Application of Amsas (Divisions)

[Guest guest]

Dear Shreenadh ji

Namaskar

 

Vidhya Vinayam Dadadai, I am scientist as well as a astrologer, and why I am noy write my comments, becuase I have no time, so I am behaving like good reader and learner.

 

Rememer one thing , Ravan was great astologer, philospher, Tantrik, but becuase of his proud( Dambh) , he get defamed and also lost his life.

 

One thing more " Satyam Bruyat, Priyam Bruat"

 

So it doesnt matter how much you are knowlegble but still I will say you didnt learn any thing from our sage and Rishi, who have invented this subject.

 

 

Thanks

 

Dr Mishra

 

 

--- On Mon, 10/12/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:

sreesog <sreesog Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions) Received: Monday, October 12, 2009, 4:45 AM

Dear Akhil Mishra ji, Please look at the logics and arguments presented in scholarly discussions, and not to the 'body language' of some one invisible and alien to you. That would be much helpful, whether it be astro research or science research. Note: You are science researcher or a common man does not hold any importance here, but only the soundness of the arguments presented, and the references provided. If 'body language' is what desides the trthness of falsehood of something, then some 'vinayavan' would be sitting on the seat of scientific searchers and

re-searchers, rather than scientists themselves. Even if you are a common man without any digrees, an argument presented with logic and astro reference and is in tune with reality (actual asto prediction) would be accepted here, and even if told by a nobal price winner if without logic and astro reference and not in tune with reality would be thrown away like mud. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, Akhil Mishra <astro6301@.. .> wrote:>> Dear�Sreenadh ji> Namaskar> I ,�don't� mind , in current �scenario if some one �is

working �in any �old �topic or subject , and�recollecting�the data, or �as you said �purifying �an ancient �knowledge, it also �called �research, of course they are not doing invention.> Respectfully �i would like �to �say , that your �body language �is not �humble��and �it seems �that �it is full of �proud( Abhiman is �more appropriate �word).> Basically �I am �a research �scientist , so �I tried �to �correct U.> Great �regards> Dr Mishra �-Canada

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,Mr. Manoj has understood my intent 100% correct.I am preparing a separate article only on bhavottama conceptfor better understanding and appreciation of this unique concept.This is based on nadi principle and I got the hint from the bookof Mr. C.S.PATEL ( He was WONDERFUL AND VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON)"Navamsa in Astrology" ON page 20 sl 14 reads as under:"Bhavottama means a planet in same house in Rasi and Navamsa charts. It enhances the good results of the house occupied . Research on this point is necessary)"I applied on all varga charts and it works womderfully well.The Question arises why it did not come in practical use. Because we started using different kind of bhavas division completely ignoring BPHS. "ONLY COMPAETMENTAL METHOD OF HOUSE DIVISION WORKS AS EXPLAINED IN THE ARTICLE."In Laghu Jatak ,of Vahara Mihira , Ch 14 shloka 6 says that Vargottama planet or Lagna gives Rajyoga results , if aspected by several planets (more the better). I had shown in the article that This principle works very well.( Laghu Jatak is very informative tretise , and savants may study it.)Regards,'G. K. Goel

 

From: chandran_manojDate: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:13:59 -0700Re: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Dhananjayan Ji,

 

If you read Goel Ji's article you will realize that he is not talking about Lagan Vargottam and all the "Bhavas" being hence Vargottam. What he refers to as "Bhava Vargottam" is a different concept.

 

For example if a Graha is in the 4th house from Lagna in Rashi Chart and also in the 4th house from Lagna in a Varga chart (even if Lagna is not Vargottam in that Varga), then according to him, that Graha is "4th house Vargottam" for that Varga and hence is supposed to enhance the traits of that Bhava related to that Varga. Goel Ji can correct me if I am wrong.

 

This is a novel concept because Vargottam is usually only associated with Rashis and not with Bhavas.

Regards,

-Manoj

 

 

 

 

 

Dhananjayan Brahma <abhanaya > Cc: chandran_manoj Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 9:02:16 PMRe: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

 

 

Pranams,Mr.Manoj Chandran ji and Goel ji,I think Lagna vargothma is in vogue;when Lagna attains vargothma it goes without saying all Bhavas naturally becomes vargothma - am I right,Sir?Regards/Dhananjayan--- On Wed, 14/10/09, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ > wrote:

Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ >Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)ancient_indian_ astrologyWednesday, 14 October, 2009, 5:19 AM

 

 

 

Dear Goel Ji,

 

Regarding your articles, could you kindly let us know which classic talks about the Bhava Vargottam concept? It seems like a brand new concept. Is this some thing that you have developed yourself from your research?

Regards,

-Manoj

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh ji,1)  KNR (Neelam ji's astro guru) supports it2)  May be her own experience/experiments supports itAfter these two points and my YES to both, all arguments stop for me as of now because I have not yet grown beyond what I have learnt from my esteemed Guruji. Still diving and finding the pearls in the same ocean.:-) And I also have firm belief that what I have been told and what I have accepted is not deviating from classical texts. Again supported my own experience so far.

About the rest there is NO confusion in my mind. We are just trying to understand that classics have not advocated any hard and fast rules on tools used to apply these dictums. They perhaps thought that readers would be intelligent enough to devise their own means and methods. That is why you are also only beating about the same bush and saying the same things in a different manner. Astrologers from different regions have devised their own microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics have said. Instead of looking at each other’s devices with scepticism and contempt, and thinking that they are not ‘shastrokt’ may not be right for the growth of any subject. Any which way one looks at the navamsha chart, one is still using it successfully.

When LPG came in, old people made a huge fuss about the method not being pure enough and only food cooked on coals must be devoured because that’s what our shastras have recommended. Same happened when microwaves came. In a similar vein, many Jains would only drink water from the wells and use cloth filters to purify it, despite having microfilters of RO plants available with us, just because some verses in shastras say that water from the well should be consumed. There are thousands of examples when those who did not want to move ahead blamed shastras for everything.

Ancient classics have not stopped us from making advancements for techniques to be used. You may call these varga charts Frankensteins, but these are and will be remain pure and pristine glory and have emerged as tools to understand ad apply classic dictums..

Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we’ve achieved so far. If anything at all!:-)

RegardsNeelam

[Guest guest]

Sir You are rightG. K. Goel

CC: chandran_manojFrom: abhanayaDate: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:02:16 -0700Re: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

 

 

 

Pranams,Mr.Manoj Chandran ji and Goel ji,I think Lagna vargothma is in vogue;when Lagna attains vargothma it goes without saying all Bhavas naturally becomes vargothma - am I right,Sir?Regards/Dhananjayan--- On Wed, 14/10/09, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj > wrote:Manoj Chandran

<chandran_manoj >Re: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions) Date: Wednesday, 14 October, 2009, 5:19 AM

 

 

 

Dear Goel Ji,

 

Regarding your articles, could you kindly let us know which classic talks about the Bhava Vargottam concept? It seems like a brand new concept. Is this some thing that you have developed yourself from your research?

