RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

 

An important FACT that is not presently known or maybe ignored.

 

The AMAs current entrance requirement for med school is just slightly

higher (@ 90 credits) than the chiros (@ 60 credits) and acupuncturists (@ 60

credits).

 

So where is the AOM profession so out of sync with the rest of US

educational scheme?

 

Richard

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Now you are entering another discussion and what to do about the cottage

industry's controlling " English Duggan 5 National Orgs " especially the

testing domain.

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 10:59:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

johnkokko writes:

 

Yes.. you don't have to have a BS to get into med school,

but which med school would take you without a MCAT score over 26?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sean

 

This is the kind of Law/Rules which some (in the know) would say appear to

be UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

To have them STRICKEN one would need to sue in Federal Court and that costs

lots of money from controlled attorneys. Depends what the " system " wants

done in NH.

And the NH (Northern District) Federal Court does NOT have to follow what

the Federal Court did in the Southern District (Florida)....that's our

illustrious Federal court system.

 

It appears that the Naturopaths got to stick it to the LAc's in NH.

 

Hey...the old totem pole and you know what flows down hill.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/24/2009 6:34:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sean writes:

 

That is the case here in NH.

 

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXX/328-G/328-G-9.htm

 

V. Whoever, not being licensed or exempted as provided in this chapter,

shall advertise oneself or in any way hold oneself out as qualified to

practice acupuncture, or shall practice acupuncture, or whoever does so after

receiving notice that one's license has been revoked, and whoever, being

licensed as provided in this chapter, shall advertise or call oneself or allow

oneself to be advertised or called a physician or a doctor in such a way as

to imply that such credential relates to the provision of acupuncture

services, or use any physician's or doctor's insignia for such purposes shall

be

in violation of this chapter.

 

Sean

On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> " At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor

title. States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected

title or limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can

certainly mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card

and also have the suffix following your name.... "

>

> Hi Mike,

>

> What do you base this statement on?

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

---

 

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[Guest guest]

It is unfortunate that at the inception of licensing in the US the AOM

profession failed to have this kind of foresight. Instead we had the over

controlling financial interests of a few with the obvious blessings of the

" system " to side step mainstream for some 40 years.

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/24/2009 9:02:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

adividya writes:

 

 

 

 

Current masters degrees are less course time and depth than a

bachelor's in TCM in China.

 

DAOM programs seem to be much more on the integrative biomedicine path.

 

Still, after all of that, who internalizes the Nei Jing and the depth

of our medicine?

 

Masters programs barely skim the surface-- will another degree system

move any closer to that, or just further confine us deeper into the

Western medicine paradigm?

 

I believe the power latent within the community of practitioners of

Ancient Asian medicine is to be found in stepping up our understanding

of the subject in its authenticity, which lies in the 2500+ years of

Chinese medical literature and what remains of the authentic lineages

that have passed it on.

 

If any kind of doctoral degrees are a vehicle to bring us towards

that, wonderful. Otherwise, it's just more student debt and material

to forget after licensing exams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sean

 

Far from me to suggest the legal path and especially how crooked and

controlled it is.

I had my fill of legal battles with rigged attorneys.

That's why I said it depends on what the " system " wants in NH.

I was a big time novice in 1998 when I thought I/we did such a great job

with some legislative issues.

The Bills passed 100% in the Florida House and 100% in the Florida Senate.

And I was gloating....only to realize retrospectively that we were HAD.

What the system wants - it gives and what it wants to take away - it also

does.

As with TCM ........you got to get your fingers on the pulses.

You know the story about increasing rates is totally FALSE.

If anything AOM modalities would decrease rates and therein lies the scam.

Insurance companies primarily make their money on HIGH exorbitant premiums

by investments and not by saving on pay outs.

Its interesting that the NDs out smarted the DCs in NH.

Maybe that's who you might go to for a legislative effort.

Of course none of this is legal advice. LOL

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:01:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sean writes:

 

Richard,

I don't think anyone has the money or the heart to take on that fight here

in NH. We attempted to get a parity bill passed this year. It looked

good in the public meetings, but was shot down by the Commerce Committee. The

BC/BS lobbyist was the only one that showed up from the insurance

industry, he was, of course, against it. The Commerce Committee stated they

didn't

want to do anything that would increase insurance rates and place an undue

burden on small business. The BC/BS lobbyist frequently takes the head of

the Commerce Committee out to lunch, supposedly. I think we will probably

try it again sometime.

 

Naturopaths used to have to do the master's, but now they have added an

acupuncture component to their national exam. I don't recall the number of

hours they have to complete in OM to be able to sit for the OM component of

their boards.

