RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

[Guest guest]

True, but the entrance competition for spots in Med school is fierce, and

except for new or out of the country medical schools, applicants had better

have exceptional grades and MCAT scores to get in.  And once in, as I said,

the course load is relentless. Do our school even look at our undergrad GPAs?

no more than a passing glance.  Are there any medical entrance exams?

Nope!  So, IMO, we really can't compare our entrance process to theirs. 

What can we do?  At the very least, raise our entrance standards by at least

requiring a Bachelor's degree. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

" acudoc11 " <acudoc11

Chinese Medicine

Thu, November 26, 2009 7:47:08 AM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

Yehuda

 

An important FACT that is not presently known or maybe ignored.

 

The AMAs current entrance requirement for med school is just slightly

higher (@ 90 credits) than the chiros (@ 60 credits) and acupuncturists (@ 60

credits).

 

So where is the AOM profession so out of sync with the rest of US

educational scheme?

 

Richard

 

 

[Guest guest]

Respectfully disagree.

WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

Richard,

We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not

exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on

it and learn to act in a way that reflects this.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael

 

Its another one of those multi-tiered issues.

In some states YES ..more credits or a BS and in many states NO...nothing

more than 60 credits.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 10:25:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

Where are you getting this info? The link to my chiro college has much

higher numbers. You can check this at

http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html

As this is a CCE issue, then other schools of chiropractic should be the

same. Not sure of what the MD have.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Cheapie acupuncture already exists by others untrained.

And when the fed Acup Bill passes ALL LAc's will be left out.

And then you see REAL cheapie.

When we supported (_www.aomnc.com_ (http://www.aomnc.com) ) the

acupuncture bill is was conceptually written correctly but now my guess is that

is

will fail.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 11:32:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

and there will undoubtedly be some sort of cheapie acupuncture available

as the profession grows and embraces its availability.

Dvid Molony

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At one point circa 1994 we had 20 acupuncture schools in Florida alone when

there was around 50 nationwide.

That was when we switching from the two year 1800 hour program to the 4 yr

(36 month - 2800 hours) ACAOM/CCAOM accreditation.

 

Now we have only six schools left.

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 12:47:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sean writes:

 

Richard,

Twenty five thousand still in practice or licensed. We have about 4

schools in a half hour radius from me, move down towards Boston and there are

a

lot more. One school that listed tuition cost online (most didn't) was

just shy of about $10K for a 13 month program. I just know that I have seen a

lot of massage therapists over the years whose bodies couldn't keep up

with the physical demand of the profession. Lots of them quit.

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Richard,

We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not exist as

outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on it and

learn to act in a way that reflects this.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:33:05 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sean

 

 

 

Far from me to suggest the legal path and especially how crooked and

 

controlled it is.

 

I had my fill of legal battles with rigged attorneys.

 

That's why I said it depends on what the " system " wants in NH.

 

I was a big time novice in 1998 when I thought I/we did such a great job

 

with some legislative issues.

 

The Bills passed 100% in the Florida House and 100% in the Florida Senate.

 

And I was gloating....only to realize retrospectively that we were HAD.

 

What the system wants - it gives and what it wants to take away - it also

 

does.

 

As with TCM ........you got to get your fingers on the pulses.

 

You know the story about increasing rates is totally FALSE.

 

If anything AOM modalities would decrease rates and therein lies the scam.

 

Insurance companies primarily make their money on HIGH exorbitant premiums

 

by investments and not by saving on pay outs.

 

Its interesting that the NDs out smarted the DCs in NH.

 

Maybe that's who you might go to for a legislative effort.

 

Of course none of this is legal advice. LOL

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:01:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

sean writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

I don't think anyone has the money or the heart to take on that fight here

 

in NH. We attempted to get a parity bill passed this year. It looked

 

good in the public meetings, but was shot down by the Commerce Committee. The

 

BC/BS lobbyist was the only one that showed up from the insurance

 

industry, he was, of course, against it. The Commerce Committee stated they

didn't

 

want to do anything that would increase insurance rates and place an undue

 

burden on small business. The BC/BS lobbyist frequently takes the head of

 

the Commerce Committee out to lunch, supposedly. I think we will probably

 

try it again sometime.

