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RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

By Guest guest, in Ayurveda, Health and Wellbeing

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Richard,

This is was not about FLorida (or your legal challenges there) but about usage

of protected titles and that a person cannot simply make up their education and

license as this could be a violation of the public's safety.

I used the example of CA as they have a ruling on this. I also provided the code

for reference. The fact that there are practitioners that have lost their

acupuncture license by using doctor in CA appears to be missing from this

conversation when this was one of my major points.

I asked that people contact their licensing board to enquire, which it appears

you are not in agreement with. When do you think you should listen to your

licensing board?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:50:36 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

This is like beating a dead horse.

 

 

 

Look up Strang v Satz yourself.

 

Also look up definition of COMMON LAW.

 

Lastly look up Florida Admin Code Rule 64B1-9.007, FAC.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/24/2009 5:46:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

Case law does not trump the constitution, which is the ultimate law of our

 

land. You do confirm my point though about sources of degrees.

 

What you have not said is if you think that people can inaccurately choose

 

to advertise having a doctorate degree when it is unrecognized and if that

 

is acceptable as grounds for license revocation.

 

The state of CA seems to think it is grounds for punishment and has

 

created numerous examples of where practitioners have lost their license on

such

 

grounds. Are you saying they should not have been punished?

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

I hear you, K.

 

But I would like to have clarified if the two tracks are interchangeable. Some

of the most important consideration, as you allude to are cost short term, cost

long term, and earn ability. If someone is taking loans for the whole deal, and

wants the doctorate, then I would agree with you that the FPD would be the way

to go. However, if, like me, you are paying it out yourself, one quarter at a

time, and let's say that you want to just pass the state board, go into

practice, earn a few bucks, and then go back to complete your doctorate, would

one be able to do that lets say, 2/3 of the way through the FPD? In other

words, how much flexibility will candidates have?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Tue, November 24, 2009 8:15:11 AM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

Yehuda,

Just a reminder...

the FDP is optional for schools... so there will still be Masters programs

available.

The FDP is designed for those who want to streamline the process between the

masters and doctoral levels, which should be less expensive, more cohesive

and quicker.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> I personally don't see what's wrong with the current state of affairs:

>

> 1. That the licensure and right to practice is regulated by the states, and

> that licensure is predicated upon graduating from an ACAOM accredited

> Master's program.

> 2. Should a licensed practitioner seek a more advanced level of education,

> there is the DAOM option. As we have spoken of, most DAOM programs are 2

> years, DAOM's learn academics and clinical skills not necessarily available

> to Master's students , and are entitled to call themselves doctors. In the

> networking world in which we live and work, that title should definitely

> mean greater referrals from other medical professionals and higher income.

> What else (such as greater accessability to patients in a hospital setting,

> for example) remains to be seen, but personally, I have been willing to take

> the chance based upon the potential benefit. There is no question that I am

> a better practitioner having nearly completed my first of 2 years.

>

> The only problems that I see in the current state of affairs, are the

> following, and from what I understand they are being resolved:

> 1. I believe that Master's students should be required to have a Bachelor's

> degree in order to attend.

> 2. I believe that greater selectivity should go into the admissions

> process, and entrance should not be automatic.

> 3. I believe that Master's programs should be 4 full years, should have a

> much more rigorous Western Science component and should have greater

> accountability for their clinical internships. Mine was a joke, and the

> amount of patients that I saw was certainly inadequate to properly prepare

> me for clinical practice.

> The schools really need to make a greater effort to promote their clinics

> for the benefit of interns.

>

> Please explain to me, therefore, what would be the advantage of an

> all-inclusive, first professional doctorate?What is wrong with giving a

> student the option that they currently have of either going 4 years, getting

> a masters, and being no less of a professional as a MSW, or MPT? Or if the

> student chooses, let them continue for 2 more years and get their DAOM?

> Again, though, I believe that it is our responsibility to properly promote

> and define just what we are, what a DAOM is, as the MDs, DOs and DCs have

> defined themselves.

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Mon, November 23, 2009 10:13:08 PM

>

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education..

>

> In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your Masters,

> which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you

> attended,

> for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours.

>

> Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for

> entrance.

>

> The FDP should streamline the process.

> One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles,

> entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a

> Chinese medicine practitioner.

>

> Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD, AP....

>

> Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you

> can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can.

>

> Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400...

>

> There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are confused

> about what we do and what our training entails.

>

> K

>

> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, MercuriusTrismegistus <

> magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law.

> > What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or

> > extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though.

> >

> >

> > -

> > " stephenwoodley " <learntcm

<learntcm%40fastmail.fm><learntcm%

> 40fastmail.fm>>

> > To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > >

> > Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> > >

> > > Mercurius wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees

> > > when we

> > > started.

> > >

> > > Stephen:

> > > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM...

> > >

> > >

> > > Stephen WoodleyLAc

> > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> > >

> > > --

> > > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

> > > love email again

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

" At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

 

Hi Mike,

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

That is the case here in NH.

 

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXX/328-G/328-G-9.htm

 

V. Whoever, not being licensed or exempted as provided in this chapter, shall

advertise oneself or in any way hold oneself out as qualified to practice

acupuncture, or shall practice acupuncture, or whoever does so after receiving

notice that one's license has been revoked, and whoever, being licensed as

provided in this chapter, shall advertise or call oneself or allow oneself to be

advertised or called a physician or a doctor in such a way as to imply that such

credential relates to the provision of acupuncture services, or use any

physician's or doctor's insignia for such purposes shall be in violation of this

chapter.

 

Sean

On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> " At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

>

> Hi Mike,

>

> What do you base this statement on?

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

IF THIS PASSES, THERE WILL BE NO MORE MASTER'S DEGREE. A " First Professional "

becomes the entry level. Right now, we have a " First Professional Master's "

degree (entry level). " First Professional Doctorate " (which is what this

discussion is about) means that the Master's becomes obsolete. It would cease

to exist. There would be no interchangeability, because there would only be one

track (FPD). NO FLEXIBILITY.

 

 

 

Opposed? Send your letter into the ACAOM by January 15th: Comments must be

submitted via fax at 301-313-0912 or regular mail (ACAOM, 7501 Greenway Center

Drive, Maryland Trade Center 3, Suite 760, Greenbelt, MD 20770).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:16:35 -0800

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

I hear you, K.