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

And I would further the issues by going out on a limb (not really) that Ba

Gua Fa can be implemented just as easily (not instead of) acu-moxa therapy.

 

In this case I am in agreement with Bob Flaws.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:42:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

shantileigh writes:

 

[it is unfortunate that at the inception of licensing in the US the AOM

profession failed to have this kind of foresight. Instead we had the over

controlling financial interests of a few with the obvious blessings of the

" system " to side step mainstream for some 40 years.]

 

Along those lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the 1980s, we ma

de a mistake creating a single educational track for both acu-moxa therapy

and Chinese herbal medicine. Now, rather than compounding that mistake by

creating an even more time-consuming and expensive FPD, we should be

offering more acupuncture only courses, similar to the one recently proposed by

SIOM. Especially in these tough economic times (with their many long-term

uncertainties)Along those lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the

1980s, we made a mistake creating a single educational track for both

acu-moxa therapy and Chinese herbal medicine. Now, rather than compAlong those

lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the 1980s, we made a mistake

creating a single educational track for both acu-moxa therapy and Chinese

herbal medicine. Now, rather than compounding that mistake by creating an

even more time-consuming and expensive FPD, we should be offering more

acupuncture only courses,

si_http://www.bluepopphttp://www.http://www.bhttp://wwhttp://www.bluehttp://wwht\

tp://www.blhttp://ww_

(http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first-prof\

essional-doctorate)

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You got that right-on Sean.

The system WANTS to pay ridiculous amounts of money to MDs for failed

procedures.

It keeps the so-called healthcare (sick care) scam going and earning

profits on hi premiums.

Just follow the money.

No different than with the FPD.

Just follow the money.

The patients lose and the naive students get bilked out of lots of money.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:48:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sean writes:

 

No, I understood where you were coming from. I think I realized early on

it has less to do with how much was being spent by insurance, but who it was

being paid to. I do a lot of fertility treatment. Two couples I treated

recently got pregnant before they were able to start an IVF cycle. The

insurance co was just saved 20-40K. I don't win them all, but I win enough to

make a difference.

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The exact reason WHY when I had the opportunity to apprentice with Wu

Laoshi I did not look the gift horse in the eye and refuse. Such opportunities

do not arise often.

 

At best the night-trade-schools in Florida give a kindergarden look-see

into some usage of patents.....even

though they claim to teach 300 single herbs and 300 formulas. The ACAOM

program is rear-end-backwards trying to CRAM all herbs into the third year

while the students are themselves gearing up for the national exam.

 

I hear that my Alma Mata instructs their professors " that all 3rd yr

students PASS the herbal courses no matter what.....push them through " . Oh my

what would happened if they actually had to learn something. But then again

that's the problem with the merged program of acupuncture and materia

medica.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:42:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

shantileigh writes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[it is unfortunate that at the inception of licensing in the US the AOM

profession failed to have this kind of foresight. Instead we had the over

controlling financial interests of a few with the obvious blessings of the

" system " to side step mainstream for some 40 years.]

 

Along those lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the 1980s, we

made a mistake creating a single educational track for both acu-moxa therapy

and Chinese herbal medicine. Now, rather than compounding that mistake by

creating an even more time-consuming and expensive FPD, we should be

offering more acupuncture only courses, similar to the one recently proposed by

SIOM. Especially in these tough economic times (with their many long-term

uncertainties)Along those lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the

1980s, we made a mistake creating a single educational track for both

acu-moxa therapy and Chinese herbal medicine. Now, rather than compAlong those

lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the 1980s, we made a mistake

creating a single educational track for both acu-moxa therapy and Chinese

herbal medicine. Now, rather than compounding that mistake by creating an

even more time-consuming and expensive FPD, we should be offering more

acupuncture only courses,

si_http://www.bluepopphttp://www.http://www.bhttp://wwhttp://www.bluehttp://wwht\

tp://www.blhttp://ww_

(http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first-prof\

essional-doctorate)

 

________

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.

_http://clk.atdmt.http://clk.http://clkhttp://clk_

(http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/)

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

And this is what we have gotten....... due to the influence then and now of

the Five Element people.

 

That's not to say that Five Element doesn't work its just one of at least

twelve systems of diagnosis and treatment.

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:42:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

shantileigh writes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[it is unfortunate that at the inception of licensing in the US the AOM

profession failed to have this kind of foresight. Instead we had the over

controlling financial interests of a few with the obvious blessings of the

" system " to side step mainstream for some 40 years.]