Regards,

-Manoj

 

 

 

 

 

gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>ancient_indian_ astrologyTue, October 13, 2009 9:02:32 AMRE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

DEAR friends, In BPHS CH 6 Shloka 2,3and 4 ,Parasara teaches us: "Lord Brahma has described 16 vargas .Listen to those. The same are rasi , hora , drekkana , chathurthamsa and so on ( he lists all the 16 varga.If Rasi chart is to be constructed so as the charts of other varga(s).If some person wish to take first step and then does not wish to take second , third and further steps ,it is entirely for him.Let not bring sages and classics into it.I have mailed three articles to Dr. Neelam Gupta for posting them in file section.Every savants can use these methods easily .Regards,G. K. Goel

 

ancient_indian_ astrologyneelamgupta07@ gmail.comTue, 13 Oct 2009 19:59:28 +0530Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

Dear Goel ji,That is what we have been telling Sreenadh ji. How to make a spreadsheet to study what has been given in the classics is upto us. Whether we study on the same chart or prepare separate charts or do an entirely mental exercise, it does not matter and does not require any sanction. But Sreenadh ji thinks that the way we read those varga charts is wrong and baseless and there is no classical sanction on that. We must not read the charts from lagnamsha he maintains. The amshas ca only be superimposed on Rashi chart. Please go through the discussions and contribute your views.RegardsNeelam

2009/10/13 gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

 

 

DEAR NEELAM JI AND KURSIJA JI,I am unable to understand the controversy on varga charts.Nativities and varga charts ,no more or no less, are mapping ofplanetary positions with respect to bhavas and signs.Are any instructions are required from sages?Regards,G. K. Goel

 

ancient_indian_ astrologysckursija Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:16:04 -0700

Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Neelam ji,

I agree with you. we create separate chart as navamsha, but Sreenadh use only Rashi chart and see the sign that planet occupy in navamsha. Sh Chandu lal S. Patel read the navamsha chart in the similar manner. In his book navamsha and Nadi astrology chpter 2 page 11, he give a chart as "The native is born in Virgo Ascendant, in the Sun's Hora, in Capricorn Drekkan, in Taurus Navamsha and Jupiters's trimsamsa".The Sun is in the sign of Pisces in conjunction with Venus. So Sun is in Sagittarius navamsha which falls in 4th house of rashi chart so Sun is sukhamshayukta

Venus is Aquarius in navamsha which falls in 6th house of rashi chart so Venus is in shashtamshayukta and so on, We can read the planet in rashi chart with reference with varga amsha as Horamshayukta, Drekkanamshayukta or navamamshayukta etc.

Regards

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Drat Manoj,I would not go upto that extent.No doubt , I framed the rules and some rules are picked up from classics also.'It is most unfortunate that Mr. Sreenad is reacting to Bhovottama conceptwith out even making a sincere effort to study examples. IS It not a sad situation?G. K. Goel

 

From: chandran_manojDate: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:49:11 -0700Re: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Goel Ji,

 

Regarding your articles, could you kindly let us know which classic talks about the Bhava Vargottam concept? It seems like a brand new concept. Is this some thing that you have developed yourself from your research?

Regards,

-Manoj

 

 

 

 

 

gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 9:02:32 AMRE: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

DEAR friends, In BPHS CH 6 Shloka 2,3and 4 ,Parasara teaches us: "Lord Brahma has described 16 vargas .Listen to those. The same are rasi , hora , drekkana , chathurthamsa and so on ( he lists all the 16 varga.If Rasi chart is to be constructed so as the charts of other varga(s).If some person wish to take first step and then does not wish to take second , third and further steps ,it is entirely for him.Let not bring sages and classics into it.I have mailed three articles to Dr. Neelam Gupta for posting them in file section.Every savants can use these methods easily .Regards,G. K. Goel

 

ancient_indian_ astrologyneelamgupta07@ gmail.comTue, 13 Oct 2009 19:59:28 +0530Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

Dear Goel ji,That is what we have been telling Sreenadh ji. How to make a spreadsheet to study what has been given in the classics is upto us. Whether we study on the same chart or prepare separate charts or do an entirely mental exercise, it does not matter and does not require any sanction. But Sreenadh ji thinks that the way we read those varga charts is wrong and baseless and there is no classical sanction on that. We must not read the charts from lagnamsha he maintains. The amshas ca only be superimposed on Rashi chart. Please go through the discussions and contribute your views.RegardsNeelam

2009/10/13 gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>

 

 

DEAR NEELAM JI AND KURSIJA JI,I am unable to understand the controversy on varga charts.Nativities and varga charts ,no more or no less, are mapping ofplanetary positions with respect to bhavas and signs.Are any instructions are required from sages?Regards,G. K. Goel

 

ancient_indian_ astrologysckursija Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:16:04 -0700

Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Neelam ji,

I agree with you. we create separate chart as navamsha, but Sreenadh use only Rashi chart and see the sign that planet occupy in navamsha. Sh Chandu lal S. Patel read the navamsha chart in the similar manner. In his book navamsha and Nadi astrology chpter 2 page 11, he give a chart as "The native is born in Virgo Ascendant, in the Sun's Hora, in Capricorn Drekkan, in Taurus Navamsha and Jupiters's trimsamsa".The Sun is in the sign of Pisces in conjunction with Venus. So Sun is in Sagittarius navamsha which falls in 4th house of rashi chart so Sun is sukhamshayukta

Venus is Aquarius in navamsha which falls in 6th house of rashi chart so Venus is in shashtamshayukta and so on, We can read the planet in rashi chart with reference with varga amsha as Horamshayukta, Drekkanamshayukta or navamamshayukta etc.

Regards

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Neelam ji,

//Astrologers from different regions have devised their own microscopes,

telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics have

said.Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and contempt,

and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for the growth of

any subject.//

The why don't you use extra saturnian planets, tropical astrology,

progression, western aspects, lay lines, relocational astrology, comets,

satellites and meteriorites, the distant stars like sirius and son on?!! That

will make things look more modern and advanced! Simply that answer to this is

that - all those are NOT our subject! We are into ANCIENT Indian astrology and

so let us be sincere to it. What we discuss here should be " shastrokt " and

everything else we can use as a personal tool - in personal readings or other

groups. Just remember our conflict with Robert Koch ji and Prafulla ji - they

were bringing in extra saturnian planets and comets - and the group interactions

were getting strained and group losing interest. We are here to learn astrology

" as told in classics " ; and once we are successful in it, we can think of

" modern " " innovative " " new born " microscopes and spread sheets. It doesn't

make sense to jump before we stand! At least we should know " What classics have

said " , " to make new devices to elaborate upon it " . If we haven't covered the

first step, what is the meaning in going to the second? If not based on the

first, what is the use of the second? Especially in a group dedicated to attend

the first question? Let us try to understand " What the classics said? " in a

better way. That itself is the purpose of this group I believe - and beyond that

is not and should not be a domain we should concentrate upon here.

//> *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request

someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job

earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved so

far. If anything at all!:-)*//

Yes we can. I request Chakraborty ji to do the same. I won't be pumping mails

to you on this subject anymore, even though I may continue interaction on this

subject with Shanmukha ji and Utkal ji if they are interested. Because I think,

I have something extra to learn/gain from Shanmukha ji and his perspective at

least on this matter. (So continuing the interaction with them on this, is for

my own benefit - I hope you won't object to that).