 

 

 

Naturopaths used to have to do the master's, but now they have added an

 

acupuncture component to their national exam. I don't recall the number of

 

hours they have to complete in OM to be able to sit for the OM component of

 

their boards.

 

 

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Richard,

 

Where are you getting this info? The link to my chiro college has much higher

numbers. You can check this at

http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html

As this is a CCE issue, then other schools of chiropractic should be the same.

Not sure of what the MD have.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:47:08 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

An important FACT that is not presently known or maybe ignored.

 

 

 

The AMAs current entrance requirement for med school is just slightly

 

higher (@ 90 credits) than the chiros (@ 60 credits) and acupuncturists (@ 60

 

credits).

 

 

 

So where is the AOM profession so out of sync with the rest of US

 

educational scheme?

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not to exceed

ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers in line until they

retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to others and especially

prescription formulations. Retirement is the answer and it is coming to a time

when old folks are doing so, as the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget,

this FPD will take 10 years until the first ones graduate, much less when it

becomes FPD availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be retired before it

takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be some sort of  cheapie

acupuncture available as the profession grows and embraces its availability.

Dvid Molony

 

On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " < wrote:

 

 Heretofore, every increasing  demand on new students, in terms of hours and

courses of study, has allowed already licensed practitioners to grandfather in,

maintaining their status quo, to the point where  DOM's from the early '80s can

still call themselves DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of

acupuncture and nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education

required students to know

Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it are perfectly

acceptable in continuing their practice, and even practicing Chinese herbal

medicine without any training!  As a matter of fact, I had in school a professor

who had been in practice well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture

technician.  The trouble was that when he took the California state board, there

were no herbs or formulas on it.  NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he simply

took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for patients, based upon

symptoms and western complaints! I also know of many other licensed

practitioners who  sell their patients medicines in pill form without having

studied herbs.  I am disgusted by this sham, and yet that's one of the dark

consequences of grandfathering.  

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

primarily opposed to the FPD?

 

Respectfully,

 

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

Health without Drugs or Surgery

105 Tivoli Gardens

Peachtree City, GA 30269

770.780.9608

info

www.davidtoone.com

On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

 

> As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

> to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

> in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

> others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

> answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

> the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

> years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

> availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

> Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

> retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

> some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

> and embraces its availability.

> Dvid Molony

>

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

> < wrote:

>

> Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

> hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

> practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

> the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

> DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

> nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

> students to know

> Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

> are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

> practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

> matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

> well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

> trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

> no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

> simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

> patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

> many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

> in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

> sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Richard,

Twenty five thousand still in practice or licensed. We have about 4 schools in

a half hour radius from me, move down towards Boston and there are a lot more.

One school that listed tuition cost online (most didn't) was just shy of about

$10K for a 13 month program. I just know that I have seen a lot of massage

therapists over the years whose bodies couldn't keep up with the physical demand

of the profession. Lots of them quit.

 

Sean

On Nov 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

> Sean

>

> The interesting thing here in Florida is that there are 25,000 LMTs and

> they have been abused by what some term " double taxation " . They must obtain

> an LMT license and THEN someone must pay for a massage therapy establishment

> license.

>

> Education in general in this country is turning into a bigger rip off than

> ever with these so called ONLINE Universities.

>

> Those interested in LMT in Florida can go to one of the few state

> (regionally accredited) truly voc-tech schools for about $1,200 for the full

six

> month course whereas the private night trade schools (not regiopnally

> accredited) cost $8,000 and up for the same prerequisite for licensing.

>

> Richard

>

>

> In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:47:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> sean writes:

>

> The one thing that I would like to see is a comparison of attrition rates

> across all fields. In NH, we are required to have a bachelor's degree to

> practice, so even if you went to an OM school that did not require the

> bachelor's you couldn't practice here. So, at least for us here, the bigger

> problem is the cost of education before you even get to OM school. it is a

> universal problem. I started in the sciences and attrition there was pretty

> high too. If we are purely talking about attrition, a shorter, cheaper

> degree program will not necessarily do the trick. Look at massage therapy.

