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RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

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David

 

That would be nice if ACAOM created the FPD for ONLY those states desiring

it.

But you know that won't be the case nor can it be.

 

Keeping practitioners down?

Mighty strange statement considering that in the majority of states the

licensees are technicians?

Another example of the cart before the horse!

 

And WHY now after 40 years of holding down the profession?

 

As to me.....personally I am neutral.

 

It has to make sense from the real world and it doesn't.

Just because people like to dream....that's very nice but why should

unrealistic dreams wreak havoc on other practitioners and patients alike in

terms of exorbitant added costs?

I don;t believe that you have over 50% of licensees out there wanting an

FPD.

 

And the special interest cottage industry (night-trade-schools) don't need

to get richer at practitioner/patients expense.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/30/2009 8:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

If you don' t like a FPD, keep it so it isn't a requirement in your state

and there will be schools that meet your needs teaching only acupuncture

programs. Don' t work so hard to keep other people down when they want to

better their capabilities from the start, unless you are afraid of choice?

David Molony

 

 

 

 

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Or take a 100 hr Chiro course in acupuncture and off you go.

 

OR as an MD/DO......they have no need for any education.....especially

since they are super beings and can supervise a Medical Assistant doing

acupuncture and for sure BILL for it.

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/30/2009 8:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

Of course you don't need to have a comprehensive education! Take an

acupuncture only education and read a book to prescribe herbs!

 

 

 

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Its funny how the folks who feel that there are too many acupuncturists already

(those who are not doing well), somehow feel that having more education

necessary in 10-20 years will hurt them or the profession. Mostly these folks

are acupuncture only and dont' understand or don't want to understand the field

of medicine they are part of more comprehensively. 

Bob Flaws? He does sell education and books for those who don' t feel they are

fully trained, yes? Patent formulas to those without an OM herb certification?

Of course you don't  need to have a comprehensive education! Take an acupuncture

only education and read a book to prescribe herbs! 

If you don' t like a FPD, keep it so it isn't a requirement in your state and

there will be schools that meet your needs teaching only acupuncture programs.

Don' t work so hard to keep other people down when they want to better their

capabilities from the start, unless you are afraid of choice? 

David Molony

 

On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52:34 PM, " Emily Konstan " <emilylists wrote:

 

 

Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture)

are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

 

To: Chinese Medicine

 david

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it 

 

a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones 

 

primarily opposed to the FPD?

 

Respectfully,

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

 

Health without Drugs or Surgery

 

105 Tivoli Gardens

 

Peachtree City, GA 30269

 

770.780.9608

 

 

 

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On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

David M.......Hysteria? Retirement? All that can be asked is...are you 

speaking personally about retiring?

 

Someday. 

 

 

The profession which is growing......are all the UNCATEGORIZED substitutes 

who can under other names and probably other billing codes administer 

acupuncture (dry needling, chiro puncture, medi puncture, etc).

 

At best the FPD will be no different than the DAOM.....exist in states 

where the practitioners can be put under the ether.

 

A

t best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture....This is

essentially your statement.

 

A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different. The ACAOM is very

specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education, but education from the

start with a view towards an OM doctor.

VERY different.

David Molony

 

Richard

 

 

 

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Hi Benjamin

 

The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED

costs.

This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't

cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.]

 

And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have seen

even the $50 G's for the Masters.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

bdierauf writes:

 

Hi Richard,

 

What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

 

The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many

schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools

will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is

incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any

students.

 

Benjamin

 

 

 

 

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A little late to worry about weakening the profession.

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 8:30:52 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

 

 

This is getting more bizarre by the moment. So, what are your plans then?

Should we continue to weaken our profession and give it away or should we

start to fight back?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

_acudoc11_ (acudoc11)

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:31:32 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

Or take a 100 hr Chiro course in acupuncture and off you go.

 

OR as an MD/DO......they have no need for any education...OR as an MD/D

 

since they are super beings and can supervise a Medical Assistant doing

 

acupuncture and for sure BILL for it.

 

 

________

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id & <WBR>media=<WBR>media=ae & <WBR>lis & <WBR>s & ocid=ocid=<WBRocid=<WBR>Pocid=<W

BRocid=<WBR>Pocid=<WBRocid=_

(http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid=1 & m\

edia=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & oci

d=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009)

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I just gave you the factual data back in 1994 on the masters.

