Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

> In some individuals, acupuncture alone can result in weight loss.

I

> just feel that a personalized combination of techniques works best.

>

>

 

 

 

 

Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then?

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

---

" on·ly "

 

ADJECTIVE:

 

Alone in kind or class; sole: an only child; the only one left.

Standing alone by reason of superiority or excellence.

 

ADVERB:

 

Without anyone or anything else; alone: room for only one passenger.

 

At the very least: If you would only come home. The story was only

too true.

And nothing else or more: I only work here.

Exclusively; solely: facts known only to us.

 

In the last analysis or final outcome: actions that will only make

things worse.

With the final result; nevertheless: received a raise only to be

laid off.

 

As recently as: called me only last month.

In the immediate past: only just saw them.

 

CONJUNCTION:

 

Were it not that; except.

 

With the restriction that; but: You may go, only be careful.

However; and yet: The merchandise is well made, only we can't use

it.

---

 

> > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

> > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> >>

> >> Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs,

> >> exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy.

> >>

[Guest guest]

Ha!

 

Enjoyed your sense of humor. But it has nothing to do with the issue

of Chinese medical terminology, and I don't feel obligated to answer

your obvious distraction from the issues at hand.

 

 

On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then?

>

> Kelvin

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then?

> >

> > Kelvin

 

 

I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting that

our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional

rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when is

medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy?

Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because they

believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

subject matter?

 

Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke

about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts has

a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging misconceptions

that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

 

There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical terminology in

Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in China,

Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese

medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so

that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

available. After all, we are living in an international world and we

are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe and

requires a consensus in many different languages.

 

CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into

English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation

of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

 

You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of

tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for

there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person

is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan

Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3)

translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but

not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When

you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put

in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself?

 

Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun "

of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation

but ignore that inconsistancy.

 

Glad to meet you Eric

 

Kelvin

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> >

> > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean

then?

> > >

> > > Kelvin

>

>

> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting

that

> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional

> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when

is

> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy?

> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because

they

> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

> subject matter?

>

> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke

> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts

has

> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

misconceptions

> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

>

> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

terminology in

> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

China,

> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese

> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so

> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

> available. After all, we are living in an international world and

we

> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe

and

> requires a consensus in many different languages.

>

> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated

into

> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

Federation

> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

>

> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes

of

> tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

>

> Eric

>

[Guest guest]

Thought you would like that Z'ev, but isn't it you who distracted

the thread with the Chinese medical terminology in a weight loss

post? Hmmmmm....?

 

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

> Ha!

>

> Enjoyed your sense of humor. But it has nothing to do with the

issue

> of Chinese medical terminology, and I don't feel obligated to

answer

> your obvious distraction from the issues at hand.

>

>

> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean

then?

> >

> > Kelvin

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

>

>

> Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for

> there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person

> is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan

> Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3)

> translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but

> not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When

> you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put

> in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself?

 

Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that assumptions

that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll be the

first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so there is

no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I

perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated, it

has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around the

world and I've never met.

 

Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for eighteen

years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the Nan

Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75 expounds

on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in the

classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other than

the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further, I

have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24

years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is one of

my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice are

inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be used

in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which are

based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which means to

" administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would just

like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate

terminology, that is all.

>

> Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

> weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun "

> of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation

> but ignore that inconsistancy.

 

The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that

acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in conjunction

with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often

insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful for

patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take

responsibility for working on their own condition in order to get

results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well and

following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve their

health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve their

condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from different

angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly.

 

 

>

> Glad to meet you Eric

>

> Kelvin

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

> <smilinglotus> wrote:

>>

>>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>>>

>>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean

> then?

>>>>

>>>> Kelvin

>>

>>

>> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting

> that

>> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional

>> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when

> is

>> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy?

>> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

>> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because

> they

>> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

>> subject matter?

