Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

[Guest guest]

Thanks Attilio. I could make a case for a number of different approaches but I

wanted the correct one.

Regards,

P.T. Ferrance

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Chinese Medicine

Friday, January 06, 2006 3:49 PM

RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Hi P.T.

 

Sorry, just noticed this message.

 

Here is the answer to your question:

 

1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even

2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even

3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even

4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even

5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce

6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce

7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Editor in Chief

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of P.T.

Ferrance

06 January 2006 00:51

Chinese Medicine

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Hi Attilio,

Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are we

tonifying or draining?

P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac.

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM

RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Hi P.T.

 

Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there are three

depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want to work on.

But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard. It's only

the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal acupuncture. No

moxa

is used, but TENS can be.

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

Company Director

The Earth Health Clinic

0208 367 8378

enquiries

<http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> www.theearthhealthclinic.com

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of P.T.

Ferrance

05 January 2006 22:14

Chinese Medicine

Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the Sp and St

and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works

wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of

disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger,

ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which have their

equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a lot more

than sticking in needles at times.

 

 

 

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

 

 

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:32:53 -0000

>

>Robert,

>

>Well, it was the protocol used in China where I first observed it and as

>you

>have to pay for everything in China, success is paramount. So yes, I say it

>does work. If you remember a few members used it when I first described it

>last year with great success.

>

>It would be good to test the protocol in a research study as the auricular

>acupuncture that often used doesn't always work.

>

>As for your comments about not using Chinese medicine to loose weight. Do

>you really know how weight gain occurs. Don't you think we need to

>rebalance

>the Spleen and Stomach? Or should be just pat people on the back for most

>disorders?

>

>Warm regards,

>

>Attilio D'Alberto

>Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

>Company Director

>The Earth Health Clinic

>0208 367 8378

>enquiries

> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> www.theearthhealthclinic.com

>

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Robert

>Chu

>06 January 2006 01:12

>Chinese Medicine

>RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>

>

>Hi Attilio,

>

>Nice formula, but does it really work? My opinion is 1 needle (safety

>pin)threaded from Du26 to the other lip and sealed probably does more.

>

>But seriously, has anyone used this protocol successfully and have it work?

>

>What were your results?

>

>Personally, I think if they are willing to take in less food, exercise

>more,

>

>stress less, have emotional support, it's better than this protocol.

>

>

>Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

>chusauli

>

>See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

>

>

>

>

>

> > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

> >Chinese Medicine

> ><Chinese Medicine >

> >RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

> >Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:15:00 -0000

> >

> >Hi Andrea,

> >

> >This is the protocol I observed in use at Zhong Ri hospital in Beijing.

> >Most

> >patients were having it either every day or every two days.

> >

> >Here it is again. I think its still in the files section as well.

> >

> >

> >1. Zhongwan - Ren12

> >2. Xiawan - Ren 10

> >3. Qihai - Ren 6

> >4. Guanyuan - Ren 4

> >5. Daheng - SP15

> >6. Huaroumen - ST24

> >7. Wailing - ST26

> >

> >Points to be used in all weight loss cases, which reflects a 'cookbook'

> >approach rather than the use of a pattern analysis.

> >

> >

> >

> >The needles are inserted, manipulated and left for 25 mins. Those on the

> >larger size are given a 10 mins on the super size TENS machine.

> >

> >

> >Warm regards,

> >

> >Attilio D'Alberto

> >Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

> >Company Director

> >The Earth Health Clinic

> >0208 367 8378

> >enquiries

> > <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> www.theearthhealthclinic.com

> >

> >

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Andrea

> >Beth Damsky

> >05 January 2006 15:58

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

> >

> >

> >Attilio,

> >

> > Would you kindly share this protocol with the list again? I have

> >patients

> >asking me for this sort of treatment regularly.

> >

> > Thank you,

> >

> >

> > <attiliodalberto wrote:

> > Hi all,

> >

> >Some members will remember around a year and a half ago, I posted to

> >the group the 7 acupoint (10 needles) weight loss protocol. A few

> >members used it and reported back with positive results.

> >

> >I'm thinking of writing this weight loss protocol up into an article

> >and would appreciate if any members could share their case studies

> >with me that used this protocol.

> >

> >Please contact me off list at attiliodalberto

> >

> >Kind regards

> >

> >Attilio

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

> >

> >

> > and

>adjust

> >accordingly.