The rest will just have to wait and see.

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 9:29:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

Richard,

IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well

as I get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I

want to be able to discuss costs with them.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Benjamin

 

 

 

The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED

 

 

costs.

 

This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't

 

cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.]

 

 

 

And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have

seen

 

even the $50 G's for the Masters.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

bdierauf writes:

 

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

 

 

 

The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with

many

 

schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools

 

will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is

 

incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't

have any

 

students.

 

 

 

Benjamin

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.

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1 & media=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en

-US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

---

 

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Hi Richard,

 

What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

 

The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many

schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will

increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous.

Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students.

 

Benjamin

 

 

Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote:

 

> Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment

> costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect

> that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the

> FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a

> treatment and that's what is wrong with this.

>

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I and student colleagues ARE the source.

No place to look that up.

You'll just have to take our word for it.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 12/01/09 12:43:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

Richard,

You gave some info but not any source that I can confirm. Is there a link

that I can use?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

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Benjamin,

question is will the FPD students be able to take the state/national

licensing exam somewhere in the middle of their education? ie. in CA at

3000 hours?

or will there be a new re-working of the hours for licensure?

 

Much like being a doctor, but still in residency?...

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:50 AM, bdierauf <bdierauf wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi Richard,

>

> What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

>

> The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many

> schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will

> increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is

> incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have

> any students.

>

> Benjamin

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> acudoc11 wrote:

>

> > Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment

> > costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I

> suspect

> > that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for

> the

> > FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a

> > treatment and that's what is wrong with this.

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

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Benj,

Nice to have some numbers, for a change, as there is a lot of misplaced hype.

We should be asking ourselves if the slight increase is worth our time and

energy. I would say, at this point that it is very doable and cost-effective.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

bdierauf

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:50:54 +0000

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

 

 

 

The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many

schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will

increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous.

Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students.

 

 

 

Benjamin

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote:

 

 

 

> Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment

 

> costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect

 

> that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the

 

> FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a

 

> treatment and that's what is wrong with this.

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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ID23879::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-ww:WM_IMHM_7:092009

 

 

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This is getting more bizarre by the moment. So, what are your plans then?

Should we continue to weaken our profession and give it away or should we start

to fight back?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:31:32 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or take a 100 hr Chiro course in acupuncture and off you go.

 

 

 

OR as an MD/DO......they have no need for any education.....especially

 

since they are super beings and can supervise a Medical Assistant doing

 

acupuncture and for sure BILL for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid=1 & me\

dia=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_\

WIN_7secdemo:122009

 

 

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R,

As you brought up the issue of practitioner education and judgement. What

education should ACAOM have in order to improve things in our profession? Do

you have a doctorate degree in OM? There are a lot of baseless claims being

made but I would not say that we are currently in the know about what is going

on at ACAOM, so why all this hype? What is the fear really all about (going

back to school or ?)? Why the downer about education when it is one of the few

ways that people can make a better life for themselves?

Opinions are fine but maybe we should consider some facts like in Benjamin's

article. If you disagree with them, fine, but adding in more hype is not equal

to replacing of said facts.

Continuing to talk about the horse is a waste of time, when we should catch it.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:29:43 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

David

 

 

 

You know I didn't say that....that's just your spin.

 

 

 

As to a comprehensive education....ACAOM is not experienced as well

 

trained AOM practitioners to decide if or what such a comprehensive education

 

might be.

 

Their methods and people lack the depths of AOM.

 

 

 

The cart (w/o the horse) is running....desperately trying to catch up to

 

the horse (which was let out of the barn many years ago).

 

 

 

From a perspective of recognition the DAOM is a joke.

 

 

 

Appears that there are enough practitioners who did or are doing the DAOM

 

and they thought they were going to be the ONE & ONLY to use the doctor

 

title. Guess they are taking the DAOM for the wrong reasons. Maybe they are the

 

exception...but so far they have come out of the hole very ANGRY.

 

 

 

What kind of creation is a NON-PhD so-called-doctoral research degree?

 

Why not a PhD? Especially when the Masters is ALREADY the credit equivalent

 

of a PhD.

