. I came to AOM with a Master's degree in public health with an epidemiology leaning and I found AOM school to be on par or even more demanding in many ways. The content, of course, was different and there is a lot of memorization in AOM but that is the nature of the beast. We had to learn another language and way of thinking. I, of course also had a B.S. degree. So when I entered the MSTOM program at PCOM I already had bachelors and masters degrees. Most of the students at that time also had a bachelors. Then around the early 2002, 03 time something changed in AOM. Instead of have the average student having AOM as a second career (avg age 30s thru 50y/o) the students were entering this field in their late teens and early 20's. The change was remarkable. That's when I began to see AOM go mainstream. That's also when people came into AOM with undergrad degrees. I agree, the MSTOM was as rigorous as my western grad degree. And the DAOM was the grand daddy of rigor for me. Until one has experienced it, one cannot understand it. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:35:27 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees That's total bull. Have you taken postgrad courses elsewhere? TCM school is at least on par with that. Yes, there's an emphasis on memorization, but that's Chinese. That's how the medicine has come down. TCM school is harder than other grad schools, if anything. Don't even try to give me this bull about how it's easy, or about how we're not getting a real quality education. Yeah, there's alot of hippies who study this topic. But they do learn the material. They do study and there are standards in place. Be real. - " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:52 AM Re: Re: Degrees Honestly, I think you are confused about foreign medical education. In Almost all European countries you need to complete the International baccalaurea BEFORE entering any university, meaning, whatever Americans do in their freshmen and sophomore years, Europeans do as part of the baccalaurea, including organic chemistry and calculus. Then they do 2 years of anatomy, kinesiology, and physiology etc and pass an exam about those subjects, then they enter a 4 year medical school which graduates them as MDs. Another problem I have with this discussion is that is places a premium on quantity, meaning how many years of training, and not on quality, meaning, how demanding is it. I earned a doctorate at an ordinary, fully accredited university and thinking that acupuncture school is equivalent to a doctoral level training convinces me that you don't know what doctoral level training is like. It's not memorization, which seems to be what most acupuncture schools place a premium on, and the students I taught at acupuncture schools did not show much inclination to do much else. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - mike Bowser Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, April 23, 2010 11:38 AM RE: Re: Degrees Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Hi Kath and All, I am not joking, but I am not offended. I am trying to clarify what seem to be errors, from my p.o.v. I do not have a B.A. or a B.S. and I am sure I barely have my D.TCM (Perhaps because I don't have my B.A.!). I went (like a straight arrow) to TCM school without taking a detour through europe, literally, analogously and metaphorically. What *I* wish is that my TCM school offered courses in Chinese Language, Internal Practices, and the Chinese Social Sciences (which exist, just in case we are not clear on that). Other interesting courses would be comparative ethnographical surveys of language, culture, science and spirituality, Chinese herbiculture, Pao Zhi, and importantly, extensive Clinical internships. I could go on. We could come up with an immensely interesting curriculum. But no. Let's go get our B.A.s from John Q. University, where we will learn to think more and more like europeans/westerners, each day drawing further from the eastern shores we ostensibly have our sights on. I am concerned about our identity. Who are we trying to be like? My waxing melodrama may exist merely because I just finished my Fa Jing practice. This topic may not be important. I am also realising (in the past I merely SUSPECTED) that the the hours I put into meditation and internal cultivation (I am likely overstating myself - when I say " hours " it's probably more like " minutes " ) are largely a waste of time. I mean I don't actually achieve anything. Seriously, I don't have anything to show for it. (I always get hot in the face when someone asks me if I'm educated, and all I can say is " um, no, I'm, well ...uh, meditated? <pause> Is that even a word? " ) I support appropriate training in biomedicine, with opportunities for ongoing development in said area through CE. What is most important, however, is for students to wring the western (analytical, fragmental) methods out of their minds, let the dust settle, and consistently consider and absorb the Chinese Science of Medicine. Hope that wasn't too alien. Hugo " When you are in a hole, STOP DIGGING " Ramiro p.s. while it is possible that a version of hugo who also had a b.s. would be better for consulting, I am really not sure of that, interestingly. i am sure I would need a real degree to figure this one out. p.p.s. a scientist of some sort wrote the following (I will not provide references and have removed identifying comments in order to reduce its impact) (no, it's not me!): The question of bias in methodology and temrinology is a problem that faces researchers east, west, north and south; however, it faces Third World intellectuals with special keen-ness. For although they write in a cultural environment that has its own specific conceptual and cultural paradigms, they nevertheless encounter a foreign paradigm which attempts to impose itself upon their society and upon their very imagination and thoughts. When the term " developmental psychology " [...] is used in the West, [...] scholars also say " developmental psychology " , when " applied psychology " is mentioned they hurry to use the same term etc. Why not establish a new science with its own mechanisms, methodologies and points of reference to deal with epistemological biases and open of the gate of [...] with respect to them? ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ " " <Chinese Medicine > Fri, 23 April, 2010 13:08:29 Re: Re: Degrees hugo: i hope you are joking when you say this. if not, than i certainly did not convey my meaning well. kath On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > Hi Kath; > > So you wouldn't want to ever consult with me, am I correct? > > Hugo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I have to say I agree with Angela on this question. Nothing was more disheartening to me while at PCOM-NY than to spend days writing a research paper for my western pathology class, and to not only not get a drop of feedback on my effort but to not even get the paper returned. I'm fairly sure that the professor never even read the paper. (I got an " A " , but then everyone who turned in a paper got an " A " !) I had read 3 books cover to cover, plus consulted at least a half dozen other books as sources (my topic was septicemia); in addition I wove in the story of literally watching my father die of septicemia in a hospital while doctors and family stood by, hour by hour. So my paper was not only about the biomedical understanding and approach to septicemia but also touched on the sociology and psychology of this particular pathology. I not only used my intellect; I put my heart into that paper! The teacher said the papers weren't returned because they were too heavy to carry on the subway. And I have to say this sort of thing happened more than once. I don't really blame the individual teacher, who was actually quite intelligent and capable, and held an MD from another country. But I think what was at fault was the culture of the acupuncture school, the attitude toward teaching and the attitude of being a student. If we want to see a doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start the teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. And testing must go beyond testing for memorization of isolated facts. Really, once you're out there in practice, it's your perceptual abilities, your personal integration and embodiment of the medicine and your ability to think things through that really counts, not just your ability to remember facts. RoseAnne On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > That's total bull. Have you taken postgrad courses elsewhere? TCM school > is at least on par with that. Yes, there's an emphasis on memorization, but > > that's Chinese. That's how the medicine has come down. TCM school is > harder than other grad schools, if anything. Don't even try to give me this > > bull about how it's easy, or about how we're not getting a real quality > education. > Yeah, there's alot of hippies who study this topic. But they do learn the > material. They do study and there are standards in place. Be real. > > > - > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa<angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:52 AM > Re: Re: Degrees > > Honestly, I think you are confused about foreign medical education. > In Almost all European countries you need to complete the International > baccalaurea BEFORE entering any university, meaning, whatever Americans do > in their freshmen and sophomore years, Europeans do as part of the > baccalaurea, including organic chemistry and calculus. > Then they do 2 years of anatomy, kinesiology, and physiology etc and pass > an > exam about those subjects, then they enter a 4 year medical school which > graduates them as MDs. > > Another problem I have with this discussion is that is places a premium on > quantity, meaning how many years of training, and not on quality, meaning, > how demanding is it. I earned a doctorate at an ordinary, fully accredited > university and thinking that acupuncture school is equivalent to a doctoral > > level training convinces me that you don't know what doctoral level > training > is like. It's not memorization, which seems to be what most acupuncture > schools place a premium on, and the students I taught at acupuncture > schools > did not show much inclination to do much else. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > mike Bowser > To: Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:38 AM > RE: Re: Degrees > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Thanks for the story RoseAnne. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 I attended a meeting of the then AAAOM and the National Alliance group in the mid 1990s. The two main issues discussed at one meeting were the NCCA creating a board for orienal bodywork, and the idea of a Doctorate Degree. I walked away from that meeting really amazed at what a profession we have. A lot of people wanted minimal licensing requirements so NADA or NADA type practioners could practice in every state. Others wanted only to practice 5 element acupuncture and felt insulted that they should have to learn herbs or even 8 principals theory (heaven forbid western medicine). Those that wanted a full doctorate and full scope of practice were clearly in a minority. I gave up entirely on any hope of a national identity for chinese medicne and I don't see it much better today. One thing I did suggest was that those who supported, and those who opposed a board specialty for oriental bodywork should explore what the base curiculum for Chinese medicine should be. In other words what level of Nei Jing, Nan Jing, Shan han lun, wen bing, channel theory, classic pulse diagnosis, etc should be taught so someone can call themselves a practioner of Chinese medicine. It was just an idea, but if you only want to practice one style of acupuncture I guess it doesn't matter. Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Hi Angela and all: --Angela- Another problem I have with this discussion is that is places a premium on quantity, meaning how many years of training, and not on quality, meaning, how demanding is it. I earned a doctorate at an ordinary, fully accredited university and thinking that acupuncture school is equivalent to a doctoral level training convinces me that you don't know what doctoral level training is like. It's not memorization, which seems to be what most acupuncture schools place a premium on, and the students I taught at acupuncture schools did not show much inclination to do much else. --- I agree that quality is more important than quantity, but I think your doctoral school may have convinced you that quality equals difficulty, or intensity. That is incorrect. I find it to be a common confusion related to how humans perceive risk (i.e. emotionally). The med students I come into contact with are impressed with themselves and self-congratulatory about the " rigour " of their programs when what they mean is only " difficulty " . Rigour can mean harshness and rigid strictness, but it also implies " correctness " as in a mathematical or logical rigour. Too often the second definition is given up and the physical and mental difficulties are awarded the pedestal. In actuality, quality involves the nature, or characteristic of a phenomena. It can also involve the purity or integrity of a phenomena. One thing I can't get my mind around, and I am sure that my better educated colleagues can " school " me on this, regards what it is, exactly that a western education will get, well, ME, for example. I've been following the conversation quietly, and what I seem to understand is that the characteristics of analysis, rigour and effort are trained for in western education. I'll be honest with you: this conversation shares important characteristics, or Qualities, of the " MMA versus TaiChi " discussions I have heard. " MMA " means " Mixed Martial Arts " , or conveniently in our case, " Modern Martial Arts " . As in the moderns versus the savages. In any case, CM does not need analysis, rigour or effort as trained for in western education. In fact, training for analysis closes the heart. So how are we going to resolve these antithetical concepts? Please raise your hand if you have an answer. How many people can *feel* the qi vacate the rest of the body and concentrate in the head when analysis and " critical thinking " is going on (I would expect that most of you can)? So, obviously, what happens when that is going on most of the time? I'll be more specific - I have seen my friends go through western university and almost without exception (there have been some survivors thank the ****!) they have learned to be more critical