> >

> >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

>group

> >requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> >Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> >necessary.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on

treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and

prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms

that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post

mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach

school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to

separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to

many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental

delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of

Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues

with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than

point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if

we do not deal with these essential factors.

 

 

On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote:

 

> Hi Attilio,

>

> As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the

> Sp and St

> and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works

> wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of

> disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger,

> ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which

> have their

> equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a

> lot more

> than sticking in needles at times.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Protocols are good for research, but real clinical situations require a

much deeper understanding. Obesity and weight issues are both complex

and really very simple at the same time. The simple part is to eat less

(and better), and exercise more. Simple, and everyone knows it. Do

those two things consistently for the rest of your life, and you won't

be overweight.

 

The complex part is the " why " people eat poorly and don't exercise.

Ultimately I believe that comes from " delusions of the mind " as Robert

stated. That is the root, and until that is adequately addressed no

herbal regime or acupuncture protocol will make any permanent change to

a person's weight or most other conditions for that matter.

 

The disease in our culture is the " quick fix " disease and the " I'm not

responsible for my life " disease. I've had dozens of patients come in

for weight loss and I tell them straight up that acupuncture won't help

until they are ready and willing to make changes to their lifestyle.

I'm not saying CM can't be a part of that process, but without their

willingness the treatment is doomed to fail.

 

Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht.

Oasis Acupuncture

<http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com

8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte

Suite D-35

Scottsdale, AZ 85258

Phone: (480) 991-3650

Fax: (480) 247-4472

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Friday, January 06, 2006 4:14 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on

treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and

prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms

that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post

mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach

school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to

separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to

many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental

delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of

Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues

with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than

point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if

we do not deal with these essential factors.

 

 

On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote:

 

> Hi Attilio,

>

> As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the

> Sp and St

> and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works

> wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of

> disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger,

> ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which

> have their

> equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a

> lot more

> than sticking in needles at times.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have been asked to help some patients with weight

loss and was wondering if you could post those points

again for reference. I promise to send my results if I

get good ones. Thank you.

 

--- <attiliodalberto

wrote:

 

> Hi all,

>

> Some members will remember around a year and a half

> ago, I posted to

> the group the 7 acupoint (10 needles) weight loss

> protocol. A few

> members used it and reported back with positive

> results.

>

> I'm thinking of writing this weight loss protocol up

> into an article

> and would appreciate if any members could share

> their case studies

> with me that used this protocol.

>

> Please contact me off list at

> attiliodalberto

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

would be intererested to receive protocol

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I just had

an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in the last

issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi unfortunately died

last month.

 

I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view against a

ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both part and

parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off the shelf

treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we would

all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it doesn't

always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in Chinese

medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, represents

the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace this than

to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it.

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Editor in Chief

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

06 January 2006 23:14

Chinese Medicine

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on

treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and

prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms

that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post

mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach

school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to

separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to

many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental

delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of

Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues

with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than

point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if

we do not deal with these essential factors.

 

 

On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote:

 

> Hi Attilio,

>

> As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the

> Sp and St

> and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works

> wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of

> disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger,

> ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which

> have their

> equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a

> lot more

> than sticking in needles at times.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think we are all on the same page - we know we have to customize to fit our

patients! The cookbook approach doesn't always work!

 

Hoping everyone can have a clear and present mind! Often the movies played in

our mind control us, but we are not the movie. We have to be here and now!

 

Great discussion for 2006!

 

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD

chusauli<chusauli

 

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com<http://www.chusaulei.com/>

-

Attilio D'Alberto<attiliodalberto

To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@>

Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:10 AM

RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I just had

an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in the last

issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi unfortunately died

last month.

 

I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view against a

ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both part and

parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off the shelf

treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we would

all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it doesn't

always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in Chinese

medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, represents

the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace this than

to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it.

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Editor in Chief

Times

07786 198900

enquiries<enquiries (AT) chinesemedicinetimes (DOT) \

com>

<http://wwwchinesemedicinetimes.com/<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

 

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@com>

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

06 January 2006 23:14

To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\

@>

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on

treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and

prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms

that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post

mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach

school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to

separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to

many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental

delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of

Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues

with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than

point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if

we do not deal with these essential factors.

 

On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote:

 

> Hi Attilio,

>

> As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the

> Sp and St

> and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works

> wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of

> disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger,

> ignorance these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which

> have their

> equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a

> lot more

> than sticking in needles at times.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me

several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me

is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw

prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation.

