headaches

[Guest guest]

Scott,

 

This is more of an acupuncture answer than an herbal answer, but...

 

I get a lot of positive response from a particular protocol in treating

headaches, regardless of what the bianzheng is (which I know makes some

people here crazy, but...).

 

I use the wrist zones. Each zone corresponds with a different area of the

head, e.g., shaoyang, yangming, taiyang, etc. However, for severe

headaches, cluster headaches, or migraines, I usually use all six, often

bilaterally, even if the headaches are only on one side. I find that the

treatment also helps relax the neck in cases where stress and muscle tension

radiate up the occiput and cause or exacerbate the headache.

 

AFTER I try this treatment a couple of times to see if it is helping, then I

will add an herbal formula if necessary.

 

The article I read while in school recommended using 1.5 " 34 gauge needles.

This is VERY uncomfortable and, from my experience is unnecessary. I use 1 "

38 gauge seirins for this protocol (usually use 36 and 34 non-Seirins for

most other stuff). The needles should not be stimulated once placed, but

they should be threaded in pretty much up to the hilt and left in for about

45 minutes. Depending upon the location of the headache, I may also use LI

4 and GB 41 or 42, or some other points.

 

I have had some amazing results from this protocol, particularly with people

who've had severe, frequent, and patternless migraines for years and years

and have had no success in their many visits to pain clinics.

 

If anyone needs information on locating the zones, let me know and I'll go

on a hunt for the original article which does a better job of describing

their location than I can do.

 

Jeff

 

_______________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

[Guest guest]

I get a lot of positive response from a particular protocol in treating headaches, regardless of what the bianzheng is

>>>I would like to say that there is a big difference between herbal med and acupuncture as far as pattern diagnosis. For most conditions the state of the art with CM herbal med for now is pattern diagnosis. This I believe however will change with time

Alon

 

[Guest guest]

The article I read while in school recommended using 1.5" 34 gauge needles

>>>Done correctly the needling are almost sensationless. I have used 32 gauge for this as was recommended for years.

I would like to add that I have been doing wrist and ankle acupuncture for over 10 yr and strongly believe it to be on palliative

Alon

[Guest guest]

Jim

could not get the article

alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

state of the art with CM herbal med for now is pattern diagnosis. This

I believe however will change with time

> Alon

 

In what way? to a method based more on modern science? would it still

be differential or would it be disease oriented?

 

[Guest guest]

In what way? to a method based more on modern science? would it still be differential or would it be disease oriented?>>>>I believe that with time the CM medical community will develop specific differantionations based on BIOMEDICAL diseases (with some disease specific patterns when identified) that will be much more specific than the currently used theoretical process of finding TCM diseases with so called overlapping symptoms and then making some kind of therapeutic plan based on these fantasies (i.e. so called overlap of TCM disease and tissue and pathology specific biomedical disease). This will take time and a brake-out of some fixed ideas will be needed. But since at present TCM pattern differentiation, in real life clinical practice in truly ill patients, is way too unpredictable as it applies to Modern and Defined diseases, this process is unavoidable if TCM is really to survive in the west. May be this will be based on modern pharmacological as well as some kind of computer or laboratory patterns that will take into account individual variation. Only the future will tale. But since this is a clinical need it will come.

Alon

[Guest guest]

There is definitely a difference in acupuncture diagnosis and treatment

with herbal diagnosis and treatment. Treatment in acumoxa is based on

choosing the appropriate channels, with drainage and supplementation

(jing luo bian zheng). Herbal medicine on zang/fu or related bian

zheng/pattern differentiation.

 

How do you think this will changes with time, Alon?

 

 

On Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 09:31 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> I get a lot of positive response from a particular protocol in treating

> headaches, regardless of what the bianzheng is

> >>>I would like to say that there is a big difference between herbal

> med and acupuncture as far as pattern diagnosis. For most conditions

> the state of the art with CM herbal med for now is pattern diagnosis.

> This I believe however will change with time

> Alon

>  

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

There is definitely a difference in acupuncture diagnosis and treatment with herbal diagnosis and treatment. Treatment in acumoxa is based on choosing the appropriate channels, with drainage and supplementation (jing luo bian zheng). Herbal medicine on zang/fu or related bian zheng/pattern differentiation... Z'ev

>>>I usually get my best acupuncture treatment results when treating channel syndromes by including the points that target the zang/fu or related bian zheng/pattern (systemic distal points) as well as more targeted herbal therapy by including considerations of channel pathologies. I assume you do the same but were pointing out an emphasis rather than a mutually exclusionary approach. Dui ba?