>>

>> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke

>> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts

> has

>> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

>> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

> misconceptions

>> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

>>

>> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

> terminology in

>> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

>> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

> China,

>> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

>> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese

>> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

>> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so

>> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

>> available. After all, we are living in an international world and

> we

>> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe

> and

>> requires a consensus in many different languages.

>>

>> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

>> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated

> into

>> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

>> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

>> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

> Federation

>> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

>> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

>> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

>> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

>> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

>> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

>>

>> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

>> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

>> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes

> of

>> tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

>>

>> Eric

>>

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://

> toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

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> http://

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

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>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

>

[Guest guest]

Irrelevance is in the eyes of the beholder. I thought it was quite

germane to the discussion at hand.

 

 

On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:21 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

> Thought you would like that Z'ev, but isn't it you who distracted

> the thread with the Chinese medical terminology in a weight loss

> post? Hmmmmm....?

>

>

> Kelvin

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/16/2006 4:19:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

zrosenbe writes:

 

Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

acupuncture does because of terms like this.

 

 

 

I guess I missed something here, are we stuck on the term Xie Fa drainage?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any difference which

word one uses?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

acupuncturebeverlyhills

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 16, 2006 10:18 AM

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

 

 

Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for

there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person

is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan

Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3)

translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but

not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When

you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put

in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself?

 

Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun "

of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation

but ignore that inconsistancy.

 

Glad to meet you Eric

 

Kelvin

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> >

> > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean

then?

> > >

> > > Kelvin

>

>

> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting

that

> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional

> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when

is

> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy?

> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because

they

> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

> subject matter?

>

> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke

> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts

has

> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

misconceptions

> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

>

> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

terminology in

> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

China,

> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese

> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so

> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

> available. After all, we are living in an international world and

we

> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe

and

> requires a consensus in many different languages.

>

> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated

into

> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

Federation

> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

>

> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes

of

> tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

>

> Eric

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

acupuncture does because of terms like this.

 

Z'ev

On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote:

 

> and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any

> difference which word one uses?

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

acupuncture does because of terms like this.

>>>>

Interesting statement, what do you think acupuncture " Does "

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

acupuncture does because of terms like this.

 

Z'ev

On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote:

 

> and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any

> difference which word one uses?

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Whatever it 'does' it doesn't sedate.

 

Sedate: calm or put to sleep by use of a sedative drug.

 

 

On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:26 PM, wrote:

 

> Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

> acupuncture does because of terms like this.

>>>>>

> Interesting statement, what do you think acupuncture " Does "

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM

> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>

>

> Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

> acupuncture does because of terms like this.

>

> Z'ev

> On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote:

>

>> and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any

>> difference which word one uses?

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " .

>>>>English is certainly not my subject but is that the only meaning of the word

sedation?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 16, 2006 11:52 AM

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

 

On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

>

>

> Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for

> there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person

> is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan

> Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3)

> translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but

> not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When

> you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put

> in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself?

 

Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that assumptions

that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll be the

first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so there is

no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I

perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated, it

has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around the

world and I've never met.

 

Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for eighteen

years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the Nan

Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75 expounds

on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in the

classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other than

the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further, I

have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24

years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is one of

my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice are

inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be used

in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which are

based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which means to

" administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would just

like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate

terminology, that is all.

>

> Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

> weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun "

> of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation

> but ignore that inconsistancy.

 

The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that

acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in conjunction

with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often

insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful for

patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take

responsibility for working on their own condition in order to get

results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well and

following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve their

health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve their

condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from different

angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly.

 

>

> Glad to meet you Eric

>

> Kelvin

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

> <smilinglotus> wrote:

>>

>>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>>>

>>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean

> then?

>>>>

>>>> Kelvin

>>

>>

>> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting

> that

>> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional

>> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when

> is

>> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy?

>> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

>> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because

> they

>> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

>> subject matter?

>>

>> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke

>> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts

> has

>> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

>> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

> misconceptions

>> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

>>

>> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

> terminology in

>> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

>> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

> China,

>> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

>> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese

>> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

>> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so

>> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

>> available. After all, we are living in an international world and

> we

>> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe

> and

>> requires a consensus in many different languages.