 

But I would like to have clarified if the two tracks are interchangeable. Some

of the most important consideration, as you allude to are cost short term, cost

long term, and earn ability. If someone is taking loans for the whole deal, and

wants the doctorate, then I would agree with you that the FPD would be the way

to go. However, if, like me, you are paying it out yourself, one quarter at a

time, and let's say that you want to just pass the state board, go into

practice, earn a few bucks, and then go back to complete your doctorate, would

one be able to do that lets say, 2/3 of the way through the FPD? In other words,

how much flexibility will candidates have?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Tue, November 24, 2009 8:15:11 AM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

Yehuda,

Just a reminder...

the FDP is optional for schools... so there will still be Masters programs

available.

The FDP is designed for those who want to streamline the process between the

masters and doctoral levels, which should be less expensive, more cohesive

and quicker.

 

K

 

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> I personally don't see what's wrong with the current state of affairs:

>

> 1. That the licensure and right to practice is regulated by the states, and

> that licensure is predicated upon graduating from an ACAOM accredited

> Master's program.

> 2. Should a licensed practitioner seek a more advanced level of education,

> there is the DAOM option. As we have spoken of, most DAOM programs are 2

> years, DAOM's learn academics and clinical skills not necessarily available

> to Master's students , and are entitled to call themselves doctors. In the

> networking world in which we live and work, that title should definitely

> mean greater referrals from other medical professionals and higher income.

> What else (such as greater accessability to patients in a hospital setting,

> for example) remains to be seen, but personally, I have been willing to take

> the chance based upon the potential benefit. There is no question that I am

> a better practitioner having nearly completed my first of 2 years.

>

> The only problems that I see in the current state of affairs, are the

> following, and from what I understand they are being resolved:

> 1. I believe that Master's students should be required to have a Bachelor's

> degree in order to attend.

> 2. I believe that greater selectivity should go into the admissions

> process, and entrance should not be automatic.

> 3. I believe that Master's programs should be 4 full years, should have a

> much more rigorous Western Science component and should have greater

> accountability for their clinical internships. Mine was a joke, and the

> amount of patients that I saw was certainly inadequate to properly prepare

> me for clinical practice.

> The schools really need to make a greater effort to promote their clinics

> for the benefit of interns.

>

> Please explain to me, therefore, what would be the advantage of an

> all-inclusive, first professional doctorate?What is wrong with giving a

> student the option that they currently have of either going 4 years, getting

> a masters, and being no less of a professional as a MSW, or MPT? Or if the

> student chooses, let them continue for 2 more years and get their DAOM?

> Again, though, I believe that it is our responsibility to properly promote

> and define just what we are, what a DAOM is, as the MDs, DOs and DCs have

> defined themselves.

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Mon, November 23, 2009 10:13:08 PM

>

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education..

>

> In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your Masters,

> which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you

> attended,

> for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours.

>

> Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for

> entrance.

>

> The FDP should streamline the process.

> One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles,

> entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a

> Chinese medicine practitioner.

>

> Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD, AP....

>

> Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you

> can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can.

>

> Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400...

>

> There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are confused

> about what we do and what our training entails.

>

> K

>

> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, MercuriusTrismegistus <

> magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law.

> > What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or

> > extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though.

> >

> >

> > -

> > " stephenwoodley " <learntcm

<learntcm%40fastmail.fm><learntcm%

> 40fastmail.fm>>

> > To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > >

> > Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> > >

> > > Mercurius wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees

> > > when we

> > > started.

> > >

> > > Stephen:

> > > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM...

> > >

> > >

> > > Stephen WoodleyLAc

> > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> > >

> > > --

> > > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

> > > love email again

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Hi Sean,

 

I don't see in that statute anything disallowing a DAOM from calling himself

doctor. Can you clarify?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Sean Doherty <sean

Chinese Medicine

Tue, November 24, 2009 3:33:11 PM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

That is the case here in NH.

 

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXX/328-G/328-G-9.htm

 

V. Whoever, not being licensed or exempted as provided in this chapter, shall

advertise oneself or in any way hold oneself out as qualified to practice

acupuncture, or shall practice acupuncture, or whoever does so after receiving

notice that one's license has been revoked, and whoever, being licensed as

provided in this chapter, shall advertise or call oneself or allow oneself to be

advertised or called a physician or a doctor in such a way as to imply that such

credential relates to the provision of acupuncture services, or use any

physician's or doctor's insignia for such purposes shall be in violation of this

chapter.

 

Sean

On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> " At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

>

> Hi Mike,

>

> What do you base this statement on?

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Hi Emily,

 

Again, is there any explicit law acknowledging the existance of the DAOM?

Remember that it is a relatively new designation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Emily Konstan <emilylists

TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Tue, November 24, 2009 3:34:27 PM

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

Yehuda,

I can only speak to my state, but here in Massachusetts acupuncturists are

specifically excluded from using the term " doctor " unless we have an MD. Mass.

regulations do not recognize the DAOM and there is no guarantee that they would

recognize a FPD.

Emily

 

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:20:05 -0800

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

" At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

 

Hi Mike,

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

 

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Guest guest
Posted

Hi Yehuda,

You are correct in that the DAOM is not mentioned by name, because the law was

written before it existed. You can see there, though, that as an LAc you can't

call yourself a doctor or physician in relation to acupuncture services. The

state Board of Acupuncture Licensing has enforced this in relation to master's

level LAcs using the title " doctor " . I will check with them to see if they

would enforce the same ruling with the DAOM. I am considering entering a DAOM

program and wondered about this anyway. I think some of the members of the NH

Licensing Board are on this list, so they might chime in before I get back to

you.

 

Sean

 

On Nov 24, 2009, at 7:00 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Hi Sean,

>

> I don't see in that statute anything disallowing a DAOM from calling himself

doctor. Can you clarify?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Sean Doherty <sean

> Chinese Medicine

> Tue, November 24, 2009 3:33:11 PM

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> That is the case here in NH.

>

> http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXX/328-G/328-G-9.htm

>

> V. Whoever, not being licensed or exempted as provided in this chapter, shall

advertise oneself or in any way hold oneself out as qualified to practice

acupuncture, or shall practice acupuncture, or whoever does so after receiving

notice that one's license has been revoked, and whoever, being licensed as

provided in this chapter, shall advertise or call oneself or allow oneself to be

advertised or called a physician or a doctor in such a way as to imply that such

credential relates to the provision of acupuncture services, or use any

physician's or doctor's insignia for such purposes shall be in violation of this

chapter.

>

> Sean

> On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > " At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

> >

> > Hi Mike,

> >

> > What do you base this statement on?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Current masters degrees are less course time and depth than a

bachelor's in TCM in China.

 

DAOM programs seem to be much more on the integrative biomedicine path.