> Tons of attrition. Anyway, education is universally expensive. It isn't

> just a problem in OM. All of this, though, has less to do with time spent

> in school and more to do with money.

>

> Sean

>

>

[Guest guest]

Much rather be a leader than a follower.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/2009 11:12:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

When enough " We's " got together, they formed the USA. It can be done.

Join us.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:46:46 -0500

Re: TCM - First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not

 

exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better

educated on

 

it and learn to act in a way that reflects this.

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247

27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

To change your email delivery settings, click,

and adjust

accordingly.

 

Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

requires prior permission from the author.

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

[Guest guest]

You might want to recheck your numbers for the DC profession. I sent the link

to my school's program.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:49:35 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

Its another one of those multi-tiered issues.

 

In some states YES ..more credits or a BS and in many states NO...nothing

 

more than 60 credits.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 10:25:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Where are you getting this info? The link to my chiro college has much

 

higher numbers. You can check this at

 

http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html

 

As this is a CCE issue, then other schools of chiropractic should be the

 

same. Not sure of what the MD have.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When enough " We's " got together, they formed the USA. It can be done. Join us.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:46:46 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not

 

exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on

 

it and learn to act in a way that reflects this.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do tell the reason you became an LAc?

Wanted to become like one of the cats?

 

R

 

 

In a message dated 11/28/2009 9:51:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

Good luck with that. Kind of like herding cats, the OM profession is.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Good luck with that. Kind of like herding cats, the OM profession is.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:35:10 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Much rather be a leader than a follower.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/2009 11:12:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

When enough " We's " got together, they formed the USA. It can be done.

 

Join us.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

acudoc11

 

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:46:46 -0500

 

Re: TCM - First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

 

 

WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

 

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

 

 

We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not

 

 

 

exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better

 

educated on

 

 

 

it and learn to act in a way that reflects this.

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

________

 

Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

 

http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247

 

27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

 

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

 

and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

 

To change your email delivery settings, click,

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

 

requires prior permission from the author.

 

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

 

necessary.

[Guest guest]

K,

The educational issue is rarely mentioned by those that want no change. I would

be curious as to what type of education or program these practitioners attended

and maybe area of the country. As there is so much variability in the

profession, this could be part of the communication issue that we face.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:58:50 -0800

Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I've leaned in the last few years of being out of school have been

 

immeasureable.

 

MDs, DCs and DOs, herbalists and nutritionalists all can share something

 

that is useful for us...

 

 

 

and that is outside of Chinese medicine. We didn't even touch the classics

 

in school

 

and that's like being a preacher without ever reading the bible.

 

 

 

Experience is the best teacher.

 

The Masters program only gives us a driver's license... there's so much more

 

to learn.

 

 

 

Here are a few specific things that are not taught well in the MS programs

 

that might be important for clinical practice:

 

 

 

reading x-rays... understanding metabolic processes in the body... reading

 

lab tests...

 

explaining how acupuncture works from biomedical research... small business

 

startup...

 

current pharmacology and drug-herb interactions... how to listen to the

 

heart and lung...

 

physical examination.....

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:57 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

> Z,

 

> There is a lot more out there then what we had in school. Greater depth

 

> and more cultural understanding are also important which is why many

 

> students spend some time (a month or more) in China treating patients.

 

> I have read responses by some DAOM students and graduates giving a very

 

> favorable opinion to their experience that has impacted their practices

 

> positively. Don't you think we should be considering their input before we

 

> pass judgement of worth?

 

>

 

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

> Chinese Medicine

 

> zaranski

 

> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 +0000

 

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> hey, Mike!

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think

 

> they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a

 

> matter of a respected title you desire?

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect

 

> from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each other?

 

> Good luck there!