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, neelam gupta

<neelamgupta07 wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh ji,

>

> 1) KNR (Neelam ji's astro guru) supports it

> 2) May be her own experience/experiments supports it

>

> After these two points and my YES to both, all arguments stop for me as of

> now because I have not yet grown beyond what I have learnt from my esteemed

> Guruji. Still diving and finding the pearls in the same ocean.:-) And I also

> have firm belief that what I have been told and what I have accepted is not

> deviating from classical texts. Again supported my own experience so far.

>

> About the rest there is NO confusion in my mind. We are just trying to

> understand that classics have not advocated any hard and fast rules on tools

> used to apply these dictums. They perhaps thought that readers would be

> intelligent enough to devise their own means and methods. That is why you

> are also only beating about the same bush and saying the same things in a

> different manner. Astrologers from different regions have devised their own

> microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics

> have said. Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and

> contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for

> the growth of any subject. Any which way one looks at the navamsha chart,

> one is still using it successfully.

>

> When LPG came in, old people made a huge fuss about the method not being

> pure enough and only food cooked on coals must be devoured because that's

> what our shastras have recommended. Same happened when microwaves came. In a

> similar vein, many Jains would only drink water from the wells and use cloth

> filters to purify it, despite having microfilters of RO plants available

> with us, just because some verses in shastras say that water from the well

> should be consumed. There are thousands of examples when those who did not

> want to move ahead blamed shastras for everything.

>

> Ancient classics have not stopped us from making advancements for techniques

> to be used. You may call these varga charts Frankensteins, but these are and

> will be remain pure and pristine glory and have emerged as tools to

> understand ad apply classic dictums..

>

> *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request

> someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job

> earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved

> so far. If anything at all!:-)*

>

> Regards

> Neelam

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh ji,This is only a break, not withdrawing yet! :-) The game is on hopefully and there is no hurry. It is a long journey! And journey after journey! And I have proposed a break for myself (just going to be a little busy because of the festive season!), certainly you must continue to play with other players. We all enjoy your game and learn a lot from it.:-)

Thanks and RegardsNeelam2009/10/14 sreesog <sreesog

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Neelam ji,

//Astrologers from different regions have devised their own microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics have said.Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for the growth of any subject.//

The why don't you use extra saturnian planets, tropical astrology, progression, western aspects, lay lines, relocational astrology, comets, satellites and meteriorites, the distant stars like sirius and son on?!! That will make things look more modern and advanced! Simply that answer to this is that - all those are NOT our subject! We are into ANCIENT Indian astrology and so let us be sincere to it. What we discuss here should be " shastrokt " and everything else we can use as a personal tool - in personal readings or other groups. Just remember our conflict with Robert Koch ji and Prafulla ji - they were bringing in extra saturnian planets and comets - and the group interactions were getting strained and group losing interest. We are here to learn astrology " as told in classics " ; and once we are successful in it, we can think of " modern " " innovative " " new born " microscopes and spread sheets. It doesn't make sense to jump before we stand! At least we should know " What classics have said " , " to make new devices to elaborate upon it " . If we haven't covered the first step, what is the meaning in going to the second? If not based on the first, what is the use of the second? Especially in a group dedicated to attend the first question? Let us try to understand " What the classics said? " in a better way. That itself is the purpose of this group I believe - and beyond that is not and should not be a domain we should concentrate upon here.

//> *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved so far. If anything at all!:-)*//

Yes we can. I request Chakraborty ji to do the same. I won't be pumping mails to you on this subject anymore, even though I may continue interaction on this subject with Shanmukha ji and Utkal ji if they are interested. Because I think, I have something extra to learn/gain from Shanmukha ji and his perspective at least on this matter. (So continuing the interaction with them on this, is for my own benefit - I hope you won't object to that).

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, neelam gupta <neelamgupta07 wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh ji,

>

> 1) KNR (Neelam ji's astro guru) supports it

> 2) May be her own experience/experiments supports it

>

> After these two points and my YES to both, all arguments stop for me as of

> now because I have not yet grown beyond what I have learnt from my esteemed

> Guruji. Still diving and finding the pearls in the same ocean.:-) And I also

> have firm belief that what I have been told and what I have accepted is not

> deviating from classical texts. Again supported my own experience so far.

>

> About the rest there is NO confusion in my mind. We are just trying to

> understand that classics have not advocated any hard and fast rules on tools

> used to apply these dictums. They perhaps thought that readers would be

> intelligent enough to devise their own means and methods. That is why you

> are also only beating about the same bush and saying the same things in a

> different manner. Astrologers from different regions have devised their own

> microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics

> have said. Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and

> contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for

> the growth of any subject. Any which way one looks at the navamsha chart,

> one is still using it successfully.

>

> When LPG came in, old people made a huge fuss about the method not being

> pure enough and only food cooked on coals must be devoured because that's

> what our shastras have recommended. Same happened when microwaves came. In a

> similar vein, many Jains would only drink water from the wells and use cloth

> filters to purify it, despite having microfilters of RO plants available

> with us, just because some verses in shastras say that water from the well

> should be consumed. There are thousands of examples when those who did not

> want to move ahead blamed shastras for everything.

>

> Ancient classics have not stopped us from making advancements for techniques

> to be used. You may call these varga charts Frankensteins, but these are and

> will be remain pure and pristine glory and have emerged as tools to

> understand ad apply classic dictums..

>

> *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request

> someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job

> earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved

> so far. If anything at all!:-)*

>

> Regards

> Neelam

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Neelam Gupta ji,

Thanks for the post. When ever there is some thing new, some people do make hue and cry. Even at the time when astronomer (I do not remember his name) said that the earth is revolving around the Sun, there was hue and cry. Worship only truth. Truth only survive.If it is Sayam, Shivam and Sunderum it lives for ever. The varga/amsha is the creation of classic to under stand the different aspect of life. Why they created D/20 for education or D/30 for arishtha or D/3 brother and part of the body etc. I do not know at least. But our rishes created varga. Now these varga has been represented in varga chart/ divisional charts. There should not be any problem. The development is the rule of life. The evolution is a must. The Universe is changing with every blink of eye. It is the sign of life. We should under stand the astrology given in classics and seek the answer to the present day problems. If the classical astrology is not able to give the answer

to the present day problems, keep it in the library for historical reference.

I again will submit that Varga charts are nothing else but the representation of varga in the shape of a chart.

Our senior like Dr.BV raman, K.N.Rao, Santhanam, Iyer, Katave, K.S.Krinamurthy, Krushna Jugalkalani and many more have done and are doing hard and untiring work to make astrology beneficial for the educated common man and save from blind unscientific tradition.