thinkers. Of course, the first problem is the excessive thinking, but let's just let that dead horse just LIE there! The critical aspect, however, is deeply troubling to me. These friends of mine have a great capacity to Project (this is a technical term from western psychology which essentially means they can't see past the tip of their own noses) their " critical thinking " , and little to no capacity to engage in true introspection. Brain can't look at itself, people. Try it...you will get a brain sprain. And I don't have a treatment for that other than neglect. It all really is like the poorest form of Wai Dan (break for explanation) - (Wai Dan / External Training will adjust the qi and flesh on the outer levels of the body, and then, if it is advanced enough, direct it internally to the deeper levels of the body. How many of us have met athletes who are powerfully strong, great heart rate and lung capacity - true athletes at peak performance... but with a host of internal organ problems from our p.o.v.? This is low level Wai Dan - means externally strong, internally weak.) People who have this " critical " thinking business are like Wai Dan MMA athletes who are able to fight, powerfully, an external opponent...and have little effective capacity to fight the only opponent that matters - their internal one. (THEMSELVES for those of you who have started drinking as you read my posts) Now, if we can say that a warrior requires an ability to tame the opponent within, how much more true must that be for a doctor. How much, exactly do we, as the types of doctors we purport to be, require training that will make us mental cases? The Matrix movies had a simplistic but largely accurate portrayal of yin and yang in the Architect and the Oracle. I guess at this point I could refer to an " authority " , who as we've found from other sources, wished he had diapers: ch 47 Without going out your door you can know the ways of the world. Without peeping through your window you can see the way of heaven The farther you go the less you know [and so on...] Now I'm waiting for some smart-aleck to quote chapter 56 to me. Just try it buddy, just try it. Get it straight guys and gals: western training is Wai-Dan, is Nei Dan. Experiment: Train tai chi and do a lot of western style cross-training as well, neglect the traditional " strengthening practices " , go back a year or two later and see how much worse you are than the students who only did the traditional Tai Chi, which involves lots of standing around " meditating " . It's a great experiment. I was too smart to do it, so I don't really know. Failure of my critical thinking faculty, really. Make sure, as you carry out your experiment, to really get that heart rate up and sweat a lot, that'll be really good, get that blood pumping. It may be that only Tai Chi practitioners will be following me at this point. Sometimes I don't know where I am...this is the forum, is it not? Thanks for your patience, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:56 AM RE: Re: Degrees > > I second the motion. That is exactly what needs to be done. Tighten and > change the current curriculum without exceeding the 4000-4200 total hour > range, and let it be the new OMD/DAOM/or whatever you want to call it FPD. > This would be a nice, sweet, unencumbered package. > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> naturaldoc1 >> Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:07 +0000 >> RE: Re: Degrees >> >> >> So why not clean it up and repackage it as a FPD, which is what we all >> think it is? Let's be honest with ourselves. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> magisterium_magnum >> Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:18:18 -0700 >> Re: Re: Degrees>> Call it whatever you want. A 6 year >> Master's Degree is baloney. Even if >> >> you look at it as a 4 year Masters Degree. >> >> The FACT of the matter is that it should be a doctorate, and everybody >> knows >> >> it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Everyone knows this is how it should be. So why can't we get it done? - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:56 AM RE: Re: Degrees > > I second the motion. That is exactly what needs to be done. Tighten and > change the current curriculum without exceeding the 4000-4200 total hour > range, and let it be the new OMD/DAOM/or whatever you want to call it FPD. > This would be a nice, sweet, unencumbered package. > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> naturaldoc1 >> Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:51:07 +0000 >> RE: Re: Degrees >> >> >> So why not clean it up and repackage it as a FPD, which is what we all >> think it is? Let's be honest with ourselves. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> magisterium_magnum >> Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:18:18 -0700 >> Re: Re: Degrees>> Call it whatever you want. A 6 year >> Master's Degree is baloney. Even if >> >> you look at it as a 4 year Masters Degree. >> >> The FACT of the matter is that it should be a doctorate, and everybody >> knows >> >> it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 That's total bull. Have you taken postgrad courses elsewhere? TCM school is at least on par with that. Yes, there's an emphasis on memorization, but that's Chinese. That's how the medicine has come down. TCM school is harder than other grad schools, if anything. Don't even try to give me this bull about how it's easy, or about how we're not getting a real quality education. Yeah, there's alot of hippies who study this topic. But they do learn the material. They do study and there are standards in place. Be real. - " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:52 AM Re: Re: Degrees Honestly, I think you are confused about foreign medical education. In Almost all European countries you need to complete the International baccalaurea BEFORE entering any university, meaning, whatever Americans do in their freshmen and sophomore years, Europeans do as part of the baccalaurea, including organic chemistry and calculus. Then they do 2 years of anatomy, kinesiology, and physiology etc and pass an exam about those subjects, then they enter a 4 year medical school which graduates them as MDs. Another problem I have with this discussion is that is places a premium on quantity, meaning how many years of training, and not on quality, meaning, how demanding is it. I earned a doctorate at an ordinary, fully accredited university and thinking that acupuncture school is equivalent to a doctoral level training convinces me that you don't know what doctoral level training is like. It's not memorization, which seems to be what most acupuncture schools place a premium on, and the students I taught at acupuncture schools did not show much inclination to do much else. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - mike Bowser Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, April 23, 2010 11:38 AM RE: Re: Degrees Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 That's total bull. I've taken postgrad courses elsewhere. TCM school compares very favorably. Not only that, but almost all the people I know already had Bachelor's degrees before they came here. - " Joe Messey " <joe.messey <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 12:10 PM Re: Re: Degrees > Mike Bowser said > So why not clean it up and repackage it as a FPD, which is what we all > think > it is? > > Joe sez: > hold on there buddy, I agree with much of what you say but you are > over-generalizing. My colleagues and I think that what we earn is only a > BS > and it's a joke to call it a MS! > Many students have only 2 years of general ed going into school and what > little they think they know about CM and yinyang and 5 elements is just > plain wrong! > > Better schools > Better students > more rigor > 10X more patients > > how many graduates can locate all of the points correctly? few > how many graduates know all of the herbs in all of the formulas? few > most schools are teaching " 4 gates " and xiao yao san > > nah, the education has a long, long way to go before people are " doctors " > of > anything > " clean it up " - totally! But there is much scrubbing ahead of us so get > out > the Brillo pads > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Hi Ken and all: A national identity does not have to be singular, monolithic, or even standardised as the western mind conceives of it. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ " kncherman " <kncherman Chinese Medicine Fri, 23 April, 2010 16:56:56 Re: Degrees I gave up entirely on any hope of a national identity for chinese medicne and I don't see it much better today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 MT, you missed my point. Look outside the box you were taught in philosophy school. I am not talking about critical thinking merely as it is defined in western philosophy. You are missing my point about rigour as well. I may not have been clear enough, certainly, and it also sounds like you are using the boxed terms you were taught in school. I am talking here, only. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum Chinese Medicine Fri, 23 April, 2010 20:07:14 Re: Re: Degrees I have a BS in philosophy, 3/4 of a Masters in philosophy and was an independent researcher at the Institute for Philosophical Studies in Green Bay for 11 years. I am familiar with " critical thinking. " (Which actually appears to be a self help fad lately. But I digress.) I don't think that TCM or TCM theory is any different than critical thinking, as practiced in the West. It's not algorithmic like Western medicine, but I don't think it is unrigorous. Certainly there is more room for subjectivity as well as feeling as well as thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 Mercurius: i respect your opinion and feel your perspective adds to this discussion. however, please (i am asking you) watch the flaming. Angela also was contributing her perspective, which i too appreciated. this group has an easy tendency to get into angry spats. please (i ask you) be careful how you word your reply so that you don't rile someone else's liver. it's not pretty when in happens, and we all pay the price for it. just try to express your opinion in a friendly, respectful manner. that's what i'm asking. appreciatively, kath On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > That's total bull. Have you taken postgrad courses elsewhere? TCM school > is at least on par with that. Yes, there's an emphasis on memorization, but > > that's Chinese. That's how the medicine has come down. TCM school is > harder than other grad schools, if anything. Don't even try to give me > this > bull about how it's easy, or about how we're not getting a real quality > education. > Yeah, there's alot of hippies who study this topic. But they do learn the > material. They do study and there are standards in place. Be real. > > > - > " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa<angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 11:52 AM > Re: Re: Degrees > > Honestly, I think you are confused about foreign medical education. > In Almost all European countries you need to complete the International > baccalaurea BEFORE entering any university, meaning, whatever Americans do > in their freshmen and sophomore years, Europeans do as part of the > baccalaurea, including organic chemistry and calculus. > Then they do 2 years of anatomy, kinesiology, and physiology etc and pass > an > exam about those subjects, then they enter a 4 year medical school which > graduates them as MDs. > > Another problem I have with this discussion is that is places a premium on > quantity, meaning how many years of training, and not on quality, meaning, > how demanding is it. I earned a doctorate at an ordinary, fully accredited > university and thinking that acupuncture school is equivalent to a doctoral > > level training convinces me that you don't know what doctoral level > training > is like. It's not memorization, which seems to be what most acupuncture > schools place a premium on, and the students I taught at acupuncture > schools > did not show much inclination to do much else. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > F > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Abstain from all that is evil. Perform all that is good. Purify your thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Follow Your Bliss! Joseph Campbell Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2010 rosemary: If we want to see a doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start the teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in my town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of handing out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which i feel our academics & schools should meet. part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are a female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. my Opinion folks, kath -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Abstain from all that is evil. Perform all that is good. Purify your thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Follow Your Bliss! Joseph Campbell Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 That sounds fine with me. If people want to only do acupuncture, they can just go for two years and get the Masters degree. A normal Masters degree is two years. If they want to include the herbs, they can do two more years and get the Doctoral. A four year Masters degree is absurd, and what amounts to a six year Masters degree is ridiculous. - <kncherman <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 1:56 PM Re: Degrees >I attended a meeting of the then AAAOM and the National Alliance group in >the mid 1990s. The two main issues discussed at one meeting were the NCCA >creating a board for orienal bodywork, and the idea of a Doctorate Degree. >I walked away from that meeting really amazed at what a profession we have. >A lot of people wanted minimal licensing requirements so NADA or NADA type >practioners could practice in every state. Others wanted only to practice 5 >element acupuncture and felt insulted that they should have to learn herbs >or even 8 principals theory (heaven forbid western medicine). Those that >wanted a full doctorate and full scope of practice were clearly in a >minority. > I gave up entirely on any hope of a national identity for chinese medicne > and I don't see it much better today. > > One thing I did suggest was that those who supported, and those who > opposed a board specialty for oriental bodywork should explore what the > base curiculum for Chinese medicine should be. In