The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of

pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot

understand how to help a patient without understanding where their

illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To

use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a

mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the

nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates

to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had

enough students and former students to know this to be true.

 

 

On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

> Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I

> just had

> an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in

> the last

> issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi

> unfortunately died

> last month.

>

> I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view

> against a

> ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both

> part and

> parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off

> the shelf

> treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we

> would

> all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it

> doesn't

> always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in

> Chinese

> medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches,

> represents

> the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace

> this than

> to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev,

 

I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which really gets

into the varying pattern analysis of combined Zangfu disharmony quotes

extracts from classical texts which provides an insight into their

pathology. I haven't seen another translated article so in-depth discussing

these disorders. I also provided the forum with a cookbook approach to

treating weight loss using acupuncture, which by-and-large, works. Both

these pieces of information and protocol where obtained in China. The

in-depth Spleen and Stomach pattern analysis article was obtained from a

leading expert in Beijing. The acupuncture weight loss protocol was observed

in a top hospital in Beijing, not in the UK or the US. What I am trying to

illustrate to people is the different faces of Chinese medicine. Both exist

side by side in China and that's what your attacking, its not me, the person

who simply observed them, it's the state of Chinese medicine in China

itself. Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic

perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of Chinese

medicine in China. This is a part of Chinese medicine from a specific point

of time and choosing to focus just upon that is to look at Chinese medicine

in a certain time span of development and love a romantic part of it whilst

ignoring the rest. Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that pre dates

the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that incorporates the

combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You can't say

what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always has been

and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use in their

clinics. Having said all that I too am romantically in love with the use of

pattern analysis. It seems like the best form of treatment that Chinese

medicine has produced over the years, but who am I to say that?

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor in Chief

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

08 January 2006 01:56

Chinese Medicine

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Attilio,

I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me

several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me

is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw

prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation.

The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of

pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot

understand how to help a patient without understanding where their

illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To

use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a

mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the

nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates

to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had

enough students and former students to know this to be true.

 

 

On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

> Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I

> just had

> an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in

> the last

> issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi

> unfortunately died

> last month.

>

> I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view

> against a

> ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both

> part and

> parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off

> the shelf

> treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we

> would

> all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it

> doesn't

> always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in

> Chinese

> medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches,

> represents

> the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace

> this than

> to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think I agree with both Attilio and Zev here.

 

Not only is it quite common to use AP cookbook formulae nowadays in

China and the West, but also, if I remember correctly (and please

correct me if I'm wrong), herbal medicine in China has for thousands

of years been dominated by Taoist village practitioners who often

prescribed forumulae based on simple disease categories rather than

CM patterns and CM pathomechanisms. That was surely a

somewhat 'cookbook' approach.

 

And if we look within the pattern differentiation camp, could it not

be said that the modern 8-principle 'bian zheng lun zhi', being a

simplification of the pattern differentiation done prior to the

communist revolution, is in itself a semi-cookbook approach - a sort

of half-way house?

 

So it would appear that cookbook approaches have been part of chinese

medicine for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

 

But, chinese medicine has always had many (thousands of) schools of

thought, each one championed by passionate individuals so I feel it

is somewhat 'artificial' and unreasonable to insist that

practitioners today should follow the whole sprectrum of practice or

to prevent practitioners from championing their own view.

 

Having said all of that, I personally feel that CM patterns and

pathomechanisms are at the heart of chinese medicine (ie closest to

its philosophical centre) and should be our highest goal. I am trying

to deepen my understanding of these things so I can use them more

effectively with patients. But when I have to, I use cookbook.

 

That's where I am.

 

David

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

 

> Zev,

>

> I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which

really gets

 

snip

 

Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that pre dates

> the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that

incorporates the

> combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You

can't say

> what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always

has been

> and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use

in their

> clinics.

 

snip

 

> Warm regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

[Guest guest]

Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic

perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of Chinese

medicine in China.

>>>>>>

And without any evidence of being more effective. Empirical formulas have been

used forever and hopefully because they work. As far as weight loss the only

thing that works is life style change.

