Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 True, but the entrance competition for spots in Med school is fierce, and except for new or out of the country medical schools, applicants had better have exceptional grades and MCAT scores to get in. And once in, as I said, the course load is relentless. Do our school even look at our undergrad GPAs? no more than a passing glance. Are there any medical entrance exams? Nope!  So, IMO, we really can't compare our entrance process to theirs. What can we do?  At the very least, raise our entrance standards by at least requiring a Bachelor's degree.   ________________________________ " acudoc11 " <acudoc11 Chinese Medicine Thu, November 26, 2009 7:47:08 AM Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD)  Yehuda An important FACT that is not presently known or maybe ignored. The AMAs current entrance requirement for med school is just slightly higher (@ 90 credits) than the chiros (@ 60 credits) and acupuncturists (@ 60 credits). So where is the AOM profession so out of sync with the rest of US educational scheme? Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Respectfully disagree. WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on it and learn to act in a way that reflects this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Michael Its another one of those multi-tiered issues. In some states YES ..more credits or a BS and in many states NO...nothing more than 60 credits. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 10:25:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Where are you getting this info? The link to my chiro college has much higher numbers. You can check this at http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html As this is a CCE issue, then other schools of chiropractic should be the same. Not sure of what the MD have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Cheapie acupuncture already exists by others untrained. And when the fed Acup Bill passes ALL LAc's will be left out. And then you see REAL cheapie. When we supported (_www.aomnc.com_ (http://www.aomnc.com) ) the acupuncture bill is was conceptually written correctly but now my guess is that is will fail. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 11:32:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, acuman1 writes: and there will undoubtedly be some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows and embraces its availability. Dvid Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 At one point circa 1994 we had 20 acupuncture schools in Florida alone when there was around 50 nationwide. That was when we switching from the two year 1800 hour program to the 4 yr (36 month - 2800 hours) ACAOM/CCAOM accreditation. Now we have only six schools left. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 12:47:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sean writes: Richard, Twenty five thousand still in practice or licensed. We have about 4 schools in a half hour radius from me, move down towards Boston and there are a lot more. One school that listed tuition cost online (most didn't) was just shy of about $10K for a 13 month program. I just know that I have seen a lot of massage therapists over the years whose bodies couldn't keep up with the physical demand of the profession. Lots of them quit. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Richard, We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on it and learn to act in a way that reflects this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:33:05 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Sean Far from me to suggest the legal path and especially how crooked and controlled it is. I had my fill of legal battles with rigged attorneys. That's why I said it depends on what the " system " wants in NH. I was a big time novice in 1998 when I thought I/we did such a great job with some legislative issues. The Bills passed 100% in the Florida House and 100% in the Florida Senate. And I was gloating....only to realize retrospectively that we were HAD. What the system wants - it gives and what it wants to take away - it also does. As with TCM ........you got to get your fingers on the pulses. You know the story about increasing rates is totally FALSE. If anything AOM modalities would decrease rates and therein lies the scam. Insurance companies primarily make their money on HIGH exorbitant premiums by investments and not by saving on pay outs. Its interesting that the NDs out smarted the DCs in NH. Maybe that's who you might go to for a legislative effort. Of course none of this is legal advice. LOL Richard In a message dated 11/26/2009 12:01:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sean writes: Richard, I don't think anyone has the money or the heart to take on that fight here in NH. We attempted to get a parity bill passed this year. It looked good in the public meetings, but was shot down by the Commerce Committee. The BC/BS lobbyist was the only one that showed up from the insurance industry, he was, of course, against it. The Commerce Committee stated they didn't want to do anything that would increase insurance rates and place an undue burden on small business. The BC/BS lobbyist frequently takes the head of the Commerce Committee out to lunch, supposedly. I think we will probably try it again sometime. Naturopaths used to have to do the master's, but now they have added an acupuncture component to their national exam. I don't recall the number of hours they have to complete in OM to be able to sit for the OM component of their boards. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Richard, Where are you getting this info? The link to my chiro college has much higher numbers. You can check this at http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html As this is a CCE issue, then other schools of chiropractic should be the same. Not sure of what the MD have. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:47:08 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Yehuda An important FACT that is not presently known or maybe ignored. The AMAs current entrance requirement for med school is just slightly higher (@ 90 credits) than the chiros (@ 60 credits) and acupuncturists (@ 60 credits). So where is the AOM profession so out of sync with the rest of US educational scheme? Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows and embraces its availability. Dvid Molony On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " < wrote: Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required students to know Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones primarily opposed to the FPD? Respectfully, David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > and embraces its availability. > Dvid Molony > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > < wrote: > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > students to know > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Richard, Twenty five thousand still in practice or licensed. We have about 4 schools in a half hour radius from me, move down towards Boston and there are a lot more. One school that listed tuition cost online (most didn't) was just shy of about $10K for a 13 month program. I just know that I have seen a lot of massage therapists over the years whose bodies couldn't keep up with the physical demand of the profession. Lots of them quit. Sean On Nov 26, 2009, at 2:15 PM, acudoc11 wrote: > Sean > > The interesting thing here in Florida is that there are 25,000 LMTs and > they have been abused by what some term " double taxation " . They must obtain > an LMT license and THEN someone must pay for a massage therapy establishment > license. > > Education in general in this country is turning into a bigger rip off