Regards

--- On Wed, 10/14/09, neelam gupta <neelamgupta07 wrote:

neelam gupta <neelamgupta07Re: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions) Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:33 AM

 

Dear Sreenadh ji,1) KNR (Neelam ji's astro guru) supports it2) May be her own experience/experiments supports itAfter these two points and my YES to both, all arguments stop for me as of now because I have not yet grown beyond what I have learnt from my esteemed Guruji. Still diving and finding the pearls in the same ocean.:-) And I also have firm belief that what I have been told and what I have accepted is not deviating from classical texts. Again supported my own experience so far.About the rest there is NO confusion in my mind. We are just trying to understand that classics have not advocated any hard and fast rules on tools used to apply these dictums. They perhaps thought that readers would be intelligent enough to devise their own means and methods. That is why you are also only beating about the same bush and saying the same things in a different manner. Astrologers from different regions have

devised their own microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics have said. Instead of looking at each other’s devices with scepticism and contempt, and thinking that they are not ‘shastrokt’ may not be right for the growth of any subject. Any which way one looks at the navamsha chart, one is still using it successfully.When LPG came in, old people made a huge fuss about the method not being pure enough and only food cooked on coals must be devoured because that’s what our shastras have recommended. Same happened when microwaves came. In a similar vein, many Jains would only drink water from the wells and use cloth filters to purify it, despite having microfilters of RO plants available with us, just because some verses in shastras say that water from the well should be consumed. There are thousands of examples when those who did not want to move ahead blamed shastras for everything.Ancient classics

have not stopped us from making advancements for techniques to be used. You may call these varga charts Frankensteins, but these are and will be remain pure and pristine glory and have emerged as tools to understand ad apply classic dictums..Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we’ve achieved so far. If anything at all!:-)RegardsNeelam

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Kursija ji,Thanks for the nice mail.Chalti Chakki dekhkar diya Kabeera royeDui patan ke beech mein saabut bacha na koi!RegardsNeelam

[Guest guest]

Dear Neelam ji,

 

This is not fair...I don't understand the most touching [i assume] part of the

mail!

 

blessings,

 

Renu

 

, neelam gupta

<neelamgupta07 wrote:

>

> Dear Dr Kursija ji,

>

> Thanks for the nice mail.

>

> *Chalti Chakki dekhkar diya Kabeera roye

> Dui patan ke beech mein saabut bacha na koi!

>

> *Regards

> Neelam*

> *

>

> **

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Renu ji,Sorry! You should be more visible!Dui Patan (actually two parts of a grinding stone)  signify earth and sky and within the ambit of these two is all creation and life as also the manifestation of all natural phenomenon of dualities – day and night, life and death, joys and sorrows, thereby making life forever in motion (Chalti Chakki the moving wheels of grinding stone) and an ever changing process. Trapped in this, whatever we see is perishable (like wheat becomes flour),. Nothing that we comprehend is eternal.

Hope that makes sense:-)RegardsNeelam2009/10/14 renunw <renunw

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Neelam ji,

 

This is not fair...I don't understand the most touching [i assume] part of the mail!

 

blessings,

 

Renu

 

, neelam gupta <neelamgupta07 wrote:

>

> Dear Dr Kursija ji,

>

> Thanks for the nice mail.

>

> *Chalti Chakki dekhkar diya Kabeera roye

> Dui patan ke beech mein saabut bacha na koi!

>

> *Regards

> Neelam*

> *

>

> **

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Neelam ji,

 

Thanks and that was beautiful...It is indeed the eternal truth!

 

Sometimes it is comfortable to be invisible....But sure..I will take your advice

and try to be more visible:)

 

blessings,

 

Renu

 

 

 

, neelam gupta

<neelamgupta07 wrote:

>

> Dear Renu ji,

>

> Sorry! You should be more visible!

>

> Dui Patan (actually two parts of a grinding stone) signify earth and sky

> and within the ambit of these two is all creation and life as also the

> manifestation of all natural phenomenon of dualities – day and night, life

> and death, joys and sorrows, thereby making life forever in motion (Chalti

> Chakki the moving wheels of grinding stone) and an ever changing process.

> Trapped in this, whatever we see is perishable (like wheat becomes flour),.

> Nothing that we comprehend is eternal.

>

> Hope that makes sense:-)

>

> Regards

> Neelam

>

>

>

>

>

> 2009/10/14 renunw <renunw

>

> >

> >

> > Dear Neelam ji,

> >

> > This is not fair...I don't understand the most touching [i assume] part of

> > the mail!

> >

> > blessings,

> >

> > Renu

> >

> >

> > --- In

<%40.\

com>,

> > neelam gupta <neelamgupta07@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Dr Kursija ji,

> > >

> > > Thanks for the nice mail.

> > >

> > > *Chalti Chakki dekhkar diya Kabeera roye

> > > Dui patan ke beech mein saabut bacha na koi!

> > >

> > > *Regards

> > > Neelam*

> > > *

> > >

> > > **

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Manoj ji,

In Kerala Tamboola Prashna is used in 2 ways -

1) as part of Ashtamangala Prashna

2) as an independent tool

There are 2 books available which extensively deals with this subject alone.

1) Written by Me (Sreenadh) from Trivandrum

2) Written by S.K. Krishnan Nair from Trivandrum (The astrologer whom CS Patel

mentions in P 203 of his book " Navamsa In Astrology " )

Both SK Krishnan Nair and Me are the students of the same guru " Raghavan

Nambyar " of Trivandrum.

But ofcourse the real asto scholars of Kerala usually do not need our books to

handle " Tamboola Prashna " in an excellent and efficient manner since the quotes

dealt within these books are already available to them from many popular books

such as " Prashnamarga " , " Prashna Kautuka " , " Tamboola Manjari " etc; further they

improve upon this tool based on their excellent understanding of Ashtamangala

Prashna system and Natal horoscopy as well.

Just sharing some extra info.

Good to know that you enjoyed Ashtamangala Prashna session conducted in Malai

Mandir, RK Puram, New Delhi and found it correct, informative and interesting.

It is always a pleasure to attend those informative functions that become

beneficial to the whole community, and strengthen our trust in this great branch

of knowledge called astrology.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, Manoj Kumar <mouji99

wrote:

>

> I have attended one ashtamangala prashana session conducted by Namboodri

Brahmins at Malai Mandir, R.K. Puram, New Delhi and found them giving correct

predictions from Tamboola Patrams.

>

> regards,

>

> Mouji

[Guest guest]

One will visit such sessions only if he has faith in such subjects. Second the exercise was quite elaborate and spread over 7 days and from the Tamboola Patra, pilfirage in storage was found and the man incharge of stores pleaded sorry in front of every one. Thanks for information Sreenadh ji, but yes, I am aware of such practises, though have not authored any book so far, but presume have visited most parts of India and interacted with asrologers with humility, including the copper plate readings in Ganjam district of Orissa.

Thanks for the information.

 

Jupiter has now become direct.