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:53 AM

RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Zev,

 

I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which really gets

into the varying pattern analysis of combined Zangfu disharmony quotes

extracts from classical texts which provides an insight into their

pathology. I haven't seen another translated article so in-depth discussing

these disorders. I also provided the forum with a cookbook approach to

treating weight loss using acupuncture, which by-and-large, works. Both

these pieces of information and protocol where obtained in China. The

in-depth Spleen and Stomach pattern analysis article was obtained from a

leading expert in Beijing. The acupuncture weight loss protocol was observed

in a top hospital in Beijing, not in the UK or the US. What I am trying to

illustrate to people is the different faces of Chinese medicine. Both exist

side by side in China and that's what your attacking, its not me, the person

who simply observed them, it's the state of Chinese medicine in China

itself. Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic

perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of Chinese

medicine in China. This is a part of Chinese medicine from a specific point

of time and choosing to focus just upon that is to look at Chinese medicine

in a certain time span of development and love a romantic part of it whilst

ignoring the rest. Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that pre dates

the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that incorporates the

combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You can't say

what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always has been

and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use in their

clinics. Having said all that I too am romantically in love with the use of

pattern analysis. It seems like the best form of treatment that Chinese

medicine has produced over the years, but who am I to say that?

 

Warm regards,

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

Editor in Chief

Times

07786 198900

enquiries

<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

08 January 2006 01:56

Chinese Medicine

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Attilio,

I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me

several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me

is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw

prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation.

The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of

pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot

understand how to help a patient without understanding where their

illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To

use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a

mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the

nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates

to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had

enough students and former students to know this to be true.

 

On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

> Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I

> just had

> an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in

> the last

> issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi

> unfortunately died

> last month.

>

> I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view

> against a

> ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both

> part and

> parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off

> the shelf

> treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we

> would

> all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it

> doesn't

> always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in

> Chinese

> medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches,

> represents

> the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace

> this than

> to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Dr. DAlberto,

 

I hope this message finds you well. Do you know of a good TCM Doctor in

Vienna, Austria who could handle a lumbar disk problem ?

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

 

 

<attiliodalberto a écrit :

Hi all,

 

Some members will remember around a year and a half ago, I posted to

the group the 7 acupoint (10 needles) weight loss protocol. A few

members used it and reported back with positive results.

 

I'm thinking of writing this weight loss protocol up into an article

and would appreciate if any members could share their case studies

with me that used this protocol.

 

Please contact me off list at attiliodalberto

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

 

 

 

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think generalizing about anything to do with China is just that,

generalization, and overlooks the complexities of actual practice.

Just as the realities of what is actually 'evidence-based', or what

'evidence-based' is, or how authoritative it is, is actually quite

complex as well. A discussion of this nature would require, in my

opinion, a forum open to different points of view, historical

perspectives, clinical data, and a review of trends in China, Asia

and the West.

 

 

On Jan 8, 2006, at 9:32 AM, wrote:

 

> Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic

> perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of

> Chinese

> medicine in China.

>>>>>>>

> And without any evidence of being more effective. Empirical

> formulas have been used forever and hopefully because they work. As

> far as weight loss the only thing that works is life style change.

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

You shouldn't feel that I am attacking you in any way. As you

point out, you are just reporting a small piece of what is practiced

in China. More of my concern is that too many practitioners are just

looking for point prescriptions cookbook-style to use. When seeing

such a prescription, it may be a better idea to critically examine

it and then vary it according to individual patients, add distal

points to improve qi flow, etc. We should always try to understand

what the authors of the protocol were trying to accomplish, and why

they chose this combination of points, otherwise, we don't really

have a clue as to what we are doing. The same with herbal

prescriptions. Every prescription is designed with a purpose, and if

we understand the intention of the prescription, we can use it much

more flexibly and tailor it for our needs.

 

 

On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:53 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

> Zev,

>

> I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which

> really gets

> into the varying pattern analysis of combined Zangfu disharmony quotes

> extracts from classical texts which provides an insight into their

> pathology. I haven't seen another translated article so in-depth

> discussing

> these disorders. I also provided the forum with a cookbook approach to

> treating weight loss using acupuncture, which by-and-large, works.

> Both

> these pieces of information and protocol where obtained in China. The

> in-depth Spleen and Stomach pattern analysis article was obtained

> from a

> leading expert in Beijing. The acupuncture weight loss protocol was

> observed

> in a top hospital in Beijing, not in the UK or the US. What I am

> trying to

> illustrate to people is the different faces of Chinese medicine.

