Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 A First-Professional-Doctorate would REPLACE our current First-Professional-Masters degree. The master's level degree would cease to exist. Here are some common myths about the FPD: 1. A FPD WILL RAISE THE STANDARD OF EDUCATION The main assumption layered into this myth is that the current level of education is deficient in some way. Those who support an increase in educational hours for entry-level, and a new degree title claim that because the new programs will involve more integrative medical training, acupuncture will become more accepted by western medical practitioners, facilities, and reimbursers. This simply is not true. What is true is that a new-entry level doctorate (FPD) will raise the cost and time involved to earn this degree. The educational effects, if any, are yet to be measured or evaluated, and the conclusion that more education means more jobs or earnings or even a better education for graduates is unfounded. 2. FPD WILL MAKE MORE JOBS FOR ACUPUNCTURISTS Currently there are very few jobs for licensed acupuncturists, outside of teaching in acupuncture programs. Data on the actual incomes of acupuncturists is scarce and misleading, and a large percentage of licensed acupuncturists stop practicing in the first 5 years. Although bio-medicine is starting to become interested in AOM there will be no sudden increase in the demand for acupuncturists, even with a new degree title or a year more of education focused on bio-medicine. No one outside of the profession will take much notice or have much invested in what degree title and acupuncturist has. Even research jobs will not become available to entry-level doctorate graduates, as these programs are not academic doctorates intended to make a significant academic contribution to the field (like a PhD.) Entry-level doctorates like entry-level masters degrees, provide the basic training necessary to begin practicing. 3. STAKEHOLDERS OF THE PROFESSION HAVE REACHED CONSENSUS REGARDING THE DEVELOPMENT OF STANDARDS FOR AND SUBSEQUENT PILOTING OF A FIRST PROFESSIONAL DOCTORATE IN ACUPUNCTURE AND IN ORIENTAL MEDICINE, IN ANTICIPATION OF MAKING IT THE NEW ENTRY-LEVEL DEGREE The following groups of stakeholders have not been adequately addressed: 1. Current AOM patients 2. Employers of acupuncturists 3. Stakeholders in communities having limited access to acupuncture because of affordability, lack of AOM care-facilities in these places, and lack of practitioners from and serving these communities All of the surveys conducted by the large organization of the profession have shown disagreement about changing the entry-level degree for the profession. Terms like “widely accepted” and consensus are not clear. 4. AS A PROFESSION, AOM HAS A CLEAR VISION FOR IT’S FUTURE ROLES IN THE HEALTHCARE A vision for our profession, or any other healthcare field, needs to be tied to core values such as access, affordability, patient care, and the creation of stable, sustainable delivery system. The profession is, and has long been, divided about the means to uphold these most basic core values. Like bio-medicine, professional values for AOM have the potential to become weakened by the costly, bureaucratic, and sometimes greed driven elements of current delivery systems. As a nation we are struggling to envision and re-structure our healthcare system. AOM, like it or not, still remains on the edges of that system, with less than 5% of the population even seeking AOM services. From this vantage point, however, we can better see and navigate our way to a more equitable and sustainable means of providing our medicine to the people. We can also choose to structure training and education in AOM to reflect and promote social justice, and to realistically account for economic realities for all the people we can potentially serve with our care and services. 5. ACUPUNCTURE IS LIKE PHYSICAL THERAPY, OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY, PHARMACY, OR NURSING PT, OT, Pharm. and nursing all have their foundations in the principles of bio- medicine, which are at the core of the medical system that supports these professions. Acupuncture is fundamentally different, and though it’s modalities and theories can be practiced along side those of bio-medicine, the differences at the core of the two medicines cannot be merged. There are literally thousands and thousands of clinical jobs in PT, OT, Pharm. and nursing that graduates need only apply for. There are very few jobs like this in acupuncture—maybe a few dozen. Most acupuncturists must also be entrepreneurs. If acupuncture were truly like these professions, and was poised on the brink of becoming wildly accepted by the mainstream, there would need to be shorter degree programs to address the shortage of acupuncturists. 6. FPD PROGRAMS AREN’T GOING TO COST MORE THAN THE CURRENT MASTER’S LEVEL PROGRAMS Yes they will and here’s why: having faculty with higher academic degrees requires higher salaries; FPD programs will require larger libraries, more labs and clinic sites, more administrative oversight, more evaluation, etc. All of these things will cost the student more. The existing master’s degree is already fairly expensive and burdens graduates with debt for years after graduation. An FPD would further increase debt burden for students. 7. HAVING AN FPD AS THE ENTRY LEVEL REQUIREMENT WILL ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE TO THE PROFESSION What will attract new people to the profession is affordable, quality, education and sustainable, stable jobs. One supporter of a new entry-level degree speculated that black and Hispanic people are not generally entrepreneurial, and therefore a new degree title in acupuncture would attract students from these greatly under-represented groups to the profession, because the new degree will create jobs. This thinking is fantasy at best and racist at worse. 8. EVERYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY LICENSED WILL BE GRANDFATHERED IN AND WILL AUTOMATICALLY RECEIVE THE NEW “DOCTOR” DEGREE TITLE Those currently in practice with master’s degree or pre-master’s degree certificates will be give the option to complete a “transitional” or “post- professional” degree. These programs will be virtually un-supervised and un-evaluated simply due to a lack of resources (since a new entry-level degree would be the priority for these resources.) It is highly unlikely that the professional organizations would accredit post-professional or transitional degree programs, due to cost and low demand. Those seeking to “update” to an entry-level doctorate would bear the expense of another year of school (approximately $18,000 in tuition), travel to and from such programs, and loss of work while completing such a program. State lawmakers look to professional organizations and certifying agencies to set the standards of education. If the FPD became the entry-level degree, some states would change their laws to reflect this. Without strong advocacy and representation practitioners with master’s level or non-degree certificate educations (like all of our old teachers) could be legislated out of practice. 9. ACUPUNCTURISTS ARE PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS In a few states, like New Mexico and California, acupuncturists are in the letter of the law called primary care. New Mexico suffers from an overall lack of medical professionals and so acupuncturists have been asked to help out. In California there has been a lot of confusion regarding the role of AOM practitioners. In the legal intent section of the California licensing law LAc. are " primary care professionals " in the field of AOM. This is much better explained in all of it's complexity inLitle Hoover Commission report on the subject found at http://www.lhc.ca.gov/studies/175/report175.pdf . Nowhere in the regulations of the legislation are LAc. defined as " primary care practitioners. In NM acupuncturists, due to an aggressive AOM lobby, can order diagnostic tests like x-rays and blood work, and can prescribe a limited number of drugs, and do injection therapies. These two examples of acupuncturists as primary care are repeatedly paraded as a call to the entire profession to assume roles and responsibilities that a majority of practitioners do not want, nor are qualified to have. For those practitioners desiring a place in the integrated care setting, the post-graduate DAOM degree is an opportunity to gain the proficiencies necessary to make this leap. To require this leap as a next step for all present and future AOM practitioners would be a great detriment to AOM’s potential to reach hundreds of millions more patients. Acupuncture and OM needs to be promoted for what it is: a simple, inexpensive, treatment for almost anything, that reduces stress, and prevents illness. As our medicine has changed in time and with cultural contact with the west, we bear different responsibilities. Our greatest benefit to others is currently in the simple and in expensive way that acupuncture provides relief for almost any condition, and in particular conditions worsened by stress. If we prioritize the need to be seen as “equals” with bio-medical professionals, we cannot prioritize the needs of our patients. 10. A DOCTOR TITLE FOR AOM PRACTITIONERS IS NEEDED TO HELP THE PUBLIC UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS WE DO At present there are at least 5 degree titles for acupuncturists (MTCM, MAc., MAOM, DAOM, DOM—technically those with DOM certificates do not actually have a degree called DOM) and almost as many license titles (LAc., CAc.-WI, DAc.-RI, AP-FL, DOM-NM). If you find this confusing, imagine how the general public would feel, or a prospective employer or non-acupuncturist colleague. We can best help the public to understand what it is we do by delivering treatments directly to them. _______________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants & form=MFESRP & publ=WLHMTAG & crea=TEXT_MFES\ RP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Usage of any designation must pass your state's licensing boards approval or you might be in violation of false advertising (ethical violation) and subject to reprimand. CA has set a legal precedent whereby they will accept some doctorate programs but not the so-called diploma mill schools. You must mention the educational field in advertising as well. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:18:19 -0800 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Mike, So.. those with a DAOM degree can not legally call themselves a doctor? What would be the case with the FDP degree? How would Asian medicine practitioners get that right to call themselves a doctor? K On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:15 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > Y and others, > There is some mixing of terminology here that is confusing. First, the > programs that are in acupuncture-only are required to be at least 1905 hours > while OM is required to be at least 2625 hours in length according to ACAOM. > The CA standards for OM are higher (3000 hours) and CA has no > acupuncture-only programs, by law. A 2100 hour program would not qualify to > be OM and therefore would not qualify a graduate entrance into a DAOM, based > upon hours and subjects. > As the DAOMs, include herbs, some have required students to take more hours > prior to being allowed entry. Currently there are no Doctorates in > Acupuncture, so a graduate of one of the acupuncture-only programs must be > additionally trained in Chinese herbs from an acceptable program of study > prior to entrance into a DAOM. They must be at a similar level of education > before they will be allowed in. > At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor title. > States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected title > or limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can certainly > mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and > also have the suffix following your name. I have seen others doing this in > the past with the older OMD titles in CA. > This all goes back to the CA acu profession vs the rest of the country and > how we each see our profession. We still have those that want us to remain > as a cottage industry and ignorant of western science. You cannot have > things both ways. We are starting to see this change as pressure is being > put upon the decision makers to make us a legit doctoring profession. I > believe that a doctorate in our profession can go a long ways to add to a > master's education, which is why they are becoming more popular. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:29:20 -0800 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't see what's wrong with the current state of affairs: > > > > 1. That the licensure and right to practice is regulated by the states, > and that licensure is predicated upon graduating from an ACAOM accredited > Master's program. > > 2. Should a licensed practitioner seek a more advanced level of education, > there is the DAOM option. As we have spoken of, most DAOM programs are 2 > years, DAOM's learn academics and clinical skills not necessarily > available to Master's students , and are entitled to call themselves > doctors. In the networking world in which we live and work, that title > should definitely mean greater referrals from other medical professionals > and higher income. What else (such as greater accessability to patients in a > hospital setting, for example) remains to be seen, but personally, I have > been willing to take the chance based upon the potential benefit. There is > no question that I am a better practitioner having nearly completed my first > of 2 years. > > > > The only problems that I see in the current state of affairs, are the > following, and from what I understand they are being resolved: > > 1. I believe that Master's students should be required to have a > Bachelor's degree in order to attend. > > 2. I believe that greater selectivity should go into the admissions > process, and entrance should not be automatic. > > 3. I believe that Master's programs should be 4 full years, should have a > much more rigorous Western Science component and should have greater > accountability for their clinical internships. Mine was a joke, and the > amount of patients that I saw was certainly inadequate to properly prepare > me for clinical practice. > > The schools really need to make a greater effort to promote their clinics > for the benefit of interns. > > > > Please explain to me, therefore, what would be the advantage of an > all-inclusive, first professional doctorate?What is wrong with giving a > student the option that they currently have of either going 4 years, getting > a masters, and being no less of a professional as a MSW, or MPT? Or if the > student chooses, let them continue for 2 more years and get their DAOM? > Again, though, I believe that it is our responsibility to properly promote > and define just what we are, what a DAOM is, as the MDs, DOs and DCs have > defined themselves. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > <johnkokko > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, November 23, 2009 10:13:08 PM > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education.. > > > > In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your Masters, > > which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you > > attended, > > for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours. > > > > Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for > > entrance. > > > > The FDP should streamline the process. > > One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles, > > entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a > > Chinese medicine practitioner. > > > > Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD, > AP.... > > > > Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you > > can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can. > > > > Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400... > > > > There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are confused > > about what we do and what our training entails. > > > > K > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, MercuriusTrismegistus < > > magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law. > > > What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or > > > extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though. > > > > > > > > > - > > > " stephenwoodley " <learntcm <learntcm%40fastmail.fm>> > > > <Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > > > > Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > Mercurius wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees > > > > when we > > > > started. > > > > > > > > Stephen: > > > > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM... > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen WoodleyLAc > > > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and > > > > love email again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Michael Your quoting of constitutional law is incomplete. States have police powers but NOT when they step on Constitutional Rights and therein lies a prohibition of the states on individuals presenting/advertising Commercial Free Speech. Like it or not......as long as one gives full disclosure (even to an unaccredited or unrecognized degree) there is nothing you or the schools selling new night-trade-school degrees can do about it. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 3:32:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Remember that the constitution also grants states the rights to regulate its own professions and to make laws and rules that do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 So, in CA, if you graduate from a DAOM school... you can call yourself a " doctor " ? Just to be clear.... is MS (masters of science), OMD, DOM and DAOM educational degrees, while AP, L.Ac., R.Ac, C.Ac. ... state licensing titles? K On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:32 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > Usage of any designation must pass your state's licensing boards approval > or you might be in violation of false advertising (ethical violation) and > subject to reprimand. CA has set a legal precedent whereby they will accept > some doctorate programs but not the so-called diploma mill schools. You > must mention the educational field in advertising as well. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > johnkokko > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:18:19 -0800 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > So.. those with a DAOM degree can not legally call themselves a doctor? > > What would be the case with the FDP degree? > > > > How would Asian medicine practitioners get that right to call themselves a > > doctor? > > > > K > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:15 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > >wrote: > > > > > > > > Y and others, > > > There is some mixing of terminology here that is confusing. First, the > > > programs that are in acupuncture-only are required to be at least 1905 > hours > > > while OM is required to be at least 2625 hours in length according to > ACAOM. > > > The CA standards for OM are higher (3000 hours) and CA has no > > > acupuncture-only programs, by law. A 2100 hour program would not qualify > to > > > be OM and therefore would not qualify a graduate entrance into a DAOM, > based > > > upon hours and subjects. > > > As the DAOMs, include herbs, some have required students to take more > hours > > > prior to being allowed entry. Currently there are no Doctorates in > > > Acupuncture, so a graduate of one of the acupuncture-only programs must > be > > > additionally trained in Chinese herbs from an acceptable program of study > > > prior to entrance into a DAOM. They must be at a similar level of > education > > > before they will be allowed in. > > > At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor > title. > > > States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected > title > > > or limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can > certainly > > > mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and > > > also have the suffix following your name. I have seen others doing this > in > > > the past with the older OMD titles in CA. > > > This all goes back to the CA acu profession vs the rest of the country > and > > > how we each see our profession. We still have those that want us to > remain > > > as a cottage industry and ignorant of western science. You cannot have > > > things both ways. We are starting to see this change as pressure is > being > > > put upon the decision makers to make us a legit doctoring profession. I > > > believe that a doctorate in our profession can go a long ways to add to a > > > master's education, which is why they are becoming more popular. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:29:20 -0800 > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't see what's wrong with the current state of > affairs: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. That the licensure and right to practice is regulated by the states, > > > and that licensure is predicated upon graduating from an ACAOM accredited > > > Master's program. > > > > > > 2. Should a licensed practitioner seek a more advanced level of > education, > > > there is the DAOM option. As we have spoken of, most DAOM programs are 2 > > > years, DAOM's learn academics and clinical skills not necessarily > > > available to Master's students , and are entitled to call themselves > > > doctors. In the networking world in which we live and work, that title > > > should definitely mean greater referrals from other medical professionals > > > and higher income. What else (such as greater accessability to patients > in a > > > hospital setting, for example) remains to be seen, but personally, I have > > > been willing to take the chance based upon the potential benefit. There > is > > > no question that I am a better practitioner having nearly completed my > first > > > of 2 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only problems that I see in the current state of affairs, are the > > > following, and from what I understand they are being resolved: > > > > > > 1. I believe that Master's students should be required to have a > > > Bachelor's degree in order to attend. > > > > > > 2. I believe that greater selectivity should go into the admissions > > > process, and entrance should not be automatic. > > > > > > 3. I believe that Master's programs should be 4 full years, should have > a > > > much more rigorous Western Science component and should have greater > > > accountability for their clinical internships. Mine was a joke, and the > > > amount of patients that I saw was certainly inadequate to properly > prepare > > > me for clinical practice. > > > > > > The schools really need to make a greater effort to promote their clinics > > > for the benefit of interns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain to me, therefore, what would be the advantage of an > > > all-inclusive, first professional doctorate?What is wrong with giving a > > > student the option that they currently have of either going 4 years, > getting > > > a masters, and being no less of a professional as a MSW, or MPT? Or if > the > > > student chooses, let them continue for 2 more years and get their DAOM? > > > Again, though, I believe that it is our responsibility to properly > promote > > > and define just what we are, what a DAOM is, as the MDs, DOs and DCs > have > > > defined themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > <johnkokko > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > Mon, November 23, 2009 10:13:08 PM > > > > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education.. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your > Masters, > > > > > > which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you > > > > > > attended, > > > > > > for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for > > > > > > entrance. > > > > > > > > > > > > The FDP should streamline the process. > > > > > > One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles, > > > > > > entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a > > > > > > Chinese medicine practitioner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD, > > > AP.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you > > > > > > can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400... > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are > confused > > > > > > about what we do and what our training entails. > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, MercuriusTrismegistus < > > > > > > magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law. > > > > > > > What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or > > > > > > > extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > " stephenwoodley " <learntcm <learntcm%40fastmail.fm>> > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM > > > > > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mercurius wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees > > > > > > > > when we > > > > > > > > started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen: > > > > > > > > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen WoodleyLAc > > > > > > > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and > > > > > > > > love email again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I'll say it one last time. Federal Case Law TRUMPS all of your theories. Florida legislative lawyers through the Florida Board of Acupuncture put in an Administrative Code Rule ALLOWING truth and full disclosure in advertising allowing use of doctor of oriental medicine and acupuncture physician to name but a few. That means REGARDLESS of what, where, when, how or why...... a licensee can use such titles pursuant to the rule requirements one of which is full disclosure. It gets tiring to re-explain over and over again. So here goes this last time. There are at least four different sources for titles. 