 

Along those lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the 1980s, we

made a mistake creating a single educational track for both acu-moxa therapy

and Chinese herbal medicine. Now, rather than compounding that mistake by

creating an even more time-consuming and expensive FPD, we should be

offering more acupuncture only courses, similar to the one recently proposed by

SIOM. Especially in these tough economic times (with their many long-term

uncertainties)Along those lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the

1980s, we made a mistake creating a single educational track for both

acu-moxa therapy and Chinese herbal medicine. Now, rather than compAlong those

lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the 1980s, we made a mistake

creating a single educational track for both acu-moxa therapy and Chinese

herbal medicine. Now, rather than compounding that mistake by creating an

even more time-consuming and expensive FPD, we should be offering more

acupuncture only courses,

si_http://www.bluepopphttp://www.http://www.bhttp://wwhttp://www.bluehttp://wwht\

tp://www.blhttp://ww_

(http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first-prof\

essional-doctorate)

 

________

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.

_http://clk.atdmt.http://clk.http://clkhttp://clk_

(http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/)

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David

 

Isn't that what we ALREADY have from state to state with exception of a few

key states?

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:13:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

 

 

 

So you are saying that you wish to have an acupuncture technician level as

an assistant under the FPD fully trained folks? It is either that or under

MD's, DO's, ND's, or DC's. You are not willing to spend a few thousand

dollars and a year for freedom, not to mention better capability to treat

patients? You buy cheapy, you get cheapy.

Let students decide what it is they want. If the FPD does not make market

share, the program will die. It seems you don't even want to give it a

chance. I suspect in the end, there will be an acutech track, with less

requirements and rights, for those who wish to have the restrictions on their

license that we are bound to start experiencing as the nationalized healthcare

bureaucracy takes hold over the next decade and those with FPD's decide how

we are to practice.

That will inevitably be the choice we make in this coming year.

If you wish to do so, that is fine, but as an OM practitioner, I want to

be free to work with patients without a gatekeeper letting me know what I

can or cannot do. As an acutech, that is where we will be.

David Molony

 

On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:35:58 PM, " Jessica Feltz Wolfson "

<_shantileigh@shantileigh_ (shantileigh) > wrote:

 

I believe we should be training more acupuncture technicians who can bring

the benefits of acupuncture-I believe we should be training more

acupuncture tech

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If I get your drift correctly I would agree.

Lets throw in a few hours for Naturopathy and a few hours for Chiropractic

and OFF we go.

Makes sense to me.

But try to get the Queen Mother to go " tit for tat " .

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:25:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

I think it is only fair that we do the same with our training.

David Molony

On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:33:05 PM, _acudoc11_

(acudoc11) wrote:

 

Naturopaths used to have to do the master's, but now they have added an

acupuncture component to their national exam. I don't recall the number of

hours they have to complete in OM to be able to sit for the OM component

of

their boards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sean

 

The interesting thing here in Florida is that there are 25,000 LMTs and

they have been abused by what some term " double taxation " . They must obtain

an LMT license and THEN someone must pay for a massage therapy establishment

license.

 

Education in general in this country is turning into a bigger rip off than

ever with these so called ONLINE Universities.

 

Those interested in LMT in Florida can go to one of the few state

(regionally accredited) truly voc-tech schools for about $1,200 for the full six

month course whereas the private night trade schools (not regiopnally

accredited) cost $8,000 and up for the same prerequisite for licensing.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:47:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sean writes:

 

The one thing that I would like to see is a comparison of attrition rates

across all fields. In NH, we are required to have a bachelor's degree to

practice, so even if you went to an OM school that did not require the

bachelor's you couldn't practice here. So, at least for us here, the bigger

problem is the cost of education before you even get to OM school. it is a

universal problem. I started in the sciences and attrition there was pretty

high too. If we are purely talking about attrition, a shorter, cheaper

degree program will not necessarily do the trick. Look at massage therapy.

Tons of attrition. Anyway, education is universally expensive. It isn't

just a problem in OM. All of this, though, has less to do with time spent

in school and more to do with money.

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi K.,

 

This is exactly the type of feedback that ACAOM is looking for when you

write them your letter.

 

Benj

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

You don't need a 4 year degree to read Lao tze or even a BA or BS to become

a daoist priest, but it really helps to have those last 2 years of college

to be able to write a paper that compares Lao Tze's understanding of

" wu-wei " from Chuang Tze's, for instance.

The first 2 years of college are survey courses, meant to prepare one to

have the context for more in depth study later on. In the colleges in the

United States, with exception for Saint John's college and a few other small

private schools, in the first 2 years, you learn how to memorize information

and take tests, not create independent study projects, speak in front of a

group of people or write 20+ page research papers.