other words what level > of Nei Jing, Nan Jing, Shan han lun, wen bing, channel theory, classic > pulse diagnosis, etc should be taught so someone can call themselves a > practioner of Chinese medicine. It was just an idea, but if you only want > to practice one style of acupuncture I guess it doesn't matter. > > Ken > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine > and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 I have a BS in philosophy, 3/4 of a Masters in philosophy and was an independent researcher at the Institute for Philosophical Studies in Green Bay for 11 years. I am familiar with " critical thinking. " (Which actually appears to be a self help fad lately. But I digress.) I don't think that TCM or TCM theory is any different than critical thinking, as practiced in the West. It's not algorithmic like Western medicine, but I don't think it is unrigorous. Certainly there is more room for subjectivity as well as feeling as well as thinking. The bottom line is there will always be schools that are better than other schools. I find my school to be quite rigorous and on par with any post graduate school I have been exposed to. If anything, I feel (and think) that the people at my school are doing MORE than what is required in a normal doctoral program. Like I said, it's 4 years, but being that it's based on trimesters, it's equivelent to 6 years, crammed into 4, because we attend through the summer as well. I'm not complaining, because I made this choice with this knowledge. But let's be real. And memorization is not easy, either. In philosophy we have maybe THREE axioms. From that, we do grand theorizing and come out with an account of the entire universe and the meaning of life. LOL. TCM is just the opposite. There are 10,000 axioms (points, functions and indications, herbs, formulas, etc), and then TCM theory itself is pretty simple, as far as just the analysis and diagnosis and whatnot. - " Hugo Ramiro " <subincor <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 2:10 PM Re: Re: Degrees Hi Angela and all: --Angela- Another problem I have with this discussion is that is places a premium on quantity, meaning how many years of training, and not on quality, meaning, how demanding is it. I earned a doctorate at an ordinary, fully accredited university and thinking that acupuncture school is equivalent to a doctoral level training convinces me that you don't know what doctoral level training is like. It's not memorization, which seems to be what most acupuncture schools place a premium on, and the students I taught at acupuncture schools did not show much inclination to do much else. --- I agree that quality is more important than quantity, but I think your doctoral school may have convinced you that quality equals difficulty, or intensity. That is incorrect. I find it to be a common confusion related to how humans perceive risk (i.e. emotionally). The med students I come into contact with are impressed with themselves and self-congratulatory about the " rigour " of their programs when what they mean is only " difficulty " . Rigour can mean harshness and rigid strictness, but it also implies " correctness " as in a mathematical or logical rigour. Too often the second definition is given up and the physical and mental difficulties are awarded the pedestal. In actuality, quality involves the nature, or characteristic of a phenomena. It can also involve the purity or integrity of a phenomena. One thing I can't get my mind around, and I am sure that my better educated colleagues can " school " me on this, regards what it is, exactly that a western education will get, well, ME, for example. I've been following the conversation quietly, and what I seem to understand is that the characteristics of analysis, rigour and effort are trained for in western education. I'll be honest with you: this conversation shares important characteristics, or Qualities, of the " MMA versus TaiChi " discussions I have heard. " MMA " means " Mixed Martial Arts " , or conveniently in our case, " Modern Martial Arts " . As in the moderns versus the savages. In any case, CM does not need analysis, rigour or effort as trained for in western education. In fact, training for analysis closes the heart. So how are we going to resolve these antithetical concepts? Please raise your hand if you have an answer. How many people can *feel* the qi vacate the rest of the body and concentrate in the head when analysis and " critical thinking " is going on (I would expect that most of you can)? So, obviously, what happens when that is going on most of the time? I'll be more specific - I have seen my friends go through western university and almost without exception (there have been some survivors thank the ****!) they have learned to be more critical thinkers. Of course, the first problem is the excessive thinking, but let's just let that dead horse just LIE there! The critical aspect, however, is deeply troubling to me. These friends of mine have a great capacity to Project (this is a technical term from western psychology which essentially means they can't see past the tip of their own noses) their " critical thinking " , and little to no capacity to engage in true introspection. Brain can't look at itself, people. Try it...you will get a brain sprain. And I don't have a treatment for that other than neglect. It all really is like the poorest form of Wai Dan (break for explanation) - (Wai Dan / External Training will adjust the qi and flesh on the outer levels of the body, and then, if it is advanced enough, direct it internally to the deeper levels of the body. How many of us have met athletes who are powerfully strong, great heart rate and lung capacity - true athletes at peak performance... but with a host of internal organ problems from our p.o.v.? This is low level Wai Dan - means externally strong, internally weak.) People who have this " critical " thinking business are like Wai Dan MMA athletes who are able to fight, powerfully, an external opponent...and have little effective capacity to fight the only opponent that matters - their internal one. (THEMSELVES for those of you who have started drinking as you read my posts) Now, if we can say that a warrior requires an ability to tame the opponent within, how much more true must that be for a doctor. How much, exactly do we, as the types of doctors we purport to be, require training that will make us mental cases? The Matrix movies had a simplistic but largely accurate portrayal of yin and yang in the Architect and the Oracle. I guess at this point I could refer to an " authority " , who as we've found from other sources, wished he had diapers: ch 47 Without going out your door you can know the ways of the world. Without peeping through your window you can see the way of heaven The farther you go the less you know [and so on...] Now I'm waiting for some smart-aleck to quote chapter 56 to me. Just try it buddy, just try it. Get it straight guys and gals: western training is Wai-Dan, is Nei Dan. Experiment: Train tai chi and do a lot of western style cross-training as well, neglect the traditional " strengthening practices " , go back a year or two later and see how much worse you are than the students who only did the traditional Tai Chi, which involves lots of standing around " meditating " . It's a great experiment. I was too smart