Guest guest Report post Posted July 6, 2007 hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousness. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a):  Dear Rafal,  The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics.  They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps.  Regards,  tarun   - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a):  Dear Rafal,  cheer means cloth, not sari.  Regards,  Tarun  - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer.  To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'.  To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human.  Your question relates to human practices.  Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time.  The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known.  Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably.  So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately.  Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| |  Dear Rafal & Tijana,  I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count.  Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes???  They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap.  So also for the head-gear, or turbans.  These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'.  Regards,  Shailesh  sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes  hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ®       (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 6, 2007 Om Gurave Namah Dear memebers of the thread, Vastram dehine Shukra. The enitire phenomenon comes under the influence of the Shukra so folowing this line in scriptures something universal must be found. I think that Rafal raised good question as Vedic must be universal, if not than it`s something else. I don`t see how spirituality is different from any segment of life as spirit resides in everything or? One of the meanings of the word sarit in sanskrit is thread, so connection exist. The rest is for the experts to think about. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , " ~Tarun~ " <tarun.virgo wrote: > > Dear Anand ji, > > It was cotton or linen , but the thing is it was hand made cloth :-) > > as Bharat ji said > " " If the question pertains to what qualifies as a spiritual cloth - then, it would mean the one that has come after least harm to anyone. Let's say - cotton, jute, leafs, etc. Definitely not silk which comes from harming a whole load of insects. As a basic rule - just decide which disturbs the nature least and causes least harm to any living organism. " " > > The Term Saree is not the correct word, Vastra was to be used in those times ,and no where we can find the term saree. We now call them saree actually. > > Yes thats wht i asked in my previous mail to Rafal that , do he want to find wht Vedas say to wear or wht to wear and how to wear in Temples or Havan Yagya etc. > > If we go by term then it will be Angvastra, or more detailed, but Sari is not the exact term. > Saree is an updated thing which is worn in current age. > as Shailesh ji too said in his mail > > " The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. > " " > > > > > Regards, > > Tarun > > - > Anand Ravi > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 5:28 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > Om Namah Shivaya > > Dear Tarun, Namaste > > Cotton or Linen - I trust linen. Linen was used in Egypt for mummification too. Please correct me if > Iam wrong. > > In South India (Esp. Hindu and Nambootri) dhoti and saree for some special occation is tied in a specific > way. Is this very close to the ones done during the Vedic times. I remember they tied my dothi > to in this way during Upanayanam. > > Rgds > Anand > > > On 7/6/07, ~Tarun~ <tarun.virgo wrote: >  > > Dear Rafal, > > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. > > Regards, > > tarun > > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tarun, > > Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >  > > Dear Rafal, > > cheer means cloth, not sari. > > Regards, > > Tarun > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Shailesh, > > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca- Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? > > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. > > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > Dear Rafal, > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. > > Your question relates to human practices. > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > Regards, > > Shailesh > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes †" Dhoti or saree †" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti †" the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > Regards, > > > > Shailesh > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > sohamsa@ .com > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tijana, > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Thank You for help. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > Om Gurave Namah > Dear Rafal, > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long > history of sari. > One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today > (especially from the west) is accidental or half- understood. > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and > ornaments are important. > Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards, > Tijana > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who > were > > born in India . > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal@ > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > < starsuponme > wrote: > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not > vedic > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which > describe > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > tried to > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to > form of > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com < rafal@ ...> > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com < http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Shailesh C Chadha > > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 6, 2007 Dear Rafal and others.May this web-site indulge you all about clothing and textiles post vedic or 3000BChttp://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/textiles AnandOn 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousness. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal, The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics. They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. Regards, tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal, cheer means cloth, not sari. Regards, Tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. Your question relates to human practices. Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal & Tijana, I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. So also for the head-gear, or turbans. These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. Regards, Shailesh sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __ -- ThanksAnand Srivatsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 6, 2007 hraum namah adityaya Dear Anand, Im grateful. Many interesting informations. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com Anand Srivatsa napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal and others. May this web-site indulge you all about clothing and textiles post vedic or 3000BC http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/textiles Anand On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme (AT) wp (DOT) pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousness. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal,  The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics.  They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps.  Regards,  tarun   - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal,  cheer means cloth, not sari.  Regards,  Tarun  - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer.  To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'.  To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human.  Your question relates to human practices.  Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time.  The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known.  Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably.  So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately.  Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| |  Dear Rafal & Tijana,  I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count.  Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes???  They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap.  So also for the head-gear, or turbans.  These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'.  Regards,  Shailesh  sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes  hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa .. com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ®       (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __ -- Thanks Anand Srivatsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Namaste Sri RafalTruly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified " Vedic Dress " . Let me attempt to answer your questions: #1 What it means that something is Vedic?When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be " Vedic " . Since Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go against it, it can be called Vedic. #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing?Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm to anyone. #3 What means Vedic clothing? It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. Thanks and RegardsBharat On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousness. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal, The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics. They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. Regards, tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal, cheer means cloth, not sari. Regards, Tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. Your question relates to human practices. Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal & Tijana, I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. So also for the head-gear, or turbans. These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. Regards, Shailesh sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Namaste TijanaSpirit does not reside in everything. The correct statement is - Everything that is resides in the Lord (spirit, if you may call it). The knower of the above isn't going to ask about Vedic clothes. However, a person who more and more identifies with this knowledge that all that is is the Lord, because deeply sensitive. For him/her the entireity is an expression of his real Self. To cause pain to anything is like causing pain to oneself. It is for this reason, the least painful becomes Sattwic and more spiritual. This does not mean that people who wear cotton are spiritual. Just that people who tend to understand the truth of the first statement, tend to cause least harm. For the same reason fruits are most Sattwic, since they cause the least harm. So on and so forth.Thanks and Regards BharatOn 7/6/07, nix_nixen < nix_nixen wrote: Om Gurave Namah Dear memebers of the thread, Vastram dehine Shukra. The enitire phenomenon comes under the influence of the Shukra so folowing this line in scriptures something universal must be found. I think that Rafal raised good question as Vedic must be universal, if not than it`s something else. I don`t see how spirituality is different from any segment of life as spirit resides in everything or? One of the meanings of the word sarit in sanskrit is thread, so connection exist. The rest is for the experts to think about. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , " ~Tarun~ " <tarun.virgo wrote: > > Dear Anand ji, > > It was cotton or linen , but the thing is it was hand made cloth :-) > > as Bharat ji said > " " If the question pertains to what qualifies as a spiritual cloth - then, it would mean the one that has come after least harm to anyone. Let's say - cotton, jute, leafs, etc. Definitely not silk which comes from harming a whole load of insects. As a basic rule - just decide which disturbs the nature least and causes least harm to any living organism. " " > > The Term Saree is not the correct word, Vastra was to be used in those times ,and no where we can find the term saree. We now call them saree actually. > > Yes thats wht i asked in my previous mail to Rafal that , do he want to find wht Vedas say to wear or wht to wear and how to wear in Temples or Havan Yagya etc. > > If we go by term then it will be Angvastra, or more detailed, but Sari is not the exact term. > Saree is an updated thing which is worn in current age. > as Shailesh ji too said in his mail > > " The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. > " " > > > > > Regards, > > Tarun > > > > > > > > > - > Anand Ravi > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 5:28 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > Om Namah Shivaya > > Dear Tarun, Namaste > > Cotton or Linen - I trust linen. Linen was used in Egypt for mummification too. Please correct me if > Iam wrong. > > In South India (Esp. Hindu and Nambootri) dhoti and saree for some special occation is tied in a specific > way. Is this very close to the ones done during the Vedic times. I remember they tied my dothi > to in this way during Upanayanam. > > Rgds > Anand > > > On 7/6/07, ~Tarun~ <tarun.virgo wrote: >  > > Dear Rafal, > > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. > > Regards, > > tarun > > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tarun, > > Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >  > > Dear Rafal, > > cheer means cloth, not sari. > > Regards, > > Tarun > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Shailesh, > > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca- Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? > > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. > > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > Dear Rafal, > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. > > Your question relates to human practices. > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > Regards, > > Shailesh > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes †" Dhoti or saree †" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti †" the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > Regards, > > > > Shailesh > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > sohamsa@ .com > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tijana, > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Thank You for help. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > Om Gurave Namah > Dear Rafal, > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long > history of sari. > One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today > (especially from the west) is accidental or half- understood. > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and > ornaments are important. > Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards, > Tijana > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who > were > > born in India . > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal@ > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > < starsuponme > wrote: > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not > vedic > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which > describe > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > tried to > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to > form of > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com < rafal@ ...> > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com < http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Shailesh C Chadha > > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji, Thank You. #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in Vedas/Puranas it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule of the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be some philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt mean that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean that critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase Vedic Clothing. There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it mean spiritual people must wear it also? I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris their conciousness is better as they identify themselves with devotees of God. #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want to know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all times, or for all times. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): Namaste Sri Rafal Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified "Vedic Dress". Let me attempt to answer your questions: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be "Vedic". Since Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go against it, it can be called Vedic. #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm to anyone. #3 What means Vedic clothing? It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme (AT) wp (DOT) pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousness. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal,  The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics.  They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps.  Regards,  tarun   - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal,  cheer means cloth, not sari.  Regards,  Tarun  - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer.  To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'.  To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human.  Your question relates to human practices.  Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time.  The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known.  Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably.  So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately.  Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| |  Dear Rafal & Tijana,  I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count.  Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes???  They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap.  So also for the head-gear, or turbans.  These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'.  Regards,  Shailesh  sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes  hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa .. com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ®       (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __  Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Namaste Sri Rafal#1 If a clothing is specified in the Vedas, then, it would qualify as Vedic. It wouldn't render the simple clothing based on " least harm principle " as unvedic. #2 I wouldn't categorize. The main point is whether or not a person is understanding the Vedas, rather than wearing a particular dress. I have been to many ashrams and they all have a distinct Indian dress. I personally do not to the idea of using a dress to feel spiritual. Ofcourse, if one feels spiritual rather than " be spiritual " then, it is their choice. #3 I meant a historian shall be able to tell you what kind of clothes were prevalent at the time of the Vedas. The next step would be to ask different people on why such clothes were prevalent. Whether some were prescribed for a particular reason or not. Thanks and RegardsBharat On 7/7/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji, Thank You. #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in Vedas/Puranas it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule of the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be some philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt mean that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean that critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase Vedic Clothing. There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it mean spiritual people must wear it also? I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris their conciousness is better as they identify themselves with devotees of God. #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want to know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all times, or for all times. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): Namaste Sri Rafal Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified " Vedic Dress " . Let me attempt to answer your questions: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be " Vedic " . Since Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go against it, it can be called Vedic. #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm to anyone. #3 What means Vedic clothing? It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousness. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal, The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics. They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. Regards, tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal, cheer means cloth, not sari. Regards, Tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. Your question relates to human practices. Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal & Tijana, I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. So also for the head-gear, or turbans. These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. Regards, Shailesh sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa .. com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharat, #1 Yes, right #2 Yes, existence of main point dont exclude other points (detailed). I dont feel this type of discussion as conclusive, so I know what You mean. If one identify oneself with devotee of God then His service can be on higher level - that was the sense of feeling. #3 "Whether some were prescribed for a particular reason or not" - That is the question! Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): Namaste Sri Rafal #1 If a clothing is specified in the Vedas, then, it would qualify as Vedic. It wouldn't render the simple clothing based on "least harm principle" as unvedic. #2 I wouldn't categorize. The main point is whether or not a person is understanding the Vedas, rather than wearing a particular dress. I have been to many ashrams and they all have a distinct Indian dress. I personally do not to the idea of using a dress to feel spiritual. Ofcourse, if one feels spiritual rather than "be spiritual" then, it is their choice. #3 I meant a historian shall be able to tell you what kind of clothes were prevalent at the time of the Vedas. The next step would be to ask different people on why such clothes were prevalent. Whether some were prescribed for a particular reason or not. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 7/7/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji, Thank You. #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in Vedas/Puranas it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule of the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be some philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt mean that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean that critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase Vedic Clothing. There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it mean spiritual people must wear it also? I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris their conciousness is better as they identify themselves with devotees of God. #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want to know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all times, or for all times. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): Namaste Sri Rafal Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified "Vedic Dress". Let me attempt to answer your questions: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be "Vedic". Since Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go against it, it can be called Vedic. #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm to anyone. #3 What means Vedic clothing? It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousnes s. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal,  The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics.  They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps.  Regards,  tarun   - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): Dear Rafal,  cheer means cloth, not sari.  Regards,  Tarun  - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ ..com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer.  To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'.  To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human.  Your question relates to human practices.  Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time.  The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known.  Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably.  So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately.  Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| |  Dear Rafal & Tijana,  I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count.  Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes???  They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap.  So also for the head-gear, or turbans.  These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'.  Regards,  Shailesh  sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes  hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa .. com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ®       (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __   Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Om Gurave Namah Pranam Bharatji, I see your statement correct if we say that all resides with Lord as If everything that is resides in the Lord it can not be separated from Him which means that everything that is is the same with the Lord so He resides in everything also being everything. " The luminosity of Atman consists in the manifestation of all objects. " -tat tvam asi (AdiShankara) Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " <astrologyhindu wrote: > > Namaste Tijana > Spirit does not reside in everything. The correct statement is - Everything > that is resides in the Lord (spirit, if you may call it). > > The knower of the above isn't going to ask about Vedic clothes. However, a > person who more and more identifies with this knowledge that all that is is > the Lord, because deeply sensitive. For him/her the entireity is an > expression of his real Self. To cause pain to anything is like causing pain > to oneself. It is for this reason, the least painful becomes Sattwic and > more spiritual. > > This does not mean that people who wear cotton are spiritual. Just that > people who tend to understand the truth of the first statement, tend to > cause least harm. > > For the same reason fruits are most Sattwic, since they cause the least > harm. So on and so forth. > > Thanks and Regards > Bharat > > > > > On 7/6/07, nix_nixen <nix_nixen wrote: > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > Dear memebers of the thread, > > Vastram dehine Shukra. The enitire phenomenon comes under the > > influence of the Shukra so folowing this line in scriptures something > > universal must be found. > > I think that Rafal raised good question as Vedic must be universal, > > if not than it`s something else. > > I don`t see how spirituality is different from any segment of life as > > spirit resides in everything or? > > One of the meanings of the word sarit in sanskrit is thread, so > > connection exist. The rest is for the experts to think about. > > Warm regards, > > Tijana > > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa% 40>, " ~Tarun~ " < > > tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Anand ji, > > > > > > It was cotton or linen , but the thing is it was hand made cloth :-) > > > > > > as Bharat ji said > > > " " If the question pertains to what qualifies as a spiritual cloth - > > then, it would mean the one that has come after least harm to anyone. > > Let's say - cotton, jute, leafs, etc. Definitely not silk which comes > > from harming a whole load of insects. As a basic rule - just decide > > which disturbs the nature least and causes least harm to any living > > organism. " " > > > > > > The Term Saree is not the correct word, Vastra was to be used in > > those times ,and no where we can find the term saree. We now call > > them saree actually. > > > > > > Yes thats wht i asked in my previous mail to Rafal that , do he > > want to find wht Vedas say to wear or wht to wear and how to wear in > > Temples or Havan Yagya etc. > > > > > > If we go by term then it will be Angvastra, or more detailed, but > > Sari is not the exact term. > > > Saree is an updated thing which is worn in current age. > > > as Shailesh ji too said in his mail > > > > > > " The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer > > to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. > > > " " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Anand Ravi > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 5:28 PM > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivaya > > > > > > Dear Tarun, Namaste > > > > > > Cotton or Linen - I trust linen. Linen was used in Egypt for > > mummification too. Please correct me if > > > Iam wrong. > > > > > > In South India (Esp. Hindu and Nambootri) dhoti and saree for > > some special occation is tied in a specific > > > way. Is this very close to the ones done during the Vedic times. > > I remember they tied my dothi > > > to in this way during Upanayanam. > > > > > > Rgds > > > Anand > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, ~Tarun~ <tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > >  > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching > > that time. > > > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > > > they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > > > > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope > > this is helps. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > tarun > > > > > > > > > - > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > Dear Tarun, > > > > > > Yes, what is the difference between current and those > > described in Vedas - clear question. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal@ > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > >  > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > cheer means cloth, not sari. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > - > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > Dear Shailesh, > > > > > > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca- > > Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. > > Agree? > > > > > > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. > > So clothes also. > > > > > > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal@ > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - > > to answer. > > > > > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > > > > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent > > divine knowledge - not human. > > > > > > Your question relates to human practices. > > > > > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no > > written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is > > no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > > > > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - > > generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. I do not recall > > any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge > > is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' > > episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. > > > > > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas > > represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' > > knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS > > interchangeably. > > > > > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > > > > > > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest > > form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > > > > > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > > > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this > > count. > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes †" > > Dhoti or saree †" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman > > clothes??? > > > > > > > > > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore > > unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti †" the > > only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > > > > > > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > > > > > > > > > These changed with the time, with the development > > of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa@ > > . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > > > sohamsa@ .com > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > Dear Tijana, > > > > > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious > > from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > > > > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND > > DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > > > > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC > > CLOTHING. > > > > > > Thank You for help. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > > Dear Rafal, > > > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional > > clothing than we can > > > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the > > Mahabharata- the famous > > > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue > > that proves long > > > history of sari. > > > One of the important thing about sari and other > > traditional clothes > > > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. > > Modifications were > > > done with coming of the Muslims and English. > > Probably only Indian > > > scholars of history of clothing and costume could > > say what is > > > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > > > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together > > a specific message > > > and honestly i think that choice of saris and > > dhotis of people today > > > (especially from the west) is accidental or half- > > understood. > > > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the > > clothes and > > > ornaments are important. > > > Hope this helps in some way. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tijana > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz > > <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes > > are connected to > > > culture > > > > obviously. Differentation based on role in > > society doesnt negate > > > fact > > > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. > > I wanted to know how > > > much > > > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis > > and saris (esp > > > those > > > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very > > easy for those who > > > were > > > > born in India . > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > > > > > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a > > pramana to Satyam, > > > isn't > > > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya > > prescribed ochre > > > robes > > > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men > > and Sanyasis have > > > all > > > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore > > different clothes. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ > > wp.pl > > > > > < starsuponme > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one > > debate with few > > > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and > > sari are not > > > vedic > > > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical > > slokas which > > > describe > > > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing > > Dhoti/Sari? I > > > tried to > > > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit > > word for Sari nor > > > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to > > name, but to > > > form of > > > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com < rafal@ ...> > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com < > > http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Shailesh C Chadha > > > > > > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > > > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > > > Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > > > (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > > > ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are > > and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those > > who matter don't mind. > > > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. > > Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Om Gurave Namah Dear Bharatji, what do you mean by-in the time of the Vedas? The time when they were writed down? Please correct me on this if you think it wrong-Vedas as an expression of the universal knowledge don`t have beginning. What is subdued to time is our understanding of that knowledge and it is changing from age to age. The essence of the Veda remains the same. It is we who are reading it and understanding it different. This was my point when i said that Vedic must be universal as if not then it falls into the maya of historic experience. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > #1 Yes, right > > #2 Yes, existence of main point dont exclude other points (detailed). I > dont feel this type of discussion as conclusive, so I know what You > mean. If one identify oneself with devotee of God then His service can > be on higher level - that was the sense of feeling. > > #3 " Whether some were prescribed for a particular reason or not " - That > is the question! > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > #1 If a clothing is specified in the Vedas, then, it would qualify as > > Vedic. It wouldn't render the simple clothing based on " least harm > > principle " as unvedic. > > > > #2 I wouldn't categorize. The main point is whether or not a person is > > understanding the Vedas, rather than wearing a particular dress. I > > have been to many ashrams and they all have a distinct Indian dress. I > > personally do not to the idea of using a dress to feel > > spiritual. Ofcourse, if one feels spiritual rather than " be spiritual " > > then, it is their choice. > > > > #3 I meant a historian shall be able to tell you what kind of clothes > > were prevalent at the time of the Vedas. The next step would be to ask > > different people on why such clothes were prevalent. Whether some were > > prescribed for a particular reason or not. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > On 7/7/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme> wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharatji, > > > > Thank You. > > > > #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in Vedas/Puranas > > it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at > > least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as > > stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule of > > the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be some > > philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together > > > > #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt mean > > that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean that > > critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase Vedic > > Clothing. > > > > There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it > > mean spiritual people must wear it also? > > > > I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris their > > conciousness is better as they identify themselves with devotees > > of God. > > > > #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want to > > know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all > > times, or for all times. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): > > > >> Namaste Sri Rafal > >> > >> > >> Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified " Vedic > >> Dress " . Let me attempt to answer your questions: > >> > >> #1 What it means that something is Vedic? > >> When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For > >> example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or > >> Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic > >> Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. > >> > >> If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely > >> Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge > >> contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for > >> Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be " Vedic " . Since > >> Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go > >> against it, it can be called Vedic. > >> > >> #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? > >> Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many > >> strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by > >> calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a > >> categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by > >> those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm > >> to anyone. > >> > >> #3 What means Vedic clothing? > >> It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could > >> be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of > >> the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. > >> > >> Thanks and Regards > >> Bharat > >> > >> > >> On 7/6/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > >> <starsuponme> wrote: > >> > >> *hraum namah adityaya* > >> > >> Dear Bharatji & others, > >> > >> Thank You. > >> > >> Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. > >> One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic > >> Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari > >> are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind > >> of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because > >> it helps in spiritual culture/conciousnes s. > >> > >> So: > >> > >> #1 What it means that something is Vedic? > >> > >> #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? > >> > >> #3 What means Vedic clothing? > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Rafal Gendarz > >> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > >> > >> > >> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > >> > >> > >> ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >>> > >>> Dear Rafal, > >>> > >>> The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching > >>> that time. > >>> Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > >>> they were to use cotton made fabrics. > >>> > >>> They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope > >>> this is helps. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> tarun > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> ** Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme > >>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > >>> <sohamsa > > >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > >>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > >>> > >>> *hraum namah adityaya* > >>> > >>> Dear Tarun, > >>> > >>> Yes, what is the difference between current and those > >>> described in Vedas - clear question. > >>> > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Rafal Gendarz > >>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > >>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > >>> > >>> > >>> ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >>> > >>>> Dear Rafal, > >>>> > >>>> cheer means cloth, not sari. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Tarun > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - > >>>> ** Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme > >>>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > >>>> <sohamsa > > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > >>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > >>>> > >>>> *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>> > >>>> Dear Shailesh, > >>>> > >>>> #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana > >>>> (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description > >>>> then our problem is over. Agree? > >>>> > >>>> #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to > >>>> humans. So clothes also. > >>>> > >>>> #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Rafal Gendarz > >>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > >>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > >>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > >>>> > >>>>> *|| Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | * > >>>>> > >>>>> ** > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Rafal, > >>>>> > >>>>> Your question is very difficult - almost > >>>>> impossible - to answer. > >>>>> > >>>>> To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC > >>>>> TIME'. > >>>>> > >>>>> To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they > >>>>> represent divine knowledge - not human. > >>>>> > >>>>> Your question relates to human practices. > >>>>> > >>>>> Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there > >>>>> were no written books or pictorial representations > >>>>> at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the > >>>>> clothing used at that time. > >>>>> > >>>>> The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - > >>>>> generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > >>>>> like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , > >>>>> etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of > >>>>> clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all > >>>>> that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, > >>>>> 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so > >>>>> welll-known. > >>>>> > >>>>> Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent > >>>>> 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the > >>>>> 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the > >>>>> terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, the question may remain unresolved; > >>>>> unfortunately. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> /Shailesh /// > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 7/6/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > >>>>> <starsuponme> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > >>>>> > >>>>> Tarun: So which state of India represents > >>>>> closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > >>>>> > >>>>> Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> Rafal Gendarz > >>>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > >>>>> <rafal > >>>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > >>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > >>>>> > >>>>>> *|| Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Rafal & Tijana, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on > >>>>>> this count. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes > >>>>>> †" Dhoti or saree †" with the ancient Egyptian, > >>>>>> Greece or even Roman clothes??? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> They all seem so similar - all of them wore > >>>>>> unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the > >>>>>> traditional dhoti †" the only difference was > >>>>>> the type, and direction, of the wrap. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> These changed with the time, with the > >>>>>> development of tailoring skills, and with the > >>>>>> local 'fashion'. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> /Shailesh /// > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> **sohamsa@ .com > >>>>>> [sohamsa] *On Behalf > >>>>>> Of *Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > >>>>>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> *hraum namah adityaya * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Tijana, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so > >>>>>> obvious from the sastras that I cant > >>>>>> understand their arguments fully. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND > >>>>>> DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Therefore wanted to grasp information about > >>>>>> VEDIC CLOTHING. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank You for help. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > >>>>>> <rafal > >>>>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > >>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Om Gurave Namah > >>>>>>> Dear Rafal, > >>>>>>> i`m sure there`s much more on traditional > >>>>>>> clothing than we can > >>>>>>> imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the > >>>>>>> Mahabharata- the famous > >>>>>>> story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s > >>>>>>> virtue that proves long > >>>>>>> history of sari. > >>>>>>> One of the important thing about sari and > >>>>>>> other traditional clothes > >>>>>>> is believing that the unstitched fabric is > >>>>>>> pure. Modifications were > >>>>>>> done with coming of the Muslims and English. > >>>>>>> Probably only Indian > >>>>>>> scholars of history of clothing and costume > >>>>>>> could say what is > >>>>>>> traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > >>>>>>> Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring > >>>>>>> together a specific message > >>>>>>> and honestly i think that choice of saris > >>>>>>> and dhotis of people today > >>>>>>> (especially from the west) is accidental or > >>>>>>> half-understood. > >>>>>>> As for Devatas my guess is that the color of > >>>>>>> the clothes and > >>>>>>> ornaments are important. > >>>>>>> Hope this helps in some way. > >>>>>>> Warm regards, > >>>>>>> Tijana > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> sohamsa@ .com > >>>>>>> <sohamsa%40>, Rafal > >>>>>>> Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Dear Bharat, > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. > >>>>>>> Clothes are connected to > >>>>>>> culture > >>>>>>> > obviously. Differentation based on role in > >>>>>>> society doesnt negate > >>>>>>> fact > >>>>>>> > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or > >>>>>>> not. I wanted to know how > >>>>>>> much > >>>>>>> > Devatas clothes are connected to current > >>>>>>> dhotis and saris (esp > >>>>>>> those > >>>>>>> > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be > >>>>>>> very easy for those who > >>>>>>> were > >>>>>>> > born in India . > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Regards, > >>>>>>> > Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>>> > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>>>> > email: rafal@ > >>>>>>> > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa/> . com > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Namaste Sri Rafal > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as > >>>>>>> a pramana to Satyam, > >>>>>>> isn't > >>>>>>> > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi > >>>>>>> Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > >>>>>>> robes > >>>>>>> > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned > >>>>>>> men and Sanyasis have > >>>>>>> all > >>>>>>> > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all > >>>>>>> wore different clothes. > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Thanks and Regards > >>>>>>> > > Bharat > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ > >>>>>>> wp.pl > >>>>>>> > > <starsuponme > >>>>>>> <starsuponme>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Dear Jyotishas, > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Could you help me with one issue? I have > >>>>>>> one debate with few > >>>>>>> > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti > >>>>>>> and sari are not > >>>>>>> vedic > >>>>>>> > > clothes. Could You give me some classical > >>>>>>> slokas which > >>>>>>> describe > >>>>>>> > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women > >>>>>>> wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > >>>>>>> tried to > >>>>>>> > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no > >>>>>>> Sanskrit word for Sari nor > >>>>>>> > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached > >>>>>>> to name, but to > >>>>>>> form of > >>>>>>> > > that clothing. > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Regards, > >>>>>>> > > Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>>> > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>>>> > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ...> > >>>>>>> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa/>. com > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa. com > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Shailesh C Chadha > >>>>> > >>>>> #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > >>>>> Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > >>>>> Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > >>>>> (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > >>>>> ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you > >>>>> are and say what you feel because those who mind > >>>>> don't matter and those who matter don't mind. > >>>>> - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. > >>>>> Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > >>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __ > >>>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Namaste TijanaI agree it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to fix the time of " Knowledge " (Vedas). I guess for history purposes and purpose of the discussion on Vedic Clothes, we can think of it as the time period when Sri Veda Vyasa compiled the Vedas. The time before him was also Vedic and that time continues for many now too. This is difficult to grasp for most. So for " practical " purposes time when Upanishads were taught to students desiring moksha, and in a general sense the purpose of the Vedas was not forgotten as it is now, we can call it the Vedic time period. Ofcourse Vedas are universal as Sat can never be Asat and Vedas are the pramana. It is good to know that you are studying this subject. With your thinking and calibre, I think you should study it seriously, if not doing so already, under the guidance of an able Gurudev. Thanks and RegardsBharatOn 7/7/07, nix_nixen <nix_nixen wrote: Om Gurave Namah Dear Bharatji, what do you mean by-in the time of the Vedas? The time when they were writed down? Please correct me on this if you think it wrong-Vedas as an expression of the universal knowledge don`t have beginning. What is subdued to time is our understanding of that knowledge and it is changing from age to age. The essence of the Veda remains the same. It is we who are reading it and understanding it different. This was my point when i said that Vedic must be universal as if not then it falls into the maya of historic experience. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > #1 Yes, right > > #2 Yes, existence of main point dont exclude other points (detailed). I > dont feel this type of discussion as conclusive, so I know what You > mean. If one identify oneself with devotee of God then His service can > be on higher level - that was the sense of feeling. > > #3 " Whether some were prescribed for a particular reason or not " - That > is the question! > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > #1 If a clothing is specified in the Vedas, then, it would qualify as > > Vedic. It wouldn't render the simple clothing based on " least harm > > principle " as unvedic. > > > > #2 I wouldn't categorize. The main point is whether or not a person is > > understanding the Vedas, rather than wearing a particular dress. I > > have been to many ashrams and they all have a distinct Indian dress. I > > personally do not to the idea of using a dress to feel > > spiritual. Ofcourse, if one feels spiritual rather than " be spiritual " > > then, it is their choice. > > > > #3 I meant a historian shall be able to tell you what kind of clothes > > were prevalent at the time of the Vedas. The next step would be to ask > > different people on why such clothes were prevalent. Whether some were > > prescribed for a particular reason or not. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > On 7/7/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme> wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharatji, > > > > Thank You. > > > > #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in Vedas/Puranas > > it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at > > least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as > > stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule of > > the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be some > > philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together > > > > #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt mean > > that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean that > > critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase Vedic > > Clothing. > > > > There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it > > mean spiritual people must wear it also? > > > > I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris their > > conciousness is better as they identify themselves with devotees > > of God. > > > > #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want to > > know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all > > times, or for all times. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): > > > >> Namaste Sri Rafal > >> > >> > >> Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified " Vedic > >> Dress " . Let me attempt to answer your questions: > >> > >> #1 What it means that something is Vedic? > >> When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For > >> example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or > >> Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic > >> Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. > >> > >> If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely > >> Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge > >> contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for > >> Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be " Vedic " . Since > >> Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go > >> against it, it can be called Vedic. > >> > >> #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? > >> Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many > >> strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by > >> calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a > >> categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by > >> those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm > >> to anyone. > >> > >> #3 What means Vedic clothing? > >> It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could > >> be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of > >> the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. > >> > >> Thanks and Regards > >> Bharat > >> > >> > >> On 7/6/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > >> <starsuponme> wrote: > >> > >> *hraum namah adityaya* > >> > >> Dear Bharatji & others, > >> > >> Thank You. > >> > >> Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. > >> One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic > >> Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari > >> are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind > >> of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because > >> it helps in spiritual culture/conciousnes s. > >> > >> So: > >> > >> #1 What it means that something is Vedic? > >> > >> #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? > >> > >> #3 What means Vedic clothing? > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Rafal Gendarz > >> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > >> > >> > >> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > >> > >> > >> ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >>> > >>> Dear Rafal, > >>> > >>> The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching > >>> that time. > >>> Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > >>> they were to use cotton made fabrics. > >>> > >>> They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope > >>> this is helps. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> tarun > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> ** Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme > >>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > >>> <sohamsa > > >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > >>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > >>> > >>> *hraum namah adityaya* > >>> > >>> Dear Tarun, > >>> > >>> Yes, what is the difference between current and those > >>> described in Vedas - clear question. > >>> > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Rafal Gendarz > >>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > >>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > >>> > >>> > >>> ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >>> > >>>> Dear Rafal, > >>>> > >>>> cheer means cloth, not sari. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Tarun > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - > >>>> ** Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme > >>>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > >>>> <sohamsa > > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > >>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > >>>> > >>>> *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>> > >>>> Dear Shailesh, > >>>> > >>>> #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana > >>>> (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description > >>>> then our problem is over. Agree? > >>>> > >>>> #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to > >>>> humans. So clothes also. > >>>> > >>>> #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Rafal Gendarz > >>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal > >>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > >>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > >>>> > >>>>> *|| Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | * > >>>>> > >>>>> ** > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Rafal, > >>>>> > >>>>> Your question is very difficult - almost > >>>>> impossible - to answer. > >>>>> > >>>>> To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC > >>>>> TIME'. > >>>>> > >>>>> To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they > >>>>> represent divine knowledge - not human. > >>>>> > >>>>> Your question relates to human practices. > >>>>> > >>>>> Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there > >>>>> were no written books or pictorial representations > >>>>> at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the > >>>>> clothing used at that time. > >>>>> > >>>>> The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - > >>>>> generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > >>>>> like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , > >>>>> etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of > >>>>> clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all > >>>>> that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, > >>>>> 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so > >>>>> welll-known. > >>>>> > >>>>> Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent > >>>>> 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the > >>>>> 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the > >>>>> terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, the question may remain unresolved; > >>>>> unfortunately. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> /Shailesh /// > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 7/6/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > >>>>> <starsuponme> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > >>>>> > >>>>> Tarun: So which state of India represents > >>>>> closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > >>>>> > >>>>> Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> Rafal Gendarz > >>>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > >>>>> <rafal > >>>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > >>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > >>>>> > >>>>>> *|| Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Rafal & Tijana, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on > >>>>>> this count. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes > >>>>>> �€ " Dhoti or saree �€ " with the ancient Egyptian, > >>>>>> Greece or even Roman clothes??? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> They all seem so similar - all of them wore > >>>>>> unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the > >>>>>> traditional dhoti �€ " the only difference was > >>>>>> the type, and direction, of the wrap. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> These changed with the time, with the > >>>>>> development of tailoring skills, and with the > >>>>>> local 'fashion'. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> /Shailesh /// > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> **sohamsa@ .com > >>>>>> [sohamsa] *On Behalf > >>>>>> Of *Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > >>>>>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> *hraum namah adityaya * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Tijana, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so > >>>>>> obvious from the sastras that I cant > >>>>>> understand their arguments fully. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND > >>>>>> DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Therefore wanted to grasp information about > >>>>>> VEDIC CLOTHING. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank You for help. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > >>>>>> <rafal > >>>>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > >>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Om Gurave Namah > >>>>>>> Dear Rafal, > >>>>>>> i`m sure there`s much more on traditional > >>>>>>> clothing than we can > >>>>>>> imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the > >>>>>>> Mahabharata- the famous > >>>>>>> story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s > >>>>>>> virtue that proves long > >>>>>>> history of sari. > >>>>>>> One of the important thing about sari and > >>>>>>> other traditional clothes > >>>>>>> is believing that the unstitched fabric is > >>>>>>> pure. Modifications were > >>>>>>> done with coming of the Muslims and English. > >>>>>>> Probably only Indian > >>>>>>> scholars of history of clothing and costume > >>>>>>> could say what is > >>>>>>> traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > >>>>>>> Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring > >>>>>>> together a specific message > >>>>>>> and honestly i think that choice of saris > >>>>>>> and dhotis of people today > >>>>>>> (especially from the west) is accidental or > >>>>>>> half-understood. > >>>>>>> As for Devatas my guess is that the color of > >>>>>>> the clothes and > >>>>>>> ornaments are important. > >>>>>>> Hope this helps in some way. > >>>>>>> Warm regards, > >>>>>>> Tijana > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> sohamsa@ .com > >>>>>>> <sohamsa%40 >, Rafal > >>>>>>> Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Dear Bharat, > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. > >>>>>>> Clothes are connected to > >>>>>>> culture > >>>>>>> > obviously. Differentation based on role in > >>>>>>> society doesnt negate > >>>>>>> fact > >>>>>>> > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or > >>>>>>> not. I wanted to know how > >>>>>>> much > >>>>>>> > Devatas clothes are connected to current > >>>>>>> dhotis and saris (esp > >>>>>>> those > >>>>>>> > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be > >>>>>>> very easy for those who > >>>>>>> were > >>>>>>> > born in India . > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Regards, > >>>>>>> > Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>>> > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>>>> > email: rafal@ > >>>>>>> > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa/> . com > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Namaste Sri Rafal > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as > >>>>>>> a pramana to Satyam, > >>>>>>> isn't > >>>>>>> > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi > >>>>>>> Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > >>>>>>> robes > >>>>>>> > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned > >>>>>>> men and Sanyasis have > >>>>>>> all > >>>>>>> > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all > >>>>>>> wore different clothes. > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Thanks and Regards > >>>>>>> > > Bharat > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ > >>>>>>> wp.pl > >>>>>>> > > <starsuponme > >>>>>>> <starsuponme>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > *hraum namah adityaya* > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Dear Jyotishas, > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Could you help me with one issue? I have > >>>>>>> one debate with few > >>>>>>> > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti > >>>>>>> and sari are not > >>>>>>> vedic > >>>>>>> > > clothes. Could You give me some classical > >>>>>>> slokas which > >>>>>>> describe > >>>>>>> > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women > >>>>>>> wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > >>>>>>> tried to > >>>>>>> > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no > >>>>>>> Sanskrit word for Sari nor > >>>>>>> > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached > >>>>>>> to name, but to > >>>>>>> form of > >>>>>>> > > that clothing. > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Regards, > >>>>>>> > > Rafal Gendarz > >>>>>>> > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > >>>>>>> > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ...> > >>>>>>> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa/>. com > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa. com > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Shailesh C Chadha > >>>>> > >>>>> #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > >>>>> Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > >>>>> Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > >>>>> (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > >>>>> ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you > >>>>> are and say what you feel because those who mind > >>>>> don't matter and those who matter don't mind. > >>>>> - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. > >>>>> Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > >>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __ > >>>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Dear Sailesh, What is your reference, or source of information regarding ancient greeks and egyptians wearing unstiched clothes? Forget about just documentry evidence, there is physical evidence in terms of ancient clothes retrieved from burial sites. Not just royality but even poor ancient egyptians wore stitched clothes. I hardly think a purely " visual " comparison of what supposed pictures look like between these 3 cultures warrants such a conclusion, or the extrapolation that current sari dhoti clothing is non vedic. Whether it is or isn't non vedic clothing, i don't know. peace charu sohamsa , " Shailesh C Chadha " <scchadha wrote: > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya|| > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes - Dhoti or saree - with the > ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely > resembling the traditional dhoti - the only difference was the type, and > direction, of the wrap. > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and > with the local 'fashion'. > > > > Regards, > > > > Shailesh > > > > _____ > > sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of > Rafal Gendarz > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > sohamsa > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tijana, > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I > cant understand their arguments fully. > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with > VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Thank You for help. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) <rafal com > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. <http://www.rohinaa.com> com > > nix_nixen napisa³(a): > > Om Gurave Namah > Dear Rafal, > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata-the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long > history of sari. > One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today > (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and > ornaments are important. > Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards, > Tijana > > sohamsa@ <sohamsa%40> .com, Rafal > Gendarz <starsuponme@> wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who > were > > born in India. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal@ > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > <starsuponme@>> wrote: > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not > vedic > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which > describe > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > tried to > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to > form of > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@> > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. > <http://www.rohinaa.com> com> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Dear Tarun, About your last sentence asking about the colour orange.... Orange is not our vedic/sacred colour. Orange is the colour worn by renouciates, by brahmcharis, by sanyaasis. That does not make them vedic or sacred. Rishis of old if they were married did not wear orange. The reason for orange is that this color supresses venus, supresses ojas and therefore assists in giving up all that is associated with venus/shukra. Sex,and rajas guna things and activites, al the things that a celibate and/or sanyaasi has to give up. peace charu sohamsa , " ~Tarun~ " <tarun.virgo wrote: > > Dear Scholars, > > The Rishis were to wear different clothes, than the Kshatriya, > The general people / farmer / traders, they were to wear different clothes. > The fabric used was different. > > The region, like the Kashi vishwanath 's traditional clothes or say the Priest / Pujari wear different clothes than the south india. > The Gujrati Clothes / Punjabi Clothes / Marathi Culture, Rajasthani Culture. West Bengal, Kashmir. > each state have different type of traditional clothing. > > The current Sari and Dhoti donot have direct relation with Vedic but they have relation to the culture of the state. > Sari is wore in different styles in each state. > and the similar thing among all the rituals followed in india is the COLOUR, and the colour can be termed as Vedic not the clothes. > Nepal is pure Hindu Country and there culture is also different. > > Do Someone knows why Orange is our sacred / Vedic colour ?????? neither red, nor green nor white ... > > Regards, > > Tarun > > > > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tijana, > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Thank You for help. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > nix_nixen napisal(a): > > Om Gurave Namah > Dear Rafal, > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata-the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long > history of sari. > One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today > (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and > ornaments are important. > Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards, > Tijana > > sohamsa , Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@> wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who > were > > born in India. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal@ > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > <starsuponme@>> wrote: > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not > vedic > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which > describe > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > tried to > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to > form of > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@> > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Dear Tarun, what is your reference for this seemingly very clear cut definite answer? peace charu sohamsa , " ~Tarun~ " <tarun.virgo wrote: > > Dear Rafal, > > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. > > Regards, > > tarun > > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tarun, > > Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >  > > Dear Rafal, > > cheer means cloth, not sari. > > Regards, > > Tarun > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Shailesh, > > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? > > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. > > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > Dear Rafal, > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. > > Your question relates to human practices. > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > Regards, > > Shailesh > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes †" Dhoti or saree †" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti †" the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > Regards, > > > > Shailesh > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > sohamsa@ .com > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tijana, > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Thank You for help. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > Om Gurave Namah > Dear Rafal, > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long > history of sari. > One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today > (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and > ornaments are important. > Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards, > Tijana > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who > were > > born in India . > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal@ > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not > vedic > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which > describe > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > tried to > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to > form of > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ...> > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Shailesh C Chadha > > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Dear Bharat and Tijana, Tijana is right. Vishnu avatar Narsimha exploded out of a pillar when Prahlad was challenged " is your god in everything? Is your god in this pillar?? " I think we all know how the rest of this particular incidnece went and concluded! Om Namo Bhagvate Narsimha Devaya! peace charu sohamsa , " nix_nixen " <nix_nixen wrote: > > Om Gurave Namah > Pranam Bharatji, > I see your statement correct if we say that all resides with Lord as > If everything that is resides in the Lord it can not be separated > from Him which means that everything that is is the same with the > Lord so He resides in everything also being everything. > " The luminosity of Atman consists in the manifestation of all > objects. " -tat tvam asi > (AdiShankara) > Warm regards, > Tijana > > > sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " > <astrologyhindu@> wrote: > > > > Namaste Tijana > > Spirit does not reside in everything. The correct statement is - > Everything > > that is resides in the Lord (spirit, if you may call it). > > > > The knower of the above isn't going to ask about Vedic clothes. > However, a > > person who more and more identifies with this knowledge that all > that is is > > the Lord, because deeply sensitive. For him/her the entireity is an > > expression of his real Self. To cause pain to anything is like > causing pain > > to oneself. It is for this reason, the least painful becomes > Sattwic and > > more spiritual. > > > > This does not mean that people who wear cotton are spiritual. Just > that > > people who tend to understand the truth of the first statement, > tend to > > cause least harm. > > > > For the same reason fruits are most Sattwic, since they cause the > least > > harm. So on and so forth. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, nix_nixen <nix_nixen@> wrote: > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > > Dear memebers of the thread, > > > Vastram dehine Shukra. The enitire phenomenon comes under the > > > influence of the Shukra so folowing this line in scriptures > something > > > universal must be found. > > > I think that Rafal raised good question as Vedic must be > universal, > > > if not than it`s something else. > > > I don`t see how spirituality is different from any segment of > life as > > > spirit resides in everything or? > > > One of the meanings of the word sarit in sanskrit is thread, so > > > connection exist. The rest is for the experts to think about. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tijana > > > > > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa% > 40>, " ~Tarun~ " < > > > tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Anand ji, > > > > > > > > It was cotton or linen , but the thing is it was hand made > cloth :-) > > > > > > > > as Bharat ji said > > > > " " If the question pertains to what qualifies as a spiritual > cloth - > > > then, it would mean the one that has come after least harm to > anyone. > > > Let's say - cotton, jute, leafs, etc. Definitely not silk which > comes > > > from harming a whole load of insects. As a basic rule - just > decide > > > which disturbs the nature least and causes least harm to any > living > > > organism. " " > > > > > > > > The Term Saree is not the correct word, Vastra was to be used in > > > those times ,and no where we can find the term saree. We now call > > > them saree actually. > > > > > > > > Yes thats wht i asked in my previous mail to Rafal that , do he > > > want to find wht Vedas say to wear or wht to wear and how to wear > in > > > Temples or Havan Yagya etc. > > > > > > > > If we go by term then it will be Angvastra, or more detailed, > but > > > Sari is not the exact term. > > > > Saree is an updated thing which is worn in current age. > > > > as Shailesh ji too said in his mail > > > > > > > > " The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer > > > to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. > > > > " " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > Anand Ravi > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 5:28 PM > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivaya > > > > > > > > Dear Tarun, Namaste > > > > > > > > Cotton or Linen - I trust linen. Linen was used in Egypt for > > > mummification too. Please correct me if > > > > Iam wrong. > > > > > > > > In South India (Esp. Hindu and Nambootri) dhoti and saree for > > > some special occation is tied in a specific > > > > way. Is this very close to the ones done during the Vedic times. > > > I remember they tied my dothi > > > > to in this way during Upanayanam. > > > > > > > > Rgds > > > > Anand > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, ~Tarun~ <tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching > > > that time. > > > > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > > > > they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > > > > > > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope > > > this is helps. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > Dear Tarun, > > > > > > > > Yes, what is the difference between current and those > > > described in Vedas - clear question. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > cheer means cloth, not sari. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > > > - > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > Dear Shailesh, > > > > > > > > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca- > > > Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem is > over. > > > Agree? > > > > > > > > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. > > > So clothes also. > > > > > > > > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - > > > to answer. > > > > > > > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > > > > > > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent > > > divine knowledge - not human. > > > > > > > > Your question relates to human practices. > > > > > > > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no > > > written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, > there is > > > no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > > > > > > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - > > > generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. I do not > recall > > > any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or > knowledge > > > is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' > > > episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. > > > > > > > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas > > > represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or > the 'cultural' > > > knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS > > > interchangeably. > > > > > > > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > > > > > > > > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest > > > form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > > > > > > > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this > > > count. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes †" > > > Dhoti or saree †" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman > > > clothes??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore > > > unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti †" the > > > only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These changed with the time, with the development > > > of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa@ > > > . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > > > > sohamsa@ .com > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > Dear Tijana, > > > > > > > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious > > > from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > > > > > > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND > > > DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > > > > > > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC > > > CLOTHING. > > > > > > > > Thank You for help. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional > > > clothing than we can > > > > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the > > > Mahabharata- the famous > > > > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue > > > that proves long > > > > history of sari. > > > > One of the important thing about sari and other > > > traditional clothes > > > > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. > > > Modifications were > > > > done with coming of the Muslims and English. > > > Probably only Indian > > > > scholars of history of clothing and costume could > > > say what is > > > > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > > > > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together > > > a specific message > > > > and honestly i think that choice of saris and > > > dhotis of people today > > > > (especially from the west) is accidental or half- > > > understood. > > > > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the > > > clothes and > > > > ornaments are important. > > > > Hope this helps in some way. > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Tijana > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz > > > <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes > > > are connected to > > > > culture > > > > > obviously. Differentation based on role in > > > society doesnt negate > > > > fact > > > > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. > > > I wanted to know how > > > > much > > > > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis > > > and saris (esp > > > > those > > > > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very > > > easy for those who > > > > were > > > > > born in India . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a > > > pramana to Satyam, > > > > isn't > > > > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya > > > prescribed ochre > > > > robes > > > > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men > > > and Sanyasis have > > > > all > > > > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore > > > different clothes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ > > > wp.pl > > > > > > < starsuponme > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one > > > debate with few > > > > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and > > > sari are not > > > > vedic > > > > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical > > > slokas which > > > > describe > > > > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing > > > Dhoti/Sari? I > > > > tried to > > > > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit > > > word for Sari nor > > > > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to > > > name, but to > > > > form of > > > > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com < rafal@ ...> > > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com < > > > http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Shailesh C Chadha > > > > > > > > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > > > > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > > > > Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > > > > (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > > > > ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are > > > and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and > those > > > who matter don't mind. > > > > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. > > > Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 7, 2007 Om Gurave Namah Dear Bharat, Thank you for your kind words. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " <astrologyhindu wrote: > > Namaste Tijana > I agree it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to fix the time of > " Knowledge " (Vedas). I guess for history purposes and purpose of the > discussion on Vedic Clothes, we can think of it as the time period when Sri > Veda Vyasa compiled the Vedas. The time before him was also Vedic and that > time continues for many now too. This is difficult to grasp for most. So for > " practical " purposes time when Upanishads were taught to students desiring > moksha, and in a general sense the purpose of the Vedas was not forgotten as > it is now, we can call it the Vedic time period. > > Ofcourse Vedas are universal as Sat can never be Asat and Vedas are the > pramana. > > > It is good to know that you are studying this subject. With your thinking > and calibre, I think you should study it seriously, if not doing so already, > under the guidance of an able Gurudev. > > Thanks and Regards > Bharat > > > > On 7/7/07, nix_nixen <nix_nixen wrote: > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > Dear Bharatji, > > what do you mean by-in the time of the Vedas? The time when they were > > writed down? > > Please correct me on this if you think it wrong-Vedas as an > > expression of the universal knowledge don`t have beginning. What is > > subdued to time is our understanding of that knowledge and it is > > changing from age to age. The essence of the Veda remains the same. > > It is we who are reading it and understanding it different. > > This was my point when i said that Vedic must be universal as if not > > then it falls into the maya of historic experience. > > Warm regards, > > Tijana > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40>, Rafal Gendarz > > <starsuponme@> wrote: > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > > > #1 Yes, right > > > > > > #2 Yes, existence of main point dont exclude other points > > (detailed). I > > > dont feel this type of discussion as conclusive, so I know what You > > > mean. If one identify oneself with devotee of God then His service > > can > > > be on higher level - that was the sense of feeling. > > > > > > #3 " Whether some were prescribed for a particular reason or not " - > > That > > > is the question! > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > > > > > > > #1 If a clothing is specified in the Vedas, then, it would > > qualify as > > > > Vedic. It wouldn't render the simple clothing based on " least > > harm > > > > principle " as unvedic. > > > > > > > > #2 I wouldn't categorize. The main point is whether or not a > > person is > > > > understanding the Vedas, rather than wearing a particular dress. > > I > > > > have been to many ashrams and they all have a distinct Indian > > dress. I > > > > personally do not to the idea of using a dress to feel > > > > spiritual. Ofcourse, if one feels spiritual rather than " be > > spiritual " > > > > then, it is their choice. > > > > > > > > #3 I meant a historian shall be able to tell you what kind of > > clothes > > > > were prevalent at the time of the Vedas. The next step would be > > to ask > > > > different people on why such clothes were prevalent. Whether some > > were > > > > prescribed for a particular reason or not. > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/7/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > > <starsuponme@>> wrote: > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > Dear Bharatji, > > > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in > > Vedas/Puranas > > > > it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at > > > > least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as > > > > stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule > > of > > > > the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be > > some > > > > philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together > > > > > > > > #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt > > mean > > > > that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean > > that > > > > critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase > > Vedic > > > > Clothing. > > > > > > > > There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it > > > > mean spiritual people must wear it also? > > > > > > > > I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris > > their > > > > conciousness is better as they identify themselves with > > devotees > > > > of God. > > > > > > > > #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want > > to > > > > know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all > > > > times, or for all times. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@> > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > >> Namaste Sri Rafal > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified " Vedic > > > >> Dress " . Let me attempt to answer your questions: > > > >> > > > >> #1 What it means that something is Vedic? > > > >> When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called > > Vedic. For > > > >> example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or > > > >> Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic > > > >> Management. Management may not be directly given in the > > Vedas. > > > >> > > > >> If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely > > > >> Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge > > > >> contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for > > > >> Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be " Vedic " . Since > > > >> Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go > > > >> against it, it can be called Vedic. > > > >> > > > >> #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? > > > >> Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, > > many > > > >> strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by > > > >> calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a > > > >> categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn > > by > > > >> those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least > > harm > > > >> to anyone. > > > >> > > > >> #3 What means Vedic clothing? > > > >> It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There > > could > > > >> be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the > > time of > > > >> the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks and Regards > > > >> Bharat > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 7/6/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > >> <starsuponme@>> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> *hraum namah adityaya* > > > >> > > > >> Dear Bharatji & others, > > > >> > > > >> Thank You. > > > >> > > > >> Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon > > Swamis. > > > >> One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic > > > >> Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and > > Sari > > > >> are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this > > kind > > > >> of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, > > because > > > >> it helps in spiritual culture/conciousnes s. > > > >> > > > >> So: > > > >> > > > >> #1 What it means that something is Vedic? > > > >> > > > >> #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? > > > >> > > > >> #3 What means Vedic clothing? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Regards, > > > >> Rafal Gendarz > > > >> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > >> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > > > >>> > > > >>> Dear Rafal, > > > >>> > > > >>> The clear answer is that there was no such kind of > > stiching > > > >>> that time. > > > >>> Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > > > >>> they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > > >>> > > > >>> They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I > > hope > > > >>> this is helps. > > > >>> > > > >>> Regards, > > > >>> > > > >>> tarun > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> - > > > >>> ** Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@> > > > >>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > > > >>> <sohamsa <sohamsa%40>> > > > >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > > > >>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > >>> > > > >>> *hraum namah adityaya* > > > >>> > > > >>> Dear Tarun, > > > >>> > > > >>> Yes, what is the difference between current and > > those > > > >>> described in Vedas - clear question. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Regards, > > > >>> Rafal Gendarz > > > >>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > >>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@> > > > >>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > <http://www.rohinaa.com> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > > > >>> > > > >>>> Dear Rafal, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> cheer means cloth, not sari. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Regards, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Tarun > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - > > > >>>> ** Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@> > > > >>>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > > > >>>> <sohamsa <sohamsa% 40>> > > > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > > > >>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > >>>> > > > >>>> *hraum namah adityaya* > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Dear Shailesh, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or > > Purana > > > >>>> (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate > > description > > > >>>> then our problem is over. Agree? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers > > to > > > >>>> humans. So clothes also. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is > > question. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Regards, > > > >>>> Rafal Gendarz > > > >>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > >>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@> > > > >>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > >>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> *|| Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > * > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> ** > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Dear Rafal, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Your question is very difficult - almost > > > >>>>> impossible - to answer. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> To start with, we do not know what is > > the 'VEDIC > > > >>>>> TIME'. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they > > > >>>>> represent divine knowledge - not human. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Your question relates to human practices. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there > > > >>>>> were no written books or pictorial > > representations > > > >>>>> at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of > > the > > > >>>>> clothing used at that time. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - > > > >>>>> generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > > >>>>> > > like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , > > > >>>>> etc. I do not recall any mention of the type > > of > > > >>>>> clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is > > all > > > >>>>> that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, > > > >>>>> 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so > > > >>>>> welll-known. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent > > > >>>>> 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the > > > >>>>> 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the > > > >>>>> terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> So, the question may remain unresolved; > > > >>>>> unfortunately. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Regards, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> /Shailesh /// > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On 7/6/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > >>>>> <starsuponme@>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> *hraum namah adityaya* > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, > > Tarunji, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Tarun: So which state of India represents > > > >>>>> closest form? Is some form closest to > > Vedic? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic > > Clothing? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Regards, > > > >>>>> Rafal Gendarz > > > >>>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > >>>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > >>>>> <rafal@> > > > >>>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > >>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> *|| Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo > > Naraayanaaya| | * > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> * * > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I am afraid your ISKON friends are > > correct on > > > >>>>>> this count. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Have you compared the so called Vedic > > clothes > > > >>>>>> �€ " Dhoti or saree �€ " with the ancient > > Egyptian, > > > >>>>>> Greece or even Roman clothes??? > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> They all seem so similar - all of them > > wore > > > >>>>>> unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the > > > >>>>>> traditional dhoti �€ " the only > > difference was > > > >>>>>> the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> These changed with the time, with the > > > >>>>>> development of tailoring skills, and > > with the > > > >>>>>> local 'fashion'. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Regards, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> /Shailesh /// > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> **sohamsa@ .com > > > >>>>>> [sohamsa] *On > > Behalf > > > >>>>>> Of *Rafal Gendarz > > > >>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > > > >>>>>> *To:* sohamsa@ .com > > > >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Vedic > > Clothes > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> *hraum namah adityaya * > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Dear Tijana, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so > > > >>>>>> obvious from the sastras that I cant > > > >>>>>> understand their arguments fully. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> It seems that they say that CURRENT > > SARIS AND > > > >>>>>> DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC > > CLOTHING. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Therefore wanted to grasp information > > about > > > >>>>>> VEDIC CLOTHING. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Thank You for help. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Regards, > > > >>>>>> Rafal Gendarz > > > >>>>>> Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > >>>>>> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > >>>>>> <rafal@> > > > >>>>>> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > >>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Om Gurave Namah > > > >>>>>>> Dear Rafal, > > > >>>>>>> i`m sure there`s much more on > > traditional > > > >>>>>>> clothing than we can > > > >>>>>>> imagine. There`s a mention of sari in > > the > > > >>>>>>> Mahabharata- the famous > > > >>>>>>> story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s > > > >>>>>>> virtue that proves long > > > >>>>>>> history of sari. > > > >>>>>>> One of the important thing about sari > > and > > > >>>>>>> other traditional clothes > > > >>>>>>> is believing that the unstitched fabric > > is > > > >>>>>>> pure. Modifications were > > > >>>>>>> done with coming of the Muslims and > > English. > > > >>>>>>> Probably only Indian > > > >>>>>>> scholars of history of clothing and > > costume > > > >>>>>>> could say what is > > > >>>>>>> traditional in clothes we are seeing > > today. > > > >>>>>>> Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring > > > >>>>>>> together a specific message > > > >>>>>>> and honestly i think that choice of > > saris > > > >>>>>>> and dhotis of people today > > > >>>>>>> (especially from the west) is > > accidental or > > > >>>>>>> half-understood. > > > >>>>>>> As for Devatas my guess is that the > > color of > > > >>>>>>> the clothes and > > > >>>>>>> ornaments are important. > > > >>>>>>> Hope this helps in some way. > > > >>>>>>> Warm regards, > > > >>>>>>> Tijana > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> sohamsa@ .com > > > >>>>>>> <sohamsa% <sohamsa%25>40>, > > Rafal > > > >>>>>>> Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > Dear Bharat, > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. > > > >>>>>>> Clothes are connected to > > > >>>>>>> culture > > > >>>>>>> > obviously. Differentation based on > > role in > > > >>>>>>> society doesnt negate > > > >>>>>>> fact > > > >>>>>>> > that we can say some clothing is > > Vedic or > > > >>>>>>> not. I wanted to know how > > > >>>>>>> much > > > >>>>>>> > Devatas clothes are connected to > > current > > > >>>>>>> dhotis and saris (esp > > > >>>>>>> those > > > >>>>>>> > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would > > be > > > >>>>>>> very easy for those who > > > >>>>>>> were > > > >>>>>>> > born in India . > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > Regards, > > > >>>>>>> > Rafal Gendarz > > > >>>>>>> > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > >>>>>>> > email: rafal@ > > > >>>>>>> > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa > > > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa/> . com > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. > > Veda as > > > >>>>>>> a pramana to Satyam, > > > >>>>>>> isn't > > > >>>>>>> > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi > > > >>>>>>> Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > > > >>>>>>> robes > > > >>>>>>> > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, > > learned > > > >>>>>>> men and Sanyasis have > > > >>>>>>> all > > > >>>>>>> > > been the knowers of the Truth. They > > all > > > >>>>>>> wore different clothes. > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > Thanks and Regards > > > >>>>>>> > > Bharat > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* > > <starsuponme@ > > > >>>>>>> wp.pl > > > >>>>>>> > > <starsuponme > > > >>>>>>> <starsuponme>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > Could you help me with one issue? I > > have > > > >>>>>>> one debate with few > > > >>>>>>> > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that > > dhoti > > > >>>>>>> and sari are not > > > >>>>>>> vedic > > > >>>>>>> > > clothes. Could You give me some > > classical > > > >>>>>>> slokas which > > > >>>>>>> describe > > > >>>>>>> > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women > > > >>>>>>> wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > > > >>>>>>> tried to > > > >>>>>>> > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no > > > >>>>>>> Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > > >>>>>>> > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not > > attached > > > >>>>>>> to name, but to > > > >>>>>>> form of > > > >>>>>>> > > that clothing. > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > Regards, > > > >>>>>>> > > Rafal Gendarz > > > >>>>>>> > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > >>>>>>> > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > <rafal@ ...> > > > >>>>>>> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa > > > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa/>. com > > > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa. com > > > >>>>>>> <http://www.rohinaa.com/>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> -- > > > >>>>> Shailesh C Chadha > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > > > >>>>> Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > > > >>>>> Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > > > >>>>> (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > > > >>>>> ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who > > you > > > >>>>> are and say what you feel because those who > > mind > > > >>>>> don't matter and those who matter don't mind. > > > >>>>> - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a > > way. > > > >>>>> Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > > > >>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 8, 2007 Dear Charu, I guess reading shastra's and interpretation is a part of SJC parampara, and because Rafal was not able to get the answer in parampara's library he tried to ask that on forum. So i think that Vedic Clothing is to be a pure clothing to worship god. All the sciences or vedas are for human welfare not for telling them what to wear. if you say in Himalayas there was different clothing culture according to vedas. ?? or if one is feeling cold and he should not wear anything protective or thik as not specified in vedas ?? if one is in desert and dont get shivering winters than wht ?? So Vedas can never do partial contents abt such thing. They say to maintain pureity in clothing , in whatever you wear. you can see Boddha Dharm followers, wht they wear ? They just cover around unstiched clothes on their body. Yes food habits are specific as it says real Dharm Follower should not take non-vegeterian food and those who do take alcohal and do take non-vegeterian food are not Dharmic. Regards Tarun - charu2250 sohamsa Sunday, July 08, 2007 3:22 AM Re: Vedic Clothes Dear Sailesh,What is your reference, or source of information regarding ancientgreeks and egyptians wearing unstiched clothes?Forget about just documentry evidence, there is physical evidence interms of ancient clothes retrieved from burial sites. Not justroyality but even poor ancient egyptians wore stitched clothes.I hardly think a purely "visual" comparison of what supposed pictureslook like between these 3 cultures warrants such a conclusion, or theextrapolation that current sari dhoti clothing is non vedic.Whether it is or isn't non vedic clothing, i don't know.peacecharusohamsa , "Shailesh C Chadha" <scchadha wrote:>> || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya||> > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana,> > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count.> > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes - Dhoti or saree -with the> ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes???> > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely> resembling the traditional dhoti - the only difference was the type, and> direction, of the wrap.> > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans.> > > > These changed with the time, with the development of tailoringskills, and> with the local 'fashion'.> > > > Regards,> > > > Shailesh > > > > _____ > > sohamsa [sohamsa ] OnBehalf Of> Rafal Gendarz> Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM> sohamsa > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes> > > > hraum namah adityaya> > Dear Tijana,> > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I> cant understand their arguments fully.> > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing todo with> VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING.> > Thank You for help.> > > Regards,> Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) <rafal com> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. <http://www.rohinaa.com> com> > nix_nixen napisa³(a): > > Om Gurave Namah> Dear Rafal,> i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata-the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long > history of sari.> One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today.> Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today > (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood.> As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and > ornaments are important.> Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards,> Tijana > > sohamsa@ <sohamsa%40> .com,Rafal> Gendarz <starsuponme@> wrote:> >> > *hraum namah adityaya*> > > > Dear Bharat,> > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who > were > > born in India.> > > > > > Regards,> > Rafal Gendarz> > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> > email: rafal@> > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com> > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a):> > >> > > Namaste Sri Rafal> > >> > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > <starsuponme@>> wrote:> > >> > > *hraum namah adityaya*> > >> > > Dear Jyotishas,> > >> > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few> > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not > vedic> > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which > describe> > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > tried to> > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor> > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to > form of> > > that clothing.> > >> > >> > > Regards,> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@>> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.> <http://www.rohinaa.com> com>> > >> > >> > >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 9, 2007 || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, We have absolutely NO authoritative information about the clothings of the ancients; the excavated statues, etc also represent artistic understanding, or expression of the time when these statues, etc. were executed. One more small bit of information – the die-hard traditionalists insist on performing pujas without any clothes; hence the unstitched ‘wraps’ – dhoti, etc – are only a compromise on account of social norms. The basic idea seems to be purity and simplicity – more clothing, and more stitching denotes more materialism. If I come across any more relevant information, I will pass it on. Regards, Shailesh sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Saturday, July 07, 2007 5:34 PM sohamsa Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji, Thank You. #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in Vedas/Puranas it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule of the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be some philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt mean that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean that critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase Vedic Clothing. There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it mean spiritual people must wear it also? I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris their conciousness is better as they identify themselves with devotees of God. #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want to know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all times, or for all times. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa³(a): Namaste Sri Rafal Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified " Vedic Dress " . Let me attempt to answer your questions: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be " Vedic " . Since Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go against it, it can be called Vedic. #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm to anyone. #3 What means Vedic clothing? It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme (AT) wp (DOT) pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousness. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com ~Tarun~ napisa³(a): Dear Rafal, The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics. They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. Regards, tarun - Rafal Gendarz To: sohamsa@ .com Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Subject: Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisa³(a): Dear Rafal, cheer means cloth, not sari. Regards, Tarun - Rafal Gendarz To: sohamsa@ .com Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisa³(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. Your question relates to human practices. Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisa³(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal & Tijana, I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. So also for the head-gear, or turbans. These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. Regards, Shailesh sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisa³(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India .. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa .. com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 9, 2007 hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Thank You. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com Shailesh C Chadha napisa³(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, We have absolutely NO authoritative information about the clothings of the ancients; the excavated statues, etc also represent artistic understanding, or expression of the time when these statues, etc. were executed. One more small bit of information – the die-hard traditionalists insist on performing pujas without any clothes; hence the unstitched ‘wraps’ – dhoti, etc – are only a compromise on account of social norms. The basic idea seems to be purity and simplicity – more clothing, and more stitching denotes more materialism. If I come across any more relevant information, I will pass it on. Regards, Shailesh sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Saturday, July 07, 2007 5:34 PM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji, Thank You. #1 Yes, so when we find fragments about clothing in Vedas/Puranas it would be Vedic Clothing. For example for Deity Worship (at least in temple with good standarts) You must have dhoti, as stiched clothing is prohibited for Deity worship. So its rule of the Vedas or Tantras (Pancaratra Pradipika). So there must be some philosophy behind it which I thought we can find together #2 If someone would categorize based on clothing, it doesnt mean that there is no such thing like Vedic clothing, it just mean that critic is too hasty and shallow. Im sure we can use phrase Vedic Clothing. There is objection: If the Devas wears Dhoti and Sari, does it mean spiritual people must wear it also? I recognize that people in west, if wear this Dhotis, Saris their conciousness is better as they identify themselves with devotees of God. #3 I dont care about wearing in some time in history, I want to know what is the standart of Veda/Purana about clothing in all times, or for all times. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa³(a): Namaste Sri Rafal Truly speaking, there is no such thing as a specified "Vedic Dress". Let me attempt to answer your questions: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? When Vedic principles are followed, then, it is called Vedic. For example, if you follow the principles of Sri Bhagavad Gita or Upanishads and apply it to Management, it becomes Vedic Management. Management may not be directly given in the Vedas. If something is given in the Vedas, then, too it is surely Vedic. Vedic relates to a way of life born out the knowledge contained in the Vedas. That is why, it is not important for Astrology to be contained in the Vedas to be "Vedic". Since Astrology follows the know-how of the Vedas and does not go against it, it can be called Vedic. #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? Not necessary to specify something as Vedic Clothing, then, many strangely orthodox people will start humiliating people by calling them non-vedic on the basis of a dress. Such a categorization should not be done. Generally, clothing worn by those spiritual is simple, made from things that cause least harm to anyone. #3 What means Vedic clothing? It is a redundant question now in light of the above. There could be a question what type of clothing was prevalent at the time of the Vedas. For that you need to ask a historian. Thanks and Regards Bharat On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Bharatji & others, Thank You. Discussion was arised as debate between two Iskcon Swamis. One is proclaiming that there is no such concept as Vedic Clothing, while the other say that definitely Dhoti and Sari are Vedic because Hero'es of Sastras were wearing this kind of clothes, so Iskcon devotees should also wear it, because it helps in spiritual culture/conciousnes s. So: #1 What it means that something is Vedic? #2 Is there something like Vedic Clothing? #3 What means Vedic clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisa³(a): Dear Rafal, The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done they were to use cotton made fabrics. They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this is helps. Regards, tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tarun, Yes, what is the difference between current and those described in Vedas - clear question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com ~Tarun~ napisa³(a): Dear Rafal, cheer means cloth, not sari. Regards, Tarun - Rafal Gendarz sohamsa@ .com Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Shailesh, #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca-Veda) . If we could get accurate description then our problem is over. Agree? #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. So clothes also. #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh Chadha napisa³(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal, Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - to answer. To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divine knowledge - not human. Your question relates to human practices. Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there is no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra' , 'kativastra' , 'adhovastra' , etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. Regards, Shailesh On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: hraum namah adityaya Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Is some form closest to Vedic? Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com Shailesh C Chadha napisa³(a): || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | Dear Rafal & Tijana, I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes – Dhoti or saree – with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti – the only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. So also for the head-gear, or turbans. These changed with the time, with the development of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. Regards, Shailesh sohamsa@ ..com [sohamsa@ . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM sohamsa@ .com Re: Re: Vedic Clothes hraum namah adityaya Dear Tijana, Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING. Thank You for help. Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com nix_nixen napisa³(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Rafal, i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata- the famous story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long history of sari. One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is traditional in clothes we are seeing today. Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of people today (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood. As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and ornaments are important. Hope this helps in some way. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa@ ..com, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Bharat, > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to culture > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate fact > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted to know how much > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp those > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who were > born in India . > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa .. com > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, isn't > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre robes > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have all > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > <starsuponme > wrote: > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which describe > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to form of > > that clothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ....> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > -- Shailesh C Chadha #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. ____________ _________ _________ __ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 9, 2007 Dear Charu, I guess you yourself are confused that Orange / Bhagwa is not our sacred colour. Well , one more thing that then why Red is colour in china and Green in middle-east. Regards, Tarun - charu2250 sohamsa Sunday, July 08, 2007 3:30 AM Re: Vedic Clothes Dear Tarun,About your last sentence asking about the colour orange....Orange is not our vedic/sacred colour. Orange is the colour worn byrenouciates, by brahmcharis, by sanyaasis. That does not make themvedic or sacred. Rishis of old if they were married did not wear orange.The reason for orange is that this color supresses venus, supressesojas and therefore assists in giving up all that is associated withvenus/shukra. Sex,and rajas guna things and activites, al the thingsthat a celibate and/or sanyaasi has to give up.peacecharu sohamsa , "~Tarun~" <tarun.virgo wrote:>> Dear Scholars,> > The Rishis were to wear different clothes, than the Kshatriya, > The general people / farmer / traders, they were to wear differentclothes. > The fabric used was different.> > The region, like the Kashi vishwanath 's traditional clothes or saythe Priest / Pujari wear different clothes than the south india.> The Gujrati Clothes / Punjabi Clothes / Marathi Culture, RajasthaniCulture. West Bengal, Kashmir. > each state have different type of traditional clothing. > > The current Sari and Dhoti donot have direct relation with Vedic butthey have relation to the culture of the state.> Sari is wore in different styles in each state. > and the similar thing among all the rituals followed in india is theCOLOUR, and the colour can be termed as Vedic not the clothes.> Nepal is pure Hindu Country and there culture is also different.> > Do Someone knows why Orange is our sacred / Vedic colour ??????neither red, nor green nor white ...> > Regards,> > Tarun> > > > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM> Re: Re: Vedic Clothes> > > hraum namah adityaya> > Dear Tijana,> > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious from the sastrasthat I cant understand their arguments fully.> > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIS have nothingto do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING.> > Thank You for help.> > > Regards,> Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com> > nix_nixen napisal(a): > > Om Gurave Namah> Dear Rafal,> i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothing than we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata-the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue that proves long > history of sari.> One of the important thing about sari and other traditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probably only Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could say what is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today.> Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together a specific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotis of peopletoday > (especially from the west) is accidental or half-understood.> As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the clothes and > ornaments are important.> Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards,> Tijana > > sohamsa , Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@> wrote:> >> > *hraum namah adityaya*> > > > Dear Bharat,> > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes are connected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in society doesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. I wanted toknow how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis and saris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easy for those who > were > > born in India.> > > > > > Regards,> > Rafal Gendarz> > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> > email: rafal@> > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com> > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a):> > >> > > Namaste Sri Rafal> > >> > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a pramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya prescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men and Sanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore different clothes.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > <starsuponme@>> wrote:> > >> > > *hraum namah adityaya*> > >> > > Dear Jyotishas,> > >> > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few> > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not > vedic> > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokas which > describe> > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I > tried to> > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor> > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name, but to > form of> > > that clothing.> > >> > >> > > Regards,> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@>> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com <http://www.rohinaa.com>> > >> > >> > >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 9, 2007  Hello Charu, I donot have any reference but do u have reference to show the Clothes defined, and if you donot have anything to prove according to Vedas then my answer is more authentic. Regards, Tarun - charu2250 sohamsa Sunday, July 08, 2007 3:33 AM Re: Vedic Clothes Dear Tarun,what is your reference for this seemingly very clear cut definite answer?peacecharusohamsa , "~Tarun~" <tarun.virgo wrote:>> Dear Rafal,> > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching that time. > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done> they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope this ishelps.> > Regards,> > tarun> > > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM> Re: Re: Vedic Clothes> > > hraum namah adityaya> > Dear Tarun,> > Yes, what is the difference between current and those described inVedas - clear question.> > > Regards,> Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com> > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > >  > > Dear Rafal,> > cheer means cloth, not sari.> > Regards,> > Tarun> > - > Rafal Gendarz > sohamsa > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM> Re: Re: Vedic Clothes> > > hraum namah adityaya> > Dear Shailesh,> > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana(Panca-Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem isover. Agree?> > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. Soclothes also.> > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question.> > > Regards,> Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com> > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > Dear Rafal, > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - toanswer. > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent divineknowledge - not human. > > Your question relates to human practices. > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were nowritten books or pictorial representations at that time. So, there isno 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generallyrefer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', like 'angavastra', 'kativastra','adhovastra', etc. I do not recall any mention of the type of clothing- not that my stdies or knowledge is all that exhaustive. But asTijana mentioned, 'cheera-harana' episode from Mahabharata is sowelll-known. > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas represent 'spiritual'knowledge, not the 'social' or the 'cultural' knowledge. And, I wouldnot use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS interchangeably. > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > Regards, > > Shailesh > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji,> > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest form? Issome form closest to Vedic? > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing?> > Regards,> Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com> > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this count. > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes â€" Dhotior saree â€" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman clothes??? > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore unstichedcloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti â€" the onlydifference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > These changed with the time, with the development oftailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > Regards, > > > > Shailesh > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz> Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM> sohamsa@ .com> Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > Dear Tijana,> > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious fromthe sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully.> > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND DHOTIShave nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC CLOTHING.> > Thank You for help.> > > Regards,> Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com> Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > Om Gurave Namah> Dear Rafal,> i`m sure there`s much more on traditional clothingthan we can > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the Mahabharata-the famous > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue thatproves long > history of sari.> One of the important thing about sari and othertraditional clothes > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure.Modifications were > done with coming of the Muslims and English. Probablyonly Indian > scholars of history of clothing and costume could saywhat is > traditional in clothes we are seeing today.> Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together aspecific message > and honestly i think that choice of saris and dhotisof people today > (especially from the west) is accidental orhalf-understood.> As for Devatas my guess is that the color of theclothes and > ornaments are important.> Hope this helps in some way. > Warm regards,> Tijana > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz<starsuponme@ ...> wrote:> >> > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > Dear Bharat,> > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes areconnected to > culture > > obviously. Differentation based on role in societydoesnt negate > fact > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. Iwanted to know how > much > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis andsaris (esp > those > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very easyfor those who > were > > born in India .> > > > > > Regards, > > Rafal Gendarz> > Sri Jagannath Center Guru> > email: rafal@> > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com> > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a):> > >> > > Namaste Sri Rafal> > >> > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as apramana to Satyam, > isn't > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharyaprescribed ochre > robes > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men andSanyasis have > all > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all woredifferent clothes.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ wp.pl > > > <starsuponme > wrote:> > >> > > *hraum namah adityaya*> > >> > > Dear Jyotishas,> > >> > > Could you help me with one issue? I have onedebate with few> > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sariare not > vedic> > > clothes. Could You give me some classical slokaswhich > describe> > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearingDhoti/Sari? I > tried to> > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit wordfor Sari nor > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to name,but to > form of> > > that clothing.> > >> > >> > > Regards,> > > Rafal Gendarz> > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com <rafal@ ...>> > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com<http://www.rohinaa. com>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > Shailesh C Chadha> > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA> Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ®> (Cell) +91 984 999 4837> ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are andsay what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those whomatter don't mind. > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. Those whodon't will find an EXCUSE.> ____________ _________ _________ __> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 10, 2007 Om Gurave Namah Dear Charu, Tijana was just inspired by what Bharatji said. If she was right she would not ponder over what is obvious. Talking about God is as a blind man`s talk about light, but nevertheless it remains the only subject that is worth to be talked. May Great Narasimha bless you. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , " charu2250 " <charu2250 wrote: > > Dear Bharat and Tijana, > > Tijana is right. > Vishnu avatar Narsimha exploded out of a pillar when Prahlad was > challenged " is your god in everything? Is your god in this pillar?? " I > think we all know how the rest of this particular incidnece went and > concluded! > > Om Namo Bhagvate Narsimha Devaya! > > peace > charu > > > > > > sohamsa , " nix_nixen " <nix_nixen@> wrote: > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > Pranam Bharatji, > > I see your statement correct if we say that all resides with Lord as > > If everything that is resides in the Lord it can not be separated > > from Him which means that everything that is is the same with the > > Lord so He resides in everything also being everything. > > " The luminosity of Atman consists in the manifestation of all > > objects. " -tat tvam asi > > (AdiShankara) > > Warm regards, > > Tijana > > > > > > sohamsa , " Bharat - Hindu Astrology " > > <astrologyhindu@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Tijana > > > Spirit does not reside in everything. The correct statement is - > > Everything > > > that is resides in the Lord (spirit, if you may call it). > > > > > > The knower of the above isn't going to ask about Vedic clothes. > > However, a > > > person who more and more identifies with this knowledge that all > > that is is > > > the Lord, because deeply sensitive. For him/her the entireity is an > > > expression of his real Self. To cause pain to anything is like > > causing pain > > > to oneself. It is for this reason, the least painful becomes > > Sattwic and > > > more spiritual. > > > > > > This does not mean that people who wear cotton are spiritual. Just > > that > > > people who tend to understand the truth of the first statement, > > tend to > > > cause least harm. > > > > > > For the same reason fruits are most Sattwic, since they cause the > > least > > > harm. So on and so forth. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, nix_nixen <nix_nixen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > > > Dear memebers of the thread, > > > > Vastram dehine Shukra. The enitire phenomenon comes under the > > > > influence of the Shukra so folowing this line in scriptures > > something > > > > universal must be found. > > > > I think that Rafal raised good question as Vedic must be > > universal, > > > > if not than it`s something else. > > > > I don`t see how spirituality is different from any segment of > > life as > > > > spirit resides in everything or? > > > > One of the meanings of the word sarit in sanskrit is thread, so > > > > connection exist. The rest is for the experts to think about. > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Tijana > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa% > > 40>, " ~Tarun~ " < > > > > tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anand ji, > > > > > > > > > > It was cotton or linen , but the thing is it was hand made > > cloth :-) > > > > > > > > > > as Bharat ji said > > > > > " " If the question pertains to what qualifies as a spiritual > > cloth - > > > > then, it would mean the one that has come after least harm to > > anyone. > > > > Let's say - cotton, jute, leafs, etc. Definitely not silk which > > comes > > > > from harming a whole load of insects. As a basic rule - just > > decide > > > > which disturbs the nature least and causes least harm to any > > living > > > > organism. " " > > > > > > > > > > The Term Saree is not the correct word, Vastra was to be used in > > > > those times ,and no where we can find the term saree. We now call > > > > them saree actually. > > > > > > > > > > Yes thats wht i asked in my previous mail to Rafal that , do he > > > > want to find wht Vedas say to wear or wht to wear and how to wear > > in > > > > Temples or Havan Yagya etc. > > > > > > > > > > If we go by term then it will be Angvastra, or more detailed, > > but > > > > Sari is not the exact term. > > > > > Saree is an updated thing which is worn in current age. > > > > > as Shailesh ji too said in his mail > > > > > > > > > > " The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer > > > > to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. > > > > > " " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Anand Ravi > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 5:28 PM > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tarun, Namaste > > > > > > > > > > Cotton or Linen - I trust linen. Linen was used in Egypt for > > > > mummification too. Please correct me if > > > > > Iam wrong. > > > > > > > > > > In South India (Esp. Hindu and Nambootri) dhoti and saree for > > > > some special occation is tied in a specific > > > > > way. Is this very close to the ones done during the Vedic times. > > > > I remember they tied my dothi > > > > > to in this way during Upanayanam. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds > > > > > Anand > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, ~Tarun~ <tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > > > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching > > > > that time. > > > > > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > > > > > they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > > > > > > > > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope > > > > this is helps. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tarun, > > > > > > > > > > Yes, what is the difference between current and those > > > > described in Vedas - clear question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > > > cheer means cloth, not sari. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shailesh, > > > > > > > > > > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca- > > > > Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem is > > over. > > > > Agree? > > > > > > > > > > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. > > > > So clothes also. > > > > > > > > > > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - > > > > to answer. > > > > > > > > > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > > > > > > > > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent > > > > divine knowledge - not human. > > > > > > > > > > Your question relates to human practices. > > > > > > > > > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no > > > > written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, > > there is > > > > no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > > > > > > > > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - > > > > generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. I do not > > recall > > > > any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or > > knowledge > > > > is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera- harana' > > > > episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. > > > > > > > > > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas > > > > represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or > > the 'cultural' > > > > knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS > > > > interchangeably. > > > > > > > > > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > > > > > > > > > > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest > > > > form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this > > > > count. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes †" > > > > Dhoti or saree †" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman > > > > clothes??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore > > > > unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti †" the > > > > only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These changed with the time, with the development > > > > of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa@ > > > > . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > > > > > sohamsa@ .com > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tijana, > > > > > > > > > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious > > > > from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > > > > > > > > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND > > > > DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC > > > > CLOTHING. > > > > > > > > > > Thank You for help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > > > > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional > > > > clothing than we can > > > > > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the > > > > Mahabharata- the famous > > > > > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue > > > > that proves long > > > > > history of sari. > > > > > One of the important thing about sari and other > > > > traditional clothes > > > > > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. > > > > Modifications were > > > > > done with coming of the Muslims and English. > > > > Probably only Indian > > > > > scholars of history of clothing and costume could > > > > say what is > > > > > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > > > > > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together > > > > a specific message > > > > > and honestly i think that choice of saris and > > > > dhotis of people today > > > > > (especially from the west) is accidental or half- > > > > understood. > > > > > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the > > > > clothes and > > > > > ornaments are important. > > > > > Hope this helps in some way. > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > Tijana > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz > > > > <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes > > > > are connected to > > > > > culture > > > > > > obviously. Differentation based on role in > > > > society doesnt negate > > > > > fact > > > > > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. > > > > I wanted to know how > > > > > much > > > > > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis > > > > and saris (esp > > > > > those > > > > > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very > > > > easy for those who > > > > > were > > > > > > born in India . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a > > > > pramana to Satyam, > > > > > isn't > > > > > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya > > > > prescribed ochre > > > > > robes > > > > > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men > > > > and Sanyasis have > > > > > all > > > > > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore > > > > different clothes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ > > > > wp.pl > > > > > > > < starsuponme > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one > > > > debate with few > > > > > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and > > > > sari are not > > > > > vedic > > > > > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical > > > > slokas which > > > > > describe > > > > > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing > > > > Dhoti/Sari? I > > > > > tried to > > > > > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit > > > > word for Sari nor > > > > > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to > > > > name, but to > > > > > form of > > > > > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com < rafal@ ...> > > > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com < > > > > http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Shailesh C Chadha > > > > > > > > > > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > > > > > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > > > > > Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > > > > > (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are > > > > and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and > > those > > > > who matter don't mind. > > > > > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. > > > > Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 10, 2007 hraum namah adityaya Dear Jyotishas, Why unstiched cloth is more satvic? Why on altar we shouldnt have stiched cloth? Regards, Rafal Gendarz Sri Jagannath Center Guru email: rafal Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com nix_nixen napisał(a): Om Gurave Namah Dear Charu, Tijana was just inspired by what Bharatji said. If she was right she would not ponder over what is obvious. Talking about God is as a blind man`s talk about light, but nevertheless it remains the only subject that is worth to be talked. May Great Narasimha bless you. Warm regards, Tijana sohamsa , "charu2250" <charu2250 wrote: > > Dear Bharat and Tijana, > > Tijana is right. > Vishnu avatar Narsimha exploded out of a pillar when Prahlad was > challenged "is your god in everything? Is your god in this pillar??" I > think we all know how the rest of this particular incidnece went and > concluded! > > Om Namo Bhagvate Narsimha Devaya! > > peace > charu > > > > > > sohamsa , "nix_nixen" <nix_nixen@> wrote: > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > Pranam Bharatji, > > I see your statement correct if we say that all resides with Lord as > > If everything that is resides in the Lord it can not be separated > > from Him which means that everything that is is the same with the > > Lord so He resides in everything also being everything. > > "The luminosity of Atman consists in the manifestation of all > > objects."-tat tvam asi > > (AdiShankara) > > Warm regards, > > Tijana > > > > > > sohamsa , "Bharat - Hindu Astrology" > > <astrologyhindu@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Tijana > > > Spirit does not reside in everything. The correct statement is - > > Everything > > > that is resides in the Lord (spirit, if you may call it). > > > > > > The knower of the above isn't going to ask about Vedic clothes. > > However, a > > > person who more and more identifies with this knowledge that all > > that is is > > > the Lord, because deeply sensitive. For him/her the entireity is an > > > expression of his real Self. To cause pain to anything is like > > causing pain > > > to oneself. It is for this reason, the least painful becomes > > Sattwic and > > > more spiritual. > > > > > > This does not mean that people who wear cotton are spiritual. Just > > that > > > people who tend to understand the truth of the first statement, > > tend to > > > cause least harm. > > > > > > For the same reason fruits are most Sattwic, since they cause the > > least > > > harm. So on and so forth. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, nix_nixen <nix_nixen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > > > Dear memebers of the thread, > > > > Vastram dehine Shukra. The enitire phenomenon comes under the > > > > influence of the Shukra so folowing this line in scriptures > > something > > > > universal must be found. > > > > I think that Rafal raised good question as Vedic must be > > universal, > > > > if not than it`s something else. > > > > I don`t see how spirituality is different from any segment of > > life as > > > > spirit resides in everything or? > > > > One of the meanings of the word sarit in sanskrit is thread, so > > > > connection exist. The rest is for the experts to think about. > > > > Warm regards, > > > > Tijana > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa% > > 40>, "~Tarun~" < > > > > tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Anand ji, > > > > > > > > > > It was cotton or linen , but the thing is it was hand made > > cloth :-) > > > > > > > > > > as Bharat ji said > > > > > ""If the question pertains to what qualifies as a spiritual > > cloth - > > > > then, it would mean the one that has come after least harm to > > anyone. > > > > Let's say - cotton, jute, leafs, etc. Definitely not silk which > > comes > > > > from harming a whole load of insects. As a basic rule - just > > decide > > > > which disturbs the nature least and causes least harm to any > > living > > > > organism. "" > > > > > > > > > > The Term Saree is not the correct word, Vastra was to be used in > > > > those times ,and no where we can find the term saree. We now call > > > > them saree actually. > > > > > > > > > > Yes thats wht i asked in my previous mail to Rafal that , do he > > > > want to find wht Vedas say to wear or wht to wear and how to wear > > in > > > > Temples or Havan Yagya etc. > > > > > > > > > > If we go by term then it will be Angvastra, or more detailed, > > but > > > > Sari is not the exact term. > > > > > Saree is an updated thing which is worn in current age. > > > > > as Shailesh ji too said in his mail > > > > > > > > > > "The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - generally refer > > > > to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. > > > > > "" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Anand Ravi > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 5:28 PM > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tarun, Namaste > > > > > > > > > > Cotton or Linen - I trust linen. Linen was used in Egypt for > > > > mummification too. Please correct me if > > > > > Iam wrong. > > > > > > > > > > In South India (Esp. Hindu and Nambootri) dhoti and saree for > > > > some special occation is tied in a specific > > > > > way. Is this very close to the ones done during the Vedic times. > > > > I remember they tied my dothi > > > > > to in this way during Upanayanam. > > > > > > > > > > Rgds > > > > > Anand > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, ~Tarun~ <tarun.virgo@> wrote: > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > > > The clear answer is that there was no such kind of stiching > > > > that time. > > > > > Neither the use of silk or other fabric was done > > > > > they were to use cotton made fabrics. > > > > > > > > > > They were to wrap around the Cloth around there body. I hope > > > > this is helps. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 3:07 PM > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tarun, > > > > > > > > > > Yes, what is the difference between current and those > > > > described in Vedas - clear question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~Tarun~ napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > > > cheer means cloth, not sari. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:45 PM > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shailesh, > > > > > > > > > > #1 Vedic means what is described by Veda or Purana (Panca- > > > > Veda). If we could get accurate description then our problem is > > over. > > > > Agree? > > > > > > > > > > #2 Divine is author, but subject surely refers to humans. > > > > So clothes also. > > > > > > > > > > #3 How Cheera differs from Sari - that is question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > > > > > > Your question is very difficult - almost impossible - > > > > to answer. > > > > > > > > > > To start with, we do not know what is the 'VEDIC TIME'. > > > > > > > > > > To me, Vedas are eternal - SHASHWAT; they represent > > > > divine knowledge - not human. > > > > > > > > > > Your question relates to human practices. > > > > > > > > > > Also, Vedas are part of oral knowledge - there were no > > > > written books or pictorial representations at that time. So, > > there is > > > > no 'evidence' of the clothing used at that time. > > > > > > > > > > The ancient literature - Puranas and Itihaas - > > > > generally refer to 'VASTRA', meaning 'cloths', > > > > like 'angavastra', 'kativastra', 'adhovastra', etc. I do not > > recall > > > > any mention of the type of clothing - not that my stdies or > > knowledge > > > > is all that exhaustive. But as Tijana mentioned, 'cheera- harana' > > > > episode from Mahabharata is so welll-known. > > > > > > > > > > Also, please appreciate that Vedas > > > > represent 'spiritual' knowledge, not the 'social' or > > the 'cultural' > > > > knowledge. And, I would not use the terms VEDAS and PURANAS > > > > interchangeably. > > > > > > > > > > So, the question may remain unresolved; unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/6/07, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme@ wp.pl> wrote: > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shaileshji, Tijanaji, Bharatji, Tarunji, > > > > > > > > > > Tarun: So which state of India represents closest > > > > form? Is some form closest to Vedic? > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh: yes, but what was the Vedic Clothing? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh C Chadha napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah | Om Namo Naraayanaaya| | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Rafal & Tijana, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am afraid your ISKON friends are correct on this > > > > count. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you compared the so called Vedic clothes â€" > > > > Dhoti or saree â€" with the ancient Egyptian, Greece or even Roman > > > > clothes??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They all seem so similar - all of them wore > > > > unstiched cloths, loosely resembling the traditional dhoti â€" the > > > > only difference was the type, and direction, of the wrap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So also for the head-gear, or turbans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These changed with the time, with the development > > > > of tailoring skills, and with the local 'fashion'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shailesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com [sohamsa@ > > > > . com] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Friday, July 06, 2007 2:35 AM > > > > > sohamsa@ .com > > > > > Re: Re: Vedic Clothes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hraum namah adityaya > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tijana, > > > > > > > > > > Exactly! I gave the same example. Its so obvious > > > > from the sastras that I cant understand their arguments fully. > > > > > > > > > > It seems that they say that CURRENT SARIS AND > > > > DHOTIS have nothing to do with VEDIC CLOTHING. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore wanted to grasp information about VEDIC > > > > CLOTHING. > > > > > > > > > > Thank You for help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com > > > > > > > > > > nix_nixen napisaÅ‚(a): > > > > > > > > > > Om Gurave Namah > > > > > Dear Rafal, > > > > > i`m sure there`s much more on traditional > > > > clothing than we can > > > > > imagine. There`s a mention of sari in the > > > > Mahabharata- the famous > > > > > story of Krisna`s protecting Draupadi`s virtue > > > > that proves long > > > > > history of sari. > > > > > One of the important thing about sari and other > > > > traditional clothes > > > > > is believing that the unstitched fabric is pure. > > > > Modifications were > > > > > done with coming of the Muslims and English. > > > > Probably only Indian > > > > > scholars of history of clothing and costume could > > > > say what is > > > > > traditional in clothes we are seeing today. > > > > > Color, fabric, ornaments, wearing bring together > > > > a specific message > > > > > and honestly i think that choice of saris and > > > > dhotis of people today > > > > > (especially from the west) is accidental or half- > > > > understood. > > > > > As for Devatas my guess is that the color of the > > > > clothes and > > > > > ornaments are important. > > > > > Hope this helps in some way. > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > Tijana > > > > > > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, Rafal Gendarz > > > > <starsuponme@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bharat, > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Veda is worrying about culture. Clothes > > > > are connected to > > > > > culture > > > > > > obviously. Differentation based on role in > > > > society doesnt negate > > > > > fact > > > > > > that we can say some clothing is Vedic or not. > > > > I wanted to know how > > > > > much > > > > > > Devatas clothes are connected to current dhotis > > > > and saris (esp > > > > > those > > > > > > worn by Iskcon). I thought that would be very > > > > easy for those who > > > > > were > > > > > > born in India . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > > email: rafal@ > > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa . com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bharat - Hindu Astrology napisa?(a): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Sri Rafal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Clothes? That is a new one. Veda as a > > > > pramana to Satyam, > > > > > isn't > > > > > > > worried about clothes. Sri Adi Sankaracharya > > > > prescribed ochre > > > > > robes > > > > > > > for those taking Sanyasa. Kings, learned men > > > > and Sanyasis have > > > > > all > > > > > > > been the knowers of the Truth. They all wore > > > > different clothes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > > > > Bharat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/4/07, *Rafal Gendarz* <starsuponme@ > > > > wp.pl > > > > > > > < starsuponme > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jyotishas, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one > > > > debate with few > > > > > > > iskcon devotees which proclaim that dhoti and > > > > sari are not > > > > > vedic > > > > > > > clothes. Could You give me some classical > > > > slokas which > > > > > describe > > > > > > > that Devatas, Rsis or Sastric Women wearing > > > > Dhoti/Sari? I > > > > > tried to > > > > > > > seek in Bhagavatam, but there is no Sanskrit > > > > word for Sari nor > > > > > > > Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not attached to > > > > name, but to > > > > > form of > > > > > > > that clothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Rafal Gendarz > > > > > > > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > > > > > > > email: rafal (AT) rohinaa (DOT) com < rafal@ ...> > > > > > > > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa. com < > > > > http://www.rohinaa. com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Shailesh C Chadha > > > > > > > > > > #18A, St#11, Lane#2, East Marredpally, > > > > > Secunderabad [AP] - 5000 026, INDIA > > > > > Tel:+91 40-27733478( O);27737779 ® > > > > > (Cell) +91 984 999 4837 > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ ____- Be who you are > > > > and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and > > those > > > > who matter don't mind. > > > > > - Those who want to be SUCCESSFUL will find a way. > > > > Those who don't will find an EXCUSE. > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 12, 2007 rafal there is no so called vadic clothes, yes for diffrent worships their are some advice to wear type of cloths or color. , Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote: > > *hraum namah adityaya* > > Dear Jyotishas, > > Could you help me with one issue? I have one debate with few iskcon > devotees which proclaim that dhoti and sari are not vedic clothes. Could > You give me some classical slokas which describe that Devatas, Rsis or > Sastric Women wearing Dhoti/Sari? I tried to seek in Bhagavatam, but > there is no Sanskrit word for Sari nor Dhoti. What is Your view? Im not > attached to name, but to form of that clothing. > > > Regards, > Rafal Gendarz > Sri Jagannath Center Guru > email: rafal > Jyotish pages: www.rohinaa.com > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