than > ever with these so called ONLINE Universities. > > Those interested in LMT in Florida can go to one of the few state > (regionally accredited) truly voc-tech schools for about $1,200 for the full six > month course whereas the private night trade schools (not regiopnally > accredited) cost $8,000 and up for the same prerequisite for licensing. > > Richard > > > In a message dated 11/26/2009 1:47:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sean writes: > > The one thing that I would like to see is a comparison of attrition rates > across all fields. In NH, we are required to have a bachelor's degree to > practice, so even if you went to an OM school that did not require the > bachelor's you couldn't practice here. So, at least for us here, the bigger > problem is the cost of education before you even get to OM school. it is a > universal problem. I started in the sciences and attrition there was pretty > high too. If we are purely talking about attrition, a shorter, cheaper > degree program will not necessarily do the trick. Look at massage therapy. > Tons of attrition. Anyway, education is universally expensive. It isn't > just a problem in OM. All of this, though, has less to do with time spent > in school and more to do with money. > > Sean > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Much rather be a leader than a follower. Richard In a message dated 11/27/2009 11:12:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: When enough " We's " got together, they formed the USA. It can be done. Join us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:46:46 -0500 Re: TCM - First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Respectfully disagree. WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on it and learn to act in a way that reflects this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247 27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 You might want to recheck your numbers for the DC profession. I sent the link to my school's program. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:49:35 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Michael Its another one of those multi-tiered issues. In some states YES ..more credits or a BS and in many states NO...nothing more than 60 credits. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 10:25:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Where are you getting this info? The link to my chiro college has much higher numbers. You can check this at http://www.nwhealth.edu/admit/require/chiro.html As this is a CCE issue, then other schools of chiropractic should be the same. Not sure of what the MD have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 When enough " We's " got together, they formed the USA. It can be done. Join us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:46:46 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Respectfully disagree. WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on it and learn to act in a way that reflects this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Do tell the reason you became an LAc? Wanted to become like one of the cats? R In a message dated 11/28/2009 9:51:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Good luck with that. Kind of like herding cats, the OM profession is. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Good luck with that. Kind of like herding cats, the OM profession is. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:35:10 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Much rather be a leader than a follower. Richard In a message dated 11/27/2009 11:12:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: When enough " We's " got together, they formed the USA. It can be done. Join us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:46:46 -0500 Re: TCM - First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Respectfully disagree. WE the peolple are not one of the 8 to 13 families that run the world. Richard In a message dated 11/27/09 9:58:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, We are the system, the govt, etc. The nebulous we referred to does not exist as outside of our reaches. We simply need to become better educated on it and learn to act in a way that reflects this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247 27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 K, The educational issue is rarely mentioned by those that want no change. I would be curious as to what type of education or program these practitioners attended and maybe area of the country. As there is so much variability in the profession, this could be part of the communication issue that we face. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:58:50 -0800 Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) What I've leaned in the last few years of being out of school have been immeasureable. MDs, DCs and DOs, herbalists and nutritionalists all can share something that is useful for us... and that is outside of Chinese medicine. We didn't even touch the classics in school and that's like being a preacher without ever reading the bible. Experience is the best teacher. The Masters program only gives us a driver's license... there's so much more to learn. Here are a few specific things that are not taught well in the MS programs that might be important for clinical practice: reading x-rays... understanding metabolic processes in the body... reading lab tests... explaining how acupuncture works from biomedical research... small business startup... current pharmacology and drug-herb interactions... how to listen to the heart and lung... physical examination..... K On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 8:57 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > Z, > There is a lot more out there then what we had in school. Greater depth > and more cultural understanding are also important which is why many > students spend some time (a month or more) in China treating patients. > I have read responses by some DAOM students and graduates giving a very > favorable opinion to their experience that has impacted their practices > positively. Don't you think we should be considering their input before we > pass judgement of worth? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > zaranski > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 +0000 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hey, Mike! > > > > What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think > they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a > matter of a respected title you desire? > > > > Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect > from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each other? > Good luck there! > > > > For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the > answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, too) > about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many complaining > about how they feel they no longer control what they can do with patients > because they must first get approval from the insurer (and this approval > hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the decision of > trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are controlled by > accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of their patient. > > > > If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such > that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just temporarily > relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), you will gain > a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, people will be > willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) and you will not > need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who have insurance can > submit