 

Still, after all of that, who internalizes the Nei Jing and the depth

of our medicine?

 

Masters programs barely skim the surface-- will another degree system

move any closer to that, or just further confine us deeper into the

Western medicine paradigm?

 

I believe the power latent within the community of practitioners of

Ancient Asian medicine is to be found in stepping up our understanding

of the subject in its authenticity, which lies in the 2500+ years of

Chinese medical literature and what remains of the authentic lineages

that have passed it on.

 

If any kind of doctoral degrees are a vehicle to bring us towards

that, wonderful. Otherwise, it's just more student debt and material

to forget after licensing exams.

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Posted

Jessica,

Stop scaring people with incorrect information.

The FPD is optional for the schools and students to choose.

 

If it works well, then most schools will want to opt for it, but it's their

choice.

If a school wants to retain their masters curriculum, they can choose to do

that as well.

 

Let's stick to the facts.. this is starting to get ridiculous.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Jessica Feltz Wolfson <

shantileigh wrote:

 

>

>

>

> IF THIS PASSES, THERE WILL BE NO MORE MASTER'S DEGREE. A " First

> Professional " becomes the entry level. Right now, we have a " First

> Professional Master's " degree (entry level). " First Professional Doctorate "

> (which is what this discussion is about) means that the Master's becomes

> obsolete. It would cease to exist. There would be no interchangeability,

> because there would only be one track (FPD). NO FLEXIBILITY.

>

> Opposed? Send your letter into the ACAOM by January 15th: Comments must be

> submitted via fax at 301-313-0912 or regular mail (ACAOM, 7501 Greenway

> Center Drive, Maryland Trade Center 3, Suite 760, Greenbelt, MD 20770).

>

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <%40>

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:16:35 -0800

>

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> I hear you, K.

>

> But I would like to have clarified if the two tracks are interchangeable.

> Some of the most important consideration, as you allude to are cost short

> term, cost long term, and earn ability. If someone is taking loans for the

> whole deal, and wants the doctorate, then I would agree with you that the

> FPD would be the way to go. However, if, like me, you are paying it out

> yourself, one quarter at a time, and let's say that you want to just pass

> the state board, go into practice, earn a few bucks, and then go back to

> complete your doctorate, would one be able to do that lets say, 2/3 of the

> way through the FPD? In other words, how much flexibility will candidates

> have?

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Tue, November 24, 2009 8:15:11 AM

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> Yehuda,

> Just a reminder...

> the FDP is optional for schools... so there will still be Masters programs

> available.

> The FDP is designed for those who want to streamline the process between

> the

> masters and doctoral levels, which should be less expensive, more cohesive

> and quicker.

>

> K

>

> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 AM, yehuda frischman

<<%40>

> >wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I personally don't see what's wrong with the current state of affairs:

> >

> > 1. That the licensure and right to practice is regulated by the states,

> and

> > that licensure is predicated upon graduating from an ACAOM accredited

> > Master's program.

> > 2. Should a licensed practitioner seek a more advanced level of

> education,

> > there is the DAOM option. As we have spoken of, most DAOM programs are 2

> > years, DAOM's learn academics and clinical skills not necessarily

> available

> > to Master's students , and are entitled to call themselves doctors. In

> the

> > networking world in which we live and work, that title should definitely

> > mean greater referrals from other medical professionals and higher

> income.

> > What else (such as greater accessability to patients in a hospital

> setting,

> > for example) remains to be seen, but personally, I have been willing to

> take

> > the chance based upon the potential benefit. There is no question that I

> am

> > a better practitioner having nearly completed my first of 2 years.

> >

> > The only problems that I see in the current state of affairs, are the

> > following, and from what I understand they are being resolved:

> > 1. I believe that Master's students should be required to have a

> Bachelor's

> > degree in order to attend.

> > 2. I believe that greater selectivity should go into the admissions

> > process, and entrance should not be automatic.

> > 3. I believe that Master's programs should be 4 full years, should have a

> > much more rigorous Western Science component and should have greater

> > accountability for their clinical internships. Mine was a joke, and the

> > amount of patients that I saw was certainly inadequate to properly

> prepare

> > me for clinical practice.

> > The schools really need to make a greater effort to promote their clinics

> > for the benefit of interns.

> >

> > Please explain to me, therefore, what would be the advantage of an

> > all-inclusive, first professional doctorate?What is wrong with giving a

> > student the option that they currently have of either going 4 years,

> getting

> > a masters, and being no less of a professional as a MSW, or MPT? Or if

> the

> > student chooses, let them continue for 2 more years and get their DAOM?

> > Again, though, I believe that it is our responsibility to properly

> promote

> > and define just what we are, what a DAOM is, as the MDs, DOs and DCs have

> > defined themselves.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com><johnkokko%

> 40gmail.com>>

> >

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > Mon, November 23, 2009 10:13:08 PM

> >

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> > Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education..

> >

> > In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your

> Masters,

> > which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you

> > attended,

> > for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours.

> >

> > Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for

> > entrance.

> >

> > The FDP should streamline the process.

> > One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles,

> > entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a

> > Chinese medicine practitioner.

> >

> > Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD,

> AP....

> >

> > Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you

> > can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can.

> >

> > Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400...

> >

> > There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are

> confused

> > about what we do and what our training entails.

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, MercuriusTrismegistus <

> > magisterium_magnum

<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net><magisterium_magnum%

> 40comcast.net>> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law.

> > > What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or

> > > extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though.

> > >

> > >

> > > -

> > > " stephenwoodley " <learntcm

<learntcm%40fastmail.fm><learntcm%

> 40fastmail.fm><learntcm%

> > 40fastmail.fm>>

> > > To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > >

> > > Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM

> > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Mercurius wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees

> > > > when we

> > > > started.

> > > >

> > > > Stephen:

> > > > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Stephen WoodleyLAc

> > > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and

> > > > love email again

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Here are the facts, : If ACAOM says the FPD is entry-level, states are

going to base their laws on this. ACAOM doesn't make laws, but they make

policies that lawmakers rely on. All changes to entry-level requirements in AOM

are currently at a proposal stage. ACAOM has written " standards " for an FPD

curriculum. They are trying to see if the profession wants this new degree and

if they do, ACAOM will essentially partner with any schools that want to pilot

or try these programs out. Once the trial programs begin, ACAOM can apply to

the USDE for what is called in academic terms a " change in scope " which would

then make it possible for schools to have federal loan money for such programs.