>>

>> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

>> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated

> into

>> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

>> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

>> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

> Federation

>> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

>> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

>> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

>> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

>> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

>> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

>>

>> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

>> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

>> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes

> of

>> tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

>>

>> Eric

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://

> toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

> http://

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

>

[Guest guest]

How about regulate or encourage of flow?

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

 

> " " <zrosenbe

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:33:48 -0800

>

>Whatever it 'does' it doesn't sedate.

>

>Sedate: calm or put to sleep by use of a sedative drug.

>

>

>On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:26 PM, wrote:

>

> > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

> > acupuncture does because of terms like this.

> >>>>>

> > Interesting statement, what do you think acupuncture " Does "

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM

> > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

> >

> >

> > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what

> > acupuncture does because of terms like this.

> >

> > Z'ev

> > On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote:

> >

> >> and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any

> >> difference which word one uses?

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser "

<naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

>

> How about regulate or encourage of flow?

 

Too vague. Even Deadman's book, which is generally a really nice book

on acupuncture, has a few issues with vague terminology like this.

All the different technical nuances of moving qi are lumped under

" regulating qi. " No English distinction is obvious between the

Chinese terms xing, tiao, and li, which all describe different nuances

of " regulating qi. " Of course, most people don't care, but I think

that simplifying clinical concepts is not particularly useful to the

profession. It is hard to know what concepts we are missing if

someone has already dumbed-down the subject before teaching it to us.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Eric states,

" Westerners who don't

understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of

tens of thousands of educated practitioners? "

 

You have eluded to an important but commonly overlooked issue plaguing our

profession, a lack of educational rigor or standards. The concept of OM/TCM

as an education in the US has become less than ideal, which is why I think

that we have such disparity w/i the profession. The schools that are CA

approved vs. those who are not. Even the programs that are CA recognized

are not necessarily up to Asian standards. Most of our schools try hard but

few offer most of the pre-med type science courses that are taught to

students even in China.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

[Guest guest]

Z'ev you are absolutely right

It’s amazing that in this profession people still want

to use erroneous words to convey important clinical

information, No Doctor in china would use

jing4su4de-Sedate to convey the meaning of xie4-Drain.

Practitioners need to start looking critically at

their sources of information because not all sources

are critical of their content.

And some practitioners may think that it may not be

important as long as both know , but that will mean

that the student or any one else that would like to

look up a term in a dictionary would not find the

association that is made

Because the person using the ill translated term will

know the intent but they will not know the meaning

either.

Gabriel Fuentes

 

--- <zrosenbe wrote:

 

> Whatever it 'does' it doesn't sedate.

>

> Sedate: calm or put to sleep by use of a sedative

> drug.

>

>

> On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:26 PM, wrote:

>

> > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite

> confused about what

> > acupuncture does because of terms like this.

> >>>>>

> > Interesting statement, what do you think

> acupuncture " Does "

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM

> > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture

> Protocol

> >

> >

> > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite

> confused about what

> > acupuncture does because of terms like this.

> >

> > Z'ev

> > On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM,

> wrote:

> >

> >> and if both know what one means by sedation does

> it make any

> >> difference which word one uses?

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> >

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar,

> click, http://

> > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

> http://

> >

>

 

> and adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any

> duplication outside

> > the group requires prior permission from the

> author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print

> this message if

> > absolutely necessary.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

----

>

> > --------

> >

> >

> > a.. Visit your group

> " Chinese Medicine " on the web.

> >

> > b..

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Eric. I appreciate your comments on this.

 

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then?

> >

> > Kelvin

 

 

I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting that

our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional

rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when is

medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy?

Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because they

believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

subject matter?

 

Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke

about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts has

a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging misconceptions

that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

 

There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical terminology in

Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in China,

Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese

medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so

that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

available. After all, we are living in an international world and we

are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe and

requires a consensus in many different languages.