Does that sound familiar? The 1st 2 year college curriculum (or associates

degree) is really very similar to TCM schools around the country...

memorizing information and regurgitating them through multiple choice

tests.

A few months ago, we had a conversation about this with Z'ev.

Since we both teach at TCM schools, we are frustrated that students struggle

with writing even 2 page essays about topics of their choosing. How do we

expect to be called doctors, not technicians, unless we can teach ie..

" doctor " is latin for teacher.

 

So, the bearded guys could start a school with the 4 year BA/ BS as an

entrance requirement, while others can opt for the 2 year. No worries.

Happy Turkey day, unless you're non-American... then Happy Thursday.

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi all:

>

> --John-

>

> The requirements to get into TCM school should be more difficult, (4 year

> degree)

> ---

>

> Why in Lao-Tse's name should this be the case?!?! Although I know that,

> prior to gaining admittance to CM school, Li Shi Zhen obviously did have his

> bachelor's in ... english lit? Compsci? No, I know, Art in Medieval Europe.

>

> I thought we did here??!! Disillusionment after

> disillusionment. Next thing ya know we'll be making it a requirement for

> ethnic chinese Lao Yi to write their entrance exams in english, oh wait,

> we're already doing that in ontario.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

AOM obviously is not every other profession.

That was my point regarding the Queen Mother's influence. AOM in at least

the US and probably Canada etc was set up from the get-go as a side cottage

industry when it should have been set up in legit two year regionally

accredited colleges and then brought further along as the field developed.

To switch stream now is a bit late.

The damage has been done.

Instead of sliding into the mouth of the devil we need to back far away.

Stay free.

Maintain our own cash register.

Less regulations.

David I don;t see it as a SMALL portion of grads against the FPD.....more

like a HUGE portion of those still willing to stay in practice and help

their patients for reasonable fees.

If I haven't I will post a challenge response from NIH regarding Ba Gua Fa.

Basically they DO NOT evaluate research unless they FUND it.

Seems to me NIH is just another influenced rigged government org not on the

side of AOM.

As to Alumni.......well all I can respond to is how crappy my fellow

students have been treated by the money grubbing night-trade-schools in Florida.

So WHY would we support schools which did not and do not support us? You

know once the $50 g's is in their pockets - on to the next sucker.

 

As to NDs - now that's a huge joke.

They are NOWHERE.

They lost their battles in the 50's when the DCs helped knock them out.

And ever since it's been a down hill ride for them.

They have little pockets in a few states where they serve their purpose

against other CAM providers.

 

Hey David......when we formed the AOMNCC in 2003 our national membership

was probably MORE than the AAOM/AAAOM. But of course it was for FREE. LOL

And our Florida supporters are more than the other so-called State org.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 2:12:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

 

 

 

 

I thought we didn't have the FPD yet, like the other gatekeepers do.

Combine the lack of the FPD with the lack of self esteem generated by

working to graduate and exam out as quickly and cheaply as possible and its

concomitant lack of alumni support of schools, a professional organization

that few join and less volunteer for, and minimal professional donations to

research and scholarship, and we have coming to roost what that decision Bob

Flaws referred to by the schools not to start with a doctorate in the first

place.

 

EVERY other profession started with a doctorate and ramped up education in

steps to meet expanded responsibilities, but not us. Our schools at the

time didn't want to invest in the academic infrastructure. Well, now they do.

They finally see the writing on the wall, and now a small portion of our

grads want to kill the profession by relegating us to the equivalent of

Respiratory techs in education because they don't feel capable or don't wish to

have the responsibility of a more complete ( yes, this means costly & time

consuming too) education.

 

Well, if we had started out with a doctorate and ramped up education

responsibly as our scope dictated, we would be ahead of the ND's at the NIH and

at the federal level. We don't, but does that mean we shouldn't?

 

How many ND's call themselves acupuncturists when in reality they choose

to use their acupuncture training to get licensed in the first place? Few,

if any.

Their schools teach them to be professional, which includes support for

the alma mater, research organizations, professional organizations (state and

national), interaction with other FPD folks and the government, and of

course their patients.

Do they give any money or commit time to acu organizations? NO, they just

bled our work for licensure and scope in more states so they could get a

foothold for an ND license there. Smart. We can't blame them, except when

they pull this cheapo quicko national ND exam shortcut for acupuncture scope

like the DC's are doing as well.

We needed this in 1980, 1990, 2000, and need it ever more so now. I see

some of the schools trying, and they need our support. Write ACAOM and let

them know how much you see a need to have a FPD.