 

Its an oxymoron to call something doctoral and also be NON-PhD.

 

 

 

And the FPD...appears to be a scheme of the same order.

 

A first professional doctorate which will continue to be laughed.

 

 

 

Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment

 

costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect

 

that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the

 

FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a

 

treatment and that's what is wrong with this.

 

 

 

Anyway.....practitioners already appear to be dropping like flies not able

 

to make enough themselves to cover the already exorbitant costs of the

 

present Masters not to mention the DAOM.

 

 

 

This is a scheme of ALL education in the US today.

 

Bankrupt everyone.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/30/2009 9:03:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

acuman1 writes:

 

 

 

On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, _acudoc11_

 

(acudoc11) wrote:

 

 

 

At best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture.At best the

 

AP is no different than th

 

 

 

A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different.

 

 

 

The ACAOM is very specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education,

 

but education from the start with a view towards an OM doctor.

 

VERY different.

 

David Molony

 

 

 

 

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When I hear similar discussion it makes me wonder about our own unique

educational experiences and how this has colored our judgement. As this is

highly variable it can be our own source of statements reflecting upon our

education. Today, these might actually be false. I would think that those

practitioners that spend time teaching or working in our programs would have a

better op to comment upon them.

Part of being a doctor in any healthcare profession is being able to have a

broad education balanced with some depth of learning. We should not be unique

in this.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acuman1

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:02:41 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

 

 

David M.......Hysteria? Retirement? All that can be asked is...are you

 

speaking personally about retiring?

 

 

 

Someday.

 

 

 

The profession which is growing......are all the UNCATEGORIZED substitutes

 

who can under other names and probably other billing codes administer

 

acupuncture (dry needling, chiro puncture, medi puncture, etc).

 

 

 

At best the FPD will be no different than the DAOM.....exist in states

 

where the practitioners can be put under the ether.

 

 

 

A

 

t best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture....This is

essentially your statement.

 

 

 

A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different. The ACAOM is very

specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education, but education from the

start with a view towards an OM doctor.

 

VERY different.

 

David Molony

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

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It will be interesting to see how CA-approved programs, outside of CA, will deal

with FPD education in their own states and with other programs. Will they

reduce educational levels to compete with other local programs or will they

remain consistent with future CA standards? I believe that CA will be moving on

this FPD prior to most other states as the large Asian population is mostly for

having it.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acuman1

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:15:32 -0500

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its funny how the folks who feel that there are too many acupuncturists

already (those who are not doing well), somehow feel that having more education

necessary in 10-20 years will hurt them or the profession. Mostly these folks

are acupuncture only and dont' understand or don't want to understand the field

of medicine they are part of more comprehensively.

 

Bob Flaws? He does sell education and books for those who don' t feel they are

fully trained, yes? Patent formulas to those without an OM herb certification?

Of course you don't need to have a comprehensive education! Take an acupuncture

only education and read a book to prescribe herbs!

 

If you don' t like a FPD, keep it so it isn't a requirement in your state and

there will be schools that meet your needs teaching only acupuncture programs.

Don' t work so hard to keep other people down when they want to better their

capabilities from the start, unless you are afraid of choice?

 

David Molony

 

 

 

On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52:34 PM, " Emily Konstan " <emilylists wrote:

 

 

 

Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture)

are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

david

 

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

 

 

 

a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

 

 

 

primarily opposed to the FPD?

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Health without Drugs or Surgery

 

 

 

105 Tivoli Gardens

 

 

 

Peachtree City, GA 30269

 

 

 

770.780.9608

 

 

 

 

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Richard,

IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well as I

get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I want to be

able to discuss costs with them.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Benjamin

 

 

 

The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED

 

costs.

 

This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't

 

cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.]

 

 

 

And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have seen

 

even the $50 G's for the Masters.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

bdierauf writes:

 

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

 

 

 

The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many

 

schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools

 

will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is

 

incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any

 

students.

 

 

 

Benjamin

 

 

 

 

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Richard,

You gave some info but not any source that I can confirm. Is there a link that

I can use?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:30:27 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just gave you the factual data back in 1994 on the masters.

 

The rest will just have to wait and see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 9:29:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well

 

as I get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I

 

want to be able to discuss costs with them.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

acudoc11

 

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

Hi Benjamin

 

 

 

The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED

 

 

 

 

 

costs.