 

CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into

English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation

of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

 

You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of

tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Kelvin,

 

Can we kindly put an end to this weird one-upmanship? It wastes my time and

isn't what I look to this list for.

 

Thank you,

 

acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

 

Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for

there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person

is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan

Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3)

translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but

not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When

you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put

in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself?

 

Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun "

of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation

but ignore that inconsistancy.

 

Glad to meet you Eric

 

Kelvin

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> >

> > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean

then?

> > >

> > > Kelvin

>

>

> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting

that

> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional

> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when

is

> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy?

> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because

they

> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

> subject matter?

>

> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke

> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts

has

> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

misconceptions

> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

>

> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

terminology in

> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

China,

> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese

> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so

> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

> available. After all, we are living in an international world and

we

> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe

and

> requires a consensus in many different languages.

>

> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated

into

> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

Federation

> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

>

> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes

of

> tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

>

> Eric

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

 

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accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

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[Guest guest]

Anyway, the Nang Jing ch75. Wood (east) is replete metal (west) is

vacuous. Normally one uses metal to level wood but in this case it

is vacuous so you drain the son of wood (east) which is fire (south)

and supplement water (north)to obtain metal's leveling.

Now forget about channels and think body segments. If you look on

page 47 of " Five Elements and Ten Stems " by Kiiko Matsumoto and

Steven Birch you will see earth at the center, metal at the west,

liver at the east, fire at the south and water at the north. The

abdomen is one segment of the body and it can also be divided into

other segments. Every part of the body can be so divided. Take the

shoulder for example, if you have shoulder pain at LI15 (the north

of the arm) you needle to the east(left) and west(right). Now if

you want to add a controller to this you'll add earth. Such as

st38, the middle(earth)of the foot yang ming on the lower leg to

control the water (north) of hand yang ming.

 

If you put that in your book, Z'ev, you'll owe me five bucks.

 

Kelvin

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

>

> On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people

for

> > there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a

person

> > is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan

> > Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry,

xie3)

> > translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but

> > not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor?

When

> > you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just

put

> > in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by

itself?

>

> Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that

assumptions

> that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll be

the

> first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so there

is

> no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I

> perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated,

it

> has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around

the

> world and I've never met.

>

> Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for

eighteen

> years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the

Nan

> Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75

expounds

> on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in

the

> classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other

than

> the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further, I

> have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24

> years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is one

of

> my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice are

> inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be

used

> in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which

are

> based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which means

to

> " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would

just

> like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate

> terminology, that is all.

> >

> > Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

> > weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making

fun "

> > of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in

translation

> > but ignore that inconsistancy.

>

> The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that

> acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in

conjunction

> with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often

> insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful

for

> patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take

> responsibility for working on their own condition in order to get

> results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well

and

> following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve their

> health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve

their

> condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from different

> angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly.

>

>

> >

> > Glad to meet you Eric

> >

> > Kelvin

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

> > <smilinglotus> wrote:

> >>

> >>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> >>>

> >>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean

> > then?

> >>>>

> >>>> Kelvin

> >>

> >>

> >> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting

> > that

> >> our profession should have at least a slight amount of

professional

> >> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since

when

> > is

> >> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal

accuracy?

> >> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

> >> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because

> > they

> >> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

> >> subject matter?

> >>

> >> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to

joke

> >> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical

concepts

> > has

> >> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

> >> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

> > misconceptions

> >> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

> >>

> >> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

> > terminology in

> >> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

> >> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

> > China,

> >> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

> >> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in

Chinese

> >> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

> >> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary

so

> >> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

> >> available. After all, we are living in an international world

and

> > we

> >> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the

globe

> > and

> >> requires a consensus in many different languages.

> >>

> >> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese

dictionaries.