Stephen

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Alon:

 

We can already acess a great deal of Western physiological

information when we use 5-Phases; especially when utilized with 3-

Depths and 5-Depths in pulses (Nan Jing, Chapters 4 and 5). As an

example, I uploaded my article, " Organs and their Associated

Pulses, " to the Files section. It is in Adobe PDF format.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> In what way? to a method based more on modern science? would it

still

> be differential or would it be disease oriented?

> >>>>I believe that with time the CM medical community will develop

specific differantionations based on BIOMEDICAL diseases (with some

disease specific patterns when identified) that will be much more

specific than the currently used theoretical process of finding TCM

diseases with so called overlapping symptoms and then making some

kind of therapeutic plan based on these fantasies (i.e. so called

overlap of TCM disease and tissue and pathology specific biomedical

disease). This will take time and a brake-out of some fixed ideas

will be needed. But since at present TCM pattern differentiation, in

real life clinical practice in truly ill patients, is way too

unpredictable as it applies to Modern and Defined diseases, this

process is unavoidable if TCM is really to survive in the west. May

be this will be based on modern pharmacological as well as some kind

of computer or laboratory patterns that will take into account

individual variation. Only the future will tale. But since this is a

clinical need it will come.

> Alon

[Guest guest]

C'est vrai, mon ami.

 

 

On Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 10:57 PM, stephen wrote:

 

>  

>

> There is definitely a difference in acupuncture diagnosis and treatment

> with herbal diagnosis and treatment. Treatment in acumoxa is based on

> choosing the appropriate channels, with drainage and supplementation

> (jing luo bian zheng). Herbal medicine on zang/fu or related bian

> zheng/pattern differentiation... Z'ev 

>  

> >>>I usually get my best acupuncture treatment results when treating

> channel syndromes by including the points that target the zang/fu or

> related bian zheng/pattern (systemic distal points) as well as more

> targeted herbal therapy by including considerations of channel

> pathologies.  I assume you do the same but were pointing out an

> emphasis rather than a mutually exclusionary approach.  Dui ba?

> Stephen  

>  

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Treatment in acumoxa is based on choosing the appropriate channels, with drainage and supplementation (jing luo bian zheng). Herbal medicine on zang/fu or related bian zheng/pattern differentiation.>>>>>That is not completely true as you can for example give herbs based on jing luo bian zheng. The way i think this will change is in the pattern diagnosis which will change to become more disease specific pattern specific diagnosis. Since one can not make a distinction for example for a headache that is due to Liver Qi stagnation due to life stresses and Liver Qi stagnation due to ligamentous insufficiency and because the outcome of both is totally different a new kind of disease/pattern diagnosis is going to have to emerge. And with it hopefully better more predictable outcomes

Alon

[Guest guest]

We can already access a great deal of Western physiological information when we use 5-Phases; especially when utilized with 3-Depths and 5-Depths in pulses (Nan Jing, Chapters 4 and 5). As an example, I uploaded my article, "Organs and their Associated Pulses," to the Files section. It is in Adobe PDF format.>>>>Jim

I believe its a question of practicality and totally agree with Todd on this issue. If a skill is not going to be accessible to the majority in the profession then we probably need to focused on those that can. Also its a question of reproducibility and reliability both of which I am very far from being convinced have been shown

Alon

[Guest guest]

" Reproducibility and reliability " are a matter of adequate training;

only remedial skills will be " accessible to the majority. " But here

I'm only interested in pulse, Chinese language, and other concepts

based on the classics---not the other 'energy medicine' fluff.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> We can already access a great deal of Western physiological

> information when we use 5-Phases; especially when utilized with 3-

> Depths and 5-Depths in pulses (Nan Jing, Chapters 4 and 5). As an

> example, I uploaded my article, " Organs and their Associated

> Pulses, " to the Files section. It is in Adobe PDF format.

> >>>>Jim

> I believe its a question of practicality and totally agree with on this issue. If a skill is not going to be accessible to the

majority in the profession then we probably need to focused on those

that can. Also its a question of reproducibility and reliability

both of which I am very far from being convinced have been shown

> Alon

[Guest guest]

not the other 'energy medicine' fluff

>>>No problem with that, except perhaps that when studied the some of energy stuff may prove more helpful or not. Since i do not do it i have no clue

Alon

[Guest guest]

Any suggestions based on real experience rather

than

> theory?

 

Scott,

 

My experience and treatment for tension headaches is based on the word

*tension*.

I understand that many headaches' etiology can be of an organic

nature, however, I found that in most cases, some good bodywork, with

moving cupping, Gua sha, and neck exercises have made the difference

between failure and success. For these cases, I prefer to use

acupuncture with shallow insertion. This, I believe, releases the

fascia and " tilts the ground " for manual work. If the condition is

chronic, and the patient's constitution permits it, I follow up with a

modified version of Chuan Xiong Cha Tiao San/Xiao Yao Wan. This is my

experience and hope it helps.