1) accredited degrees 2) unaccredited degrees or unrecognized degrees 3) other state licensure titles such 4) collegial titles. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 3:37:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: It has occurred that there can be a couple of different issues here. One is the acceptance of using Dr or physician in your state and other is the acceptance of the educational program leading to this degree. Does FL have any limitation on the diploma mill programs (unaccredited) that allow one to get their doctorate online or by correspondence and still use these protected titles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Bravo Mark Someone with a clear head operating from the real world. Just to clarify.....I have pushed the issue to its edges and beyond and although I use all the letters after my name.....my patients call me by my first name, they respect me because of the results I get and lastly - maybe even more importantly I use the title ORIENTAL MEDICAL PRACTITIONER because that's also allowed in our STATUTE. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 4:15:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, zaranski writes: hey, Mike! What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a matter of a respected title you desire? Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each other? Good luck there! For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the decision of trained medical professionals)For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the answer to all your practices' financial If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price, its up to you. Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is gained while still a student. Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone treating) there. Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities for students to build valuable clinical experience. I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools. Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010) _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@nat> wrote: > > > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains we have made. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) > jensmeister@ > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level that qualifies for a FPD. > > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a requirement. > > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD. > > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. > > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing it from a more elevated podium. > > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do anything. > > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to transport our profession to the next level? > > Respectfully > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) , acudoc11@ wrote: > > > > > > Jens > > > > > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see the > > > LAW -Practice Scope? > > > > > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a > > > wishing/hoping position. > > > > > > The last I cared to look.....acupunctur The last I cared to look.....acupun > > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as > > > primary care providers. > > > > > > So from our position we would say......... So from our position we would > > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER don't > > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do what we > > > already do......which is functioning as a physician. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > > jensmeister@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so sad. > > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical > > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are > > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could > > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. > > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take > > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! > > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped > > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we > > > will be left wondering what happened. > > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! > > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own > > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But > > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " > > > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > _Traditional_ <WBRTraditional_WBRTr > > > (_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) ) , " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > _http://www.microsofhttp://www.michttp://wwwhttp://www.mihttp://wwhttp://www.mic\ http://www.http://wwhttp://www.http://www.mi_ (http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727:\ :T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en- US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 K, Here is the CA ruling on this. " 1399.456. Use of the Title " Doctor " .It is unprofessional conduct for an acupuncturist to use the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " in connection with the practice of acupuncture unless he or she possesses a license or certificate which authorizes such use or possesses an earned doctorate degree from an accredited, approved or authorized educational institution as set forth under Article 4 (commencing with section 94760) of Chapter 7 of Part 59 which is in acupuncture, Oriental medicine, a biological science, or is otherwise related to the authorized practice of an acupuncturist as set forth in Sections 4927 and 4937 of the Code.The use of the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " by an acupuncturist as authorized above without further indicating the type of license, certificate or degree which authorizes such use, constitutes unprofessional conduct. " I am unsure if they are recognizing these new DAOM degrees as they are not yet accredited but they are state approved so it should apply. An MS is your entry degree. The OMD is like the new DAOM and was sort of like a PhD, some even required a thesis. They were two years of post graduate study and followed acupuncture certification training. The designation of DOM was used by a CA school, South Baylo Univ, for several years for their unaccredited doctorate program and also by FL and NM for licensing designations. NV might be using a similar designation or OMD, do not remember. The ones you mention for licensing are for sure licensing designations used by many but some of the above are also in this category. And then we have the issue of some practitioners advertising their state license, from another state, that includes them as a doctor. This really is false advertising at its best. So, for about $200 a year you can call yourself a doctor, even though you lack the actual degree and do not live anywhere near Rhode Islan. Kind of weird, huh? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:39:00 -0800 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) So, in CA, if you graduate from a DAOM school... you can call yourself a " doctor " ? Just to be clear.... is MS (masters of science), OMD, DOM and DAOM educational degrees, while AP, L.Ac., R.Ac, C.Ac. ... state licensing titles? K On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:32 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > Usage of any designation must pass your state's licensing boards approval > or you might be in violation of false advertising (ethical violation) and > subject to reprimand. CA has set a legal precedent whereby they will accept > some doctorate programs but not the so-called diploma mill schools. You > must mention the educational field in advertising as well. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > johnkokko > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:18:19 -0800 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > So.. those with a DAOM degree can not legally call themselves a doctor? > > What would be the case with the FDP degree? > > > > How would Asian medicine practitioners get that right to call themselves a > > doctor? > > > > K > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:15 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > >wrote: > > > > > > > > Y and others, > > > There is some mixing of terminology here that is confusing. First, the > > > programs that are in acupuncture-only are required to be at least 1905 > hours > > > while OM is required to be at least 2625 hours in length according to > ACAOM. > > > The CA standards for OM are higher (3000 hours) and CA has no > > > acupuncture-only programs, by law. A 2100 hour program would not qualify > to > > > be OM and therefore would not qualify a graduate entrance into a DAOM, > based > > > upon hours and subjects. > > > As the DAOMs, include herbs, some have required students to take more > hours > > > prior to being allowed entry. Currently there are no Doctorates in > > > Acupuncture, so a graduate of one of the acupuncture-only programs must > be > > > additionally trained in Chinese herbs from an acceptable program of study > > > prior to entrance into a DAOM. They must be at a similar level of > education > > > before they will be allowed in. > > > At present time, having a DAOM does not mean you can use the doctor > title. > > > States may have laws that preclude its usage of this as a protected > title > > > or limitations on what an acupuncturist can use as well. You can > certainly > > > mention you have your doctorate degree on your website, business card and > > > also have the suffix following your name. I have seen others doing this > in > > > the past with the older OMD titles in CA. > > > This all goes back to the CA acu profession vs the rest of the country > and > > > how we each see our profession. We still have those that want us to > remain > > > as a cottage industry and ignorant of western science. You cannot have > > > things both ways. We are starting to see this change as pressure is > being > > > put upon the decision makers to make us a legit doctoring profession. I > > > believe that a doctorate in our profession can go a long ways to add to a > > > master's education, which is why they are becoming more popular. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:29:20 -0800 > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't see what's wrong with the current state of > affairs: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. That the licensure and right to practice is regulated by the states, > > > and that licensure is predicated upon graduating from an ACAOM accredited > > > Master's program. > > > > > > 2. Should a licensed practitioner seek a more advanced level of > education, > > > there is the DAOM option. As we have spoken of, most DAOM programs are 2 > > > years, DAOM's learn academics and clinical skills not necessarily > > > available to Master's students , and are entitled to call themselves > > > doctors. In the networking world in which we live and work, that title > > > should definitely mean greater referrals from other medical professionals > > > and higher income. What else (such as greater accessability to patients > in a > > > hospital setting, for example) remains to be seen, but personally, I have > > > been willing to take the chance based upon the potential benefit. There > is > > > no question that I am a better practitioner having nearly completed my > first > > > of 2 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only problems that I see in the current state of affairs, are the > > > following, and from what I understand they are being resolved: > > > > > > 1. I believe that Master's students should be required to have a > > > Bachelor's degree in order to attend. > > > > > > 2. I believe that greater selectivity should go into the admissions > > > process, and entrance should not be automatic. > > > > > > 3. I believe that Master's programs should be 4 full years, should have > a > > > much more rigorous Western Science component and should have greater > > > accountability for their clinical internships. Mine was a joke, and the > > > amount of patients that I saw was certainly inadequate to properly > prepare > > > me for clinical practice. > > > > > > The schools really need to make a greater effort to promote their clinics > > > for the benefit of interns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain to me, therefore, what would be the advantage of an > > > all-inclusive, first professional doctorate?What is wrong with giving a > > > student the option that they currently have of either going 4 years, > getting > > > a masters, and being no less of a professional as a MSW, or MPT? Or if > the > > > student chooses, let them continue for 2 more years and get their DAOM? > > > Again, though, I believe that it is our responsibility to properly > promote > > > and define just what we are, what a DAOM is, as the MDs, DOs and DCs > have > > > defined themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > <johnkokko > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > Mon, November 23, 2009 10:13:08 PM > > > > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > Doctors of chiropractic become doctors after 4000 + hours of education.. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the current DAOM programs, most are 1200+ hours on top of your > Masters, > > > > > > which varies between 2100 - 3400 hours, depending on the school you > > > > > > attended, > > > > > > for a grand total of 3300-4600 hours. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most schools around the country only require 2 years of college for > > > > > > entrance. > > > > > > > > > > > > The FDP should streamline the process. > > > > > > One thing for sure, is there needs to be more consistency in titles, > > > > > > entrance requirements and academic requirements in the education of a > > > > > > Chinese medicine practitioner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are the titles out there... L.Ac., R.Ac,.C.Ac., DOM, DAOM, OMD, > > > AP.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Every state has different rules for the practice... in some states, you > > > > > > can't practice acupuncture at all, but a dentist can. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some schools are 2100 hours, others go up to 3400... > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no wonder that people outside of the acupuncture world are > confused > > > > > > about what we do and what our training entails. > > > > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 5:24 PM, MercuriusTrismegistus < > > > > > > magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My girlfriend had a Masters Degree is theology. She got a Phd in Law. > > > > > > > What does one have to do with the other? Many of us did have degrees or > > > > > > > extensive work experience in biology or the health care field, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > " stephenwoodley " <learntcm <learntcm%40fastmail.fm>> > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, November 23, 2009 4:24 PM > > > > > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mercurius wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of my classmates, including myself all had Bachelors degrees > > > > > > > > when we > > > > > > > > started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen: > > > > > > > > Sure, but I bet that NONE had a BS in TCM... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen WoodleyLAc > > > > > > > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and > > > > > > > > love email again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Shantileigh More kudos go out to a real person (in this case a DC & CAc) living and working in the real world. The doctor title business is just an expensive con to BILK big money from the unsuspecting student to keep them in the ETHER with the unreal carrot at the end of the stick. There's NO bucket of gold at the end of the rainbow. People.....WAKE UP. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 5:00:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, shantileigh writes: There's a great letter about that topic here: http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/chiropractors-perspective-fpd Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry zedbowls <zaranski Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 <Chinese Medicine > TCM - Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) hey, Mike! What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a matter of a respected title you desire? Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each other? Good luck there! For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the decision of trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are controlled by accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of their patient. If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price, its up to you. Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is gained while still a student. Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone treating) there. Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities for students to build valuable clinical experience. I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools. Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010) Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains we have made. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > jensmeister > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level that qualifies for a FPD. > > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a requirement. > > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD. > > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. > > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing it from a more elevated podium. > > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do anything. > > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to transport our profession to the next level? > > Respectfully > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> , acudoc11@ wrote: > > > > > > Jens > > > > > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see the > > > LAW -Practice Scope? > > > > > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a > > > wishing/hoping position. > > > > > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 states > > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as > > > primary care providers. > > > > > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT now > > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER don't > > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do what we > > > already do......which is functioning as a physician. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > > jensmeister@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so sad. > > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical > > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are > > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could > > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. > > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take > > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! > > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped > > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we > > > will be left wondering what happened. > > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! > > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own > > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But > > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " > > > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ > > > (Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> ) , " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 <http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727:\ :T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en- US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. 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Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Michael This is like beating a dead horse. Look up Strang v Satz yourself. Also look up definition of COMMON LAW. Lastly look up Florida Admin Code Rule 64B1-9.007, FAC. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 5:46:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Case law does not trump the constitution, which is the ultimate law of our land. You do confirm my point though about sources of degrees. What you have not said is if you think that people can inaccurately choose to advertise having a doctorate degree when it is unrecognized and if that is acceptable as grounds for license revocation. The state of CA seems to think it is grounds for punishment and has created numerous examples of where practitioners have lost their license on such grounds. Are you saying they should not have been punished? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I agree with Keith ~ there is definitely not consensus in the profession. A First-Professional-Doctorate would REPLACE our current First-Professional-Masters degree. The master's level degree would cease to exist. Here are some common myths about the FPD: 1. A FPD WILL RAISE THE STANDARD OF EDUCATION The main assumption layered into this myth is that the current level of education is deficient in some way. Those who support an increase in educational hours for entry-level, and a new degree title claim that because the new programs will involve more integrative medical training, acupuncture will become more accepted by western medical practitioners, facilities, and reimbursers. This simply is not true. What is true is that a new-entry level doctorate (FPD) will raise the cost and time involved to earn this degree. The educational effects, if any, are yet to be measured or evaluated, and the conclusion that more education means more jobs or earnings or even a better education for graduates is unfounded. 2. FPD WILL MAKE MORE JOBS FOR ACUPUNCTURISTS Currently there are very few jobs for licensed acupuncturists, outside of teaching in acupuncture programs. Data on the actual incomes of acupuncturists is scarce and misleading, and a large percentage of licensed acupuncturists stop practicing in the first 5 years. Although bio-medicine is starting to become interested in AOM there will be no sudden increase in the demand for acupuncturists, even with a new degree title or a year more of education focused on bio-medicine. No one outside of the profession will take much notice or have much invested in what degree title and acupuncturist has. Even research jobs will not become available to entry-level doctorate graduates, as these programs are not academic doctorates intended to make a significant academic contribution to the field (like a PhD.) Entry-level doctorates like entry-level masters degrees, provide the basic training necessary to begin practicing. 3. STAKEHOLDERS OF THE PROFESSION HAVE REACHED CONSENSUS REGARDING THE DEVELOPMENT OF STANDARDS FOR AND SUBSEQUENT PILOTING OF A FIRST PROFESSIONAL DOCTORATE IN ACUPUNCTURE AND IN ORIENTAL MEDICINE, IN ANTICIPATION OF MAKING IT THE NEW ENTRY-LEVEL DEGREE The following groups of stakeholders have not been adequately addressed: 1. Current AOM patients 2. Employers of acupuncturists 3. Stakeholders in communities having limited access to acupuncture because of affordability, lack of AOM care-facilities in these places, and lack of practitioners from and serving these communities All of the surveys conducted by the large organization of the profession have shown disagreement about changing the entry-level degree for the profession. Terms like " widely accepted " and consensus are not clear. 4. AS A PROFESSION, AOM HAS A CLEAR VISION FOR IT'S FUTURE ROLES IN THE HEALTHCARE A vision for our profession, or any other healthcare field, needs to be tied to core values such as access, affordability, patient care, and the creation of stable, sustainable delivery system. The profession is, and has long been, divided about the means to uphold these most basic core values. Like bio-medicine, professional values for AOM have the potential to become weakened by the costly, bureaucratic, and sometimes greed driven elements of current delivery systems. As a nation we are struggling to envision and re-structure our healthcare system. AOM, like it or not, still remains on the edges of that system, with less than 5% of the population even seeking AOM services. From this vantage point, however, we can better see and navigate our way to a more equitable and sustainable means of providing our medicine to the people. We can also choose to structure training and education in AOM to reflect and promote social justice, and to realistically account for economic realities for all the people we can potentially serve with our care and services. 5. ACUPUNCTURE IS LIKE PHYSICAL THERAPY, OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY, PHARMACY, OR NURSING PT, OT, Pharm. and nursing all have their foundations in the principles of bio- medicine, which are at the core of the medical system that supports these professions. Acupuncture is fundamentally different, and though it's modalities and theories can be practiced along side those of bio-medicine, the differences at the core of the two medicines cannot be merged. There are literally thousands and thousands of clinical jobs in PT, OT, Pharm. and nursing that graduates need only apply for. There are very few jobs like this in acupuncture—maybe a few dozen. Most acupuncturists must also be entrepreneurs. If acupuncture were truly like these professions, and was poised on the brink of becoming wildly accepted by the mainstream, there would need to be shorter degree programs to address the shortage of acupuncturists. 