> >> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated

> > into

> >> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and

Western

> >> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

> >> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

> > Federation

> >> of Societies (a group that coordinates

worldwide

> >> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's

State

> >> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of

Chinese

> >> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the

reference

> >> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None

of

> >> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

> >>

> >> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

> >> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

> >> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the

jokes

> > of

> >> tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

> >>

> >> Eric

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://

> > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> > http://

> > and

adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside

> > the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> > absolutely necessary.

> >

[Guest guest]

Sorry to waste your time . Maybe if you can post

a list for me as to what it is that you look to this list for, I can

stay on topic for you.

 

Your humble servant,

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth

Damsky <> wrote:

>

> Kelvin,

>

> Can we kindly put an end to this weird one-upmanship? It wastes

my time and isn't what I look to this list for.

>

> Thank you,

>

>

> acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills> wrote:

>

>

> Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people

for

> there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a

person

> is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan

> Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3)

> translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but

> not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor?

When

> you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just

put

> in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by

itself?

>

> Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

> weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun "

> of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in

translation

> but ignore that inconsistancy.

>

> Glad to meet you Eric

>

> Kelvin

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

> <smilinglotus> wrote:

> >

> > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> > >

> > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you

mean

> then?

> > > >

> > > > Kelvin

> >

> >

> > I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting

> that

> > our profession should have at least a slight amount of

professional

> > rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since

when

> is

> > medicine something that should be practiced with minimal

accuracy?

> > Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of

> > medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because

> they

> > believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the

> > subject matter?

> >

> > Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to

joke

> > about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical

concepts

> has

> > a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of

> > Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

> misconceptions

> > that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

> >

> > There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

> terminology in

> > Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people

> > translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

> China,

> > Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international

> > meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in

Chinese

> > medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

> > misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary

so

> > that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

> > available. After all, we are living in an international world

and

> we

> > are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the

globe

> and

> > requires a consensus in many different languages.

> >

> > CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese

dictionaries.

> > The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated

> into

> > English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

> > authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

> > technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

> Federation

> > of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

> > professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's

State

> > Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

> > Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

> > standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of

> > these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

> >

> > You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

> > terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't

> > understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the

jokes

> of

> > tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

> >

> > Eric

> >

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

and

adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely necessary.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

We may be onto something. Most of my patients seem calm (another

meaning of sedate)after a treatment of needles but they don't look

drained. If we talk endorphins, then Z'ev maybey right about

sedation being drugs?

 

Kelvin

 

Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus

DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " .

> >>>>English is certainly not my subject but is that the only

meaning of the word sedation?

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, January 16, 2006 11:52 AM

> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>

>

>

> On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on

people for

> > there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a

person

> > is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take

Nan

> > Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry,

xie3)

> > translated to drain but also the history of that translation,

but

> > not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a

Doctor? When

> > you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you

just put

> > in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by

itself?

>

> Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that

assumptions

> that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll

be the

> first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so

there is

> no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I

> perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated,

it

> has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around

the

> world and I've never met.

>

> Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for

eighteen

> years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the

Nan

> Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75

expounds

> on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in

the

> classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other

than

> the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further,

I

> have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24

> years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is

one of

> my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice

are

> inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be

used

> in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which

are

> based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which

means to

> " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would

just

> like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate

> terminology, that is all.

> >

> > Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for

> > weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making

fun "

> > of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in

translation

> > but ignore that inconsistancy.

>

> The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that

> acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in

conjunction

> with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often

> insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful

for

> patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take

> responsibility for working on their own condition in order to

get

> results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well

and

> following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve

their

> health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve

their

> condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from

different

> angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly.

>

>

> >

> > Glad to meet you Eric

> >

> > Kelvin

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Eric

Brand "

> > <smilinglotus> wrote:

> >>

> >>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> >>>

> >>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you

mean

> > then?

> >>>>

> >>>> Kelvin

> >>

> >>

> >> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for

suggesting

> > that

> >> our profession should have at least a slight amount of

professional

> >> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since

when

> > is

> >> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal

accuracy?

> >> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission

of

> >> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just

because

> > they

> >> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of

the

> >> subject matter?