 

Dave Molony

 

On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:18:06 PM, _acudoc11_

(acudoc11) wrote:

 

David

 

Isn't that what we ALREADY have from state to state with exception of a

few

key states?

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:13:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

_acuman1_ (acuman1) writes:

 

So you are saying that you wish to have an acupuncture technician level

as

an assistant under the FPD fully trained folks? It is either that or under

MD's, DO's, ND's, or DC's. You are not willing to spend a few thousand

dollars and a year for freedom, not to mention better capability to treat

patients? You buy cheapy, you get cheapy.

Let students decide what it is they want. If the FPD does not make market

share, the program will die. It seems you don't even want to give it a

chance. I suspect in the end, there will be an acutech track, with less

requirements and rights, for those who wish to have the restrictions on

their

license that we are bound to start experiencing as the nationalized

healthcare

bureaucracy takes hold over the next decade and those with FPD's decide

how

we are to practice.

That will inevitably be the choice we make in this coming year.

If you wish to do so, that is fine, but as an OM practitioner, I want to

be free to work with patients without a gatekeeper letting me know what I

can or cannot do. As an acutech, that is where we will be.

David Molony

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes.. you don't have to have a BS to get into med school,

but which med school would take you without a MCAT score over 26?

 

 

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 7:47 AM, <acudoc11 wrote:

 

>

>

> Yehuda

>

> An important FACT that is not presently known or maybe ignored.

>

> The AMAs current entrance requirement for med school is just slightly

> higher (@ 90 credits) than the chiros (@ 60 credits) and acupuncturists (@

> 60

> credits).

>

> So where is the AOM profession so out of sync with the rest of US

> educational scheme?

>

> Richard

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Richard,

I don't think anyone has the money or the heart to take on that fight here in

NH. We attempted to get a parity bill passed this year. It looked good in the

public meetings, but was shot down by the Commerce Committee. The BC/BS

lobbyist was the only one that showed up from the insurance industry, he was, of

course, against it. The Commerce Committee stated they didn't want to do

anything that would increase insurance rates and place an undue burden on small

business. The BC/BS lobbyist frequently takes the head of the Commerce

Committee out to lunch, supposedly. I think we will probably try it again

sometime.

 

Naturopaths used to have to do the master's, but now they have added an

acupuncture component to their national exam. I don't recall the number of

hours they have to complete in OM to be able to sit for the OM component of

their boards.

 

Sean

On Nov 26, 2009, at 11:10 AM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

> Sean

>

> This is the kind of Law/Rules which some (in the know) would say appear to

> be UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

> To have them STRICKEN one would need to sue in Federal Court and that costs

> lots of money from controlled attorneys. Depends what the " system " wants

> done in NH.

> And the NH (Northern District) Federal Court does NOT have to follow what

> the Federal Court did in the Southern District (Florida)....that's our

> illustrious Federal court system.

>

> It appears that the Naturopaths got to stick it to the LAc's in NH.

>

> Hey...the old totem pole and you know what flows down hill.

>

> Richard

>

>

> In a message dated 11/24/2009 6:34:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> sean writes:

>

> That is the case here in NH.

>

> http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXX/328-G/328-G-9.htm

>

> V. Whoever, not being licensed or exempted as provided in this chapter,

> shall advertise oneself or in any way hold oneself out as qualified to

> practice acupuncture, or shall practice acupuncture, or whoever does so after

> receiving notice that one's license has been revoked, and whoever, being

> licensed as provided in this chapter, shall advertise or call oneself or allow

> oneself to be advertised or called a physician or a doctor in such a way as

> to imply that such credential relates to the provision of acupuncture

> services, or use any physician's or doctor's insignia for such purposes shall

be

> in violation of this chapter.

>

> Sean

> On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > " At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor

> title. States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected

> title or limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can

> certainly mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business

card

> and also have the suffix following your name.... "

> >

> > Hi Mike,

> >

> > What do you base this statement on?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

[it is unfortunate that at the inception of licensing in the US the AOM

profession failed to have this kind of foresight. Instead we had the over

controlling financial interests of a few with the obvious blessings of the

" system " to side step mainstream for some 40 years.]

 

 

 

Along those lines, these thoughts from Bob Flaws: " Back in the 1980s, we made a

mistake creating a single educational track for both acu-moxa therapy and

Chinese herbal medicine. Now, rather than compounding that mistake by creating

an even more time-consuming and expensive FPD, we should be offering more

acupuncture only courses, similar to the one recently proposed by SIOM.