> Both exist

> side by side in China and that's what your attacking, its not me,

> the person

> who simply observed them, it's the state of Chinese medicine in China

> itself. Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it

> holistic

> perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of

> Chinese

> medicine in China. This is a part of Chinese medicine from a

> specific point

> of time and choosing to focus just upon that is to look at Chinese

> medicine

> in a certain time span of development and love a romantic part of

> it whilst

> ignoring the rest. Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that

> pre dates

> the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that

> incorporates the

> combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You

> can't say

> what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always

> has been

> and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use

> in their

> clinics. Having said all that I too am romantically in love with

> the use of

> pattern analysis. It seems like the best form of treatment that

> Chinese

> medicine has produced over the years, but who am I to say that?

>

> Warm regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M.

> Editor in Chief

> Times

> 07786 198900

> enquiries

> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> Z'ev

> Rosenberg

> 08 January 2006 01:56

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>

>

> Attilio,

> I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me

> several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me

> is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw

> prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation.

> The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of

> pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot

> understand how to help a patient without understanding where their

> illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To

> use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a

> mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the

> nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates

> to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had

> enough students and former students to know this to be true.

>

>

> On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

>

>> Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I

>> just had

>> an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in

>> the last

>> issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi

>> unfortunately died

>> last month.

>>

>> I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view

>> against a

>> ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both

>> part and

>> parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off

>> the shelf

>> treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we

>> would

>> all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it

>> doesn't

>> always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in

>> Chinese

>> medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches,

>> represents

>> the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace

>> this than

>> to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi group!

I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an email

about it. Anyway hope this gets posted.

 

The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is

a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why

things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may

not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game

effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into

each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence

different then the final sentence?

 

If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this

prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is on

the right track.

 

According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you must

tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With that

you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the Nan

Jing

To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the

controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen what

earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north).

 

 

 

Acubeach

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

>

> Hi P.T.

>

> Sorry, just noticed this message.

>

> Here is the answer to your question:

>

> 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even

> 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even

> 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even

> 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even

> 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce

> 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce

> 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce

>

> Warm regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Editor in Chief

> Times

> 07786 198900

> enquiries@c...

> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

P.T.

> Ferrance

> 06 January 2006 00:51

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>

>

> Hi Attilio,

> Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are

we

> tonifying or draining?

> P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac.

> -

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Chinese Medicine

> Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM

> RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>

>

> Hi P.T.

>

> Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there

are three

> depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want

to work on.

> But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard.

It's only

> the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal

acupuncture. No

> moxa

> is used, but TENS can be.

>

> Warm regards,

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

> Company Director

> The Earth Health Clinic

> 0208 367 8378

> enquiries@t...

> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/>

www.theearthhealthclinic.com

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf

Of P.T.

> Ferrance

> 05 January 2006 22:14

> Chinese Medicine

> Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit

perplexed at your analysis.

 

1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially

without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach is

prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is

usually vacuous.

 

2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many

strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is

insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single

point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the

elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

practitioners to technicians.

 

3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of

xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. No

Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as

wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by

sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as a

translation of xie4, in my opinion.

 

 

On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

> Hi group!

> I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an email

> about it. Anyway hope this gets posted.

>

> The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is

> a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why

> things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may

> not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game

> effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into

> each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence

> different then the final sentence?

>

> If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this

> prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is on

> the right track.

>

> According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you must

> tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With that

> you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the Nan

> Jing

> To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the

> controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen what

> earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north).

>

>

>

> Acubeach

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

>>

>> Hi P.T.

>>

>> Sorry, just noticed this message.

>>

>> Here is the answer to your question:

>>

>> 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even

>> 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even

>> 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even

>> 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even

>> 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce

>> 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce

>> 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce

>>

>> Warm regards,

>>

>> Attilio D'Alberto

>> Editor in Chief

>> Times

>> 07786 198900

>> enquiries@c...

>> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> P.T.

>> Ferrance

>> 06 January 2006 00:51

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>>

>>

>> Hi Attilio,

>> Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are

> we

>> tonifying or draining?

>> P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac.

>> -

>> Attilio D'Alberto

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM

>> RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>>

>>

>> Hi P.T.

>>

>> Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there

> are three

>> depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want

> to work on.

>> But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard.

> It's only

>> the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal

> acupuncture. No

>> moxa

>> is used, but TENS can be.