 

Fernando

 

, " scott_s_blunk " <jinyinhua@a...>

wrote:

> I am looking for advice on treating tension headaches along the GB

> channel. The pattern I commonly see is Liv qi Stagnation, not Liv

> Yang rising. The patients complain of one-sided headache, with

muscle

> spasms near GB 12 radiating up over the ear and into the temple. I

> can easily get acupunture to alleviate the pain for a day or three,

> but have not yet found any herbal formulas that work. So far I have

> tried Xiao Yao Wan, Shu Gan Wan and Tian Ma Gou Teng Wan. I

> particularly need herbs or combinations of herbs that relax the GB

> channel muscles. Any suggestions based on real experience rather

than

> theory?

>

> Scott

[Guest guest]

Any suggestions based on real experience rather than >>>>Probably the most important aspect is assessment of cervical functions and balance. If cervical and occipital cervical junctions are freely movable, and are not hyperbole, there shoud be no tension headache.

Alon

[Guest guest]

STOP consuming what is causing it, drink water and LOTS, do a Live juice fast. My son just did a parasite cleanse and has not had a headache since. GinaStacy Wilson <dragn_lady wrote: I know this has probably been bantered about for awhile now. But,with the pain I have been suffering off and on now for a month, Idon't think I can sit and search it out. Today, for the 3rd time inabout a month, I was down with a HUGE headache, to the point of icepacks, and throwing up. I do not want to go the route ofprescriptions again if I can help it, as those end up being dependedon and such. Out side of B12, what else can I take to help lessen theheadaches? These have been so bad, I have not even been able to burnmy lavender candles.

TIA, folks.Stacy

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Guest guest]

Have you seen a medical doctor about the cause of these headaches? Susan in kyGina Kopera <ginakopera1 wrote: STOP consuming what is causing it, drink water and LOTS, do a Live juice fast. My son just did a parasite cleanse and has not had a headache since. GinaStacy Wilson <dragn_lady wrote: I know this has probably been bantered about for awhile now. But,with the pain I have been suffering off and on now for a month, Idon't think I can sit and search it out. Today, for the 3rd time inabout a month, I was down with a HUGE headache, to the point of icepacks, and throwing

up. I do not want to go the route ofprescriptions again if I can help it, as those end up being dependedon and such. Out side of B12, what else can I take to help lessen theheadaches? These have been so bad, I have not even been able to burnmy lavender candles. TIA, folks.Stacy New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates.

[Guest guest]

I hate to state the obvious Susan, but most of us are here on this list

because we do NOT want to see medical doctors LOL. I've never yet known

an MD who could actually pinpoint a CAUSE of something, even if they

did look for it - which they usually don't. Most medical doctors only

know how to identify SYMPTOMS and know how to treat them!

Lisa de Haas

Senior Moderator

 

herbal remedies , susan <susan134 wrote:

>

> Have you seen a medical doctor about the cause of these headaches?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Stacy, I have had good results with migraines when I use niacin.

It is a vascodialator (sp?) When I feel a migraine coming on, or start

to have the halo vision I take one or two of them. Not the time

release kind, the regular kind. It definately lessons the headaches!

It makes your skin flush and " prickle " but that passes after a bit.

Hope this helps you, you have my sympathy. tang

 

 

herbal remedies , " Stacy Wilson " <dragn_lady

wrote:

>

> I know this has probably been bantered about for awhile now. But,

> with the pain I have been suffering off and on now for a month, I

> don't think I can sit and search it out. Today, for the 3rd time in

> about a month, I was down with a HUGE headache, to the point of ice

> packs, and throwing up. I do not want to go the route of

> prescriptions again if I can help it, as those end up being depended

> on and such. Out side of B12, what else can I take to help lessen the

> headaches? These have been so bad, I have not even been able to burn

> my lavender candles.

>

> TIA, folks.

>

> Stacy

>

[Guest guest]

Amen Lisa!! I ended up in the e.r. a couple months ago with a kidney

stone and they were appauled that I hadn't gone to a " real " Doc in 10

years! Oh my oh my...how can one live so long on herbs and things

without seeing a " real " Doc?? Immagine! tang

 

 

 

herbal remedies , " Lisa " <lisa wrote:

>

> I hate to state the obvious Susan, but most of us are here on this

list

> because we do NOT want to see medical doctors LOL. I've never yet

known

> an MD who could actually pinpoint a CAUSE of something, even if they

> did look for it - which they usually don't. Most medical doctors only

> know how to identify SYMPTOMS and know how to treat them!