 

 

 

This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't

 

 

 

cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.]

 

 

 

And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have

 

seen

 

 

 

even the $50 G's for the Masters.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

 

 

bdierauf writes:

 

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

 

 

 

The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with

 

many

 

 

 

schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools

 

 

 

will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is

 

 

 

incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't

 

have any

 

 

 

students.

 

 

 

Benjamin

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

________

 

Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.

 

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1 & media=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en

 

-US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

 

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

 

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Richard,

You gave some info but not any source that I can confirm. Is there a link that

I can use?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:30:27 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just gave you the factual data back in 1994 on the masters.

 

The rest will just have to wait and see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 9:29:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well

 

as I get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I

 

want to be able to discuss costs with them.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

acudoc11

 

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

Hi Benjamin

 

 

 

The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED

 

 

 

 

 

costs.

 

 

 

This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't

 

 

 

cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.]

 

 

 

And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have

 

seen

 

 

 

even the $50 G's for the Masters.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

 

 

bdierauf writes:

 

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

 

 

What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K?

 

 

 

The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with

 

many

 

 

 

schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools

 

 

 

will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is

 

 

 

incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't

 

have any

 

 

 

students.

 

 

 

Benjamin

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

________

 

Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.

 

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid=

 

1 & media=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en

 

-US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

 

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

 

and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

 

To change your email delivery settings, click,

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

 

requires prior permission from the author.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

 

necessary.

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Emily,

 

Thanks for the information. It just seems that if there is widespread,

non-CAN opposition, they are pretty silent about the issue. I really

appreciate the CAN position and I have learned a lot about the issue

from the CAN folk's posts. I also admire CAN's mission of providing

low cost acupuncture to otherwise under-served populations. This seems

like the present level of education or even a lower level would serve

CAN's objectives. I can say for myself that I wish that my education

had been more comprehensive and the entry standards higher, so that we

could have covered more ground and gone into more depth and I feel

that the FPD will help do this.

 

I read the blog you linked but it did not seem that Mr. Flaws was per

se objecting to the FPD, but was objecting to this being the only

route for acupuncture training. My understanding is that colleges

would be able to keep their acupuncture only degree programs. Quoting

Mr. Flaws:

 

" first professional doctorate " (FPD) degree IF SUCH a degree was the

only degree offered by our accredited schools and colleges. " (caps mine)

 

It is also my understanding is that Bob Flaws is also a registered CAN

member, so I would expect him to be in opposition at any rate. I don't

see anything the precludes the CAN folks from keeping their program

and I don't understand how adding a FPD is a slippery slope to

destroying the entire profession as has been suggested.

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

Health without Drugs or Surgery

105 Tivoli Gardens

Peachtree City, GA 30269

770.780.9608

info

www.davidtoone.com

 

On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Emily Konstan wrote:

 

>

> Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community

> acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

>

> Chinese Medicine

> david

> Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

>

> a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

>

> primarily opposed to the FPD?

>

> Respectfully,

>

> David Toone, L.Ac.

>

> Health without Drugs or Surgery

>

> 105 Tivoli Gardens

>

> Peachtree City, GA 30269

>

> 770.780.9608

>

> info

>

> www.davidtoone.com

>

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

>

> > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

>

> > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

>

> > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

>

> > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

>

> > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

>

> > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

>

> > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

>

> > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

>

> > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

>

> > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

>

> > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

>

> > and embraces its availability.

>

> > Dvid Molony

>

> >

>

> > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

>

> > < wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

>

> > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

>

> > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

>

> > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

>

> > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

>

> > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

>

> > students to know

>

> > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

>

> > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

>

> > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

>

> > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

>

> > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

>

> > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

>

> > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

>

> > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

>

> > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

>

> > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

>

> > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

>

> > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

>

> >

>

> >

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When the facts of this issue are not well understood, there can be great

opportunity for misinterpretation and misdirection. I have also read many posts

by Mr. Flaws on another site and consider that he is pretty neutral on this

issue.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

david

Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:16:43 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Emily,

 

 

 

Thanks for the information. It just seems that if there is widespread,

 

non-CAN opposition, they are pretty silent about the issue. I really

 

appreciate the CAN position and I have learned a lot about the issue

 

from the CAN folk's posts. I also admire CAN's mission of providing

 

low cost acupuncture to otherwise under-served populations. This seems

 

like the present level of education or even a lower level would serve

 

CAN's objectives. I can say for myself that I wish that my education

 

had been more comprehensive and the entry standards higher, so that we

 

could have covered more ground and gone into more depth and I feel

 

that the FPD will help do this.