>>

>> Warm regards,

>>

>> Attilio D'Alberto

>> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

>> Company Director

>> The Earth Health Clinic

>> 0208 367 8378

>> enquiries@t...

>> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/>

> www.theearthhealthclinic.com

>>

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Chinese Medicine On Behalf

> Of P.T.

>> Ferrance

>> 05 January 2006 22:14

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev.

 

Yes, it can be perplexing.

 

1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone

to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the

sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round,

acumulated, etc.

There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in

Chapeter 75.

Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi xu

leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again excess).

Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu?

 

2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the only

way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may have

developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more relevant

way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due to

damp heat.

 

3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev.

 

Thanks for your reply

 

Acubeach

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

> While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit

> perplexed at your analysis.

>

> 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially

> without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach

is

> prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is

> usually vacuous.

>

> 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity,

many

> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it

is

> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a

single

> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces

the

> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

> practitioners to technicians.

>

> 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of

> xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda.

No

> Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as

> wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by

> sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as

a

> translation of xie4, in my opinion.

>

>

> On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> > Hi group!

> > I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an

email

> > about it. Anyway hope this gets posted.

> >

> > The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is

> > a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why

> > things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may

> > not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game

> > effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into

> > each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence

> > different then the final sentence?

> >

> > If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this

> > prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is

on

> > the right track.

> >

> > According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you

must

> > tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With

that

> > you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the

Nan

> > Jing

> > To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the

> > controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen

what

> > earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north).

> >

> >

> >

> > Acubeach

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> > D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> >>

> >> Hi P.T.

> >>

> >> Sorry, just noticed this message.

> >>

> >> Here is the answer to your question:

> >>

> >> 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even

> >> 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even

> >> 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even

> >> 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even

> >> 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce

> >> 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce

> >> 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce

> >>

> >> Warm regards,

> >>

> >> Attilio D'Alberto

> >> Editor in Chief

> >> Times

> >> 07786 198900

> >> enquiries@c...

> >> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >>

> >>

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> Chinese Medicine On Behalf

Of

> > P.T.

> >> Ferrance

> >> 06 January 2006 00:51

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

> >>

> >>

> >> Hi Attilio,

> >> Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or

are

> > we

> >> tonifying or draining?

> >> P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac.

> >> -

> >> Attilio D'Alberto

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM

> >> RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

> >>

> >>

> >> Hi P.T.

> >>

> >> Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually

there

> > are three

> >> depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want

> > to work on.

> >> But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is

standard.

> > It's only

> >> the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal

> > acupuncture. No

> >> moxa

> >> is used, but TENS can be.

> >>

> >> Warm regards,

> >>

> >> Attilio D'Alberto

> >> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> >> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

> >> Company Director

> >> The Earth Health Clinic

> >> 0208 367 8378

> >> enquiries@t...

> >> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/>

> > www.theearthhealthclinic.com

> >>

> >>

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> Chinese Medicine On

Behalf

> > Of P.T.

> >> Ferrance

> >> 05 January 2006 22:14

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many

strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is

insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single

point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the

elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

practitioners to technicians.

>>>>

Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully?

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Friday, January 13, 2006 4:13 PM

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit

perplexed at your analysis.

 

1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially

without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach is

prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is

usually vacuous.

 

2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many

strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is

insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single

point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the

elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

practitioners to technicians.

 

3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of

xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. No

Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as

wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by

sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as a

translation of xie4, in my opinion.

 

On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

> Hi group!

> I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an email

> about it. Anyway hope this gets posted.

>

> The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is

> a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why

> things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may

> not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game

> effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into

> each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence

> different then the final sentence?

>

> If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this

> prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is on

> the right track.

>

> According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you must

> tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With that

> you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the Nan

> Jing

> To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the

> controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen what

> earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north).

>

>

>

> Acubeach

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

>>

>> Hi P.T.

>>

>> Sorry, just noticed this message.

>>

>> Here is the answer to your question:

>>

>> 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even

>> 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even

>> 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even

>> 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even

>> 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce

>> 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce

>> 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce

>>

>> Warm regards,

>>

>> Attilio D'Alberto

>> Editor in Chief

>> Times

>> 07786 198900

>> enquiries@c...

>> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>>

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> P.T.

>> Ferrance

>> 06 January 2006 00:51

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>>

>>

>> Hi Attilio,

>> Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are

> we

>> tonifying or draining?