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the

 

> answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, too)

 

> about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many complaining

 

> about how they feel they no longer control what they can do with patients

 

> because they must first get approval from the insurer (and this approval

 

> hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the decision of

 

> trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are controlled by

 

> accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of their patient.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such

 

> that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just temporarily

 

> relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), you will gain

 

> a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, people will be

 

> willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) and you will not

 

> need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who have insurance can

 

> submit paperwork from you (properly documented receipts) to their insurers

 

> and receive reimbursement for their out of pocket expenses. Those who have

 

> medical flex spending accounts or medical savings accounts can pay for your

 

> services with pre-tax dollars (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You

 

> can choose to adopt an alternative payment scale for those without ability

 

> to pay full price, its up to you.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an

 

> issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide

 

> adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide the

 

> training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with

 

> hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education

 

> (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is

 

> gained while still a student.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY at

 

> that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of

 

> patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical

 

> experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private

 

> clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed

 

> hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone

 

> treating) there.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have

 

> student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities

 

> for students to build valuable clinical experience.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010)

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

 

> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to

 

> understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is

 

> what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the

 

> technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the

 

> professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD.

 

> Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains

 

> we have made.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Chinese Medicine

 

>

 

> > jensmeister

 

>

 

> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000

 

>

 

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care

 

> provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what

 

> that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level

 

> that qualifies for a FPD.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as

 

> a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a

 

> requirement.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared

 

> patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to

 

> the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and

 

> you'll get through to the MD.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the

 

> table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight

 

> to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing

 

> it from a more elevated podium.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist

 

> with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do

 

> anything.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to

 

> transport our profession to the next level?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Respectfully

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@ wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > Jens

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see

 

> the

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > LAW -Practice Scope?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > wishing/hoping position.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40

 

> states

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > primary care providers.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT

 

> now

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER

 

> don't

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do

 

> what we

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > already do......which is functioning as a physician.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > Richard

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > jensmeister@ writes:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > This is so sad.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching

 

> critical

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals

 

> are

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting

 

> could

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to

 

> take

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be

 

> usurped

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > will be left wondering what happened.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their

 

> own

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get

 

> one. But

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > (Chinese Medicine ) , " Shantileigh "

 

> <shantileigh@sha> wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > ________

 

>

 

> > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\

T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

[Guest guest]

It is a long story and not too glamorous. Wanted to lead the cats to keep from

becoming lemmings.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Sat, 28 Nov 2009 12:50:45 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do tell the reason you became an LAc?

 

Wanted to become like one of the cats?

 

 

 

R

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/28/2009 9:51:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

Good luck with that. Kind of like herding cats, the OM profession is.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David T.....

 

I would think that the CA is just one group of folks who are opposed to

FPD.

There are more which have no direct connection to them but certainly join

in, in the opposition.

 

David M.......Hysteria? Retirement? All that can be asked is...are you

speaking personally about retiring?

 

The profession which is growing......are all the UNCATEGORIZED substitutes

who can under other names and probably other billing codes administer

acupuncture (dry needling, chiro puncture, medi puncture, etc).

 

At best the FPD will be no different than the DAOM.....exist in states

where the practitioners can be put under the ether.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/30/09 12:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

david writes:

 

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

primarily opposed to the FPD?

 

Respectfully,

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

Health without Drugs or Surgery

105 Tivoli Gardens

Peachtree City, GA 30269

770.780.9608

_info_ (info)

www.davidtoone.www

On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

 

> As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

> to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

> in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

> others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

> answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

> the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

> years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

> availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

> Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

> retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

> some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

> and embraces its availability.

> Dvid Molony

>

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

> <__ () > wrote:

>

> Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

> hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

> practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

> the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

> DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

> nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

> students to know

> Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

> are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

> practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

> matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

> well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

> trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

> no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

> simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

> patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

> many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

> in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

> sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture)

are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

 

 

Chinese Medicine

david

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

 

a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

 

primarily opposed to the FPD?

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

 

Health without Drugs or Surgery

 

105 Tivoli Gardens

 

Peachtree City, GA 30269

 

770.780.9608

 

info

 

www.davidtoone.com

 

On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

 

 

 

> As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

 

> to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

 

> in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

 

> others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

 

> answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

 

> the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

 

> years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

 

> availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

 

> Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

 

> retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

 

> some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

 

> and embraces its availability.