THEN, after schools pilot these new programs, have classes graduate, measure

graduation rates, evaluate the programs, etc., the entry-level can change. This

doesn't happen over night, BUT if consensus is achieved at this point in the

game, it is very likely that the profession would change entry level to the new

FPD--the poison fruit.

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:25:31 -0800

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> Jessica,

> Stop scaring people with incorrect information.

> The FPD is optional for the schools and students to choose.

>

> If it works well, then most schools will want to opt for it, but it's their

> choice.

> If a school wants to retain their masters curriculum, they can choose to do

> that as well.

>

> Let's stick to the facts.. this is starting to get ridiculous.

>

> K

 

_______________

Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\

T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

These regulations were updated in 2009. The DAOM is not mentioned specifically

but they do state that no current doctoral programs meet their standards. They

are quite clear that the term " doctor " cannot be used at this time. The

language suggests the possibility of a recognized doctoral program in the

future, but no specifics are given as to what would qualify. Here is the

excerpt: " Use of the Title " Doctor " As noted above, the COA has not yet

recognized any doctoral programs in acupuncture or Oriental medicine as meeting

the requirements of the COA. Until such time as doctoral programs meet these

requirements, an acupuncturist may not in advertising or other materials visible

to the public use the title “doctor. " A licensee who has obtained a medical

degree but is not licensed as a licensed physician in Massachusetts should not,

under any circumstances, use the title “Doctor” in any advertising or other

materials visible to the public pertaining to the licensee’s acupuncture

practice.Use of the title “OMD”To date there are no Oriental Medical Doctor

programs which meet these requirements. Therefore, please be advised that you

cannot advertise that you hold an O.M.D. degree in your Massachusetts

acupuncture practice. "

Chinese Medicine

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:34 -0800

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Emily,

 

 

 

Again, is there any explicit law acknowledging the existance of the DAOM?

Remember that it is a relatively new designation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Emily Konstan <emilylists

 

TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

 

Tue, November 24, 2009 3:34:27 PM

 

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

Yehuda,

 

I can only speak to my state, but here in Massachusetts acupuncturists are

specifically excluded from using the term " doctor " unless we have an MD. Mass.

regulations do not recognize the DAOM and there is no guarantee that they would

recognize a FPD.

 

Emily

 

 

 

 

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:20:05 -0800

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

" At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

 

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Have we any documented proof that current Master's here are less than a

Bachelor's in China?

 

I would think with my Bachelor's and Master's I spent over 8 years in

school...

 

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Eric Rosenbush <adividya wrote:

 

>

>

> Current masters degrees are less course time and depth than a

> bachelor's in TCM in China.

>

> DAOM programs seem to be much more on the integrative biomedicine path.

>

> Still, after all of that, who internalizes the Nei Jing and the depth

> of our medicine?

>

> Masters programs barely skim the surface-- will another degree system

> move any closer to that, or just further confine us deeper into the

> Western medicine paradigm?

>

> I believe the power latent within the community of practitioners of

> Ancient Asian medicine is to be found in stepping up our understanding

> of the subject in its authenticity, which lies in the 2500+ years of

> Chinese medical literature and what remains of the authentic lineages

> that have passed it on.

>

> If any kind of doctoral degrees are a vehicle to bring us towards

> that, wonderful. Otherwise, it's just more student debt and material

> to forget after licensing exams.

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

NEW!! See my webpages @: http://acuchu.com

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

You can look online at any of the main TCM schools' websites (Beijing,

Chengdu, Shanghai, etc).

Undergraduate acupuncture programs are 4 years, and full TCM with

herbs is 5.

 

Including science prerequisites, US Master's programs still seem to

have less course time in total. There is much more Western and

Chinese medicine covered in Chinese undergraduate programs. Also, in

China, classes like Huangdi Neijing, Shang Han Lun, Jin Gui Yao Lue,

Wen Bing, etc are all mandatory.

 

With our diverse educational system, one could have a PhD already

before enrolling in TCM school. While providing a broader base of

general knowledge, character development, etc--- that still doesn't

change the amount of time spent actually studying the medicine, or

what level of TCM knowledge is regarded as standard.

 

 

 

On Nov 24, 2009, at 8:49 PM, Robert Chu wrote:

 

> Have we any documented proof that current Master's here are less

> than a

> Bachelor's in China?

>

> I would think with my Bachelor's and Master's I spent over 8 years in

> school...

>

> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Eric Rosenbush <adividya

> wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Current masters degrees are less course time and depth than a

>> bachelor's in TCM in China.

>>

>> DAOM programs seem to be much more on the integrative biomedicine

>> path.

>>

>> Still, after all of that, who internalizes the Nei Jing and the depth

>> of our medicine?

>>

>> Masters programs barely skim the surface-- will another degree system

>> move any closer to that, or just further confine us deeper into the

>> Western medicine paradigm?

>>

>> I believe the power latent within the community of practitioners of

>> Ancient Asian medicine is to be found in stepping up our

>> understanding

>> of the subject in its authenticity, which lies in the 2500+ years of

>> Chinese medical literature and what remains of the authentic lineages

>> that have passed it on.

>>

>> If any kind of doctoral degrees are a vehicle to bring us towards

>> that, wonderful. Otherwise, it's just more student debt and material

>> to forget after licensing exams.

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

> chusauli

>

> NEW!! See my webpages @: http://acuchu.com

>

>

>

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Emily,

 

What is the general feeling of acupuncturists and practitioners of Oriental

Medicine in Massachusetts concerning the status quo.  It is interesting that

all of the DAOM programs are on the West Coast, but why is that ?  If there

is interest in changing the status quo, is any lobbying being done with

legislators?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Emily Konstan <emilylists

TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Tue, November 24, 2009 6:40:40 PM

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

These regulations were updated in 2009.  The DAOM is not mentioned specifically

but they do state that no current doctoral programs meet their standards.  They

are quite clear that the term " doctor " cannot be used at this time.  The

language suggests the possibility of a recognized doctoral program in the

future, but no specifics are given as to what would qualify.  Here is the

excerpt: " Use of the Title " Doctor " As noted above, the COA has not yet

recognized any doctoral programs in acupuncture or Oriental medicine as meeting

the requirements of the COA. Until such time as doctoral programs meet these

requirements, an acupuncturist may not in advertising or other materials visible

to the public use the title “doctor. " A licensee who has obtained a medical

degree but is not licensed as a licensed physician in Massachusetts should not,

under any circumstances, use the title “Doctor†in any advertising or other

materials visible to the public

pertaining to the licensee’s acupuncture practice.Use of the title

“OMDâ€To date there are no Oriental Medical Doctor programs which meet these

requirements. Therefore, please be advised that you cannot advertise that you

hold an O.M.D. degree in your Massachusetts acupuncture practice. "

Chinese Medicine

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:34 -0800

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

     

     

      Hi Emily,

 

 

 

Again, is there any explicit law acknowledging the existance of the DAOM? 