paperwork from you (properly documented receipts) to their insurers > and receive reimbursement for their out of pocket expenses. Those who have > medical flex spending accounts or medical savings accounts can pay for your > services with pre-tax dollars (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You > can choose to adopt an alternative payment scale for those without ability > to pay full price, its up to you. > > > > Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an > issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide > adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide the > training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with > hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education > (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is > gained while still a student. > > > > Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY at > that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of > patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical > experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private > clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed > hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone > treating) there. > > > > Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have > student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities > for students to build valuable clinical experience. > > > > I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools. > > > > Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010) > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > > > > > > > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to > understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is > what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the > technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the > professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD. > Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains > we have made. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > jensmeister > > > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care > provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what > that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level > that qualifies for a FPD. > > > > > > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as > a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a > requirement. > > > > > > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared > patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to > the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and > you'll get through to the MD. > > > > > > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the > table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. > > > > > > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight > to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing > it from a more elevated podium. > > > > > > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist > with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do > anything. > > > > > > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to > transport our profession to the next level? > > > > > > Respectfully > > > > > > > > > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jens > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see > the > > > > > > > LAW -Practice Scope? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a > > > > > > > wishing/hoping position. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 > states > > > > > > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as > > > > > > > primary care providers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT > now > > > > > > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER > don't > > > > > > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do > what we > > > > > > > already do......which is functioning as a physician. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > > > > > > jensmeister@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so sad. > > > > > > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching > critical > > > > > > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals > are > > > > > > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting > could > > > > > > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. > > > > > > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to > take > > > > > > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! > > > > > > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be > usurped > > > > > > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we > > > > > > > will be left wondering what happened. > > > > > > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! > > > > > > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their > own > > > > > > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get > one. But > > > > > > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ > > > > > > > (Chinese Medicine ) , " Shantileigh " > <shantileigh@sha> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 It is a long story and not too glamorous. Wanted to lead the cats to keep from becoming lemmings. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Sat, 28 Nov 2009 12:50:45 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Do tell the reason you became an LAc? Wanted to become like one of the cats? R In a message dated 11/28/2009 9:51:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Good luck with that. Kind of like herding cats, the OM profession is. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 David T..... I would think that the CA is just one group of folks who are opposed to FPD. There are more which have no direct connection to them but certainly join in, in the opposition. David M.......Hysteria? Retirement? All that can be asked is...are you speaking personally about retiring? The profession which is growing......are all the UNCATEGORIZED substitutes who can under other names and probably other billing codes administer acupuncture (dry needling, chiro puncture, medi puncture, etc). At best the FPD will be no different than the DAOM.....exist in states where the practitioners can be put under the ether. Richard In a message dated 11/30/09 12:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david writes: I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones primarily opposed to the FPD? Respectfully, David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 _info_ (info) www.davidtoone.www On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > and embraces its availability. > Dvid Molony > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > <__ () > wrote: > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > students to know > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate Chinese Medicine david Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones primarily opposed to the FPD? Respectfully, David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > and embraces its availability. > Dvid Molony > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > < wrote: > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > students to know > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Thanks for the link. I think its very important that we all know that it is the Acupuncture community, the one's who get active that present to ACAOM a curriculum and objectives for the DAOM, and they review it and see if it meets their standards, they do not create the curriculum. What has been created is based on those people who decided to create it, if one wants to be involved in these matters they need to take actions or others will direct these cirriculum. I wonder if it is possible to have the existing requirements and curriculum changed? Does