 

regards,

 

Mouji

 

 

sreesog <sreesog Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 2:31:06 PM Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

Dear Manoj ji, In Kerala Tamboola Prashna is used in 2 ways -1) as part of Ashtamangala Prashna 2) as an independent toolThere are 2 books available which extensively deals with this subject alone.1) Written by Me (Sreenadh) from Trivandrum 2) Written by S.K. Krishnan Nair from Trivandrum (The astrologer whom CS Patel mentions in P 203 of his book "Navamsa In Astrology")Both SK Krishnan Nair and Me are the students of the same guru "Raghavan Nambyar" of Trivandrum.But ofcourse the real asto scholars of Kerala usually do not need our books to handle "Tamboola Prashna" in an excellent and efficient manner since the quotes dealt within these books are already available to them from many popular books such as "Prashnamarga" , "Prashna Kautuka", "Tamboola Manjari" etc; further they improve upon this tool based on their excellent understanding of Ashtamangala Prashna system and Natal horoscopy as well.Just sharing some

extra info.Good to know that you enjoyed Ashtamangala Prashna session conducted in Malai Mandir, RK Puram, New Delhi and found it correct, informative and interesting. It is always a pleasure to attend those informative functions that become beneficial to the whole community, and strengthen our trust in this great branch of knowledge called astrology. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Kumar <mouji99 > wrote:>> I have attended one ashtamangala prashana session conducted by Namboodri Brahmins at Malai Mandir, R.K. Puram, New Delhi and found them giving correct predictions from Tamboola Patrams.> > regards, > > Mouji

[Guest guest]

And indeed it was a pleasure attending the session with brahmins first discussing astrological principles between themselves, spending lot and lot of time on each betel leaf and then finally coming to conclusion. Shri K.N. Rao was specially invited for the session and he was also present during the entire period of prashna. It was blissful.

 

regards,

 

Mouji

 

 

 

sreesog <sreesog Sent: Wed, October 14, 2009 2:31:06 PM Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

Dear Manoj ji, In Kerala Tamboola Prashna is used in 2 ways -1) as part of Ashtamangala Prashna 2) as an independent toolThere are 2 books available which extensively deals with this subject alone.1) Written by Me (Sreenadh) from Trivandrum 2) Written by S.K. Krishnan Nair from Trivandrum (The astrologer whom CS Patel mentions in P 203 of his book "Navamsa In Astrology")Both SK Krishnan Nair and Me are the students of the same guru "Raghavan Nambyar" of Trivandrum.But ofcourse the real asto scholars of Kerala usually do not need our books to handle "Tamboola Prashna" in an excellent and efficient manner since the quotes dealt within these books are already available to them from many popular books such as "Prashnamarga" , "Prashna Kautuka", "Tamboola Manjari" etc; further they improve upon this tool based on their excellent understanding of Ashtamangala Prashna system and Natal horoscopy as well.Just sharing some

extra info.Good to know that you enjoyed Ashtamangala Prashna session conducted in Malai Mandir, RK Puram, New Delhi and found it correct, informative and interesting. It is always a pleasure to attend those informative functions that become beneficial to the whole community, and strengthen our trust in this great branch of knowledge called astrology. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Kumar <mouji99 > wrote:>> I have attended one ashtamangala prashana session conducted by Namboodri Brahmins at Malai Mandir, R.K. Puram, New Delhi and found them giving correct predictions from Tamboola Patrams.> > regards, > > Mouji

[Guest guest]

Dear Manoj ji,

//the exercise was quite elaborate and spread over 7 days //

Usually a Ashtamangala Prashna takes 3 days. But it could be as brief as 1 day

or elaborate as 7 days or even 15 days. In some big temple of Kerala when

Ashtamangala Prashna is conducted at times it goes upto 15 days or so.

Especially I remember Kapali Nambootiri (from Kannur Dist.) who is famous for

such Marathon Prashnas. One such marathon Prashna (in which Kapali Nambootiri

was not part of) was the one conducted at the Vishnu Temple of Edakkattu

Nambutiri's (Author of Prashnamarga) native place " Edakkadu " ,in Kannur

District,Kerala. This temple is still there and is famous, and is mentioned in

Prashnamarga. This temple is given special reverence by Kerala astrological

community, especially of Northen Kerala. The original family of Author of

Prashnamarga no more lives there. But it is said that Edakkattu Nambutiri wrote

Prshanamarga for one of his prime disciples " Kookkaniyal " . Later Kookaniyal

become a student to " Talakkulattu Govinda Bhattatiri (the author of Dasadhyayi) "

as well. Kookkaniyal later wrote a book in Malayalam with the name " Prashna

Reeti " . The family of Kookkaniyal still lives near the temple, and current

scholar in that family is " Edakkadu Narayanan " - he is a good friend of mine. As

per his request I have prepared a commentary for " Prashna Reeti " in Malayalam;

but that is yet to get published. Anyway the point is, when I think about

Ashtamangala prashna, memories of excellent kerala astrologers, unbroken

tradition, places of reverences, astrologer friends and much more comes to me.

But for the past 4 years, I am away from Kerala, cut away from direct

interactions with them, and not getting chance to attend elaborate Ashtamangala

prashnas. Life is like that....what to do.

 

You share a special bit of information in your mail-

//the copper plate readings in Ganjam district of Orissa.//

Can you tell us something more about this system/tradition, and rules they

follow?

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, Manoj Kumar <mouji99

wrote:

>

> One will visit such sessions only if he has faith in such subjects. Second the

exercise was quite elaborate and spread over 7 days and from the Tamboola Patra,

pilfirage in storage was found and the man incharge of stores pleaded sorry in

front of every one. Thanks for information Sreenadh ji, but yes, I am aware of

such practises, though have not authored any book so far, but presume have

visited most parts of India and interacted with asrologers with humility,

including the copper plate readings in Ganjam district of Orissa.

>

> Thanks for the information.

>

> Jupiter has now become direct.

>

> regards,

>

> Mouji

>

>

> ________________________________

> sreesog <sreesog

>

> Wed, October 14, 2009 2:31:06 PM

> Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

>

>  

> Dear Manoj ji,

> In Kerala Tamboola Prashna is used in 2 ways -

> 1) as part of Ashtamangala Prashna

> 2) as an independent tool

> There are 2 books available which extensively deals with this subject alone.

> 1) Written by Me (Sreenadh) from Trivandrum

> 2) Written by S.K. Krishnan Nair from Trivandrum (The astrologer whom CS Patel

mentions in P 203 of his book " Navamsa In Astrology " )

> Both SK Krishnan Nair and Me are the students of the same guru " Raghavan

Nambyar " of Trivandrum.

> But ofcourse the real asto scholars of Kerala usually do not need our books to

handle " Tamboola Prashna " in an excellent and efficient manner since the quotes

dealt within these books are already available to them from many popular books

such as " Prashnamarga " , " Prashna Kautuka " , " Tamboola Manjari " etc; further they

improve upon this tool based on their excellent understanding of Ashtamangala

Prashna system and Natal horoscopy as well.

> Just sharing some extra info.

> Good to know that you enjoyed Ashtamangala Prashna session conducted in Malai

Mandir, RK Puram, New Delhi and found it correct, informative and interesting.

It is always a pleasure to attend those informative functions that become

beneficial to the whole community, and strengthen our trust in this great branch

of knowledge called astrology.

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Kumar <mouji99@ >

wrote:

> >

> > I have attended one ashtamangala prashana session conducted by Namboodri

Brahmins at Malai Mandir, R.K. Puram, New Delhi and found them giving correct

predictions from Tamboola Patrams.

> >

> > regards,

> >

> > Mouji

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Learned Seniors,

 

The following is an attempt to summarize the discussions on

"Application of Amsha (Division)"

 

The discussion was attended by many learned persons who appeared

to be favoring one of two approaches.

 

(For brevity's sake, let us call parties by name A & B)

 

Group A : Favors a strong classical approach. Any dictums used

need to be supported by Rishi Hora / astrology classics.

The motto appears to be "Let us understand our classics

first before projecting anything new. Basics first"

Group B : Favors classics. However, ready to accept something

if it logical & works consistently.