 

 

 

I read the blog you linked but it did not seem that Mr. Flaws was per

 

se objecting to the FPD, but was objecting to this being the only

 

route for acupuncture training. My understanding is that colleges

 

would be able to keep their acupuncture only degree programs. Quoting

 

Mr. Flaws:

 

 

 

" first professional doctorate " (FPD) degree IF SUCH a degree was the

 

only degree offered by our accredited schools and colleges. " (caps mine)

 

 

 

It is also my understanding is that Bob Flaws is also a registered CAN

 

member, so I would expect him to be in opposition at any rate. I don't

 

see anything the precludes the CAN folks from keeping their program

 

and I don't understand how adding a FPD is a slippery slope to

 

destroying the entire profession as has been suggested.

 

 

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

 

Health without Drugs or Surgery

 

105 Tivoli Gardens

 

Peachtree City, GA 30269

 

770.780.9608

 

info

 

www.davidtoone.com

 

 

 

On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Emily Konstan wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

> Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community

 

> acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

 

>

 

> Chinese Medicine

 

> david

 

> Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

 

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

>

 

> I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

 

>

 

> a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

 

>

 

> primarily opposed to the FPD?

 

>

 

> Respectfully,

 

>

 

> David Toone, L.Ac.

 

>

 

> Health without Drugs or Surgery

 

>

 

> 105 Tivoli Gardens

 

>

 

> Peachtree City, GA 30269

 

>

 

> 770.780.9608

 

>

 

> info

 

>

 

> www.davidtoone.com

 

>

 

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

 

>

 

> > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

 

>

 

> > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

 

>

 

> > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

 

>

 

> > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

 

>

 

> > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

 

>

 

> > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

 

>

 

> > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

 

>

 

> > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

 

>

 

> > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

 

>

 

> > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

 

>

 

> > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

 

>

 

> > and embraces its availability.

 

>

 

> > Dvid Molony

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

 

>

 

> > < wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

 

>

 

> > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

 

>

 

> > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

 

>

 

> > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

 

>

 

> > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

 

>

 

> > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

 

>

 

> > students to know

 

>

 

> > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

 

>

 

> > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

 

>

 

> > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

 

>

 

> > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

 

>

 

> > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

 

>

 

> > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

 

>

 

> > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

 

>

 

> > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

 

>

 

> > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

 

>

 

> > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

 

>

 

> > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

 

>

 

> > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

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Similar to other highly regarded medical fields; established Traditional

(TCM) practitioners are now pushing for a First

Professional Doctorate in Acupuncture. TCM was an illegal practice until

1976, when former California governor, Jerry Brown, signed new legislation.

Though legal throughout the United States, the highest recognized level of

education for TCM physicians is a master's degree.

 

 

 

TCM is a system of corresponding paradigms that developed over thousands of

years. New medical paradigms have been developed in the last 50 years. Not

all systems fit together, but ubiquitous and trusted systems adapt enough to

fit in the big medical puzzle that is considered modern. This modern system

is not whole. The time is now to complete the system by adapting traditional

theories to fit the accepted structure. This adaptation started 20 years

ago, but has been stifled by legitimate concerns.

 

 

 

Concerns on both sides are now limited and manageable. The business of

caring has cost too much and we have entered a window of opportunity as

health care is being reformed. If we close that window, future TCM

practitioners will struggle and less will join our ranks. The reason that

many graduates struggle, is that most have to become entrepreneurs to

practice outside the accepted system. Many of these TCM practitioners have

to charge high prices to maintain a basic practice. This is not ideal for

practitioners or patients.

 

 

 

One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for

scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests

or sophisticated imaging. In an effort to elevate the profession,

Traditional TCM proponents are using epistemological

paradigms as a method to draw parallels with biomedicine; comparing the

basic scientific components from which both practices were cultivated.