 

> Dvid Molony

 

>

 

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

 

> < wrote:

 

>

 

> Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

 

> hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

 

> practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

 

> the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

 

> DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

 

> nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

 

> students to know

 

> Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

 

> are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

 

> practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

 

> matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

 

> well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

 

> trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

 

> no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

 

> simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

 

> patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

 

> many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

 

> in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

 

> sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the link.

 

I think its very important that we all know that it is the Acupuncture

community, the one's who get active that present to ACAOM a curriculum and

objectives for the DAOM, and they review it and see if it meets their standards,

they do not create the curriculum. What has been created is based on those

people who decided to create it, if one wants to be involved in these matters

they need to take actions or others will direct these cirriculum.

 

I wonder if it is possible to have the existing requirements and curriculum

changed? Does anybody know.

 

thanks,

david

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Emily Konstan

<emilylists wrote:

>

>

> Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture)

are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> david

> Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

>

> a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

>

> primarily opposed to the FPD?

>

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

>

> David Toone, L.Ac.

>

> Health without Drugs or Surgery

>

> 105 Tivoli Gardens

>

> Peachtree City, GA 30269

>

> 770.780.9608

>

> info

>

> www.davidtoone.com

>

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

>

>

>

> > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

>

> > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

>

> > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

>

> > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

>

> > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

>

> > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

>

> > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

>

> > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

>

> > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

>

> > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

>

> > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

>

> > and embraces its availability.

>

> > Dvid Molony

>

> >

>

> > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

>

> > < wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

>

> > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

>

> > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

>

> > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

>

> > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

>

> > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

>

> > students to know

>

> > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

>

> > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

>

> > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

>

> > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

>

> > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

>

> > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

>

> > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

>

> > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

>

> > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

>

> > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

>

> > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

>

> > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

My proposal:

MASTERS DEGREE: TCM Theory and Acupuncture. 2 years.

 

DOCTORATE: Herbs, herbal pharmacology and formulas. 2 years.

 

Teach the QiGong and Tui Na the first two years. Or work it out however you

want. It ain't really rocket science, and 99% of people would take it all

the way through.

 

 

 

-

" singlewhip2001 " <singlewhip2001

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:54 AM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

> The Masters is just an entry level program, a starting point. I have seen

> the DAOM courses and have spoken with graduates and they have learned

> valuable knowledge, BUT it seems very lacking in the practice of

> Acupuncture, little if anything on Secondary Vessels and very narrow when

> it is, not much on the variety of clinical applications of Acupuncture, a

> narrow view. To utilize all the channels of Acupuncture, to be a more

> competent practitioner will require more study beyond the DAOM.

>

> regards,

> david

>

> Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>>

>>

>> Z,

>> There is a lot more out there then what we had in school. Greater depth

>> and more cultural understanding are also important which is why many

>> students spend some time (a month or more) in China treating patients.

>> I have read responses by some DAOM students and graduates giving a very

>> favorable opinion to their experience that has impacted their practices

>> positively. Don't you think we should be considering their input before

>> we pass judgement of worth?

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>> Chinese Medicine

>> zaranski

>> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 +0000

>> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> hey, Mike!

>>

>>

>>

>> What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think

>> they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a

>> matter of a respected title you desire?

>>

>>

>>

>> Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect

>> from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each

>> other? Good luck there!

>>

>>

>>

>> For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be

>> the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs,

>> too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many

>> complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do

>> with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and

>> this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the

>> decision of trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are

>> controlled by accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of

>> their patient.

>>

>>

>>

>> If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such

>> that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just

>> temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill),

>> you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services,

>> people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent)

>> and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who

>> have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented

>> receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of

>> pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or

>> medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars

>> (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an

>> alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price,

>> its up to you.

>>

>>

>>

>> Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an

>> issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide

>> adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide

>> the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with

>> hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education

>> (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is

>> gained while still a student.

>>

>>

>>

>> Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY

>> at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of

>> patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical

>> experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private

>> clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed

>> hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone

>> treating) there.