Remember that it is a relatively new designation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Emily Konstan <emilylists

 

TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

 

Tue, November 24, 2009 3:34:27 PM

 

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

Yehuda,

 

I can only speak to my state, but here in Massachusetts acupuncturists are

specifically excluded from using the term " doctor " unless we have an MD.  Mass.

regulations do not recognize the DAOM and there is no guarantee that they would

recognize a FPD.

 

Emily

 

 

 

 

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:20:05 -0800

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

" At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title. 

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well.  You can certainly

mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also

have the suffix following your name.... "

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

 

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Yehuda

 

As Dave Molony says....this is a state by state basis.

Keep in the forefront the mind-sets from each state as to scope of

practice....... such as whether or not the licensees are primary care providers.

 

If one ALREADY functions as a doctor/physician based upon scope of

practice the fascist controllers can NOT prevent one from using such titles. In

certain cases it might be true that one has to fight a legal battle to force

the removal of an UNLAWFUL law. As as I already mentioned even in Florida

the government fails to R#EMOVE VOID laws that have been stricken down by

the Federal Courts.

 

At the moment it appears that we still have both Free Speech and Commercial

Free Speech as protected under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

 

There is a huge difference between working with an attorney and being your

own pro se in court and with all pleadings.

 

West Coast practitioners are more primary care versus Northeast who by

scope of law are technicians (no disrespect meant).

 

One must consider the outlook on an FPD from these varied positions.

 

I completed a four year Masters from a night-trade-school but more

importantly accomplished two apprenticeships. One with Robert Sohn, PhD, LAc

and

the other with Dr Wu, Boping, MD OMD PhD (China) for over six years.

 

I practice in Florida where my legal scope states I am a primary care

provider who diagnoses and treats illness and injury.

 

What makes my education worth less than a DAOM? Because I wasn't extorted

hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process?

 

I legally..... according to Florida statutes and Rules USE all of the

letters after my name.

I do not use DR. in front of my name.

Most MDs don't use DR. in front of their name....as it appears to be a bit

cheesy and wanna-be.

What do I actually call myself?

ORIENTAL MEDICAL PRACTITIONER!!!!

1) Because that is legally allowed by Florida statute

and

2) Because that's what I practice.

 

I do NOT practice BIOMEDICINE.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/25/2009 4:32:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

 

Emily,

 

What is the general feeling of acupuncturists and practitioners of

Oriental Medicine in Massachusetts concerning the status quo. It is

interesting

that all of the DAOM programs are on the West Coast, but why is that ? If

there is interest in changing the status quo, is any lobbying being done

with legislators?

 

Yehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, candidate, DAOM

www.traditionaljewiwww.traditiwww

www.traditionaljewiwww.traditiwww.tradiwww

 

 

 

________________________________

Emily Konstan <_emilylists_

(emilylists) >

TCM list <_traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_

(Chinese Traditional Medicine ) >

Tue, November 24, 2009 6:40:40 PM

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

These regulations were updated in 2009. The DAOM is not mentioned

specifically but they do state that no current doctoral programs meet their

standards. They are quite clear that the term " doctor " cannot be used at this

time. The language suggests the possibility of a recognized doctoral program

in the future, but no specifics are given as to what would qualify. Here

is the excerpt: " Use of the Title " Doctor " As noted above, the COA has not

yet recognized any doctoral programs in acupuncture or Oriental medicine as

meeting the requirements of the COA. Until such time as doctoral programs

meet these requirements, an acupuncturist may not in advertising or other

materials visible to the public use the title “doctor. " A licensee who has

obtained a medical degree but is not licensed as a licensed physician in

Massachusetts should not, under any circumstances, use the title “Doctorâ€

in

any advertising or other materials visible to the public

pertaining to the licensee’s acupuncture practice.Use of the title “OMDâ€

To date there are no Oriental Medical Doctor programs which meet these

requirements. Therefore, please be advised that you cannot advertise that you

hold an O.M.D. degree in your Massachusetts acupuncture practice. "

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

__ ()

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:34 -0800

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Emily,

 

Again, is there any explicit law acknowledging the existance of the DAOM?

Remember that it is a relatively new designation.

 

, candidate, DAOM

 

www.traditionaljewiwww.traditiwww

 

www.traditionaljewiwww.traditiwww.tradiwww

 

________________________________

 

Emily Konstan <_emilylists_

(emilylists) >

 

TCM list <_traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_

(Chinese Traditional Medicine ) >

 

Tue, November 24, 2009 3:34:27 PM

 

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

Yehuda,

 

I can only speak to my state, but here in Massachusetts acupuncturists are

specifically excluded from using the term " doctor " unless we have an MD.

Mass. regulations do not recognize the DAOM and there is no guarantee that

they would recognize a FPD.

 

Emily

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. com

 

 

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:20:05 -0800

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

" At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor

title. States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected

title or limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can

certainly mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card

and also have the suffix following your name.... "

 

Hi Mike,

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

, candidate, DAOM

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

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Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

The doctoral discussion is not on most people’s radar out

here (besides those of us in the Community Acupuncture Network). The state

organization has spent most of its

time researching the feasibility of getting insurance coverage (almost no

insurance companies in Mass. cover acupuncture).

 

 

 

My patients already have a primary care doctor and often see

several specialists. The last thing they

want is *another* doctor. Calling

myself “doctor” (were it even legal in my state) and wearing a lab coat or

other trappings of Western medicine would alienate most of my patients.

 

 

 

I have an obligation to do what is in the best interest of

my patients. After listening to both

sides of the debate since this question came up years ago, I have come to the

conclusion that an FPD would do more harm than good.