 

Although not explicitly stated, the discussion is based on the Cyclic way

of division of sign. The other methods like Jaimini or Kalchakra navamsa

was not discussed, although Jaimini was mentioned at starting phase.

 

The main points that came up are :

 

1) Terminology

 

The terminolgy was not evenly applied and hence created some confusion

Amsa --- Part of a sign. Like within sign of Aries, there will be 9 nos. of navamsa

which are called Aries navamsa.

Amsaka - After division of sign, where a planet / point will be posited.

Like 4th navamsa of Taurus will get posited in Aries

sign in navamsa & hence it is called as in Aries navamsaka.

Similarly for other signs too.

 

2) The main discussion was regarding whether after division of signs

and getting navamsa position of planets etc., what do we do ?

 

Group A : amsa positions are to be put in Rasi chart itself.

The lagna is the focal point. There can not be any other focal point. The

common usage of amsa chart(D-chart) is not supported by any classics.

 

Group B stated that in addition to above statement, the amsa positions

can be independently put in a chart with focal point being the lagnamsa.

That is creation of what is known as Amsa chart or D-charts. This method

has been used by many reputed astrolgers effectively and works well.

 

The high level of discussion created confusion in lay forum members

regarding follwong points :

 

a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

what extent ? Whether a planet deb. in rasi chart but exalted in

navamsa would behave in an exlated manner ?

The veterans replied that such level of modification is not possible.

 

b) An unstated question remained in background. (Memebrs assumed

answers for it, I guess). 'Lagna is very important. Hence lagnamsa

is also important. But what is the level of importance that the same

can or can not be used as a focal point ?"

 

c) Another unstated question was whether relative position of planets

in navamsa conveys any information ?

Group A stated that it does not mean anything. Group B stated

otherwise.

 

d) Whether there can be dristi/ aspects in navamsa ? Reference of

Rohini-Ranjan-ji was provided. However same was quashed by group A.

 

However, Group B stated that dristi can be utilized in D-chart as well.

A side discussion was also going on about presence of Yoga in D-charts

mentioned in Mansagiri and 'scattered in various classics'. This was

not picked by Group A

 

e) There was also discussion about 'Navamsa Tulya Rasi' and 'rasi tulya

navamsa'. However ellaboration was not provided and hence its significance

in the present discussion (whether these techniques are supporting Group

A or Gr B) was not understood by me.

 

f) Reference about teachings of Sri B V Raman, Sri K N Rao-ji and other

reputable astrologers were drawn. However, Group A suggested that

the methods are not supported by any classics.

 

g) The famous book by CS Patel-ji was discussed in detail. Group B stated

that the writing supports the usage of D-charts. Group A again quashed

that argument by providing a detailed analysis of the same book.

 

h) Sri Goel-ji provided a write-up about how to use D-charts. That was

readily downloaded and studied by many members.

 

i) There was also an illustration about Indira Gandhi-s 7th house in Rasi

D-9 chart was presented. It showed (as per author) how D-charts can

show something which may be not seen in Rasi chart. However, arguments

are still going on

 

In essence, the following remains the Salient points :(as per my understanding)

 

1) Rasi chart provides some information.

2) The navamsa (or any amsa) is put in Rasi chart, it provides some Additional

information.

3) Lagnamsa is an important point. Using it a focal point and creating D-chart

provides another level of added information. The question is whether this

projection (and thereby removing natal lagna as focus) is giving accurate

additional information all the times ?

 

Group A stated that Basics should be understood clearly before accepting

or rejecting anything. Otherwise, there would be no end in taking in many

other concepts and thereby diluting our own base.

 

Anyway, I hope after Diwali Celebration is over, someone would provide us

with a good blind chart and we will see how Classical way of using navamsa

gives us additional information. And whether D-charts provides us further

Reliable information or not.

 

BTW, I don't have any chart to offer. Someone else may kindly do it.

 

regards

 

Chakraborty

 

 

 

 

sreesog [sreesog] Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

Dear Neelam ji, //Astrologers from different regions have devised their own microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics have said.Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for the growth of any subject.//The why don't you use extra saturnian planets, tropical astrology, progression, western aspects, lay lines, relocational astrology, comets, satellites and meteriorites, the distant stars like sirius and son on?!! That will make things look more modern and advanced! Simply that answer to this is that - all those are NOT our subject! We are into ANCIENT Indian astrology and so let us be sincere to it. What we discuss here should be "shastrokt" and everything else we can use as a personal tool - in personal readings or other groups. Just remember our conflict with Robert Koch ji and Prafulla ji - they were bringing in extra saturnian planets and comets - and the group interactions were getting strained and group losing interest. We are here to learn astrology "as told in classics"; and once we are successful in it, we can think of "moderninnovativenew born" microscopes and spread sheets. It doesn't make sense to jump before we stand! At least we should know "What classics have said", "to make new devices to elaborate upon it". If we haven't covered the first step, what is the meaning in going to the second? If not based on the first, what is the use of the second? Especially in a group dedicated to attend the first question? Let us try to understand "What the classics said?" in a better way. That itself is the purpose of this group I believe - and beyond that is not and should not be a domain we should concentrate upon here.//> *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved so far. If anything at all!:-)*//Yes we can. I request Chakraborty ji to do the same. I won't be pumping mails to you on this subject anymore, even though I may continue interaction on this subject with Shanmukha ji and Utkal ji if they are interested. Because I think, I have something extra to learn/gain from Shanmukha ji and his perspective at least on this matter. (So continuing the interaction with them on this, is for my own benefit - I hope you won't object to that). :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , neelam gupta <neelamgupta07 wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > 1) KNR (Neelam ji's astro guru) supports it> 2) May be her own experience/experiments supports it> > After these two points and my YES to both, all arguments stop for me as of> now because I have not yet grown beyond what I have learnt from my esteemed> Guruji. Still diving and finding the pearls in the same ocean.:-) And I also> have firm belief that what I have been told and what I have accepted is not> deviating from classical texts. Again supported my own experience so far.> > About the rest there is NO confusion in my mind. We are just trying to> understand that classics have not advocated any hard and fast rules on tools> used to apply these dictums. They perhaps thought that readers would be> intelligent enough to devise their own means and methods. That is why you> are also only beating about the same bush and saying the same things in a> different manner. Astrologers from different regions have devised their own> microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics> have said. Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and> contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for> the growth of any subject. Any which way one looks at the navamsha chart,> one is still using it successfully.> > When LPG came in, old people made a huge fuss about the method not being> pure enough and only food cooked on coals must be devoured because that's> what our shastras have recommended. Same happened when microwaves came. In a> similar vein, many Jains would only drink water from the wells and use cloth> filters to purify it, despite having microfilters of RO plants available> with us, just because some verses in shastras say that water from the well> should be consumed. There are thousands of examples when those who did not> want to move ahead blamed shastras for everything.> > Ancient classics have not stopped us from making advancements for techniques> to be used. You may call these varga charts Frankensteins, but these are and> will be remain pure and pristine glory and have emerged as tools to> understand ad apply classic dictums..> > *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request> someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job> earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved> so far. If anything at all!:-)*> > Regards> Neelam>This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[Guest guest]

Pranams,Mr.Mano Chandranji,I was under the impression that vargothmam relates to grha sthaapitham in one and the same specified sign, both in the Rasi and Navamsa only ( with out extension of this concept to other divisional charts).However thank you very much for having given me an opportunity to learn modern Astrology / interpretation.Regards/Dhananjayan--- On Wed, 14/10/09, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote:Manoj Chandran <chandran_manojRe: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions) Date: Wednesday, 14 October, 2009, 9:43 AM

 

 

 

Dear Dhananjayan Ji,

 

If you read Goel Ji's article you will realize that he is not talking about Lagan Vargottam and all the "Bhavas" being hence Vargottam. What he refers to as "Bhava Vargottam" is a different concept.