 

 

 

Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies, reflection in

action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes to solve

problems in practice. Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM

associations' current quest for professionalization uses the technical

rationality of examining the approach and methods incorporated by

established professions. By following this method, TCM can mainstream modern

medicine and we practitioners will be hired by hospitals and the federal

government by the hundreds and our profession will lead as it did thousands

of years ago.

 

 

 

Jennifer M. Williams, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for

scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests

or sophisticated imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive

epistemologies, reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive,

creative processes to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992).

Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest

for professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the

approach and methods incorporated by established professions.

 

 

 

One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for

scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests

or sophisticated imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive

epistemologies, reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive,

creative processes to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992).

Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest

for professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the

approach and methods incorporated by established professions. One of the

major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for scientific proof.

Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests or sophisticated

imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies,

reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes

to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992). Though this is how

the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest for

professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the approach

and methods incorporated by established professions. One of the major

challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for scientific proof. Most

biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests or sophisticated

imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies,

reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes

to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992). Though this is how

the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest for

professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the approach

and methods incorporated by established professions.

 

 

 

acupuncture [acupuncture ] On

Behalf Of Shantileigh

Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:52 PM

acupuncture

acupuncture First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

Has the First Professional Doctorate caught your attention yet? (This is

different from the DAOM that many schools have already implemented.)

 

The proposed FPD would eventually replace the existing First-Professional

Masters as the entry-level degree for the acupuncture profession.

Transitional programs would be needed for already graduated or practicing

acupuncturists to upgrade their degree status. And new standards for the

practice of acupuncture could lead to changes in existing practice laws. All

of which translate into several different problems:

 

.. High costs are already a barrier to entering AOM school for certain

populations, including ethnic and racial minorities, and the poor. Diversity

of practitioners impacts the diversity of populations served. Any increases

in cost to students and practitioners are ultimately passed on to the

public.

.. Striving for status and legitimacy in the current medical system does not

directly serve patients or communities. A new degree title does not create

respect or recognition, jobs, or increase wages.

.. An estimated 70% of acupuncturists are no longer practicing as their main

source of income after 5 years. A new, more expensive degree does not

address the causes for practice failure, and in fact creates more financial

stress for new practitioners in the form of debt.

.. The current master's level of education already produces safe and

effective practitioners; there is no demonstrated need for a new degree.

.. Programs for currently licensed practitioners to " upgrade " to an

entry-level doctorate are unaccredited, and create unnecessary expenditure

of time and money for existing practitioners.

.. Creating jobs for acupuncturists will be more difficult if graduates have

greater debt, and fewer graduates may result from an increase in costs to

obtain a degree.

 

Here is a great piece on what a chiropractor thinks of the proposed FPD for

acupuncturists:

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/chiropractors-perspective-fp

d

 

It's very important to express your opposition right now. The ACAOM is

trying to determine whether there is consensus within our profession for

proceeding with a FPD. The deadline for any written/fax submissions to ACAOM

is January 15th. Comments must be submitted via fax at 301-313-0912 or

regular mail (ACAOM, 7501 Greenway Center Drive, Maryland Trade Center 3,

Suite 760, Greenbelt, MD 20770). We recommend registered mail if you're

snail mailing. It is highly recommended that you keep a copy of your letter

if you are snail mailing.

 

Here's a sample letter to get you started:

 

ACAOM

Maryland Trade Center #3

7501 Greenway Center Drive, Suite 760

Greenbelt, MD 20770

 

RE: Practitioner of OM OPPOSED to a First-Professional Doctorate

 

DATE, 2009

 

To the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine,

 

As a practitioner of Oriental medicine, I am considered to be a key

stakeholder in the successful practice of acupuncture and Oriental medicine

in this country. I am opposed to the development of standards for and

subsequent piloting of a first professional doctorate in acupuncture and in

Oriental medicine at this time. While I am open to the idea of a doctorate

for acupuncture and for Oriental medicine, I do not believe that what is

currently being considered is amenable to all interested parties and that

further conversation is needed. I do believe that with an open dialogue, an

outcome can be reached that benefits not only those that have differing

opinions on the doctorate issue, but the patients they serve as well.

 

Sincerely,

 

NAME

NAME OF CLINIC

SIGNATURE

 

 

 

 

 

 

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