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:32:30 -0800

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Emily,

 

 

 

What is the general feeling of acupuncturists and practitioners of Oriental

Medicine in Massachusetts concerning the status quo. It is interesting that all

of the DAOM programs are on the West Coast, but why is that ? If there is

interest in changing the status quo, is any lobbying being done with

legislators?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Emily Konstan <emilylists

 

TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

 

Tue, November 24, 2009 6:40:40 PM

 

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

These regulations were updated in 2009. The DAOM is not mentioned specifically

but they do state that no current doctoral programs meet their standards. They

are quite clear that the term " doctor " cannot be used at this time. The

language suggests the possibility of a recognized doctoral program in the

future, but no specifics are given as to what would qualify. Here is the

excerpt: " Use of the Title " Doctor " As noted above, the COA has not yet

recognized any doctoral programs in acupuncture or Oriental medicine as meeting

the requirements of the COA. Until such time as doctoral programs meet these

requirements, an acupuncturist may not in advertising or other materials visible

to the public use the title “doctor. " A licensee who has obtained a medical

degree but is not licensed as a licensed physician in Massachusetts should not,

under any circumstances, use the title “Doctor” in any advertising or other

materials visible to the public

 

pertaining to the licensee’s acupuncture practice.Use of the title “OMD”To date

there are no Oriental Medical Doctor programs which meet these requirements.

Therefore, please be advised that you cannot advertise that you hold an O.M.D.

degree in your Massachusetts acupuncture practice. "

 

Chinese Medicine

 

 

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:34 -0800

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Emily,

 

 

 

Again, is there any explicit law acknowledging the existance of the DAOM?

Remember that it is a relatively new designation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

 

 

Emily Konstan <emilylists

 

 

 

TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

 

 

 

Tue, November 24, 2009 3:34:27 PM

 

 

 

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

Yehuda,

 

 

 

I can only speak to my state, but here in Massachusetts acupuncturists are

specifically excluded from using the term " doctor " unless we have an MD. Mass.

regulations do not recognize the DAOM and there is no guarantee that they would

recognize a FPD.

 

 

 

Emily

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:20:05 -0800

 

 

 

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

" At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

 

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

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Posted

Jens

 

You can spend as much money on extra (questionable) education as you want

and I applaud you for it.

Just don't foster and force your desires or the ramifications of an FPD on

others who have come before you.

 

Many of us believe that a FPD will do such damage.

 

This IMO is why the old way of truly apprenticing should have never been

supplanted.

But here in the USA (existed at one point in Florida) when we had

apprenticeships they went sideways and turned crooked.

 

Lastly those in favor of FPD.......to their own defensive position are

using scare tactics and misinformation.

 

What happened to what we now have...... the Masters as entry level and if

one wants a NON-PhD Research so-called Doctoral (DAOM) degree then so be it?

 

A FPD does not appear that it will co-exist with a Masters Entry Level.

By hook or crook the Masters will disappear.

By definition a FIRST means exactly that.....the beginning....NO more

Masters.

 

Those who have practiced long before these events are your elders and

generally speaking over time have mostly accumulated the clinical experience

purportedly you are pursuing in DAOM etc. and THEY need to EITHER be gr

andfathered

That's assuming this is REALLY about the future students and the future of

the profession.

 

I'll go you one better.,

Why doesn't the allopathic world of control ........TRADE us an MD license

just like they gobbled up the DOs? Its not like they haven't done it

before.

 

In lieu of getting an MD license.....in trade.....and if the AOM

profession (governed by the English Duggan Five Organizations) intent is really

for

the future of the profession....and not about the BIG BUCKS the

night-trade-schools can make on yet another dream degree..... then lets see an

UPFRONT

GUARANTEE of the grandfathering to ALL who came before. Any licensee still

in practice all these years DESERVES it.

 

Anything short of this is just about BIG BUCKS suckered out of students

which all eventually is kicked up to the Tri-Lateral, CFR, Bilderbergers,

etc.....those who run the world order.

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/25/2009 1:02:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

jens writes:

 

Ok, before the rapid descend into spurious arguments starts to cloud the

issue at hand even more, here is the core issue (as I see it):

I, and according to recent polls a majority of the OM profession, think

that we should elevate our craft by creating a unified educational level- the

FDP.

Since it will coexist with a Master level education it will be an option.

What I don't get at all is the fact that the opposition to this optional

improvement is trying, unfortunately using scare tactics and misinformation,

to prevent ANY of us from availing ourselves of that option.

WHY???

If you despise the FPD and everything it stands for (???) DON'T GET ONE.

 

 

 

 

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Posted

Emily

 

A logical and reasonable course of action.

Exactly what I do and have done.

A force of one is pretty powerful.

 

As to the comment by others regarding the lack of ability to practice in

clinic by graduates.....well.

36 months and 2800 hrs should have be more than sufficient to bring those

students up to the basics.....(a FAILURE of those schools...not the

education).

 

HEY the DCs who use DR. before their names....proudly do it in 100 hrs and

in many states the MDs/DOs don't even feel the necessity to do any

training.

 

And as we all should know.....the majority of AOM has nothing to do with

allopathic or chiropractic medical training. The 2800-3200 hr programs has

approximately 450 hrs of western concepts.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/25/2009 1:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

emilylists writes:

 

 

I could not afford to

spend the money on a doctorate and still keep my prices reasonable, which

would

mean excluding a large percentage of my patients from care. Surely, that

is not

in their best interest.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the

issue is not just whether an individual should get a doctorate. The FPD

has the potential to negatively

impact the profession as a whole, by making acupuncture school less

accessible

to incoming students and making acupuncture treatments more expensive and

out

of the reach of the majority of patients.

 

 

Other

practitioners in this group have already presented the arguments against

the

FPD and I won't rehash them here. Each

of us needs to form an opinion about this issue and then do what we feel

is

best. The Community Acupuncture Network

has provided several suggestions for action, for those of us who oppose the

FPD.

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:08:48 +0000

> RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

> Emily,

> Not sure why you came to this conclusion and what facts you used. This

issue is not an either or situation. You can do what is best for your

patients, you can get advanced training, communicate or understand what other

doctors are doing, and still have a doctorate.

> My concern from what I have seen with many students (in a school

setting) is a lack of ability to practice effectively or understanding of

diagnosis. A lot is crammed into the 3-4 years and most of it is not useful in

clinic.

> For this reason, I like what SIOM has instilled in their program from

the beginning, a clinical component. I think it is also very easy to make

decisions when we are not involved with teaching in a school. For those that

are, maybe they can shed some light on these issues and how important a

doctorate degree is for them and our future. Anyone out there teaching in a

OM school?

> Options are what is needed and that includes allowing some of us to be

involved with insurance companies as well. Not everyone wants to focus on

cash only. I would not want to take this away for fellow colleagues.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > emilylists

> > Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:14:48 -0500

> > RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> >

> > The doctoral discussion is not on most people’s radar out

> > here (besides those of us in the Community Acupuncture Network). The

state organization has spent most of its

> > time researching the feasibility of getting insurance coverage (almost

no

> > insurance companies in Mass. cover acupuncture).