 

For example if a Graha is in the 4th house from Lagna in Rashi Chart and also in the 4th house from Lagna in a Varga chart (even if Lagna is not Vargottam in that Varga), then according to him, that Graha is "4th house Vargottam" for that Varga and hence is supposed to enhance the traits of that Bhava related to that Varga. Goel Ji can correct me if I am wrong.

 

This is a novel concept because Vargottam is usually only associated with Rashis and not with Bhavas.

Regards,

-Manoj

 

 

 

 

 

Dhananjayan Brahma <abhanaya >ancient_indian_ astrologyCc: chandran_manoj@ Tue, October 13, 2009 9:02:16 PMRe: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

 

 

 

 

Pranams,Mr.Manoj Chandran ji and Goel ji,I think Lagna vargothma is in vogue;when Lagna attains vargothma it goes without saying all Bhavas naturally becomes vargothma - am I right,Sir?Regards/Dhananjayan--- On Wed, 14/10/09, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ > wrote:

Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ >Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)ancient_indian_ astrologyWednesday, 14 October, 2009, 5:19 AM

 

 

 

Dear Goel Ji,

 

Regarding your articles, could you kindly let us know which classic talks about the Bhava Vargottam concept? It seems like a brand new concept. Is this some thing that you have developed yourself from your research?

Regards,

-Manoj

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji,

That was nice - well done!

It seems that some of the doubts raised in this message should not be left

unanswered - therefore I will try to attend the same.

//'Lagna is very important. Hence lagnamsa is also important. But what is the

level of importance that the same can or can not be used as a focal point ? " //

Actually Lagna is very important and so is Lagnamsa and LagnamsaKA (please

check the terminology). LagnamsaKA is considered as one of the major focal point

as well. Not for NavamsaKA chart (in the way D-chartists considers it); but for

Natal Rasi Chart itself. LagnamsaKA is one of major Arudhas (starting points)

considered and elaborated in texts like Prashnamarga. That is, we are adviced to

consider " NATAL planetary position " starting from LagnamsaKA sign, in the same

way we do with Lagna. This is one of the subtle, but well reputed, classic

supported technique. So the point is the traditionalists do not reject the

importance of LagnamsaKA, but rejects the way in which it is used by D-chartists

(i.e. as a starting point in D-chart to read amsaka positions).

// A side discussion was also going on about presence of Yoga in D-charts

mentioned in Mansagiri and 'scattered in various classics'. This was not picked

by Group A //

Yoga in NavamsaKA is well accepted by traditionalists - considering Yoga in

Navamsa is well acceptable and is supported by the classics, since this is very

logical. Let me explain with an example - Think that Sun is in 1st navamsa of

Aries, and Jupiter in 7th navamsa of Libra. The NavamsaKA of both Sun and

Jupiter will be Aries (i.e. The 1st Navamsa of Aries and 7th Navamsa of Libra

falls in Aries). Or in other words, Sun is placed in Aries sign in an area

allocated to Aries sign itself (within Aries sign). Similarly Jupiter is placed

in Libra sign in an area allocated to Aries sign (within Libra sign). Thus both

Sun and Jupiter is placed in a sub division (Navamsa) allocated to Aries itself

- and thus can convey something common through Aries/Mars. i.e. Sun and Jupiter

is connected here THROUGH Aries/Mars. This is a real connection (Yoga in

NavamsaKA) and therefore acceptable. Here also some caution on the use of

correct terminology-

* Yoga in Navamsa means - both planets are placed in the same sign same

Navamsa. Therefore there is no question of doubting whether it is a Yoga or not.

It IS a Yoga.

* Yoga in NavamsaKA means - both the planets are placed in different signs,

but in an sub-division (Navamsa) allocated to the same sign (same NavamsaKA).

The above explanation clarifies that this too is considered as a Yoga (i.e. Yoga

in NavamsaKA) as per traditionalists and astro classics.

//> a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

> what extent ? Whether a planet deb. in rasi chart but exalted in

> navamsa would behave in an exlated manner ?

> The veterans replied that such level of modification is not possible.//

They are absolutely right.

//> a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

> what extent ? //

This can be discussed in detail, by considering all the Navamaka possibilities

of a Single planet in one sign, and referring to the classical dictums available

related to the same; and then cross checking the same with live examples.

//> Anyway, I hope ........., someone would provide us

> with a good blind chart and we will see how Classical way of using navamsa

gives us additional information. And whether D-charts provides us further

Reliable information or not.//

Yes, that should be the next logical verification round.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, " Chakraborty, PL "

<CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

>

> Dear Learned Seniors,

>

> The following is an attempt to summarize the discussions on

> " Application of Amsha (Division) "

>

> The discussion was attended by many learned persons who appeared

> to be favoring one of two approaches.

> (For brevity's sake, let us call parties by name A & B)

>

> Group A : Favors a strong classical approach. Any dictums used

> need to be supported by Rishi Hora / astrology classics.

> The motto appears to be " Let us understand our classics

> first before projecting anything new. Basics first "

> Group B : Favors classics. However, ready to accept something

> if it logical & works consistently.

>

> Although not explicitly stated, the discussion is based on the Cyclic way

> of division of sign. The other methods like Jaimini or Kalchakra navamsa

> was not discussed, although Jaimini was mentioned at starting phase.

>

> The main points that came up are :

>

> 1) Terminology

>

> The terminolgy was not evenly applied and hence created some confusion

>

> Amsa --- Part of a sign. Like within sign of Aries, there will be 9 nos.

of navamsa

> which are called Aries navamsa.

> Amsaka - After division of sign, where a planet / point will be posited.

> Like 4th navamsa of Taurus will get posited in Aries

> sign in navamsa & hence it is called as in Aries navamsaka.

> Similarly for other signs too.

>

> 2) The main discussion was regarding whether after division of signs

> and getting navamsa position of planets etc., what do we do ?

>

> Group A : amsa positions are to be put in Rasi chart itself.

> The lagna is the focal point. There can not be any other focal point. The

> common usage of amsa chart(D-chart) is not supported by any classics.

>

> Group B stated that in addition to above statement, the amsa positions

> can be independently put in a chart with focal point being the lagnamsa.

> That is creation of what is known as Amsa chart or D-charts. This method

> has been used by many reputed astrolgers effectively and works well.

>

> The high level of discussion created confusion in lay forum members

> regarding follwong points :

>

> a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

> what extent ? Whether a planet deb. in rasi chart but exalted in

> navamsa would behave in an exlated manner ?