>> P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac.

>> -

>> Attilio D'Alberto

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM

>> RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>>

>>

>> Hi P.T.

>>

>> Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there

> are three

>> depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want

> to work on.

>> But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard.

> It's only

>> the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal

> acupuncture. No

>> moxa

>> is used, but TENS can be.

>>

>> Warm regards,

>>

>> Attilio D'Alberto

>> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

>> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M.

>> Company Director

>> The Earth Health Clinic

>> 0208 367 8378

>> enquiries@t...

>> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/>

> www.theearthhealthclinic.com

>>

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Chinese Medicine On Behalf

> Of P.T.

>> Ferrance

>> 05 January 2006 22:14

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi to all

Just some thoughts about the gain weight discussion:

- The Spleen Yang comes from the Kidney Yang: so how is it posible to be in

excess? None of the Old Chinese Literature talk about this, at least that I

know.

- The excess of weight means excess of damp...it can affect the stomach or not,

but surelly affect the spleen because it deals with the damp;

- The empty fire can lead to a anxiety with increase ingestion of junk food,

which creats damp; since fire is the mother of earth, the element stomach and

spleen will be affected and not replenish;

Some thoughts about the weight loss:

- it can be Spleen Yang Xu and Stomach Yin Xu- most comomm I beliave...

- it can be Stomach fire - in the begging but after a time it becomes to harm

spleen and damp gets acumulated transforming the pattern into weight gain....

All the best!

Jean Joaquim, DVM, MS,

Acupuncture and Homeopathic Veterinary Service

University of State of Sao Paulo - Brazil

www.fmvz.unesp.br

 

 

-

acupuncturebeverlyhills

Chinese Medicine

Friday, January 13, 2006 11:03 PM

Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol

 

 

Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev.

 

Yes, it can be perplexing.

 

1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone

to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the

sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round,

acumulated, etc.

There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in

Chapeter 75.

Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi xu

leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again excess).

Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu?

 

2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the only

way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may have

developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more relevant

way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due to

damp heat.

 

3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev.

 

Thanks for your reply

 

Acubeach

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

> While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit

> perplexed at your analysis.

>

> 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially

> without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach

is

> prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is

> usually vacuous.

>

> 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity,

many

> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it

is

> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a

single

> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces

the

> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

> practitioners to technicians.

>

> 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of

> xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda.

No

> Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as

> wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by

> sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as

a

> translation of xie4, in my opinion.

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs,

exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy.

 

 

On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:25 PM, wrote:

 

> There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many

> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is

> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single

> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the

> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

> practitioners to technicians.

>>>>>

> Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully?

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:03 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

> Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev.

>

> Yes, it can be perplexing.

>

> 1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone

> to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the

> sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round,

> acumulated, etc.

> There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in

> Chapeter 75.

> Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi xu

> leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again excess).

> Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu?

 

Thank you for your clarification. It is hard to tell what people are

talking about when they don't explain it further. Earth repletion

can be interpreted in different ways, from a zang fu, five phase, or

channel perspective. As far as weight goes, either weight gain or

loss can be the result of spleen qi vacuity. This will depend on

what other factors are at play; constitution, pathomechanisms, diet,

emotions,lifestyle, etc.

>

> 2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the only

> way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may have

> developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more relevant

> way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due to

> damp heat.

 

I never said that you were implying it was the only way to go. I was

simply saying what I said, that 'one size fits all' approaches short

change what Chinese medicine can accomplish.

>

> 3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev.

 

If experience is a teacher, pressing the issue of accurate

translation and terminology is not only uncool on lists like this

(having been personally attacked several times over this issue), but

it is hardly nit-picking. The accurate transmission and

interpretation of Chinese medicine is a critical issue for our

profession. Sorry you took it so personally.

 

 

>

> Thanks for your reply

>

> Acubeach

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

> Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>>

>> While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit

>> perplexed at your analysis.

>>

>> 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially

>> without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach

> is

>> prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is

>> usually vacuous.

>>

>> 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity,

> many

>> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it

> is

>> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a

> single

>> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

>> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces

> the

>> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

>> practitioners to technicians.

>>

>> 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of

>> xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda.

> No

>> Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as

>> wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by

>> sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as

> a

>> translation of xie4, in my opinion.

>>

>>

>> On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>>

>>> Hi group!

>>> I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an

> email

>>> about it. Anyway hope this gets posted.