6. FPD PROGRAMS AREN'T GOING TO COST MORE THAN THE CURRENT MASTER'S LEVEL PROGRAMS Yes they will and here's why: having faculty with higher academic degrees requires higher salaries; FPD programs will require larger libraries, more labs and clinic sites, more administrative oversight, more evaluation, etc. All of these things will cost the student more. The existing master's degree is already fairly expensive and burdens graduates with debt for years after graduation. An FPD would further increase debt burden for students. 7. HAVING AN FPD AS THE ENTRY LEVEL REQUIREMENT WILL ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE TO THE PROFESSION What will attract new people to the profession is affordable, quality, education and sustainable, stable jobs. One supporter of a new entry-level degree speculated that black and Hispanic people are not generally entrepreneurial, and therefore a new degree title in acupuncture would attract students from these greatly under-represented groups to the profession, because the new degree will create jobs. This thinking is fantasy at best and racist at worse. 8. EVERYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY LICENSED WILL BE GRANDFATHERED IN AND WILL AUTOMATICALLY RECEIVE THE NEW " DOCTOR " DEGREE TITLE Those currently in practice with master's degree or pre-master's degree certificates will be give the option to complete a " transitional " or " post-professional " degree. These programs will be virtually un-supervised and un-evaluated simply due to a lack of resources (since a new entry-level degree would be the priority for these resources.) It is highly unlikely that the professional organizations would accredit post-professional or transitional degree programs, due to cost and low demand. Those seeking to " update " to an entry-level doctorate would bear the expense of another year of school (approximately $18,000 in tuition), travel to and from such programs, and loss of work while completing such a program. State lawmakers look to professional organizations and certifying agencies to set the standards of education. If the FPD became the entry-level degree, some states would change their laws to reflect this. Without strong advocacy and representation practitioners with master's level or non-degree certificate educations (like all of our old teachers) could be legislated out of practice. 9. ACUPUNCTURISTS ARE PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS In a few states, like New Mexico and California, acupuncturists are in the letter of the law called primary care. New Mexico suffers from an overall lack of medical professionals and so acupuncturists have been asked to help out. In California there has been a lot of confusion regarding the role of AOM practitioners. In the legal intent section of the California licensing law LAc. are " primary care professionals " in the field of AOM. This is much better explained in all of it's complexity inLitle Hoover Commission report on the subject found at http://www.lhc.ca.gov/studies/175/report175.pdf . Nowhere in the regulations of the legislation are LAc. defined as " primary care practitioners. In NM acupuncturists, due to an aggressive AOM lobby, can order diagnostic tests like x-rays and blood work, and can prescribe a limited number of drugs, and do injection therapies. These two examples of acupuncturists as primary care are repeatedly paraded as a call to the entire profession to assume roles and responsibilities that a majority of practitioners do not want, nor are qualified to have. For those practitioners desiring a place in the integrated care setting, the post-graduate DAOM degree is an opportunity to gain the proficiencies necessary to make this leap. To require this leap as a next step for all present and future AOM practitioners would be a great detriment to AOM's potential to reach hundreds of millions more patients. Acupuncture and OM needs to be promoted for what it is: a simple, inexpensive, treatment for almost anything, that reduces stress, and prevents illness. As our medicine has changed in time and with cultural contact with the west, we bear different responsibilities. Our greatest benefit to others is currently in the simple and in expensive way that acupuncture provides relief for almost any condition, and in particular conditions worsened by stress. If we prioritize the need to be seen as " equals " with bio-medical professionals, we cannot prioritize the needs of our patients. 10. A DOCTOR TITLE FOR AOM PRACTITIONERS IS NEEDED TO HELP THE PUBLIC UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS WE DO At present there are at least 5 degree titles for acupuncturists (MTCM, MAc., MAOM, DAOM, DOM—technically those with DOM certificates do not actually have a degree called DOM) and almost as many license titles (LAc., CAc.-WI, DAc.-RI, AP-FL, DOM-NM). If you find this confusing, imagine how the general public would feel, or a prospective employer or non-acupuncturist colleague. We can best help the public to understand what it is we do by delivering treatments directly to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Michael I couldn't care less what happens in CA just like they don't care what happens in the rest of the country, When was the last time YOU sued on your own without a lawyer any State? I at least gave the state of Florida a run for their crooked lives in Federal Court in 2005 with over 89+ pleadings on the docket lasting one year in Federal Court on Constitutional Issues and received kudos from the Chief Federal Judge in that Northern District of Florida for my quite capable pleadings on Constitutional Issues....which is more than most nickel-dime lawyers can do. OF COURSE NON OF ANY OF MY COMMENTS ARE LEGAL ADVICE Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 5:53:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Neither one of us is a constitutional scholar or legal expert. The states do have the right to regulate healthcare professionals and do so through state licensing boards. This is not going to change anytime soon. As for your opinion about full disclosure, it has not shown itself to work in CA on the doctorate usage issue. I would think that the state's considered this issue before this was decided upon. It is what it is and it is considered unethical to use doctor w/o a doctorate degree that is approved by the state of CA. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:37:20 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Michael Your quoting of constitutional law is incomplete. States have police powers but NOT when they step on Constitutional Rights and therein lies a prohibition of the states on individuals presenting/advertising Commercial Free Speech. Like it or not......as long as one gives full disclosure (even to an unaccredited or unrecognized degree) there is nothing you or the schools selling new night-trade-school degrees can do about it. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 3:32:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Remember that the constitution also grants states the rights to regulate its own professions and to make laws and rules that do this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLM TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 You continue to ignore what has been clearly presented. Your choice. So I shall end this thread. In a message dated 11/24/2009 6:02:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, This is was not about FLorida (or your legal challenges there) but about usage of protected titles and that a person cannot simply make up their education and license as this could be a violation of the public's safety. I used the example of CA as they have a ruling on this. I also provided the code for reference. The fact that there are practitioners that have lost their acupuncture license by using doctor in CA appears to be missing from this conversation when this was one of my major points. I asked that people contact their licensing board to enquire, which it appears you are not in agreement with. When do you think you should listen to your licensing board? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains we have made. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine jensmeister Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I do practice in California and am considered a primary care provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level that qualifies for a FPD. If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a requirement. Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD. That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing it from a more elevated podium. And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do anything. But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to transport our profession to the next level? Respectfully Jens Maassen L.Ac. Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > > Jens > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see the > LAW -Practice Scope? > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a > wishing/hoping position. > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 states > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as > primary care providers. > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT now > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER don't > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do what we > already do......which is functioning as a physician. > > Richard > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jensmeister writes: > > > > > This is so sad. > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we > will be left wondering what happened. > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ > (Chinese Medicine ) , " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote: > _______________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Richard, Licensing boards are subject to previous rulings as well. If your state has done this at another level, then it is golden but otherwise most states run these things through their licensing boards. Since we are regulated by these boards, then what they say usually must be followed otherwise you risk your license. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:29 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) In Florida the use of Doctor and Physician titles are NOT considered fraud or deceptive in advertising pursuant to the Quasi-Legislated Administrative Code Rule. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 11:33:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Usage of any designation must pass your state's licensing boards approval or you might be in violation of false advertising (ethical violation) and subject to reprimand. CA has set a legal precedent whereby they will accept some doctorate programs but not the so-called diploma mill schools. You must mention the educational field in advertising as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Actually all of these are plausible outcomes. As for the master's degree, it is weak. We often pride ourselves on our Chinese trained faculty, of which many have PhD's. The DAOM students have been largely giving very positive feedback about training and clinical experiences. Maybe we should start to listen to those that are in these programs and the instructors as well. Here is my response to these myths: 1) Increases in training naturally do raise the standard of education by its very nature. We do not think that the 100-300 hour programs of some professionals hold a candle to us, so by the same argument here. A 4000 hour program is better then a 2500-3000 hour one. That should be a no brainer. 2) We are actually seeing more employment ops in western medical settings as well as a need for supervisors that have advanced training. Schools with these are setting the bar for greater integrative ops. 3) There has been a lot of debating on this issue and in the past it was about even. That was before the Asian practitioners were included in the polls. Since then, there has been tremendous support for a doctorate degree and movement toward a FPD. With greater training comes greater respect and opportunity. Maybe we should be asking the new students, the future of the profession. I think the results of the survey showed they were greatly for it. This list is a bit weak and overlooks the major groups mostly affected by this nor was there mention of the positive outlook of elevating acupuncture to household conversation because of the increased numbers of professionals. Greater education makes for a better doctor. 