Especially in these tough economic times (with their many long-term

uncertainties), we should not be driving up the hours and, therefore, tuition

required for professional entry. I believe we should be training more

acupuncture technicians who can bring the benefits of acupuncture-moxibustion to

a much broader segment of our society. We are not going to gain the financial

rewards nor the social status we desire by simply awarding our graduates a

doctoral degree. However, we can earn both of those two things if we really show

a large part of our society that acu-moxa therapy is affordable and effective

treatment. "

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first-profe\

ssional-doctorate

 

_______________

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Richard,

No, I understood where you were coming from. I think I realized early on it has

less to do with how much was being spent by insurance, but who it was being paid

to. I do a lot of fertility treatment. Two couples I treated recently got

pregnant before they were able to start an IVF cycle. The insurance co was just

saved 20-40K. I don't win them all, but I win enough to make a difference.

 

Sean

 

On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:33 PM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

> Sean

>

> Far from me to suggest the legal path and especially how crooked and

> controlled it is.

> I had my fill of legal battles with rigged attorneys.

> That's why I said it depends on what the " system " wants in NH.

> I was a big time novice in 1998 when I thought I/we did such a great job

> with some legislative issues.

> The Bills passed 100% in the Florida House and 100% in the Florida Senate.

> And I was gloating....only to realize retrospectively that we were HAD.

> What the system wants - it gives and what it wants to take away - it also

> does.

> As with TCM ........you got to get your fingers on the pulses.

> You know the story about increasing rates is totally FALSE.

> If anything AOM modalities would decrease rates and therein lies the scam.

> Insurance companies primarily make their money on HIGH exorbitant premiums

> by investments and not by saving on pay outs.

> Its interesting that the NDs out smarted the DCs in NH.

> Maybe that's who you might go to for a legislative effort.

> Of course none of this is legal advice. LOL

>

> Richard

>

>

> I

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

So you are saying that you wish to have an acupuncture technician level as an

assistant under the FPD fully trained folks? It is either that or under MD's,

DO's, ND's, or DC's. You are not willing to spend a few thousand dollars and a

year for freedom, not to mention better capability to treat patients? You buy

cheapy, you get cheapy. 

Let students decide what it is they want. If the FPD does not make market share,

the program will die. It seems you don't even want to give it a chance. I

suspect in the end, there will be an acutech track, with less requirements and

rights, for those who wish to have the restrictions on their license that we are

bound to start experiencing as the nationalized healthcare bureaucracy takes

hold over the next decade and those with FPD's decide how we are to practice.

That will inevitably be the choice we make in this coming year.

If you wish to do so, that is fine, but as an OM practitioner, I want to be free

to work with patients without a gatekeeper letting me know what I can or cannot

do. As an acutech, that is where we will be. 

David Molony

 

On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:35:58 PM, " Jessica Feltz Wolfson "

<shantileigh wrote:

 

 I believe we should be training more acupuncture technicians who can bring the

benefits of acupuncture-moxibustion to a much broader segment of our society.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think it is only fair that we do the same with our training.

David Molony

On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:33:05 PM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

Naturopaths used to have to do the master's, but now they have added an 

acupuncture component to their national exam. I don't recall the number of 

hours they have to complete in OM to be able to sit for the OM component of 

their boards. 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The one thing that I would like to see is a comparison of attrition rates across

all fields. In NH, we are required to have a bachelor's degree to practice, so

even if you went to an OM school that did not require the bachelor's you

couldn't practice here. So, at least for us here, the bigger problem is the

cost of education before you even get to OM school. it is a universal problem.

I started in the sciences and attrition there was pretty high too. If we are

purely talking about attrition, a shorter, cheaper degree program will not

necessarily do the trick. Look at massage therapy. Tons of attrition.

Anyway, education is universally expensive. It isn't just a problem in OM.

All of this, though, has less to do with time spent in school and more to do

with money.

 

Sean

On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:28 PM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

> If I get your drift correctly I would agree.

> Lets throw in a few hours for Naturopathy and a few hours for Chiropractic

> and OFF we go.

> Makes sense to me.

> But try to get the Queen Mother to go " tit for tat " .

> Richard

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:25:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> acuman1 writes:

>

> I think it is only fair that we do the same with our training.

> David Molony

> On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:33:05 PM, _acudoc11_

> (acudoc11) wrote:

>

> Naturopaths used to have to do the master's, but now they have added an

> acupuncture component to their national exam. I don't recall the number of

> hours they have to complete in OM to be able to sit for the OM component

> of

> their boards.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I thought we didn't have the FPD yet, like the other gatekeepers do. 