>>>

>>> The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is

>>> a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why

>>> things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may

>>> not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game

>>> effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into

>>> each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence

>>> different then the final sentence?

>>>

>>> If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this

>>> prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is

> on

>>> the right track.

>>>

>>> According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you

> must

>>> tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With

> that

>>> you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the

> Nan

>>> Jing

>>> To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the

>>> controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen

> what

>>> earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north).

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Acubeach

>>>

[Guest guest]

Since diet, exercise, herbs and behavioral therapy on there own can

each result in weight loss, what weight do you put on acupuncture if

you say it can't stand on its own?

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

> Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs,

> exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy.

>

>

> On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:25 PM, wrote:

>

> > There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many

> > strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion,

it is

> > insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a

single

> > point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

> > enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces

the

> > elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

> > practitioners to technicians.

> >>>>>

> > Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully?

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No prob Z'ev

 

What was your take on Nan Jing ch75 then and can you see how the

protocol Attilio D'Albertois posted, can be explained with it?

 

Kelvin

 

Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>

>

> On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:03 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

>

> > Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev.

> >

> > Yes, it can be perplexing.

> >

> > 1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone

> > to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the

> > sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round,

> > acumulated, etc.

> > There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in

> > Chapeter 75.

> > Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi

xu

> > leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again

excess).

> > Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu?

>

> Thank you for your clarification. It is hard to tell what people

are

> talking about when they don't explain it further. Earth

repletion

> can be interpreted in different ways, from a zang fu, five phase,

or

> channel perspective. As far as weight goes, either weight gain

or

> loss can be the result of spleen qi vacuity. This will depend on

> what other factors are at play; constitution, pathomechanisms,

diet,

> emotions,lifestyle, etc.

> >

> > 2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the

only

> > way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may

have

> > developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more

relevant

> > way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due

to

> > damp heat.

>

> I never said that you were implying it was the only way to go. I

was

> simply saying what I said, that 'one size fits all' approaches

short

> change what Chinese medicine can accomplish.

> >

> > 3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev.

>

> If experience is a teacher, pressing the issue of accurate

> translation and terminology is not only uncool on lists like this

> (having been personally attacked several times over this issue),

but

> it is hardly nit-picking. The accurate transmission and

> interpretation of Chinese medicine is a critical issue for our

> profession. Sorry you took it so personally.

>

>

> >

> > Thanks for your reply

> >

> > Acubeach

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

> > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> >>

> >> While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a

bit

> >> perplexed at your analysis.

> >>

> >> 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity,

especially

> >> without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach

> > is

> >> prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is

> >> usually vacuous.

> >>

> >> 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity,

> > many

> >> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion,

it

> > is

> >> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a

> > single

> >> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

> >> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces

> > the

> >> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

> >> practitioners to technicians.

> >>

> >> 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation

of

> >> xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei

Ikeda.

> > No

> >> Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but

as

> >> wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by

> >> sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as

> > a

> >> translation of xie4, in my opinion.

> >>

> >>

> >> On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

> >>

> >>> Hi group!

> >>> I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an

> > email

> >>> about it. Anyway hope this gets posted.

> >>>

> >>> The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it

is

> >>> a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why

> >>> things are then you will just follow what you see. That also

may

> >>> not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone

game

> >>> effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering

into

> >>> each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence

> >>> different then the final sentence?

> >>>

> >>> If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this

> >>> prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss

is

> > on

> >>> the right track.

> >>>

> >>> According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you

> > must

> >>> tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With

> > that

> >>> you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the

> > Nan

> >>> Jing

> >>> To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the

> >>> controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen

> > what

> >>> earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north).

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Acubeach

> >>>

>

[Guest guest]

In some individuals, acupuncture alone can result in weight loss. I

just feel that a personalized combination of techniques works best.

 

 

On Jan 14, 2006, at 10:45 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote:

 

> Since diet, exercise, herbs and behavioral therapy on there own can

> each result in weight loss, what weight do you put on acupuncture if

> you say it can't stand on its own?

>

> Kelvin

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

> Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>>

>> Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs,

>> exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy.

>>

>>

>> On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:25 PM, wrote:

>>

>>> There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many

>>> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion,

> it is

>>> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a

> single

>>> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that

>>> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces

> the

>>> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its

>>> practitioners to technicians.

>>>>>>>

>>> Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully?

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>