to do it, so I don't really know. Failure of my critical thinking faculty, really. Make sure, as you carry out your experiment, to really get that heart rate up and sweat a lot, that'll be really good, get that blood pumping. It may be that only Tai Chi practitioners will be following me at this point. Sometimes I don't know where I am...this is the forum, is it not? Thanks for your patience, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most post-grad programs.. TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) and/or 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for research PhDs. TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and there's a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational material in one year).. In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is considered a Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad program for Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize terminology, diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm for the FPD. K K On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, wrote: > > > rosemary: > > > If we want to see a > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a start the > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college in my > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are not > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of handing > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, which i > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we are a > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > my Opinion folks, > > kath > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Abstain from all that is evil. > Perform all that is good. > Purify your thoughts. > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > Follow Your Bliss! > Joseph Campbell > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for : > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > Amazon.com > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > and from the following supply companies: > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Thanks again to David Maloney advising me to mind my own business in Florida in 1998. Fulfilling as the bouncer ever since....maybe too well. Been attacking the MDs on and off since 1998 for doing acupuncture in Florida without ANY required hours of education. Sometimes one needs to attack collaterally. Several years ago I filed Dept of Health complaints against 30 MDs/DOs for using titles after their names as being Board Certified in Acupuncture by the AAMA. That's illegal here since the American Board of Medical Specialties has no such Board Certification and the AMA laughs at acupuncture. Of course all the DOH did unofficially behind the scenes was have the MDs stop using those initials. Still.....it had its effect. You are soooo right Kim. It is hard to believe that some want us to conform to the kind of insanity that it's perfectly ALRIGHT for MDs/DOs etc to use acupuncture without ANY education..... not to forget that when they do they bill and get reimbursed which adds insult to injury. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:43:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kuangguiyu writes: Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Look back to the inception of ALL of those national organizations. Formed and controlled since their inception by one person with his cronies. And they had their own agenda ......IMO to be primarily needle stickers. So whether the apathetic starving majority gave money or not there were zero positive results. In part the attempt to create a new Accrediting agency which apparently failed. In part the creation of our AOMNCC which actually succeeded but not for money. At one point the AOMNCC has as many members if not more than AAAOM. But alas....the majority of practitioners are apathetic. Appears to be the same with all professions. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:57:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: This is so true. I am a due paying member of the our (so called powerful) nation groups and I often don't feel represented at all. They are our bouncers and they are not doing their job. I believe (perhaps incorrectly) that their resources are so limited that they must pick-and-choose their issues. Aside from our wayward organizations, a big problem is lack of support (and funding) of our organizations. Not many of us " belong. " We need to put our money where our mouth is; but our mouth is always where our money and support is not. If we all contributed, then if an organization began to change direction, we could withhold our support. That would necessitate change within the organization. But for some reason we do not support our organizations for whatever reason (there is always an excuse). Perhaps that is what needs to be done, whether we like it or not. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine kuangguiyu Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:43:19 -0700 Re: Re: Degrees JK: " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > Kath, > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate deg ree > and there needs to be: > 1. higher entrance standards > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > practitioners, > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > the future. > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " , DCs > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > Another thing: > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > coming out have doctorates > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > but have a more respected degree than they do. > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering-in " program (counting past > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, or > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > K > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > wrote: > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only earned > a > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > well > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that our > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > degrees. > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > givers > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). as > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, and > > so > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > [boards > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, orthopedics, > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > specialties > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > west > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not to > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > areas > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > those > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > order > > for personal survival). > > > > my Opinions, > > > > kath > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <johnkokko > <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > post-grad programs.. > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the-blank. > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > and/or > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ page > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > there's > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > material > > > in one year).. > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > considered > > a > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > program > > > for > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > terminology, > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 full > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc > > > <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > start > > > the > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they match > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > in > > my > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, i > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > not > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > handing > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > which > > i > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > are > > a > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Board Certified in Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For Chinese Medicine > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > kbartlett > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 Don Agreed that certain states have such differences. The majority do not. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 12:03:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: Richard, This is not at all true. Here in Louisiana I must practice under an MDs license. Therefore I bill using his license and number. Believe me, they do not always get paid for doing acupuncture because they are an MD. Only about 10% of insurance pays for acupuncture whether you are an MD or not. What I do get paid for when using the MDs license is physical medicine. That's one of the reasons I practice integrated, I get paid for physical medicine by insurance all day long. But the patients pay cash for the acupuncture. And they do pay, and they do get magnificent results when the two modalities are combined. Sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:54:13 -0400 Re: TCM - Re: Degrees Thanks again to David Maloney advising me to mind my own business in Florida in 1998. Fulfilling as the bouncer ever since....maybe too well. Been attacking the MDs on and off since 1998 for doing acupuncture in Florida without ANY required hours of education. Sometimes one needs to attack collaterally. Several years ago I filed Dept of Health complaints against 30 MDs/DOs for using titles after their names as being Board Certified in Acupuncture by the AAMA. That's illegal here since the American Board of Medical Specialties has no such Board Certification and the AMA laughs at acupuncture. Of course all the DOH did unofficially behind the scenes was have the MDs stop using those initials. Still.....it had its effect. You are soooo right Kim. It is hard to believe that some want us to conform to the kind of insanity that it's perfectly ALRIGHT for MDs/DOs etc to use acupuncture without ANY education..... not to forget that when they do they bill and get reimbursed which adds insult to injury. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 11:43:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kuangguiyu writes: Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 24, 2010 JK Lobbying does not COST hundreds of thousands of dollars. Actually a heck of a lot less. We were sold that bill of lies here in Florida for twenty years.....until I found out that to register as a lobbyist in the Florida legislature was $25 per year and to lobby the Executive branch cost $50 per year. Also.....a practitioner can lobby for themselves FREE. What it takes is the TIME and EFFORT to see you rlegislators. If you look at the Florida AP scope of practice you would think it cost hundred of thousands in lobby money but in fact it was just a handful of us doing the WORK moving the profession forward. If key people in each state would lobby their Congressperson and Rep it could be done very easily. Richard In a message dated 4/24/2010 12:05:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, johnkokko writes: Donald, I agree. We don't even have lobbyists in the capitols. It takes money to buy lobbyists, so if people really care, they should donate money to their non-profit acupuncture associations and then get involved. K On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Donald Snow <_don83407_ (don83407) > wrote: > > This is so true. I am a due paying member of the our (so called powerful) > nation groups and I often don't feel represented at all. They are our > bouncers and they are not doing their job. I believe (perhaps incorrectly) > that their resources are so limited that they must pick-and-choose their > issues. Aside from our wayward organizations, a big problem is lack of > support (and funding) of our organizations. Not many of us " belong. " We > need to put our money where our mouth is; but our mouth is always where our > money and support is not. If we all contributed, then if an organization > began to change direction, we could withhold our support. That would > necessitate change within the organization. But for some reason we do not > support our organizations for whatever reason (there is always an excuse). > > > > Perhaps that is what needs to be done, whether we like it or not. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) > _kuangguiyu_ (kuangguiyu) > Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:43:19 -0700 > Re: Re: Degrees > > > > > > JK: > > " One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " need > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. " > > Creating another degree isn't going to stop the wholesale co-optation of > acupuncture by pretty much anybody who wants to use it. What's the possible > connection here? Our state and national leadership needs to get busy very > quickly and try to stop this nonsense before it's entirely too late. We > don't need to up the ante at the table - we need(ed) bouncers at the doors. > > Kim Blankenship, L.Ac. > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:00 AM, <_johnkokko_ (johnkokko) > wrote: > > > Kath, > > yes... 4 years of post-grad education ($50 G+) deserves a doctorate > degree > > and there needs to be: > > 1. higher entrance standards > > 2. more classical text and biomedical integration > > 3. more clinical practice (internship / residency) > > > > What we do for the profession today will affect the next generation of > > practitioners, > > so we can't just think about our own hides, but the entire profession for > > the future. > > > > One of the major reasons I'm for the FPD is because other medical > > practitioners are gaining more ground in doing what we do (PTs doing " dry > > needling " , MDs doing 150 hours of training for " medical acupuncture " need > > doing Gua sha " Graston therapy " ). > > Unless we up the ante a little, we'll be taken for all of our chips. > > > > Another thing: > > I'm wondering if some seasoned practitioners are worried that if others > > coming out have doctorates > > that this will basically coerce them to have to go back to school > > to have the same degree as people without any professional experience, > > but have a more respected degree than they do. > > This same issue comes up in the PT world between Doctors of PT > > and those who graduated without