4) Individuals may have disagreements about these goals but those that represent us are becoming much more clear about where we need to be going if we are to continue to exist. It clearly is not backwards (regression). Nothing stays static in life. 5) The comparison with these other healthcare professions was about education and licensing and not theoretical models related to that education. If someone was to make this a better comparison, then maybe TCM should be included as it has been largely influenced by the medical educational model since the 1950's. 6) The cost might be slightly elevated but then you need to consider that this will be prorated over a longer period of time. So, annually it might actually cost less per student in attendance. 7) No one really knows this at the moment but my contacts with students is that they are largely in favor of being able to get this higher degree. I have also had others tell me that they want a doctorate degree and choose another profession or look to add acupuncture to OM. Why should these students have to get doctoral training in other professions in order to be seen as professionals? How is this racist?8) There is no precedent for requiring a profession to go back to school. Most likely it will be a pro-rated educational increase, which might actually be an increase in ceu hours over a period of time. We currently have practitioners with certificates and diplomas that have been grandfathered into practice. The cost estimate of $18,000 is unlikely. What source mentions this costly figure? 9) In the state of CA, the LAc is primarycare under the worker's compensation system. This was a legal determination made by the state's attorney on behalf of the CAB and continues to remain. Greater inclusion of OM exists as a result of this positive press. Our profession looks at the training of Asian doctors of OM, mostly Chinese but also Korean, as the highest standard of education in the profession. This is seen by reviewing the faculty listing of the OM colleges and the courses they teach. Asian faculty largely outnumber US trained faculty by wide margins. This is largely do to the better training, both clinical and theoretical, given abroad and preference given to faculty with it. Some of these members are given better teaching positions at western medical schools and some of these practitioners are able to qualify for their MD license. Where is the proof that a majority of us do not want increased ops or greater respect? I would suggest that proof exists for the opposite. Students have choices to attend programs in most states, yet why are there so many that move to CA to attend school there? It could be the weather but most likely it is a combination of better academics and the chance to practice in a state with a greater scope of practice. 10) This simply means matching our educational degree with licensing much like the MD, DO, ND, DC, PT, etc. It makes sense for us to do this and will help to clear up licensing confusion. As you can see, these so called myths are themselves myths and lack any real evidence of issue but is an emotional plea to create fear. Let us rise about this and move forward. If you question the differences that exist in our profession, then contact another practitioner in one of the states like CA, FL or NM and ask them about their practice, public usage and how they feel about their level of participation in the healthcare system. I am pretty sure you will not get any response that they want less options. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Traditional Medicine > shantileigh > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:27:27 -0500 > RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > A First-Professional-Doctorate would REPLACE our current First-Professional-Masters degree. The master's level degree would cease to exist. > > > > Here are some common myths about the FPD: > > > 1. A FPD WILL RAISE THE STANDARD OF EDUCATION > > The main assumption layered into this myth is that the current level of education is deficient in some way. Those who support an increase in educational hours for entry-level, and a new degree title claim that because the new programs will involve more integrative medical training, acupuncture will become more > accepted by western medical practitioners, facilities, and reimbursers. This simply is not true. > > What is true is that a new-entry level doctorate (FPD) will raise the cost and time involved to earn this degree. The educational effects, if any, are yet to be > measured or evaluated, and the conclusion that more education means more jobs or earnings or even a better education for graduates is unfounded. > > > 2. FPD WILL MAKE MORE JOBS FOR ACUPUNCTURISTS > > Currently there are very few jobs for licensed acupuncturists, outside of teaching in acupuncture programs. Data on the actual incomes of acupuncturists is > scarce and misleading, and a large percentage of licensed acupuncturists stop practicing in the first 5 years. Although bio-medicine is starting to become > interested in AOM there will be no sudden increase in the demand for acupuncturists, even with a new degree title or a year more of education focused > on bio-medicine. No one outside of the profession will take much notice or have much invested in what degree title and acupuncturist has. Even research jobs will not become available to entry-level doctorate graduates, as these programs are not academic doctorates intended to make a significant academic > contribution to the field (like a PhD.) Entry-level doctorates like entry-level masters degrees, provide the basic training necessary to begin practicing. > > 3. STAKEHOLDERS OF THE PROFESSION HAVE REACHED CONSENSUS REGARDING THE DEVELOPMENT OF STANDARDS FOR AND SUBSEQUENT PILOTING OF A FIRST PROFESSIONAL DOCTORATE IN ACUPUNCTURE AND IN ORIENTAL MEDICINE, IN ANTICIPATION OF MAKING IT THE NEW ENTRY-LEVEL DEGREE > > The following groups of stakeholders have not been adequately addressed: > 1. Current AOM patients > 2. Employers of acupuncturists > 3. Stakeholders in communities having limited access to acupuncture because of affordability, lack of AOM care-facilities in these places, and lack of practitioners from and serving these communities > > All of the surveys conducted by the large organization of the profession have shown disagreement about changing the entry-level degree for the profession. > Terms like “widely accepted” and consensus are not clear. > > > 4. AS A PROFESSION, AOM HAS A CLEAR VISION FOR IT’S FUTURE ROLES IN THE HEALTHCARE > > A vision for our profession, or any other healthcare field, needs to be tied to core values such as access, affordability, patient care, and the creation of stable, > sustainable delivery system. The profession is, and has long been, divided about the means to uphold these most basic core values. Like bio-medicine, > professional values for AOM have the potential to become weakened by the costly, bureaucratic, and sometimes greed driven elements of current delivery > systems. > > As a nation we are struggling to envision and re-structure our healthcare system. AOM, like it or not, still remains on the edges of that system, with less than 5% of the population even seeking AOM services. From this vantage point, however, we can better see and navigate our way to a more equitable and sustainable means of providing our medicine to the people. We can also choose to structure training and education in AOM to reflect and promote social justice, and to realistically account for economic realities for all the people we can potentially serve with our care and services. > > 5. ACUPUNCTURE IS LIKE PHYSICAL THERAPY, OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY, PHARMACY, OR NURSING > > PT, OT, Pharm. and nursing all have their foundations in the principles of bio- medicine, which are at the core of the medical system that supports these > professions. Acupuncture is fundamentally different, and though it’s modalities and theories can be practiced along side those of bio-medicine, the differences at the core of the two medicines cannot be merged. There are literally thousands and thousands of clinical jobs in PT, OT, Pharm. > and nursing that graduates need only apply for. There are very few jobs like this in acupuncture—maybe a few dozen. Most acupuncturists must also be > entrepreneurs. If acupuncture were truly like these professions, and was poised on the brink of becoming wildly accepted by the mainstream, there would need to be shorter degree programs to address the shortage of acupuncturists. > > > 6. FPD PROGRAMS AREN’T GOING TO COST MORE THAN THE CURRENT MASTER’S LEVEL PROGRAMS > > Yes they will and here’s why: having faculty with higher academic degrees requires higher salaries; FPD programs will require larger libraries, more labs > and clinic sites, more administrative oversight, more evaluation, etc. All of these things will cost the student more. The existing master’s degree is already fairly expensive and burdens graduates with debt for years after graduation. An FPD would further increase debt burden for students. > > 7. HAVING AN FPD AS THE ENTRY LEVEL REQUIREMENT WILL ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE TO THE PROFESSION > > What will attract new people to the profession is affordable, quality, education and sustainable, stable jobs. One supporter of a new entry-level degree > speculated that black and Hispanic people are not generally entrepreneurial, and therefore a new degree title in acupuncture would attract students from these > greatly under-represented groups to the profession, because the new degree will create jobs. This thinking is fantasy at best and racist at worse. > > > 8. EVERYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY LICENSED WILL BE GRANDFATHERED IN AND WILL AUTOMATICALLY RECEIVE THE NEW “DOCTOR” DEGREE TITLE > > Those currently in practice with master’s degree or pre-master’s degree certificates will be give the option to complete a “transitional” or “post- > professional” degree. These programs will be virtually un-supervised and un-evaluated simply due to a lack of resources (since a new entry-level degree > would be the priority for these resources.) It is highly unlikely that the professional organizations would accredit post-professional or transitional degree programs, due to cost and low demand. Those seeking to “update” to an entry-level doctorate would bear the expense of another year of school (approximately $18,000 in tuition), travel to and from such programs, and loss of work while completing such a program. > > State lawmakers look to professional organizations and certifying agencies to set the standards of education. If the FPD became the entry-level degree, some > states would change their laws to reflect this. Without strong advocacy and representation practitioners with master’s level or non-degree certificate > educations (like all of our old teachers) could be legislated out of practice. > > 9. ACUPUNCTURISTS ARE PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS > > In a few states, like New Mexico and California, acupuncturists are in the letter of the law called primary care. New Mexico suffers from an overall lack of medical professionals and so acupuncturists have been asked to help out. In California there has been a lot of confusion regarding the role of AOM practitioners. In the legal intent section of the California licensing law LAc. are " primary care professionals " in the field of AOM. This is much better explained in all of it's complexity inLitle Hoover Commission report on the subject found at http://www.lhc.ca.gov/studies/175/report175.pdf . Nowhere in the regulations of the legislation are LAc. defined as " primary care practitioners. In NM acupuncturists, due to an aggressive AOM lobby, can order diagnostic tests like x-rays and blood work, and can prescribe a limited number of drugs, and do injection therapies. > > These two examples of acupuncturists as primary care are repeatedly paraded as a call to the entire profession to assume roles and responsibilities that a > majority of practitioners do not want, nor are qualified to have. For those practitioners desiring a place in the integrated care setting, the post-graduate > DAOM degree is an opportunity to gain the proficiencies necessary to make this leap. To require this leap as a next step for all present and future AOM > practitioners would be a great detriment to AOM’s potential to reach hundreds of millions more patients. > > Acupuncture and OM needs to be promoted for what it is: a simple, inexpensive, treatment for almost anything, that reduces stress, and prevents illness. As our medicine has changed in time and with cultural contact with the west, we bear different responsibilities. Our greatest benefit to others is currently in the simple and in expensive way that acupuncture provides relief for almost any condition, and in particular conditions worsened by stress. If we prioritize the need to be seen as “equals” with bio-medical professionals, we cannot prioritize the needs of our patients. > > 10. A DOCTOR TITLE FOR AOM PRACTITIONERS IS NEEDED TO HELP THE PUBLIC UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS WE DO > > At present there are at least 5 degree titles for acupuncturists (MTCM, MAc., MAOM, DAOM, DOM—technically those with DOM certificates do not actually > have a degree called DOM) and almost as many license titles (LAc., CAc.