Combine the lack of the FPD with the lack of self esteem generated by working to

graduate and exam out as quickly and cheaply as possible and its concomitant

lack of alumni support of schools, a professional organization that few join and

less volunteer for, and minimal professional donations to research and

scholarship, and we have coming to roost what that decision Bob Flaws referred

to by the schools not to start with a doctorate in the first place.

 

EVERY other profession started with a doctorate and ramped up education in steps

to meet expanded responsibilities, but not us. Our schools at the time didn't

want to invest in the academic infrastructure. Well, now they do. They finally

see the writing on the wall, and now a small portion of our grads want to kill

the profession by relegating us to the equivalent of Respiratory techs in

education because they don't feel capable or don't wish to have the

responsibility of a more complete ( yes, this means costly & time consuming too)

education. 

 

Well, if we had started out with a doctorate and ramped up education responsibly

as our scope dictated, we would be ahead of the ND's at the NIH and at the

federal level. We don't, but does that mean we shouldn't?

 

How many ND's call themselves acupuncturists when in reality they choose to use

their acupuncture training to get licensed in the first place? Few, if any.

Their schools teach them to be professional, which includes support for the alma

mater, research organizations, professional organizations (state and national),

interaction with other FPD folks and the government, and of course their

patients.

Do they give any money or commit time to acu organizations? NO, they just bled

our work for licensure and scope in more states so they could get a foothold for

an ND license there. Smart. We can't blame them, except when they pull this

cheapo quicko national ND exam shortcut for acupuncture scope like the DC's are

doing as well.  

We needed this in 1980, 1990, 2000, and need it ever more so now. I see some of

the schools trying, and they need our support. Write ACAOM and let them know how

much you see a need to have a FPD.

 

 

Dave Molony

 

On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:18:06 PM, acudoc11 wrote:

 

David

 

Isn't that what we ALREADY have from state to state with exception of a few 

key states?

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:13:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 

acuman1 writes:

 

So you are saying that you wish to have an acupuncture technician level as 

an assistant under the FPD fully trained folks? It is either that or under 

MD's, DO's, ND's, or DC's. You are not willing to spend a few thousand 

dollars and a year for freedom, not to mention better capability to treat 

patients? You buy cheapy, you get cheapy. 

Let students decide what it is they want. If the FPD does not make market 

share, the program will die. It seems you don't even want to give it a 

chance. I suspect in the end, there will be an acutech track, with less 

requirements and rights, for those who wish to have the restrictions on their 

license that we are bound to start experiencing as the nationalized healthcare 

bureaucracy takes hold over the next decade and those with FPD's decide how 

we are to practice.

That will inevitably be the choice we make in this coming year.

If you wish to do so, that is fine, but as an OM practitioner, I want to 

be free to work with patients without a gatekeeper letting me know what I 

can or cannot do. As an acutech, that is where we will be. 

David Molony

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Here are a few specific things that are not taught well in the MS programs

> that might be important for clinical practice:

 

> reading x-rays... understanding metabolic processes in the body... reading

> lab tests... explaining how acupuncture works from biomedical research...

> small business

> startup... current pharmacology and drug-herb interactions... how to

> listen to the

> heart and lung... physical examination.....

 

Although some of what you mention was taught - though not in detail - at my

school, a more important point to me is that most of these things aren't

legal for me to do.

The scope of practice in my state consists of sticking needles in people.

Herbs are not in scope of practice, let alone western medicine.

 

A Masters degree is currently not required for entry level in the field.

Wouldn't that be the logical starting place, vs. jumping to FPD?

 

Wouldn't effort be better spent trying to educate the public that there is a

difference between a chiro or MD with 100 or so hours of training, vs. a

L.Ac.?

 

How about improving the current training in the schools, rather than require

more classes that might be poorly taught?

 

How about increasing scope of practice, to include herbs, for example, in

the states where this isn't in scope, (and therefore isn't covered by

malpractice insurance)? (Not to mention the states where it's not even legal

to do acupuncture.) How about insurance parity? These are things that would

help someone's practice.

 

I think that the doctoral degree makes sense for anyone who is going to

teach or be involved in research, but not for a practitioner who will not be

able to legally do anything more than acupuncture.

 

And, I think that specialty certification makes sense in certain areas, like

ABORM. We have the option of getting training in specility fields once we're

out of school, and are required to (and hopefully want to) increase our

knowledge through CEU classes and self-study.

 

The only ones I really see benefitting from the FPD would be the schools,

who could rake in more money as a result.