>>

>>

>>

>> Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have

>> student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities

>> for students to build valuable clinical experience.

>>

>>

>>

>> I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools.

>>

>>

>>

>> Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010)

>>

>>

>>

>> Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

>> <naturaldoc1@> wrote:

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to

>> > understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level

>> > doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be

>> > discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and

>> > if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need

>> > to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of

>> > this will only undermine the gains we have made.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>>

>> >

>>

>> > Chinese Medicine

>>

>> > jensmeister@

>>

>> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000

>>

>> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care

>> > provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand

>> > what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a

>> > level that qualifies for a FPD.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not

>> > as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree

>> > is a requirement.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a

>> > shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be

>> > talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are

>> > a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at

>> > the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight

>> > to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be

>> > doing it from a more elevated podium.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will

>> > coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is

>> > forced to do anything.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like

>> > to transport our profession to the next level?

>>

>> >

>>

>> > Respectfully

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@ wrote:

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > Jens

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see

>> > > the

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > LAW -Practice Scope?

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > wishing/hoping position.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40

>> > > states

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners

>> > > as

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > primary care providers.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT

>> > > now

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER

>> > > don't

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do

>> > > what we

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > already do......which is functioning as a physician.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > Richard

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > jensmeister@ writes:

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > This is so sad.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching

>> > > critical

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals

>> > > are

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting

>> > > could

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance

>> > > to take

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be

>> > > usurped

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and

>> > > we

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > will be left wondering what happened.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their

>> > > own

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get

>> > > one. But

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

>>

>> >

>>

>> > > (Chinese Medicine ) ,

>> > > " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote:

>>

>> >

>>

>> > >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

>>

>> > ________

>>

>> > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

>>

>> >

http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\

T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009

>>

>> >

>>

>> >

[Guest guest]

[i wonder if it is possible to have the existing requirements and curriculum

changed? Does anybody know.]

 

 

 

What a great question, David. You have an opportunity *right now* to express

your opinion about the First Professional Doctorate. You *can* create change!

If you don't want the " Acupuncture community " to dictate the curriculum and

objectives for the doctorate, if you disagree with what has been proposed, write

a letter. The deadline for any written/fax submissions to ACAOM is January

15th. Comments must be submitted via fax at 301-313-0912 or regular mail (ACAOM,

7501 Greenway Center Drive, Maryland Trade Center 3, Suite 760, Greenbelt, MD

20770). We recommend registered mail if you're snail mailing. Below is a

sample, to get you started...

 

 

 

ACAOM

Maryland Trade Center #3

7501 Greenway Center Drive, Suite 760

Greenbelt, MD 20770

 

RE: Practitioner of OM OPPOSED to a First-Professional Doctorate

 

DATE, 2009

 

To the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine,

 

As a practitioner of Oriental medicine, I am considered to be a key stakeholder

in the successful practice of acupuncture and Oriental medicine in this country.

I am opposed to the development of standards for and subsequent piloting of a

first professional doctorate in acupuncture and in Oriental medicine at this

time. While I am open to the idea of a doctorate for acupuncture and for

Oriental medicine, I do not believe that what is currently being considered is

amenable to all interested parties and that further conversation is needed. I

do believe that with an open dialogue, an outcome can be reached that benefits

not only those that have differing opinions on the doctorate issue, but the

patients they serve as well.

 

Sincerely,

 

NAME

NAME OF CLINIC

SIGNATURE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

singlewhip2001

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:23:46 +0000

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I think its very important that we all know that it is the Acupuncture

community, the one's who get active that present to ACAOM a curriculum and

objectives for the DAOM, and they review it and see if it meets their standards,

they do not create the curriculum. What has been created is based on those

people who decided to create it, if one wants to be involved in these matters

they need to take actions or others will direct these cirriculum.

 

I wonder if it is possible to have the existing requirements and curriculum

changed? Does anybody know.

 

thanks,

david

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Emily Konstan

<emilylists wrote:

>

>

> Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture)

are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> david

> Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

>

> a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

>

> primarily opposed to the FPD?