> >

> >

> >

> > My patients already have a primary care doctor and often see

> > several specialists. The last thing they

> > want is *another* doctor. Calling

> > myself “doctor†(were it even legal in my state) and wearing a lab

coat or

> > other trappings of Western medicine would alienate most of my

patients.

> >

> >

> >

> > I have an obligation to do what is in the best interest of

> > my patients. After listening to both

> > sides of the debate since this question came up years ago, I have come

to the

> > conclusion that an FPD would do more harm than good.

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:32:30 -0800

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Emily,

> >

> >

> >

> > What is the general feeling of acupuncturists and practitioners of

Oriental Medicine in Massachusetts concerning the status quo. It is

interesting that all of the DAOM programs are on the West Coast, but why is

that ?

If there is interest in changing the status quo, is any lobbying being done

with legislators?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> >

> > Emily Konstan <emilylists

> >

> > TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

> >

> > Tue, November 24, 2009 6:40:40 PM

> >

> > RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> >

> >

> > These regulations were updated in 2009. The DAOM is not mentioned

specifically but they do state that no current doctoral programs meet their

standards. They are quite clear that the term " doctor " cannot be used at

this time. The language suggests the possibility of a recognized doctoral

program in the future, but no specifics are given as to what would qualify.

Here is the excerpt: " Use of the Title " Doctor " As noted above, the COA has

not yet recognized any doctoral programs in acupuncture or Oriental medicine

as meeting the requirements of the COA. Until such time as doctoral

programs meet these requirements, an acupuncturist may not in advertising or

other materials visible to the public use the title “doctor. " A licensee who

has

obtained a medical degree but is not licensed as a licensed physician in

Massachusetts should not, under any circumstances, use the title “Doctorâ€

in any advertising or other materials visible to the public

> >

> > pertaining to the licensee’s acupuncture practice.Use of the title “

OMDâ€To date there are no Oriental Medical Doctor programs which meet these

requirements. Therefore, please be advised that you cannot advertise that

you hold an O.M.D. degree in your Massachusetts acupuncture practice. "

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> >

> >

> >

> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:34 -0800

> >

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Emily,

> >

> >

> >

> > Again, is there any explicit law acknowledging the existance of the

DAOM? Remember that it is a relatively new designation.

> >

> >

> >

> > Yehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> >

> >

> >

> > Emily Konstan <emilylists

> >

> >

> >

> > TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

> >

> >

> >

> > Tue, November 24, 2009 3:34:27 PM

> >

> >

> >

> > RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> >

> >

> > Yehuda,

> >

> >

> >

> > I can only speak to my state, but here in Massachusetts acupuncturists

are specifically excluded from using the term " doctor " unless we have an

MD. Mass. regulations do not recognize the DAOM and there is no guarantee

that they would recognize a FPD.

> >

> >

> >

> > Emily

> >

> >

> >

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:20:05 -0800

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >

> >

> >

> > " At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor

title. States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected

title or limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can

certainly mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business

card and also have the suffix following your name.... "

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Mike,

> >

> >

> >

> > What do you base this statement on?

> >

> >

> >

> > , candidate, DAOM

> >

> >

> >

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> >

> >

> >

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> >

> >

> >

> > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.

> >

> >

> >

> > http://www.microsof t.com/Windows/ windows-7/ default.aspx?

ocid=PID24727: :T:WLMTAGL: ON:WL:en- US:WWL_WIN_ evergreen: 112009v2

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________

> >

> > Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place.

> >

> >

http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants & form=MFESRP & publ=WLHMTAG & crea=TEXT_MFES\

RP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> > ---

> >

> >

> >

> > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

> >

> >

> >

> > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

medicine and acupuncture, click,

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

> >

> >

> >

> >

and adjust

accordingly.

> >

> >

> >

> > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

group requires prior permission from the author.

> >

> >

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely necessary.

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

David

 

It is interesting that the DOCTOR title gets confused with education such

as doctorates etc but the word PHYSICIAN does not....and therein was one of

the huge battles we had in Florida.

 

The Florida communists LOST both issues ......the easier of the two was the

Acupuncture Physician title.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/25/2009 10:49:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

In some states you can call yourself a doctor, but not a physician, and in

other states the opposite is true. It is a state to state issue.

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest
Posted

This is like the proverbial comparison of apples to oranges. In China, a BS

degree is in the field, whereas here it is not. There was a CA program that did

offer one once but dropped it, most likely do to this being a substantive change

and therefore an accreditation violation. When someone gets their BS and then

MS in China, they look the same on paper but content is much different. We are

learning a new way of thinking from another culture. This is a huge leap.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

> Chinese Medicine

> chusauli

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:49:13 -0800

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> Have we any documented proof that current Master's here are less than a

> Bachelor's in China?

>

> I would think with my Bachelor's and Master's I spent over 8 years in

> school...

>

> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Eric Rosenbush <adividya wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Current masters degrees are less course time and depth than a

> > bachelor's in TCM in China.

> >

> > DAOM programs seem to be much more on the integrative biomedicine path.

> >

> > Still, after all of that, who internalizes the Nei Jing and the depth

> > of our medicine?

> >

> > Masters programs barely skim the surface-- will another degree system

> > move any closer to that, or just further confine us deeper into the

> > Western medicine paradigm?

> >

> > I believe the power latent within the community of practitioners of

> > Ancient Asian medicine is to be found in stepping up our understanding

> > of the subject in its authenticity, which lies in the 2500+ years of

> > Chinese medical literature and what remains of the authentic lineages

> > that have passed it on.

> >

> > If any kind of doctoral degrees are a vehicle to bring us towards

> > that, wonderful. Otherwise, it's just more student debt and material

> > to forget after licensing exams.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

> chusauli

>

> NEW!! See my webpages @: http://acuchu.com

>

>

>

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Emily,This is something we have to look forward to in the future. I see this as

an attempt to try to limit our marketing ability. Any idea as to who proposed

this language?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> emilylists

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:40:40 -0500

> RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

> These regulations were updated in 2009. The DAOM is not mentioned

specifically but they do state that no current doctoral programs meet their

standards. They are quite clear that the term " doctor " cannot be used at this

time. The language suggests the possibility of a recognized doctoral program in

the future, but no specifics are given as to what would qualify. Here is the

excerpt: " Use of the Title " Doctor " As noted above, the COA has not yet

recognized any doctoral programs in acupuncture or Oriental medicine as meeting

the requirements of the COA. Until such time as doctoral programs meet these

requirements, an acupuncturist may not in advertising or other materials visible

to the public use the title “doctor. " A licensee who has obtained a medical

degree but is not licensed as a licensed physician in Massachusetts should not,

under any circumstances, use the title “Doctor” in any advertising or other

materials visible to the public pertaining to the licensee’s acupuncture

practice.Use of the title “OMD”To date there are no Oriental Medical Doctor

programs which meet these requirements. Therefore, please be advised that you

cannot advertise that you hold an O.M.D. degree in your Massachusetts

acupuncture practice. "

> Chinese Medicine

>

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:34 -0800

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Hi Emily,

>

>

>

> Again, is there any explicit law acknowledging the existance of the DAOM?