> >>

> >> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to

joke

> >> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical

concepts

> > has

> >> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission

of

> >> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging

> > misconceptions

> >> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health.

> >>

> >> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical

> > terminology in

> >> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that

people

> >> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in

> > China,

> >> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held

international

> >> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in

Chinese

> >> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize

> >> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is

necessary so

> >> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge

> >> available. After all, we are living in an international

world and

> > we

> >> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the

globe

> > and

> >> requires a consensus in many different languages.

> >>

> >> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese

dictionaries.

> >> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined,

translated

> > into

> >> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and

Western

> >> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of

5500

> >> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World

> > Federation

> >> of Societies (a group that coordinates

worldwide

> >> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's

State

> >> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of

Chinese

> >> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the

reference

> >> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West).

None of

> >> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW.

> >>

> >> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your

> >> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who

don't

> >> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the

jokes

> > of

> >> tens of thousands of educated practitioners?

> >>

> >> Eric

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://

> > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> > http://

> > and

adjust

> > accordingly.

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside

> > the group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message

if

> > absolutely necessary.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Kelvin, Z'ev, Alon, Eric and others.

 

Every few months we have a foray into this topic, which I think is

good because I believe it is important.

 

I think two very good points were made in recent posts.

 

Z'ev recently pointed out that it is difficult for *students* to

understand and learn TCM when the nomenclature is so unclear.

 

And Eric has (below) alluded to the craziness of dumbing down a

subject before you teach it.

 

I think this is critical. If everyone really was already totally

versed in the nuances of distinction between all the concepts of

Chinese medicine we could possibly use any mixture of systems of

nomenclature and still understand each other in discusssion (though

even here there would be misunderstanding in reading the written

word).

 

But for students it is sheer hell - and maybe an impossible task.

 

In many fields of study it is common to dumb a subject down in order

to write a layman's guide - and I think this is good - it can give

the layman a taste of the subject, stir interest and enthusiasm and

encourage further investigation.

 

But to dumb down before you teach to serious students must be sheer

madness.

 

There is only one possible argument I can think of for dumbing down

the subject before teaching it: that is if you don't believe that the

historical conceptual framework of the subject is worth studying at

all. If you have abandoned the theory of Chinese medicine and are

looking for your own explanations of why it works.

 

With respect, might this be your position Alon? It would explain your

view on nomenclature.

 

All the best, David

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser "

> <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

> >

> > How about regulate or encourage of flow?

>

> Too vague. Even Deadman's book, which is generally a really nice

book

> on acupuncture, has a few issues with vague terminology like this.

> All the different technical nuances of moving qi are lumped under

> " regulating qi. " No English distinction is obvious between the

> Chinese terms xing, tiao, and li, which all describe different

nuances

> of " regulating qi. " Of course, most people don't care, but I think

> that simplifying clinical concepts is not particularly useful to the

> profession. It is hard to know what concepts we are missing if

> someone has already dumbed-down the subject before teaching it to

us.

>

> Eric

>

[Guest guest]

Eric Brand wrote:

<snip>

> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries.

> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into

> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western

> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500

> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation

> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide

> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State

> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese

> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference

> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West).

 

Hi Eric!

 

Is this list of 5,500 terms on the web?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , petetheisen

<petetheisen@v...> wrote:

 

> Hi Eric!

>

> Is this list of 5,500 terms on the web?

 

Nope. The World Federation of Societies is

finalizing their term recommendations now. The State Administration

of TCM (of the PRC) has meetings over the next few months to decide

upon their standard terms. The WHO has still not released their

official list. All this stuff is happening right now.

 

The only published term list and dictionary of any size is the

Practical Dictionary of , by Wiseman and Feng

(Paradigm Publications). Xie Zhu-Fan has a term list published, but

it lacks definitions and obscures many Chinese medical terms with

biomedical nomenclature. Chen & Chen's materia medica has a nice

glossary of about 160 common terms, and the new Bensky materia medica

has a good glossary of about 50 terms.

 

Eric