a Doctorate degree. > > > > So, what do y'all think about a " grandfathering- So, what do y'all think > past > > CEU credits, years of working experience etc.) or doctorate degree exam, > or > > online CEUs for doctorate courses ? Would this work? > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:18 AM, > > <_acukath_ (acukath) >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > john: agree on all pts. > > > > > > btw: my MSTOM program was 4ys, yr-round intensive and i still only > earned > > a > > > master's. this is an ongoing bone of contention. the MS doesn't reflect > > > the years of schooling and training we have. Patients want to see a > > > doctor. as we are so close in hours at this pt to the dr., we might as > > well > > > go all the way, and get the degree, legitimate title and respect that > our > > > prof deserves. also, i believe the pay scale would raise if we had dr. > > > degrees. > > > > > > if we were to go to the dr., we could then become primary health care > > > givers > > > in the med system (some states: CA, FL already recognize us this way). > as > > > such, i believe (my Opinion) that we should be trained in basic west > > > services, such as ordering and interpreting labs, mri's, ultrasounds, > and > > > so > > > on, to the extent that a GP or internist is. this also would set up a > > > framework for structure, add'l edu/training and (legitimate) boards > > [boards > > > is another can of worms here, new thread would be appropriate for this > > > topic] for such disciplines as infertility, CA support & tx, > orthopedics, > > > internal med and so on for us to have Real specialties (again, > > specialties > > > is a topic for a New Thread). > > > > > > and hugo: you may not like the idea of structure in edu, but this is a > > west > > > country, and as such that's the way our edu system works. this is not > to > > > say the is not room for improvement or change in the sys, but it is the > > > current sys that is in place that we must work within if we are to be a > > > part/service the mainstream establishment. (for the record, i am not a > > > mainstreamer, but i have learned how to accommodate the sys in certain > > > areas > > > when i must. business [which health care is, like it or not] is one of > > > those > > > areas where the mainstream must be accommodated to a certain extent in > > > order > > > for personal survival). > > > > > > my Opinions, > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM, <_johnkokko_ (johnkokko) > > <johnkokko%40gmail.joh>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > TCM schools require more memorization and less analyzation than most > > > > post-grad programs.. > > > > TCM schools require no writing skills (essays), but many quizzing and > > > > testing (multiple choice) and some fill-in-the- testi > > > > > > > > Most post-grad programs require project-creating (business/sciences) > > > and/or > > > > 20-40 page essays per class per semester (humanities) with a 200+ > page > > > > dissertation scrutinized by a committee with an initial proposal for > > > > research PhDs. > > > > > > > > TCM colleges are difficult for many in the 1st year and 2nd years > > > > especially, because it's a new language (pinyin / TCM language) and > > > there's > > > > a lot of memorization (stuffing thousands of years of foundational > > > material > > > > in one year).. > > > > > > > > In China, isn't the BA program curriculum the same as what is > > considered > > > a > > > > Masters program in the US? So, yes... I believe that what is called > > > > post-grad (Masters) program for TCM is really like an under-grad > > program > > > > for > > > > Chinese medicine. In the US, we need 2 full years to memorize > > > terminology, > > > > diagnostic signs, acupuncture points, herbs and formulas... and 2 > full > > > > years to analyze and clinically practice the medicine. That's why I'm > > > > for the FPD. > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:51 PM, > > > > <_acukath_ (acukath) <acukath%40gmail.acu>>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rosemary: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to see a > > > > > doctoral-level education, the school culture has to change; as a > > start > > > > the > > > > > teachers salaries need to be increased to the point where they > match > > > > > salaries of other professionals teaching in universities. > > > > > > > > > > i couldn't agree with you more on this issue. the local acu college > > in > > > my > > > > > town pays (incrediably) $25/hr! painters make more than that. pcom, > i > > > > > understand, pays $45. part of the problem is that our teachers are > > not > > > > > professors. i feel they should be, but it's more thatn a matter of > > > > handing > > > > > out a title, there are requirements that go with the prof title, > > which > > > i > > > > > feel our academics & schools should meet. > > > > > > > > > > part of the pay problem, as i see (you men may disagree) is that we > > are > > > a > > > > > female dominated profession, and women make 75% of what men make. > > > > > > > > > > my Opinion folks, > > > > > > > > > > kath > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA > > > > > Board Certified in Oriental Medicine, NCCAOM > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > Abstain from all that is evil. > > > > > Perform all that is good. > > > > > Purify your thoughts. > > > > > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > > > > > > > > > Follow Your Bliss! > > > > > Joseph Campbell > > > > > > > > > > Kath's Blog about Chinese Medicine, Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > > > > _http://acukath.http://achttp_ (http://acukath.blogspot.com/) > > > > > > > > > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > > > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > > > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > > > > www.FlyingDragonLin www.Flyi > > > > > > > > > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > > > > > > > > > Amazon.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _http://www.amazon.http://www.http://www.amaz--<WBR>Eco-Fri-<WBR>Eco-Fri-<WBR>Ec\ o-Frie-<WBR>Eco-<WBR>Eco & <WBR> & qid=qid=<WBR>1 & <WBR>s_ (http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001O\ C1AZ2/ref=sr _1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1) > > > > > > > > > > and from the following supply companies: > > > > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > > > > > _https://www.https://wwhttps://www.https://www.<Whttps & cat=c & page=1_ (https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1) > > > > > > > > > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _http://www.goldennehttp://www.http://wwwhttp://wwhttp://www & <WBR>cate<W & vendor=\ & product=prod & pg=_ (http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor=\ & product=5554 & pg=) > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For Chinese Medicine > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > _kbartlett@Acupunctukbartlett@Ackba_ (kbartlett) > > <kbartlett%40Acupunkbartlett%40Acukba> > > > <kbartlett%40Acupunkbartlett%40Acukba> > > > > > > > > www.AcupunctureAshe www.Acup > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "" > > > > > > > > www.turtleclinic. ww > > > > www.tcmreview. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