Remember that it is a relatively new designation.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________

>

> Emily Konstan <emilylists

>

> TCM list <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

>

> Tue, November 24, 2009 3:34:27 PM

>

> RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

>

> Yehuda,

>

> I can only speak to my state, but here in Massachusetts acupuncturists are

specifically excluded from using the term " doctor " unless we have an MD. Mass.

regulations do not recognize the DAOM and there is no guarantee that they would

recognize a FPD.

>

> Emily

>

>

>

>

>

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:20:05 -0800

>

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

>

> " At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title.

States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title or

limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly mention

you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and also have the

suffix following your name.... "

>

>

>

> Hi Mike,

>

>

>

> What do you base this statement on?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

>

>

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

>

>

>

>

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

The schools can put pressure on ACAOM, which has not always been a force for

change. They have actually shut down programs and forced schools to drop these.

There was a program already in existence until recently that offered an FPD to

its students. It turned out to be about an additional year of school for five.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

shantileigh

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:39:58 -0500

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are the facts, : If ACAOM says the FPD is entry-level, states are

going to base their laws on this. ACAOM doesn't make laws, but they make

policies that lawmakers rely on. All changes to entry-level requirements in AOM

are currently at a proposal stage. ACAOM has written " standards " for an FPD

curriculum. They are trying to see if the profession wants this new degree and

if they do, ACAOM will essentially partner with any schools that want to pilot

or try these programs out. Once the trial programs begin, ACAOM can apply to

the USDE for what is called in academic terms a " change in scope " which would

then make it possible for schools to have federal loan money for such programs.

THEN, after schools pilot these new programs, have classes graduate, measure

graduation rates, evaluate the programs, etc., the entry-level can change. This

doesn't happen over night, BUT if consensus is achieved at this point in the

game, it is very likely that the profession would change entry level to the new

FPD--the poison fruit.

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

 

> johnkokko

 

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:25:31 -0800

 

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

>

 

> Jessica,

 

> Stop scaring people with incorrect information.

 

> The FPD is optional for the schools and students to choose.

 

>

 

> If it works well, then most schools will want to opt for it, but it's their

 

> choice.

 

> If a school wants to retain their masters curriculum, they can choose to do

 

> that as well.

 

>

 

> Let's stick to the facts.. this is starting to get ridiculous.

 

>

 

> K

 

 

 

________

 

Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

 

http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\

T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

Robert,

here is an email I sent last year .... unfortunately Deke Kendall's pdf is

not available any longer...

 

It is interesting to analyze the curriculum comparisons between Cheng Du,

Beijing and California.... (source Deke Kendall cross-school study)

 

In China, the Biomed and Acupuncture hours are greater than CA, but

surprisingly

*the Herbal education hours in CA are over twice as much than in China. 450

(CA) vs 207 / 198*

*

The Clinical Clerkship hours in China are significantly higher: 950 (CA)

vs 1792 / 1538*

 

Also to note, China's schools have a foreign language prerequisite, even

though they study their native medicine.

Even though we are studying a " foreign " medicine, there is not foreign

language prerequisite in this country.

That points to making Chinese language a more integral aspect of our

education.

Not only is it better for the students, but also for Chinese teachers, who

can convey information better to more informed students.

It is more difficult to get Chinese teachers who can speak English well,

than to teach Americans to understand medical Chinese.

 

China also has around 200 hours of Classical Texts elective studies, while

we are lucky if we can study one classic while in school.

Usually it's the Shang han lun (30 hours).

That points to more Classical text study in U.S. colleges.

 

Deke Kendall has a slant in his 3600 hour proposal for more Biomedical

sciences and Orthopedics.

My suggestion is for the implementation of an entry level doctorate program

(4200 hours),

taking into account the DAOM programs curriculum and those of China's major

colleges.

1. More advanced and practical integrative biomedicine study

2. Chinese language proficiency during school

3. More clinical clerkship hours (externships and potential residency

opportunities)

4. Classical text studies

 

The requirements to get into TCM school should be more difficult, (4 year

degree)

as well as the requirements to get a license (more difficult training and

testing).

 

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Robert Chu <chusauli wrote:

 

> Have we any documented proof that current Master's here are less than a

> Bachelor's in China?

>

> I would think with my Bachelor's and Master's I spent over 8 years in

> school...

>

>

>

--

 

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

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Guest guest   

Guest guest
Posted

What about Ted Kaptchuk's title? 

MA is an academic/economic facist state, relative to " doctors " because of their

stranglehold of institutions there. What do DC's have to call themselves there?

or ND's?

In some states you can call yourself a doctor, but not a physician, and in other

states the opposite is true. It is a state to state issue.

David Molony

 

On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:35:31 AM, " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

Emily,This is something we have to look forward to in the future. I see this as

an attempt to try to limit our marketing ability. Any idea as to who proposed

this language?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> emilylists

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:40:40 -0500

> RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> 

> 

> These regulations were updated in 2009. The DAOM is not mentioned specifically

but they do state that no current doctoral programs meet their standards. They

are quite clear that the term " doctor " cannot be used at this time. The language

suggests the possibility of a recognized doctoral program in the future, but no

specifics are given as to what would qualify. Here is the excerpt: " Use of the

Title " Doctor " As noted above, the COA has not yet recognized any doctoral

programs in acupuncture or Oriental medicine as meeting the requirements of the

COA. Until such time as doctoral programs meet these requirements, an

acupuncturist may not in advertising or other materials visible to the public

use the title “doctor. " A licensee who has obtained a medical degree but is not

licensed as a licensed physician in Massachusetts should not, under any

circumstances, use the title “Doctor” in any advertising or other materials

visible to the public pertaining to the licenseeÂ’s acupuncture practice.Use of

the title “OMD”To date there are no Oriental Medical Doctor programs which

meet these requirements. Therefore, please be advised that you cannot advertise

that you hold an O.M.D. degree in your Massachusetts acupuncture practice. "

> Chinese Medicine

>

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:34 -0800

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> 

 

 

 

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