>

>

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

>

> David Toone, L.Ac.

>

> Health without Drugs or Surgery

>

> 105 Tivoli Gardens

>

> Peachtree City, GA 30269

>

> 770.780.9608

>

> info

>

> www.davidtoone.com

>

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

>

>

>

> > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

>

> > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

>

> > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

>

> > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

>

> > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

>

> > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

>

> > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

>

> > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

>

> > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

>

> > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

>

> > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

>

> > and embraces its availability.

>

> > Dvid Molony

>

> >

>

> > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

>

> > < wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

>

> > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

>

> > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

>

> > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

>

> > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

>

> > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

>

> > students to know

>

> > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

>

> > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

>

> > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

>

> > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

>

> > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

>

> > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

>

> > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

>

> > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

>

> > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

>

> > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

>

> > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

>

> > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm part of the acupuncture community and I am not opposed to it. I know many

others in the community that are also pro FPD. I think it would be good for the

community to have the FPD and I think the patients would also benefit. Not all

of us are opposed.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

emilylists

Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:52:34 -0500

RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture)

are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob

Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\

-professional-doctorate

 

Chinese Medicine

david

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it

 

a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones

 

primarily opposed to the FPD?

 

Respectfully,

 

David Toone, L.Ac.

 

Health without Drugs or Surgery

 

105 Tivoli Gardens

 

Peachtree City, GA 30269

 

770.780.9608

 

info

 

www.davidtoone.com

 

On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote:

 

> As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not

 

> to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers

 

> in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to

 

> others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the

 

> answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as

 

> the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10

 

> years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD

 

> availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd.

 

> Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be

 

> retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be

 

> some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows

 

> and embraces its availability.

 

> Dvid Molony

 

>

 

> On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman "

 

> < wrote:

 

>

 

> Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of

 

> hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed

 

> practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to

 

> the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves

 

> DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and

 

> nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required

 

> students to know

 

> Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it

 

> are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even

 

> practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a

 

> matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice

 

> well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The

 

> trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were

 

> no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he

 

> simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for

 

> patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of

 

> many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines

 

> in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this

 

> sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering.

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

What about the clinical time?

2 years is not enough for theory, diagnosis, acupuncture and clinical

practice.

2 years is enough for herbs/formulas (to get started anyway)

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

magisterium_magnum wrote:

 

>

>

> My proposal:

> MASTERS DEGREE: TCM Theory and Acupuncture. 2 years.

>

> DOCTORATE: Herbs, herbal pharmacology and formulas. 2 years.

>

> Teach the QiGong and Tui Na the first two years. Or work it out however you

>

> want. It ain't really rocket science, and 99% of people would take it all

> the way through.

>

>

> -

> " singlewhip2001 " <singlewhip2001<singlewhip2001%40>

> >

> To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> >

> Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:54 AM

> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

>

> > The Masters is just an entry level program, a starting point. I have seen

>

> > the DAOM courses and have spoken with graduates and they have learned

> > valuable knowledge, BUT it seems very lacking in the practice of

> > Acupuncture, little if anything on Secondary Vessels and very narrow when

>

> > it is, not much on the variety of clinical applications of Acupuncture, a

>

> > narrow view. To utilize all the channels of Acupuncture, to be a more

> > competent practitioner will require more study beyond the DAOM.

> >

> > regards,

> > david

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> mike Bowser

> > <naturaldoc1 wrote:

> >>

> >>

> >> Z,

> >> There is a lot more out there then what we had in school. Greater depth

> >> and more cultural understanding are also important which is why many

> >> students spend some time (a month or more) in China treating patients.

> >> I have read responses by some DAOM students and graduates giving a very

> >> favorable opinion to their experience that has impacted their practices

> >> positively. Don't you think we should be considering their input before

> >> we pass judgement of worth?

> >>

> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >> zaranski

> >> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 +0000

> >> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> hey, Mike!

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think

>

> >> they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a

>

> >> matter of a respected title you desire?

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect

>

> >> from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each

> >> other? Good luck there!