anybody know. thanks, david Chinese Medicine , Emily Konstan <emilylists wrote: > > > Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate > > > Chinese Medicine > david > Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it > > a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones > > primarily opposed to the FPD? > > > > Respectfully, > > > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > Health without Drugs or Surgery > > 105 Tivoli Gardens > > Peachtree City, GA 30269 > > 770.780.9608 > > info > > www.davidtoone.com > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > > > > > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > > > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > > > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > > > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > > > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > > > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > > > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > > > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > > > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > > > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > > > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > > > and embraces its availability. > > > Dvid Molony > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > > > < wrote: > > > > > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > > > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > > > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > > > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > > > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > > > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > > > students to know > > > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > > > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > > > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > > > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > > > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > > > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > > > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > > > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > > > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > > > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > > > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > > > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 My proposal: MASTERS DEGREE: TCM Theory and Acupuncture. 2 years. DOCTORATE: Herbs, herbal pharmacology and formulas. 2 years. Teach the QiGong and Tui Na the first two years. Or work it out however you want. It ain't really rocket science, and 99% of people would take it all the way through. - " singlewhip2001 " <singlewhip2001 <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:54 AM Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > The Masters is just an entry level program, a starting point. I have seen > the DAOM courses and have spoken with graduates and they have learned > valuable knowledge, BUT it seems very lacking in the practice of > Acupuncture, little if anything on Secondary Vessels and very narrow when > it is, not much on the variety of clinical applications of Acupuncture, a > narrow view. To utilize all the channels of Acupuncture, to be a more > competent practitioner will require more study beyond the DAOM. > > regards, > david > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > <naturaldoc1 wrote: >> >> >> Z, >> There is a lot more out there then what we had in school. Greater depth >> and more cultural understanding are also important which is why many >> students spend some time (a month or more) in China treating patients. >> I have read responses by some DAOM students and graduates giving a very >> favorable opinion to their experience that has impacted their practices >> positively. Don't you think we should be considering their input before >> we pass judgement of worth? >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> Chinese Medicine >> zaranski >> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 +0000 >> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> hey, Mike! >> >> >> >> What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think >> they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a >> matter of a respected title you desire? >> >> >> >> Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect >> from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each >> other? Good luck there! >> >> >> >> For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be >> the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, >> too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many >> complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do >> with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and >> this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the >> decision of trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are >> controlled by accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of >> their patient. >> >> >> >> If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such >> that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just >> temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), >> you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, >> people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) >> and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who >> have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented >> receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of >> pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or >> medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars >> (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an >> alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price, >> its up to you. >> >> >> >> Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an >> issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide >> adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide >> the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with >> hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education >> (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is >> gained while still a student. >> >> >> >> Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY >> at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of >> patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical >> experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private >> clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed >> hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone >> treating) there. >> >> >> >> Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have >> student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities >> for students to build valuable clinical experience. >> >> >> >> I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools. >> >> >> >> Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010) >> >> >> >> Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser >> <naturaldoc1@> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to >> > understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level >> > doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be >> > discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and >> > if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need >> > to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of >> > this will only undermine the gains we have made. >> >> > >> >> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> >> > >> >> > Chinese Medicine >> >> > jensmeister@ >> >> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 >> >> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care >> > provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand >> > what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a >> > level that qualifies for a FPD. >> >> > >> >> > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not >> > as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree >> > is a requirement. >> >> > >> >> > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a >> > shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be >> > talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are >> > a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD. >> >> > >> >> > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at >> > the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. >> >> > >> >> > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight >> > to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be >> > doing it from a more elevated podium. >> >> > >> >> > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will >> > coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is >> > forced to do anything. >> >> > >> >> > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like >> > to transport our profession to the next level? >> >> > >> >> > Respectfully >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Jens Maassen L.Ac. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@ wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Jens >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see >> > > the >> >> > >> >> > > LAW -Practice Scope? >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a >> >> > >> >> > > wishing/hoping position. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 >> > > states >> >> > >> >> > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners >> > > as >> >> > >> >> > > primary care providers. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT >> > > now >> >> > >> >> > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER >> > > don't >> >> > >> >> > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do >> > > what we >> >> > >> >> > > already do......which is functioning as a physician. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Richard >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> >> > >> >> > > jensmeister@ writes: >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > This is so sad. >> >> > >> >> > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching >> > > critical >> >> > >> >> > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals >> > > are >> >> > >> >> > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting >> > > could >> >> > >> >> > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. >> >> > >> >> > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance >> > > to take >> >> > >> >> > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! >> >> > >> >> > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be >> > > usurped >> >> > >> >> > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and >> > > we >> >> > >> >> > > will be left wondering what happened. >> >> > >> >> > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! >> >> > >> >> > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their >> > > own >> >> > >> >> > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get >> > > one. But >> >> > >> >> > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. >> >> > >> >> > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ >> >> > >> >> > > (Chinese Medicine ) , >> > > " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ________ >> >> > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. >> >> > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 >> >> > >> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 [i wonder if it is possible to have the existing requirements and curriculum changed? Does anybody know.] What a great question, David. You have an opportunity *right now* to express your opinion about the First Professional Doctorate. You *can* create change! If you don't want the " Acupuncture community " to dictate the curriculum and objectives for the doctorate, if you disagree with what has been proposed, write a letter. The deadline for any written/fax submissions to ACAOM is January 15th. Comments must be submitted via fax at 301-313-0912 or regular mail (ACAOM, 7501 Greenway Center Drive, Maryland Trade Center 3, Suite 760, Greenbelt, MD 20770). We recommend registered mail if you're snail mailing. Below is a sample, to get you started... ACAOM Maryland Trade Center #3 7501 Greenway Center Drive, Suite 760 Greenbelt, MD 20770 RE: Practitioner of OM OPPOSED to a First-Professional Doctorate DATE, 2009 To the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, As a practitioner of Oriental medicine, I am considered to be a key stakeholder in the successful practice of acupuncture and Oriental medicine in this country. I am opposed to the development of standards for and subsequent piloting of a first professional doctorate in acupuncture and in Oriental medicine at this time. While I am open to the idea of a doctorate for acupuncture and for Oriental medicine, I do not believe that what is currently being considered is amenable to all interested parties and that further conversation is needed. I do believe that with an open dialogue, an outcome can be reached that benefits not only those that have differing opinions on the doctorate issue, but the patients they serve as well. Sincerely, NAME NAME OF CLINIC SIGNATURE Chinese Medicine singlewhip2001 Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:23:46 +0000 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Thanks for the link. I think its very important that we all know that it is the Acupuncture community, the one's who get active that present to ACAOM a curriculum and objectives for the DAOM, and they review it and see if it meets their standards, they do not create the curriculum. What has been created is based on those people who decided to create it, if one wants to be involved in these matters they need to take actions or others will direct these cirriculum. I wonder if it is possible to have the existing requirements and curriculum changed? Does anybody know. thanks, david Chinese Medicine , Emily Konstan <emilylists wrote: > > > Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate > > > Chinese Medicine > david > Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it > > a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones > > primarily opposed to the FPD? > > > > Respectfully, > > > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > Health without Drugs or Surgery > > 105 Tivoli Gardens > > Peachtree City, GA 30269 > > 770.780.9608 > > info > > www.davidtoone.com > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > > > > > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > > > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > > > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > > > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > > > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > > > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > > > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > > > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > > > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > > > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > > > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > > > and embraces its availability. > > > Dvid Molony > > > > > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > > > < wrote: > > > > > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > > > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > > > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > > > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > > > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > > > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > > > students to know > > > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > > > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > > > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > > > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > > > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > > > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > > > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > > > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > > > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > > > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > > > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > > > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 I'm part of the acupuncture community and I am not opposed to it. I know many others in the community that are also pro FPD. I think it would be good for the community to have the FPD and I think the patients would also benefit. Not all of us are opposed. Thank you. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Traditional Medicine emilylists Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:52:34 -0500 RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Plenty of my friends in private-room practice (i.e. not community acupuncture) are also opposed to the FPD. So is Bob Flaws:http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/10/29/thoughts-on-first\ -professional-doctorate Chinese Medicine david Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:20:47 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I have been very appreciative of the discourse about this issue. Is it a fair statement that the Community Acupuncture folks are the ones primarily opposed to the FPD? Respectfully, David Toone, L.Ac. Health without Drugs or Surgery 105 Tivoli Gardens Peachtree City, GA 30269 770.780.9608 info www.davidtoone.com On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:31 AM, acuman1 wrote: > As in Conventional medicine, malpractice and warning from boards not > to exceed ones ability (ethics?) will have to keep the grandfathers > in line until they retire. Many patents are merely foods compared to > others and especially prescription formulations. Retirement is the > answer and it is coming to a time when old folks are doing so, as > the evolutionary changes occur. Don' t forget, this FPD will take 10 > years until the first ones graduate, much less when it becomes FPD > availability in every school. The hysteria about the FPD is absurd. > Most of those who feel it is not what they would want will be > retired before it takes any effect, and there will undoubtedly be > some sort of cheapie acupuncture available as the profession grows > and embraces its availability. > Dvid Molony > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 1:47:27 AM, " yehuda frischman " > < wrote: > > Heretofore, every increasing demand on new students, in terms of > hours and courses of study, has allowed already licensed > practitioners to grandfather in, maintaining their status quo, to > the point where DOM's from the early '80s can still call themselves > DOM's, even if they only learned 1000 or so hours of acupuncture and > nothing of herbs or Chinese medicine. When the education required > students to know > Herbs, formulas, etc, those who knew and still know nothing of it > are perfectly acceptable in continuing their practice, and even > practicing Chinese herbal medicine without any training! As a > matter of fact, I had in school a professor who had been in practice > well over 10 years, and was a great acupuncture technician. The > trouble was that when he took the California state board, there were > no herbs or formulas on it. NO PROBLEM! Because he was licensed, he > simply took out the Bensky formula book, and wrote formulas for > patients, based upon symptoms and western complaints! I also know of > many other licensed practitioners who sell their patients medicines > in pill form without having studied herbs. I am disgusted by this > sham, and yet that's one of the dark consequences of grandfathering. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 What about the clinical time? 2 years is not enough for theory, diagnosis, acupuncture and clinical practice. 2 years is enough for herbs/formulas (to get started anyway) K On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > My proposal: > MASTERS DEGREE: TCM Theory and Acupuncture. 2 years. > > DOCTORATE: Herbs, herbal pharmacology and formulas. 2 years. > > Teach the QiGong and Tui Na the first two years. Or work it out however you > > want. It ain't really rocket science, and 99% of people would take it all > the way through. > > > - > " singlewhip2001 " <singlewhip2001<singlewhip2001%40> > > > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:54 AM > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > The Masters is just an entry level program, a starting point. I have seen > > > the DAOM courses and have spoken with graduates and they have learned > > valuable knowledge, BUT it seems very lacking in the practice of > > Acupuncture, little if anything on Secondary Vessels and very narrow when > > > it is, not much on the variety of clinical applications of Acupuncture, a > > > narrow view. To utilize all the channels of Acupuncture, to be a more > > competent practitioner will require more study beyond the DAOM. > > > > regards, > > david > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > mike Bowser > > <naturaldoc1 wrote: > >> > >> > >> Z, > >> There is a lot more out there then what we had in school. Greater depth > >> and more cultural understanding are also important which is why many > >> students spend some time (a month or more) in China treating patients. > >> I have read responses by some DAOM students and graduates giving a very > >> favorable opinion to their experience that has impacted their practices > >> positively. Don't you think we should be considering their input before > >> we pass judgement of worth? > >> > >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > >> To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > >> zaranski > >> Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 +0000 > >> Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> hey, Mike! > >> > >> > >> > >> What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think > > >> they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a > > >> matter of a respected title you desire? > >> > >> > >> > >> Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect > > >> from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each > >> other? Good luck there! > >> > >> > >> > >> For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be > >> the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, > >> too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many > >> complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do > >> with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and > > >> this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the > >> decision of trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are > >> controlled by accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of > > >> their patient. > >> > >> > >> > >> If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such > >> that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just > >> temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), > > >> you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, > >> people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or > equivalent) > >> and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who > > >> have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented > >> receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of > >> pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or > >> medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars > >> (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an > >> alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price, > >> its up to you. > >> > >> > >> > >> Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an > >> issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide > >> adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide > >> the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated > with > >> hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education > >> (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is > >> gained while still a student. > >> > >> > >> > >> Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY > > >> at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of > > >> patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical > >> experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private > >> clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed > >> hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone > > >> treating) there. > >> > >> > >> > >> Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have > >> student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus > opportunities > >> for students to build valuable clinical experience. > >> > >> > >> > >> I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools. > >> > >> > >> > >> Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. > (2010) > >> > >> > >> > >> --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > mike Bowser > >> <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to > >> > understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level > >> > doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not > be > >> > discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and > >> > if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need > >> > to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of > >> > this will only undermine the gains we have made. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > >> > >> > > >> > >> > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > >> > >> > jensmeister@ > >> > >> > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 > >> > >> > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care > >> > provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand > >> > what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a > > >> > level that qualifies for a FPD. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not > > >> > as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree > >> > is a requirement. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a > >> > shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll > be > >> > talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you > are > >> > a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at > >> > the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to > fight > >> > to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be > >> > doing it from a more elevated podium. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will > >> > coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is > >> > forced to do anything. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like > >> > to transport our profession to the next level? > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Respectfully > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > acudoc11@ wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Jens > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see > > >> > > the > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > LAW -Practice Scope? > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > wishing/hoping position. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 > >> > > states > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners > > >> > > as > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > primary care providers. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are > NOT > >> > > now > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE > PROVIDER > >> > > don't > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do > >> > > what we > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > already do......which is functioning as a physician. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Richard > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > jensmeister@ writes: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > This is so sad. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching > >> > > critical > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals > >> > > are > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting > >> > > could > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance > >> > > to take > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be > >> > > usurped > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and > >> > > we > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > will be left wondering what happened. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their > >> > > own > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get > >> > > one. But > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > (Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>) > , > >> > > " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > ________ > >> > >> > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > >> > >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 David You know I didn't say that....that's just your spin. As to a comprehensive education....ACAOM is not experienced as well trained AOM practitioners to decide if or what such a comprehensive education might be. Their methods and people lack the depths of AOM. The cart (w/o the horse) is running....desperately trying to catch up to the horse (which was let out of the barn many years ago). From a perspective of recognition the DAOM is a joke. Appears that there are enough practitioners who did or are doing the DAOM and they thought they were going to be the ONE & ONLY to use the doctor title. Guess they are taking the DAOM for the wrong reasons. Maybe they are the exception...but so far they have come out of the hole very ANGRY. What kind of creation is a NON-PhD so-called-doctoral research degree? Why not a PhD? Especially when the Masters is ALREADY the credit equivalent of a PhD. Its an oxymoron to call something doctoral and also be NON-PhD. And the FPD...appears to be a scheme of the same order. A first professional doctorate which will continue to be laughed. Benjamin Dierauf's ONLY $50,00 to $8,000 and pennies added to treatment costs.....would be very nice..but appears to be wishful dreaming. I suspect that the $50,000+ for a Masters will turn into $100,000 to $150,000 for the FPD and this will translate into substantial increases in the cost of a treatment and that's what is wrong with this. Anyway.....practitioners already appear to be dropping like flies not able to make enough themselves to cover the already exorbitant costs of the present Masters not to mention the DAOM. This is a scheme of ALL education in the US today. Bankrupt everyone. Richard In a message dated 11/30/2009 9:03:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, acuman1 writes: On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23:08 PM, _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) wrote: At best the AP is no different than the DC doing acupuncture.At best the AP is no different than th A comprehensive education versus an add on are very different. The ACAOM is very specific that the goal is not about DAOM type education, but education from the start with a view towards an OM doctor. VERY different. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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