 

Jeri

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave,

 

Everything you are saying is completely reasonable and logical, and it works

perfectly say, in 1980 or 1990.  But now, 20-30 years later, we have a 2

ton gorilla in the room, and it's us, the many thousands of licensed

practitioners who have as much as 30 or more years of experience under their

belts.  I still have yet to hear a prudent transitional plan that levels the

playing field.  (Of course, I only speak of California, so those of you

elsewhere, forgive my ignorance and please enlighten me to

the contrary.)  Heretofore, every increasing  demand on new students, in

terms of hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed practitioners

to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to the point where  DOM's from

the early '80s can still call themselves DOM's, even if they only learned 1000

or so hours of acupuncture and nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the

education required students to know

Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it are

perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even practicing Chinese

herbal medicine without any training!  As a matter of fact, I had in school a

professor who had been in practice well over 10 years, and was a great

acupuncture technician.  The trouble was that when he took the California

state board, there were no herbs or formulas on it.  NO PROBLEM! Because

he was licensed, he simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas

for patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of many

other licensed practitioners who  sell their patients medicines in pill

form without having studied herbs.  I am disgusted by this sham, and

yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. 

 

But then again, going back to my original premise:  How can you not

grandfather in those of us who have learned our medicine well, and who have

continued to learn taking CEU courses and DAOMs?  How do you detemine who

gets by automatically, who gets by by passing a competency test, and who needs

to take additional courses to be qualified for the FPD?     

 

Dave, you may be right that we have no choice but to eventually go the route

of having a FPD.  But we're going to need the wisdom of a Solomon, a

Lao Zi or a Kong Fu Zi to make it fair and equitable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

acuman1 <acuman1

Chinese Medicine

Thu, November 26, 2009 11:11:21 AM

Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)

 

 

I thought we didn't have the FPD yet, like the other gatekeepers do. 

Combine the lack of the FPD with the lack of self esteem generated by working to

graduate and exam out as quickly and cheaply as possible and its concomitant

lack of alumni support of schools, a professional organization that few join and

less volunteer for, and minimal professional donations to research and

scholarship, and we have coming to roost what that decision Bob Flaws referred

to by the schools not to start with a doctorate in the first place.

 

EVERY other profession started with a doctorate and ramped up education in steps

to meet expanded responsibilities, but not us. Our schools at the time didn't

want to invest in the academic infrastructure. Well, now they do. They finally

see the writing on the wall, and now a small portion of our grads want to kill

the profession by relegating us to the equivalent of Respiratory techs in

education because they don't feel capable or don't wish to have the

responsibility of a more complete ( yes, this means costly & time consuming too)

education. 

 

Well, if we had started out with a doctorate and ramped up education responsibly

as our scope dictated, we would be ahead of the ND's at the NIH and at the

federal level. We don't, but does that mean we shouldn't?

 

How many ND's call themselves acupuncturists when in reality they choose to use

their acupuncture training to get licensed in the first place? Few, if any.

Their schools teach them to be professional, which includes support for the alma

mater, research organizations, professional organizations (state and national),

interaction with other FPD folks and the government, and of course their

patients.

Do they give any money or commit time to acu organizations? NO, they just bled

our work for licensure and scope in more states so they could get a foothold for

an ND license there. Smart. We can't blame them, except when they pull this

cheapo quicko national ND exam shortcut for acupuncture scope like the DC's are

doing as well.  

We needed this in 1980, 1990, 2000, and need it ever more so now. I see some of

the schools trying, and they need our support. Write ACAOM and let them know how

much you see a need to have a FPD.

 

Dave Molony

 

On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:18:06 PM, acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

 

David

 

Isn't that what we ALREADY have from state to state with exception of a few 

key states?

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:13:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 

acuman1 (AT) aol (DOT) com writes:

 

So you are saying that you wish to have an acupuncture technician level as 

an assistant under the FPD fully trained folks? It is either that or under 

MD's, DO's, ND's, or DC's. You are not willing to spend a few thousand 

dollars and a year for freedom, not to mention better capability to treat 

patients? You buy cheapy, you get cheapy. 

Let students decide what it is they want. If the FPD does not make market 

share, the program will die. It seems you don't even want to give it a 

chance. I suspect in the end, there will be an acutech track, with less 

requirements and rights, for those who wish to have the restrictions on their 

license that we are bound to start experiencing as the nationalized healthcare 

bureaucracy takes hold over the next decade and those with FPD's decide how 

we are to practice.

That will inevitably be the choice we make in this coming year.

If you wish to do so, that is fine, but as an OM practitioner, I want to 

be free to work with patients without a gatekeeper letting me know what I 

can or cannot do. As an acutech, that is where we will be. 

David Molony