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be

> >> the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs,

> >> too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many

> >> complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do

> >> with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and

>

> >> this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the

> >> decision of trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are

> >> controlled by accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of

>

> >> their patient.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such

> >> that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just

> >> temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill),

>

> >> you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services,

> >> people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or

> equivalent)

> >> and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who

>

> >> have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented

> >> receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of

> >> pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or

> >> medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars

> >> (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an

> >> alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price,

> >> its up to you.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an

> >> issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide

> >> adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide

> >> the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated

> with

> >> hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education

> >> (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is

> >> gained while still a student.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY

>

> >> at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of

>

> >> patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical

> >> experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private

> >> clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed

> >> hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone

>

> >> treating) there.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have

> >> student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus

> opportunities

> >> for students to build valuable clinical experience.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac.

> (2010)

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> mike Bowser

> >> <naturaldoc1@> wrote:

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to

> >> > understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level

> >> > doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not

> be

> >> > discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and

> >> > if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need

> >> > to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of

> >> > this will only undermine the gains we have made.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >>

> >> > jensmeister@

> >>

> >> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000

> >>

> >> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care

> >> > provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand

> >> > what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a

>

> >> > level that qualifies for a FPD.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not

>

> >> > as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree

> >> > is a requirement.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a

> >> > shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll

> be

> >> > talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you

> are

> >> > a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at

> >> > the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to

> fight

> >> > to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be

> >> > doing it from a more elevated podium.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will

> >> > coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is

> >> > forced to do anything.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like

> >> > to transport our profession to the next level?

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > Respectfully

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> acudoc11@ wrote:

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > Jens

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see

>

> >> > > the

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > LAW -Practice Scope?

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > wishing/hoping position.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40

> >> > > states

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners

>

> >> > > as

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > primary care providers.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are

> NOT

> >> > > now

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE

> PROVIDER

> >> > > don't

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do

> >> > > what we

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > already do......which is functioning as a physician.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > Richard

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > jensmeister@ writes:

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > This is so sad.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching

> >> > > critical

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals

> >> > > are

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting

> >> > > could

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance

> >> > > to take

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!!

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be

> >> > > usurped

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and

> >> > > we

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > will be left wondering what happened.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!!

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their

> >> > > own

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get

> >> > > one. But

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. "

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > Jens Maassen L.Ac.

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

(Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>)

> ,

> >> > > " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote:

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> > ________

> >>

> >> > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.

> >>

> >> >

>

http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\

T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >

[Guest guest]

David

 

You know I didn't say that....that's just your spin.

 

As to a comprehensive education....ACAOM is not experienced as well

trained AOM practitioners to decide if or what such a comprehensive education

might be.

Their methods and people lack the depths of AOM.

 

The cart (w/o the horse) is running....desperately trying to catch up to

the horse (which was let out of the barn many years ago).

 

From a perspective of recognition the DAOM is a joke.

 

Appears that there are enough practitioners who did or are doing the DAOM

and they thought they were going to be the ONE & ONLY to use the doctor

title. Guess they are taking the DAOM for the wrong reasons. Maybe they are the

exception...but so far they have come out of the hole very ANGRY.

 

What kind of creation is a NON-PhD so-called-doctoral research degree?

Why not a PhD? Especially when the Masters is ALREADY the credit equivalent

of a PhD.

Its an oxymoron to call something doctoral and also be NON-PhD.

 

And the FPD...appears to be a scheme of the same order.

A first professional doctorate which will continue to be laughed.

 

Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment

costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect

that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the

FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a

treatment and that's what is wrong with this.

 

Anyway.....practitioners already appear to be dropping like flies not able

to make enough themselves to cover the already exorbitant costs of the

present Masters not to mention the DAOM.

 

This is a scheme of ALL education in the US today.

Bankrupt everyone.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/30/2009 9:03:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, _acudoc11_

(acudoc11) wrote:

 

At best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture.At best the

AP is no different than th

 

A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different.

 

The ACAOM is very specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education,

but education from the start with a view towards an OM doctor.

VERY different.

David Molony