-WI, DAc.-RI, AP-FL, DOM-NM). If you find this confusing, imagine how the general > public would feel, or a prospective employer or non-acupuncturist colleague. > > We can best help the public to understand what it is we do by delivering treatments directly to them. > > _______________ > Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants & form=MFESRP & publ=WLHMTAG & crea=TEXT_MFES\ RP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Respect is implied in the doctor-patient relationship that exists automatically. Do your patients not listen to your suggestions? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:56:37 -0500 Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) And I along with many others strongly disagree. Respect is earned and does not come from ones degree. The only gains that have been made have been the ones fought for such as in Florida. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 1:54:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains we have made. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Richard, That sounds reasonable. I did imply that rulings and licensing boards are interconnected. As long as the board says go ahead, then you are good. Some states have not yet looked at this issue and may consider usage to be in violation of the statute, as many laws were passed years before there was any advanced degree. CA has also decided on this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:55:16 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Michael Ah hah.....previous rulings and therein LIES the fact. The national/federal previous rulings which have been quoted many many times. Additionally the lawyers from the Florida House and Florida Senate in 2006 pushed through to the Florida Board of Acupuncture the new Quasi-Legislated Advertising Administrative Code Rule as previously noted multiple times. As far as Florida LAc's are concerned its ALL legal as long as they follow the letter of that Code Rule. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 1:49:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Licensing boards are subject to previous rulings as well. If your state has done this at another level, then it is golden but otherwise most states run these things through their licensing boards. Since we are regulated by these boards, then what they say usually must be followed otherwise you risk your license. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Richard, You are wrong. The DC's have gotten consensus on several important issues that affect the entire profession: 1) Doctorate degree for entry level2) primarycare status in all 50 states3) no multi-tiered licensing. For the rest, it is like you said. But these three are what we are lacking and you can see a huge difference between in usage and respect. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:55:53 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Michael The Chiropractic profession is no different. In Florida there are three distinct associations. a) those who think of themselves and act as MDs b) those who wish to just be back-crackers and c) those who wish to still live in the dark ages. Then there are states where DCs can do injection therapy, states where they can't and the same goes for the use of acupuncture needles. So no consensus. So if the DCs haven't gotten a national coordinated act together what makes anyone think LAc's ever will? Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 11:27:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: John, Part of this responsibility belongs to our schools and should be part of our education. The profession is very weak when it comes to practice mgmt, ethics and legal issues in my experience. As for legal designations, that is a matter that state associations must grapple with on a state by state basis. Some states have fought hard to allow us usage of doctor or physician titles and have a scope of practice that is more worldly while others, largely due to the practitioners, want to keep us lowkey and under the radar. When you find a consensus, that is the maximum level of agreement established. Think of this as a need to expand our mindset in states with poor statutes. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Richard, It is if that practitioner does not have a degree from an acceptable program in CA, which is what we are discussing. You might want to look at the list of those CA LAc's that have lost their license sometime. Federal case law was not likely the reason they lost it but ignorance of state laws regarding acupuncture practice. Recognizing something for what it is, is not legal advice. Remember that the constitution also grants states the rights to regulate its own professions and to make laws and rules that do this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:14:49 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Michael Resist giving legal advice of the BAR in your state will come after you....especially if that advice is TOTALLY INCORRECT. As pointed to in many many previous communications....FEDERAL CASE LAW says its NOT false advertising. The cottage industry of night-trade-schools selling high priced non-PhD so-called research degrees for the use of doctor title is where the actual FRAUD might be located. Richard Richard A Freiberg OMD DAc AP LAc In a message dated 11/24/2009 12:04:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: This really is false advertising at its best. So, for about $200 a year you can call yourself a doctor, even though you lack the actual degree and do not live anywhere near Rhode Islan. Kind of weird, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 It has occurred that there can be a couple of different issues here. One is the acceptance of using Dr or physician in your state and other is the acceptance of the educational program leading to this degree. Does FL have any limitation on the diploma mill programs (unaccredited) that allow one to get their doctorate online or by correspondence and still use these protected titles? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:58:29 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) In Florida the use of Doctor and Physician titles are NOT considered fraud or deceptive in advertising pursuant to the Quasi-Legislated Administrative Code Rule. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 11:33:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Usage of any designation must pass your state's licensing boards approval or you might be in violation of false advertising (ethical violation) and subject to reprimand. CA has set a legal precedent whereby they will accept some doctorate programs but not the so-called diploma mill schools. You must mention the educational field in advertising as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 hey, Mike! What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a matter of a respected title you desire? Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each other? Good luck there! For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the decision of trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are controlled by accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of their patient. If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price, its up to you. Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is gained while still a student. Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone treating) there. Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities for students to build valuable clinical experience. I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools. Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010) Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains we have made. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > jensmeister > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level that qualifies for a FPD. > > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a requirement. > > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD. > > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. > > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing it from a more elevated podium. > > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do anything. > > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to transport our profession to the next level? > > Respectfully > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@ wrote: > > > > > > Jens > > > > > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see the > > > LAW -Practice Scope? > > > > > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a > > > wishing/hoping position. > > > > > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 states > > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as > > > primary care providers. > > > > > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT now > > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER don't > > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do what we > > > already do......which is functioning as a physician. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > > jensmeister@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so sad. > > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical > > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are > > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could > > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. > > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take > > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! > > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped > > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we > > > will be left wondering what happened. > > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! > > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own > > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But > > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " > > > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ > > > (Chinese Medicine ) , " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 There's a great letter about that topic here: http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/chiropractors-perspective-fpd Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry zedbowls <zaranski Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:14:14 <Chinese Medicine > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) hey, Mike! What did they fail to teach you in Chinese medical school that you think they would teach you if you ended-up with a Doctor title? Is it simply a matter of a respected title you desire? Do you truly believe having the title Doctor will translate into respect from MDs and DOs equivalent to that you perceive they have for each other? Good luck there! For the rest of the list, Do you think insurance reimbursement will be the answer to all your practices' financial woes? Talk to MDs/DOs (DCs, too) about how they are enjoying practice these days. I hear many complaining about how they feel they no longer control what they can do with patients because they must first get approval from the insurer (and this approval hinges on the decision of accountants more often than the decision of trained medical professionals). Doctors find they are controlled by accountants rather than by what is in the best interest of their patient. If you do a great job diagnosing and treating both branch and ROOT such that you help patients correct their problems (rather than just temporarily relieving symptoms, in effect being a substitute pain pill), you will gain a strong reputation, people will seek-out your services, people will be willing to pay for your services with cash (or equivalent) and you will not need to seek insurance reimbursement. Your patients who have insurance can submit paperwork from you (properly documented receipts) to their insurers and receive reimbursement for their out of pocket expenses. Those who have medical flex spending accounts or medical savings accounts can pay for your services with pre-tax dollars (or get reimbursed with pretax dollars). You can choose to adopt an alternative payment scale for those without ability to pay full price, its up to you. Many are inadequately prepared clinically, not academically. This is an issue with the schools themselves being unable or unwilling to provide adequate student clinic settings to attract enough patients to provide the training opportunities. Medical schools are typically associated with hospitals. In China, the same is true for traditional CM education (associated with a hospital) such that extensive clinical experience is gained while still a student. Here (US) most schools insist student clinical experience is gained ONLY at that school's student clinic, and many of these suffer from a lack of patients. Students are not allowed (in most cases) to gain clinical experience (that counts towards their required clinic hours) at private clinics. TCM hospitals do not exisit here in the US, and most biomed hospitals are not open to TCM academics and students learning (let alone treating) there. Schools that remove barriers to treatment (most often $) usually have student clinics overflowing with willing patients, and thus opportunities for students to build valuable clinical experience. I think those most likely to benefit from FPD are the schools. Mark Zaranski, Ph.D. (analytical chemistry, 1986), (pending) L.Ac. (2010) Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > One must be able to diagnose in order to treat as well as be able to understand what a patient has been diagnosed with. Entry level doctorate is what we should have done long ago and then we would not be discussing the technician vs doctor issue. Respect is a big issue and if we are to be the professionals of acupuncture and OM, then we need to be pushing for the FPD. Further efforts at continued weakening of this will only undermine the gains we have made. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > jensmeister > Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:11:45 +0000 > Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do practice in California and am considered a primary care provider that can diagnose and treat illness. Don't quite understand what that has to do with my desire to support a unified education at a level that qualifies for a FPD. > > If our profession is to survive and thrive - at a physician level, not as a technician- in an integrative medical setting, a doctoral degree is a requirement. > > Simple, but powerful example: call a doctor's office to discuss a shared patient and tell them you are a L.Ac. Most of the time you'll be talking to the receptionist. Call the same office and tell them you are a Doctor and you'll get through to the MD. > > That of course is only one of many reasons why, if you want to sit at the table as an equal, a doctoral degree is the next step to take. > > I am sure as a profession we will still have many more battles to fight to establish and protect our scope of practice, but at least we'll be doing it from a more elevated podium. > > And as far as " forcing " anyone to spend money: since the FPD will coexist with a Master degree for the foreseeable future no one is forced to do anything. > > But why would you insist to stand in the way of those that would like to transport our profession to the next level? > > Respectfully > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> , acudoc11@ wrote: > > > > > > Jens > > > > > > I must ask.....in what state do you practice for I would like to see the > > > LAW -Practice Scope? > > > > > > If you were licensed in Florida you would not be coming from such a > > > wishing/hoping position. > > > > > > The last I cared to look.....acupuncture is licensed in at least 40 states > > > while just a few of those states carry the MAJORITY of practitioners as > > > primary care providers. > > > > > > So from our position we would say............just because YOU are NOT now > > > diagnosing and treating illness and injury as a PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER don't > > > force a MAJORITY of licensees to spend more exorbitant monies to do what we > > > already do......which is functioning as a physician. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/23/09 11:18:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > > jensmeister@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so sad. > > > At a time when Acupuncture in this country is finally reaching critical > > > mass, it's been on Oprah and more and more allopathic professionals are > > > starting to consider the efficacy of our medicine, silly infighting could > > > prevent us from elevating ourselves to the next level. > > > If we elevate our profession by adopting the FPD, we have a chance to take > > > our rightful place at the table of physicians, as equals!! > > > If we blow this chance the rising interest in OUR medicine will be usurped > > > by professions that have an FPD (chiros, MDs,NDs, and even PTs) and we > > > will be left wondering what happened. > > > If we don't seize the day someone else will seize it for us!! > > > And to the people who are trying to undermine the standing of their own > > > profession I have this to say: " If you don't want an FDP, don't get one. But > > > let the rest of us strive to elevate ourselves. " > > > > > > Jens Maassen L.Ac. > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ > > > (Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> ) , " Shantileigh " <shantileigh@sha> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::\ T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 <http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727:\ :T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Paul, Nice of you to notice. There is at least two separate levels of education/licensing that exist in OM, and possibly more. Some programs offer diplomas, some degrees. Some offer acupuncture alone and others OM. The state of CA has its own exam and requires education to be at 3000 hours and covers OM. Some states allow for a reduced set of parameters in acupuncture. As you can see, there is no one set of entrance or licensing reqs. On some level, this has hampered us and continues to create issues for those licensed years ago that want to relocate. You do not see this with medical schools and most chiropractic programs as a whole. The chiro board is about licensing the practice of chiropractic and nothing else. I also live in a state where the DC profession can practice acupuncture with little or no training (affidavit of said training is all that is needed) but this an additional modality that requires certification from the state and not entrance into a profession. This is a separate issue. As we move forward with more doctorate students entering practice, eventually we will need to make changes to the licensing of the profession and allow for appropriate designations to be used. It will be nice if these can accurately reflect education as many other healthcare professions. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:52:49 -0500 Fwd: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) From Dr Paul J Reinhardt, MD __ habeas_1 naturaldoc1 CC: ACUDOC11 11/24/2009 4:19:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time Subj: RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Mike: Your multi tiered licensing comment interests me. In Florida all DCs are not equal. A separate certification is required to use acupuncture. In Alabama my chiro buddies are fed up that they are practicing under an allopathic runned " Composite " medical board.(With no acupuncture by anyone---even licensed M.D.s are harassed) Just for my own curiosity what does the comment " no multi tiered licensing " mean to you or did in mean in past struggles ? I have studied past chiro, naturopath, and osteopath caselaw a never came across the term explained. Paul Reinhardt M.D. ----------- mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Cc: <habeas_1 RE: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:12:02 +0000 Richard, You are wrong. The DC's have gotten consensus on several important issues that affect the entire profession: 1) Doctorate degree for entry level 2) primarycare status in all 50 states 3) no multi-tiered licensing. For the rest, it is like you said. But these three are what we are lacking and you can see a huge difference between in usage and respect. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc __ Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:55:53 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Michael The Chiropractic profession is no different. In Florida there are three distinct associations. a) those who think of themselves and act as MDs b) those who wish to just be back-crackers and c) those who wish to still live in the dark ages. Then there are states where DCs can do injection therapy, states where they can't and the same goes for the use of acupuncture needles. So no consensus. So if the DCs haven't gotten a national coordinated act together what makes anyone think LAc's ever will? Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 11:27:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, _naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) writes: John, Part of this responsibility belongs to our schools and should be part of our education. The profession is very weak when it comes to practice mgmt, ethics and legal issues in my experience. As for legal designations, that is a matter that state associations must grapple with on a state by state basis. Some states have fought hard to allow us usage of doctor or physician titles and have a scope of practice that is more worldly while others, largely due to the practitioners, want to keep us lowkey and under the radar. When you find a consensus, that is the maximum level of agreement established. Think of this as a need to expand our mindset in states with poor statutes. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. _I'm a rock star._ (http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727:\ :T:WLM TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009) ________ _Online Police Training Online law enforcement degree programs - 100% online while you work._ (http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2242/c?cp=Adj0vyqANvjDsALRNHqvagAAJ1HXh3 Q-qsfi3nfRh5njizHtAAQAAAAFAAAAAG3nOz4AAANSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB3EQAAAAA=) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Richard, Case law does not trump the constitution, which is the ultimate law of our land. You do confirm my point though about sources of degrees. What you have not said is if you think that people can inaccurately choose to advertise having a doctorate degree when it is unrecognized and if that is acceptable as grounds for license revocation. The state of CA seems to think it is grounds for punishment and has created numerous examples of where practitioners have lost their license on such grounds. Are you saying they should not have been punished? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:47:38 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) I'll say it one last time. Federal Case Law TRUMPS all of your theories. Florida legislative lawyers through the Florida Board of Acupuncture put in an Administrative Code Rule ALLOWING truth and full disclosure in advertising allowing use of doctor of oriental medicine and acupuncture physician to name but a few. That means REGARDLESS of what, where, when, how or why...... a licensee can use such titles pursuant to the rule requirements one of which is full disclosure. It gets tiring to re-explain over and over again. So here goes this last time. There are at least four different sources for titles. 1) accredited degrees 2) unaccredited degrees or unrecognized degrees 3) other state licensure titles such 4) collegial titles. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 3:37:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: It has occurred that there can be a couple of different issues here. One is the acceptance of using Dr or physician in your state and other is the acceptance of the educational program leading to this degree. Does FL have any limitation on the diploma mill programs (unaccredited) that allow one to get their doctorate online or by correspondence and still use these protected titles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Richard, Neither one of us is a constitutional scholar or legal expert. The states do have the right to regulate healthcare professionals and do so through state licensing boards. This is not going to change anytime soon. As for your opinion about full disclosure, it has not shown itself to work in CA on the doctorate usage issue. I would think that the state's considered this issue before this was decided upon. It is what it is and it is considered unethical to use doctor w/o a doctorate degree that is approved by the state of CA. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:37:20 -0500 Re: First Professional Doctorate (FPD) Michael Your quoting of constitutional law is incomplete. States have police powers but NOT when they step on Constitutional Rights and therein lies a prohibition of the states on individuals presenting/advertising Commercial Free Speech. Like it or not......as long as one gives full disclosure (even to an unaccredited or unrecognized degree) there is nothing you or the schools selling new night-trade-school degrees can do about it. Richard In a message dated 11/24/2009 3:32:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Remember that the constitution also grants states the rights to regulate its own professions and to make laws and rules that do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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