> Lisa de Haas

> Senior Moderator

>

> herbal remedies , susan <susan134@> wrote:

> >

> > Have you seen a medical doctor about the cause of these headaches?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

VERY TRUE, but there could be something very wrong, it is NOT up to us to diagnose anything. We do need medical doctors ----be just sometimes. If all could work together that would be wonderful, but until that time comes....Let just say that the first thing an herbalist need to know is IF a medical doctor has been seen and if anything was found. SusanLisa <lisa wrote: I hate to state the obvious Susan, but most of us are here on this list because we do NOT want to see medical doctors LOL. I've never yet known an MD who could actually pinpoint a CAUSE of something, even if they did look for it - which they usually don't. Most medical doctors only know how to identify SYMPTOMS and know how to treat them!Lisa de HaasSenior Moderator--- In

herbal remedies , susan <susan134 wrote:>> Have you seen a medical doctor about the cause of these headaches?>

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

herbal remedies , " Stacy Wilson "

<dragn_lady wrote:

>

> I know this has probably been bantered about for awhile now. But,

> with the pain I have been suffering off and on now for a month, I

> don't think I can sit and search it out. Today, for the 3rd time in

> about a month, I was down with a HUGE headache, to the point of ice

> packs, and throwing up.

 

>These have been so bad, I have not even been able to burn

> my lavender candles.

> Stacy

 

*******

I don't know what type of lavender candles you are using, but could

they be contributing to your headaches? I know I can't even go near

a candle shop without getting a headache, and I know several other

people who develop respiratory distress near candles.

 

Most commercial candles nowadays are paraffin (derived from

petroleum) and are artificially colored and scented with more

petrochemicals. They release toxic particles in their fumes when

burned. Studies have shown that these candles are major causes of

indoor air pollution...and many of the chems released in the fumes

are known carcinogens. (benzene, toulene, etc.)

 

I have seen more and more " soy candles " offered, but many of them do

still use petrochemicals for color/scent.....check with the mfr if

you use these types of candles.

 

If you are using candles mostly for their ambient light, I would

recommend you try 100% pure beeswax candles (with no added

color/scent). Pure beeswax candles do have a light " natural " scent

when burned. Beeswax candles are more expensive tho, as the

petroleum wastes are so much cheaper to produce.

 

If you are using the candles just for the scent, try using an

electric simmer pot (or a pot on the stove) and simply simmer natural

scent releasers like orange peels, cinammon sticks, cloves, lavender

cuttings etc. in the water. Or simmer pure natural essential oils,

rather than any of those synthetic " fragrance " oils that are also

derived from petrochemicals.

 

Also, make sure that any wicks on the candles are 100% cloth/cotton

and do not have a wire center thru them. The metal cored wicks also

release bad toxins into the air.

 

I just thought I would throw this info out, in case the candles may

be part of the problem. Other possibilities would be to look at any

other items in the home that may be giving off toxic fumes (of which

there are many --especially chemical " air fresheners " or any laundry

or cleaning or personal care products that contain petrochemical

derived scents)

 

Hope this helps....

 

Jan / Michigan

[Guest guest]

Guaranteed that cigarette smoking and second hand smoking causes headaches. I know this through expierence. Clay.

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates.

[Guest guest]

Hi all... I'm a newbie on this list and I was reading about "headaches".... I currently take major pain killers for a more jaw/facial pain - vicodin and percacet (sp?) because my headaches/jaw/face pain is so intense. It's not tmj, more of a narrow upper jaw which they are saying might have to be surgically altered. So.... I need all the help i can get on natural muscle relaxers and pain relief... I HATE taking medications, and they don't always work... even the heavy duty pain pill doesn't do anything... so you know that the pain is intense..... Sorry to rehash all the ideas you all have put forward, but maybe with a little bit of history on me, you all might have some good suggestions... I have tried Lavendar oil on my neck/face for relief... that only works for about 10 minutes... I do use a nasal pot with warm salt water to give me sinus relief (which is all intertwined in this mess)...

 

Help???

 

Julie Brown

 

-

tangj2

herbal remedies

Monday, March 27, 2006 1:48 PM

Herbal Remedies - Re: headaches

Hi Stacy, I have had good results with migraines when I use niacin. It is a vascodialator (sp?) When I feel a migraine coming on, or start to have the halo vision I take one or two of them. Not the time release kind, the regular kind. It definately lessons the headaches! It makes your skin flush and "prickle" but that passes after a bit. Hope this helps you, you have my sympathy. tangherbal remedies , "Stacy Wilson" <dragn_lady wrote:>> I know this has probably been bantered about for awhile now. But,> with the pain I have been suffering off and on now for a month, I> don't think I can sit and search it out. Today, for the 3rd time in> about a month, I was down with a HUGE headache, to the point of ice> packs, and throwing up. I do not want to go the route of> prescriptions again if I can help it, as those end up being depended> on and such. Out side of B12, what else can I take to help lessen the> headaches? These have been so bad, I have not even been able to burn> my lavender candles. > > TIA, folks.> > Stacy>