Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 David That would be nice if ACAOM created the FPD for ONLY those states desiring it. But you know that won't be the case nor can it be. Keeping practitioners down? Mighty strange statement considering that in the majority of states the licensees are technicians? Another example of the cart before the horse! And WHY now after 40 years of holding down the profession? As to me.....personally I am neutral. It has to make sense from the real world and it doesn't. Just because people like to dream....that's very nice but why should unrealistic dreams wreak havoc on other practitioners and patients alike in terms of exorbitant added costs? I don;t believe that you have over 50% of licensees out there wanting an FPD. And the special interest cottage industry (night-trade-schools) don't need to get richer at practitioner/patients expense. Richard In a message dated 11/30/2009 8:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, acuman1 writes: If you don' t like a FPD, keep it so it isn't a requirement in your state and there will be schools that meet your needs teaching only acupuncture programs. Don' t work so hard to keep other people down when they want to better their capabilities from the start, unless you are afraid of choice? David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Or take a 100 hr Chiro course in acupuncture and off you go. OR as an MD/DO......they have no need for any education.....especially since they are super beings and can supervise a Medical Assistant doing acupuncture and for sure BILL for it. In a message dated 11/30/2009 8:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, acuman1 writes: Of course you don't need to have a comprehensive education! Take an acupuncture only education and read a book to prescribe herbs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Its funny how the folks who feel that there are too many acupuncturists already (those who are not doing well), somehow feel that having more education necessary in 10-20 years will hurt them or the profession. Mostly these folks are acupuncture only and dont' understand or don't want to understand the field of medicine they are part of more comprehensively. Bob Flaws? He does sell education and books for those who don' t feel they are fully trained, yes? Patent formulas to those without an OM herb certification? Of course you don't need to have a comprehensive education! Take an acupuncture only education and read a book to prescribe herbs! If you don' t like a FPD, keep it so it isn't a requirement in your state and there will be schools that meet your needs teaching only acupuncture programs. Don' t work so hard to keep other people down when they want to better their capabilities from the start, unless you are afraid of choice? David Molony On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52:34 PM, " Emily Konstan " <emilylists wrote: Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate To: Chinese Medicine david Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones primarily opposed to the FPD? Respectfully, David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, acudoc11 wrote: David M.......Hysteria? Retirement? All that can be asked is...are you speaking personally about retiring? Someday. The profession which is growing......are all the UNCATEGORIZED substitutes who can under other names and probably other billing codes administer acupuncture (dry needling, chiro puncture, medi puncture, etc). At best the FPD will be no different than the DAOM.....exist in states where the practitioners can be put under the ether. A t best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture....This is essentially your statement. A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different. The ACAOM is very specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education, but education from the start with a view towards an OM doctor. VERY different. David Molony Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi Benjamin The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED costs. This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.] And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have seen even the $50 G's for the Masters. Richard In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bdierauf writes: Hi Richard, What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students. Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 A little late to worry about weakening the profession. In a message dated 12/1/2009 8:30:52 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: This is getting more bizarre by the moment. So, what are your plans then? Should we continue to weaken our profession and give it away or should we start to fight back? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:31:32 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Or take a 100 hr Chiro course in acupuncture and off you go. OR as an MD/DO......they have no need for any education...OR as an MD/D since they are super beings and can supervise a Medical Assistant doing acupuncture and for sure BILL for it. ________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more. _http://www.microsofhttp://www.michttp://wwwhttp://www.mihttp://www. & <WBR>sl id & <WBR>media=<WBR>media=ae & <WBR>lis & <WBR>s & ocid=ocid=<WBRocid=<WBR>Pocid=<W BRocid=<WBR>Pocid=<WBRocid=_ (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid=1 & m\ edia=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & oci d=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I just gave you the factual data back in 1994 on the masters. The rest will just have to wait and see. In a message dated 12/1/2009 9:29:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well as I get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I want to be able to discuss costs with them. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Hi Benjamin The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED costs. This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.] And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have seen even the $50 G's for the Masters. Richard In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bdierauf writes: Hi Richard, What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students. Benjamin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid= 1 & media=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en -US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi Richard, What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students. Benjamin Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment > costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect > that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the > FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a > treatment and that's what is wrong with this. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I and student colleagues ARE the source. No place to look that up. You'll just have to take our word for it. Richard In a message dated 12/01/09 12:43:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, You gave some info but not any source that I can confirm. Is there a link that I can use? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Benjamin, question is will the FPD students be able to take the state/national licensing exam somewhere in the middle of their education? ie. in CA at 3000 hours? or will there be a new re-working of the hours for licensure? Much like being a doctor, but still in residency?... K On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:50 AM, bdierauf <bdierauf wrote: > > > Hi Richard, > > What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? > > The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many > schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will > increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is > incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have > any students. > > Benjamin > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > acudoc11 wrote: > > > Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment > > costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I > suspect > > that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for > the > > FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a > > treatment and that's what is wrong with this. > > > > > -- www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Benj, Nice to have some numbers, for a change, as there is a lot of misplaced hype. We should be asking ourselves if the slight increase is worth our time and energy. I would say, at this point that it is very doable and cost-effective. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine bdierauf Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:50:54 +0000 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Hi Richard, What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students. Benjamin Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment > costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect > that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the > FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a > treatment and that's what is wrong with this. > _______________ Windows Live Hotmail gives you a free,exclusive gift. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.aspx?ocid=P\ ID23879::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-ww:WM_IMHM_7:092009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 This is getting more bizarre by the moment. So, what are your plans then? Should we continue to weaken our profession and give it away or should we start to fight back? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:31:32 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Or take a 100 hr Chiro course in acupuncture and off you go. OR as an MD/DO......they have no need for any education.....especially since they are super beings and can supervise a Medical Assistant doing acupuncture and for sure BILL for it. _______________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid=1 & me\ dia=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_\ WIN_7secdemo:122009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 R, As you brought up the issue of practitioner education and judgement. What education should ACAOM have in order to improve things in our profession? Do you have a doctorate degree in OM? There are a lot of baseless claims being made but I would not say that we are currently in the know about what is going on at ACAOM, so why all this hype? What is the fear really all about (going back to school or ?)? Why the downer about education when it is one of the few ways that people can make a better life for themselves? Opinions are fine but maybe we should consider some facts like in Benjamin's article. If you disagree with them, fine, but adding in more hype is not equal to replacing of said facts. Continuing to talk about the horse is a waste of time, when we should catch it. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:29:43 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) David You know I didn't say that....that's just your spin. As to a comprehensive education....ACAOM is not experienced as well trained AOM practitioners to decide if or what such a comprehensive education might be. Their methods and people lack the depths of AOM. The cart (w/o the horse) is running....desperately trying to catch up to the horse (which was let out of the barn many years ago). From a perspective of recognition the DAOM is a joke. Appears that there are enough practitioners who did or are doing the DAOM and they thought they were going to be the ONE & ONLY to use the doctor title. Guess they are taking the DAOM for the wrong reasons. Maybe they are the exception...but so far they have come out of the hole very ANGRY. What kind of creation is a NON-PhD so-called-doctoral research degree? Why not a PhD? Especially when the Masters is ALREADY the credit equivalent of a PhD. Its an oxymoron to call something doctoral and also be NON-PhD. And the FPD...appears to be a scheme of the same order. A first professional doctorate which will continue to be laughed. Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a treatment and that's what is wrong with this. Anyway.....practitioners already appear to be dropping like flies not able to make enough themselves to cover the already exorbitant costs of the present Masters not to mention the DAOM. This is a scheme of ALL education in the US today. Bankrupt everyone. Richard In a message dated 11/30/2009 9:03:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, acuman1 writes: On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) wrote: At best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture.At best the AP is no different than th A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different. The ACAOM is very specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education, but education from the start with a view towards an OM doctor. VERY different. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 When I hear similar discussion it makes me wonder about our own unique educational experiences and how this has colored our judgement. As this is highly variable it can be our own source of statements reflecting upon our education. Today, these might actually be false. I would think that those practitioners that spend time teaching or working in our programs would have a better op to comment upon them. Part of being a doctor in any healthcare profession is being able to have a broad education balanced with some depth of learning. We should not be unique in this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acuman1 Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:02:41 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, acudoc11 wrote: David M.......Hysteria? Retirement? All that can be asked is...are you speaking personally about retiring? Someday. The profession which is growing......are all the UNCATEGORIZED substitutes who can under other names and probably other billing codes administer acupuncture (dry needling, chiro puncture, medi puncture, etc). At best the FPD will be no different than the DAOM.....exist in states where the practitioners can be put under the ether. A t best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture....This is essentially your statement. A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different. The ACAOM is very specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education, but education from the start with a view towards an OM doctor. VERY different. David Molony Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 It will be interesting to see how CA-approved programs, outside of CA, will deal with FPD education in their own states and with other programs. Will they reduce educational levels to compete with other local programs or will they remain consistent with future CA standards? I believe that CA will be moving on this FPD prior to most other states as the large Asian population is mostly for having it. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acuman1 Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:15:32 -0500 RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Its funny how the folks who feel that there are too many acupuncturists already (those who are not doing well), somehow feel that having more education necessary in 10-20 years will hurt them or the profession. Mostly these folks are acupuncture only and dont' understand or don't want to understand the field of medicine they are part of more comprehensively. Bob Flaws? He does sell education and books for those who don' t feel they are fully trained, yes? Patent formulas to those without an OM herb certification? Of course you don't need to have a comprehensive education! Take an acupuncture only education and read a book to prescribe herbs! If you don' t like a FPD, keep it so it isn't a requirement in your state and there will be schools that meet your needs teaching only acupuncture programs. Don' t work so hard to keep other people down when they want to better their capabilities from the start, unless you are afraid of choice? David Molony On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52:34 PM, " Emily Konstan " <emilylists wrote: Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate Chinese Medicine david Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones primarily opposed to the FPD? Respectfully, David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Richard, IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well as I get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I want to be able to discuss costs with them. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Hi Benjamin The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED costs. This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.] And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have seen even the $50 G's for the Masters. Richard In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bdierauf writes: Hi Richard, What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students. Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Richard, You gave some info but not any source that I can confirm. Is there a link that I can use? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:30:27 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I just gave you the factual data back in 1994 on the masters. The rest will just have to wait and see. In a message dated 12/1/2009 9:29:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well as I get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I want to be able to discuss costs with them. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Hi Benjamin The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED costs. This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.] And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have seen even the $50 G's for the Masters. Richard In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bdierauf writes: Hi Richard, What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students. Benjamin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid= 1 & media=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en -US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Richard, You gave some info but not any source that I can confirm. Is there a link that I can use? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:30:27 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I just gave you the factual data back in 1994 on the masters. The rest will just have to wait and see. In a message dated 12/1/2009 9:29:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, IS there some data on this $50- 100K amount? I would like to know as well as I get future student questions on costs related to the profession. I want to be able to discuss costs with them. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:31 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Hi Benjamin The concept of competitive market is not about lesser costs but INCREASED costs. This is the way education historically appears to work....if it doesn't cost every bit of $100,000 it won't be considered worth anything.] And by the way if there weren't any loans available you wouldn't have seen even the $50 G's for the Masters. Richard In a message dated 12/1/2009 7:27:40 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, bdierauf writes: Hi Richard, What methodology do use to come up with an additional $50-100K? The reality is that OM education is a highly competitive market, with many schools that are barely making it into the black. The idea that schools will increase tuition and $50-100K and make a killing with the FPD is incongruous. Any school that increased its tuition like that wouldn't have any students. Benjamin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec & slideid= 1 & media=aero-shake-7second & listid=1 & stop=1 & ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en -US:WWL_WIN_7secdemo:122009 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Emily, Thanks for the information. It just seems that if there is widespread, non-CAN opposition, they are pretty silent about the issue. I really appreciate the CAN position and I have learned a lot about the issue from the CAN folk's posts. I also admire CAN's mission of providing low cost acupuncture to otherwise under-served populations. This seems like the present level of education or even a lower level would serve CAN's objectives. I can say for myself that I wish that my education had been more comprehensive and the entry standards higher, so that we could have covered more ground and gone into more depth and I feel that the FPD will help do this. I read the blog you linked but it did not seem that Mr. Flaws was per se objecting to the FPD, but was objecting to this being the only route for acupuncture training. My understanding is that colleges would be able to keep their acupuncture only degree programs. Quoting Mr. Flaws: " first professional doctorate " (FPD) degree IF SUCH a degree was the only degree offered by our accredited schools and colleges. " (caps mine) It is also my understanding is that Bob Flaws is also a registered CAN member, so I would expect him to be in opposition at any rate. I don't see anything the precludes the CAN folks from keeping their program and I don't understand how adding a FPD is a slippery slope to destroying the entire profession as has been suggested. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Emily Konstan wrote: > > Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community > acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate > > Chinese Medicine > david > Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it > > a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones > > primarily opposed to the FPD? > > Respectfully, > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > Health without Drugs or Surgery > > 105 Tivoli Gardens > > Peachtree City, GA 30269 > > 770.780.9608 > > info > > www.davidtoone.com > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > > > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > > > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > > > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > > > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > > > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > > > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > > > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > > > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > > > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > > > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > > > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > > > and embraces its availability. > > > Dvid Molony > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > > > < wrote: > > > > > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > > > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > > > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > > > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > > > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > > > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > > > students to know > > > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > > > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > > > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > > > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > > > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > > > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > > > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > > > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > > > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > > > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > > > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > > > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 When the facts of this issue are not well understood, there can be great opportunity for misinterpretation and misdirection. I have also read many posts by Mr. Flaws on another site and consider that he is pretty neutral on this issue. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine david Tue, 1 Dec 2009 13:16:43 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Emily, Thanks for the information. It just seems that if there is widespread, non-CAN opposition, they are pretty silent about the issue. I really appreciate the CAN position and I have learned a lot about the issue from the CAN folk's posts. I also admire CAN's mission of providing low cost acupuncture to otherwise under-served populations. This seems like the present level of education or even a lower level would serve CAN's objectives. I can say for myself that I wish that my education had been more comprehensive and the entry standards higher, so that we could have covered more ground and gone into more depth and I feel that the FPD will help do this. I read the blog you linked but it did not seem that Mr. Flaws was per se objecting to the FPD, but was objecting to this being the only route for acupuncture training. My understanding is that colleges would be able to keep their acupuncture only degree programs. Quoting Mr. Flaws: " first professional doctorate " (FPD) degree IF SUCH a degree was the only degree offered by our accredited schools and colleges. " (caps mine) It is also my understanding is that Bob Flaws is also a registered CAN member, so I would expect him to be in opposition at any rate. I don't see anything the precludes the CAN folks from keeping their program and I don't understand how adding a FPD is a slippery slope to destroying the entire profession as has been suggested. David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Emily Konstan wrote: > > Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community > acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate > > Chinese Medicine > david > Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it > > a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones > > primarily opposed to the FPD? > > Respectfully, > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > Health without Drugs or Surgery > > 105 Tivoli Gardens > > Peachtree City, GA 30269 > > 770.780.9608 > > info > > www.davidtoone.com > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > > > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > > > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > > > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > > > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > > > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > > > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > > > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > > > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > > > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > > > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > > > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > > > and embraces its availability. > > > Dvid Molony > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > > > < wrote: > > > > > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > > > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > > > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > > > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > > > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > > > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > > > students to know > > > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > > > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > > > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > > > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > > > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > > > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > > > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > > > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > > > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > > > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > > > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > > > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Similar to other highly regarded medical fields; established Traditional (TCM) practitioners are now pushing for a First Professional Doctorate in Acupuncture. TCM was an illegal practice until 1976, when former California governor, Jerry Brown, signed new legislation. Though legal throughout the United States, the highest recognized level of education for TCM physicians is a master's degree. TCM is a system of corresponding paradigms that developed over thousands of years. New medical paradigms have been developed in the last 50 years. Not all systems fit together, but ubiquitous and trusted systems adapt enough to fit in the big medical puzzle that is considered modern. This modern system is not whole. The time is now to complete the system by adapting traditional theories to fit the accepted structure. This adaptation started 20 years ago, but has been stifled by legitimate concerns. Concerns on both sides are now limited and manageable. The business of caring has cost too much and we have entered a window of opportunity as health care is being reformed. If we close that window, future TCM practitioners will struggle and less will join our ranks. The reason that many graduates struggle, is that most have to become entrepreneurs to practice outside the accepted system. Many of these TCM practitioners have to charge high prices to maintain a basic practice. This is not ideal for practitioners or patients. One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests or sophisticated imaging. In an effort to elevate the profession, Traditional TCM proponents are using epistemological paradigms as a method to draw parallels with biomedicine; comparing the basic scientific components from which both practices were cultivated. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies, reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes to solve problems in practice. Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest for professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the approach and methods incorporated by established professions. By following this method, TCM can mainstream modern medicine and we practitioners will be hired by hospitals and the federal government by the hundreds and our profession will lead as it did thousands of years ago. Jennifer M. Williams, L.Ac. One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests or sophisticated imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies, reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992). Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest for professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the approach and methods incorporated by established professions. One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests or sophisticated imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies, reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992). Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest for professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the approach and methods incorporated by established professions. One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests or sophisticated imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies, reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992). Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest for professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the approach and methods incorporated by established professions. One of the major challenges of traditional medicine is the demand for scientific proof. Most biomedical diagnosis can be " proved " using lab tests or sophisticated imaging. Deriving from the tenants of interpretive epistemologies, reflection in action characterizes much of the intuitive, creative processes to solve problems in practice (Papell and Skolnik, 1992). Though this is how the discipline developed, TCM associations' current quest for professionalization uses the technical rationality of examining the approach and methods incorporated by established professions. acupuncture [acupuncture ] On Behalf Of Shantileigh Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:52 PM acupuncture acupuncture First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Has the First Professional Doctorate caught your attention yet? (This is different from the DAOM that many schools have already implemented.) The proposed FPD would eventually replace the existing First-Professional Masters as the entry-level degree for the acupuncture profession. Transitional programs would be needed for already graduated or practicing acupuncturists to upgrade their degree status. And new standards for the practice of acupuncture could lead to changes in existing practice laws. All of which translate into several different problems: .. High costs are already a barrier to entering AOM school for certain populations, including ethnic and racial minorities, and the poor. Diversity of practitioners impacts the diversity of populations served. Any increases in cost to students and practitioners are ultimately passed on to the public. .. Striving for status and legitimacy in the current medical system does not directly serve patients or communities. A new degree title does not create respect or recognition, jobs, or increase wages. .. An estimated 70% of acupuncturists are no longer practicing as their main source of income after 5 years. A new, more expensive degree does not address the causes for practice failure, and in fact creates more financial stress for new practitioners in the form of debt. .. The current master's level of education already produces safe and effective practitioners; there is no demonstrated need for a new degree. .. Programs for currently licensed practitioners to " upgrade " to an entry-level doctorate are unaccredited, and create unnecessary expenditure of time and money for existing practitioners. .. Creating jobs for acupuncturists will be more difficult if graduates have greater debt, and fewer graduates may result from an increase in costs to obtain a degree. Here is a great piece on what a chiropractor thinks of the proposed FPD for acupuncturists: http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/chiropractors-perspective-fp d It's very important to express your opposition right now. The ACAOM is trying to determine whether there is consensus within our profession for proceeding with a FPD. The deadline for any written/fax submissions to ACAOM is January 15th. Comments must be submitted via fax at 301-313-0912 or regular mail (ACAOM, 7501 Greenway Center Drive, Maryland Trade Center 3, Suite 760, Greenbelt, MD 20770). We recommend registered mail if you're snail mailing. It is highly recommended that you keep a copy of your letter if you are snail mailing. Here's a sample letter to get you started: ACAOM Maryland Trade Center #3 7501 Greenway Center Drive, Suite 760 Greenbelt, MD 20770 RE: Practitioner of OM OPPOSED to a First-Professional Doctorate DATE, 2009 To the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, As a practitioner of Oriental medicine, I am considered to be a key stakeholder in the successful practice of acupuncture and Oriental medicine in this country. I am opposed to the development of standards for and subsequent piloting of a first professional doctorate in acupuncture and in Oriental medicine at this time. While I am open to the idea of a doctorate for acupuncture and for Oriental medicine, I do not believe that what is currently being considered is amenable to all interested parties and that further conversation is needed. I do believe that with an open dialogue, an outcome can be reached that benefits not only those that have differing opinions on the doctorate issue, but the patients they serve as well. Sincerely, NAME NAME OF CLINIC SIGNATURE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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