>

> The veterans replied that such level of modification is not possible.

>

> b) An unstated question remained in background. (Memebrs assumed

> answers for it, I guess). 'Lagna is very important. Hence lagnamsa

> is also important. But what is the level of importance that the same

> can or can not be used as a focal point ? "

>

> c) Another unstated question was whether relative position of planets

> in navamsa conveys any information ?

> Group A stated that it does not mean anything. Group B stated

> otherwise.

>

> d) Whether there can be dristi/ aspects in navamsa ? Reference of

> Rohini-Ranjan-ji was provided. However same was quashed by group A.

>

> However, Group B stated that dristi can be utilized in D-chart as well.

> A side discussion was also going on about presence of Yoga in D-charts

> mentioned in Mansagiri and 'scattered in various classics'. This was

> not picked by Group A

>

> e) There was also discussion about 'Navamsa Tulya Rasi' and 'rasi tulya

> navamsa'. However ellaboration was not provided and hence its significance

> in the present discussion (whether these techniques are supporting Group

> A or Gr B) was not understood by me.

>

> f) Reference about teachings of Sri B V Raman, Sri K N Rao-ji and other

> reputable astrologers were drawn. However, Group A suggested that

> the methods are not supported by any classics.

>

> g) The famous book by CS Patel-ji was discussed in detail. Group B stated

> that the writing supports the usage of D-charts. Group A again quashed

> that argument by providing a detailed analysis of the same book.

>

> h) Sri Goel-ji provided a write-up about how to use D-charts. That was

> readily downloaded and studied by many members.

>

> i) There was also an illustration about Indira Gandhi-s 7th house in Rasi

> D-9 chart was presented. It showed (as per author) how D-charts can

> show something which may be not seen in Rasi chart. However, arguments

> are still going on

>

> In essence, the following remains the Salient points :(as per my

understanding)

>

> 1) Rasi chart provides some information.

> 2) The navamsa (or any amsa) is put in Rasi chart, it provides some Additional

> information.

> 3) Lagnamsa is an important point. Using it a focal point and creating

D-chart

> provides another level of added information. The question is whether this

> projection (and thereby removing natal lagna as focus) is giving accurate

> additional information all the times ?

>

> Group A stated that Basics should be understood clearly before accepting

> or rejecting anything. Otherwise, there would be no end in taking in many

> other concepts and thereby diluting our own base.

>

> Anyway, I hope after Diwali Celebration is over, someone would provide us

> with a good blind chart and we will see how Classical way of using navamsa

> gives us additional information. And whether D-charts provides us further

> Reliable information or not.

>

> BTW, I don't have any chart to offer. Someone else may kindly do it.

>

> regards

>

> Chakraborty

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

Here is more fertiliser for further discussion on D-Chart,it is in classic or

later development.PVRji have mentioned the name of Parashar with reference as :-

 

//Parasara clarified which amsas (divisions) are used for which purposes. He

clearly said " upaasanaayaaH viGYaanaM saadhyaM viMshati bhaagake " , meaning " the

knowledge of one's worship and spiritual practices is possible in D-20 " .//

 

You can go with full Article by this link and it will very help full for them

who are searching for spiritual aspects in chart.

 

JyotishWritings/message/5

 

I hope it will helpful for further discussion.

 

Thanks & regards,

 

M.S.Bohra

 

, " sreesog " <sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Chakraborty ji,

> That was nice - well done!

> It seems that some of the doubts raised in this message should not be left

unanswered - therefore I will try to attend the same.

> //'Lagna is very important. Hence lagnamsa is also important. But what is the

level of importance that the same can or can not be used as a focal point ? " //

> Actually Lagna is very important and so is Lagnamsa and LagnamsaKA (please

check the terminology). LagnamsaKA is considered as one of the major focal point

as well. Not for NavamsaKA chart (in the way D-chartists considers it); but for

Natal Rasi Chart itself. LagnamsaKA is one of major Arudhas (starting points)

considered and elaborated in texts like Prashnamarga. That is, we are adviced to

consider " NATAL planetary position " starting from LagnamsaKA sign, in the same

way we do with Lagna. This is one of the subtle, but well reputed, classic

supported technique. So the point is the traditionalists do not reject the

importance of LagnamsaKA, but rejects the way in which it is used by D-chartists

(i.e. as a starting point in D-chart to read amsaka positions).

> // A side discussion was also going on about presence of Yoga in D-charts

mentioned in Mansagiri and 'scattered in various classics'. This was not picked

by Group A //

> Yoga in NavamsaKA is well accepted by traditionalists - considering Yoga in

Navamsa is well acceptable and is supported by the classics, since this is very

logical. Let me explain with an example - Think that Sun is in 1st navamsa of

Aries, and Jupiter in 7th navamsa of Libra. The NavamsaKA of both Sun and

Jupiter will be Aries (i.e. The 1st Navamsa of Aries and 7th Navamsa of Libra

falls in Aries). Or in other words, Sun is placed in Aries sign in an area

allocated to Aries sign itself (within Aries sign). Similarly Jupiter is placed

in Libra sign in an area allocated to Aries sign (within Libra sign). Thus both

Sun and Jupiter is placed in a sub division (Navamsa) allocated to Aries itself

- and thus can convey something common through Aries/Mars. i.e. Sun and Jupiter

is connected here THROUGH Aries/Mars. This is a real connection (Yoga in

NavamsaKA) and therefore acceptable. Here also some caution on the use of

correct terminology-

> * Yoga in Navamsa means - both planets are placed in the same sign same

Navamsa. Therefore there is no question of doubting whether it is a Yoga or not.

It IS a Yoga.

> * Yoga in NavamsaKA means - both the planets are placed in different signs,

but in an sub-division (Navamsa) allocated to the same sign (same NavamsaKA).

The above explanation clarifies that this too is considered as a Yoga (i.e. Yoga

in NavamsaKA) as per traditionalists and astro classics.

> //> a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

> > what extent ? Whether a planet deb. in rasi chart but exalted in

> > navamsa would behave in an exlated manner ?

> > The veterans replied that such level of modification is not possible.//

> They are absolutely right.

> //> a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

> > what extent ? //

> This can be discussed in detail, by considering all the Navamaka

possibilities of a Single planet in one sign, and referring to the classical

dictums available related to the same; and then cross checking the same with

live examples.

> //> Anyway, I hope ........., someone would provide us

> > with a good blind chart and we will see how Classical way of using navamsa

gives us additional information. And whether D-charts provides us further

Reliable information or not.//

> Yes, that should be the next logical verification round.

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " Chakraborty, PL "

<CHAKRABORTYP2@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Learned Seniors,

> >

> > The following is an attempt to summarize the discussions on

> > " Application of Amsha (Division) "

> >

> > The discussion was attended by many learned persons who appeared

> > to be favoring one of two approaches.

> > (For brevity's sake, let us call parties by name A & B)

> >

> > Group A : Favors a strong classical approach. Any dictums used

> > need to be supported by Rishi Hora / astrology classics.

> > The motto appears to be " Let us understand our classics

> > first before projecting anything new. Basics first "

> > Group B : Favors classics. However, ready to accept something

> > if it logical & works consistently.

> >

> > Although not explicitly stated, the discussion is based on the Cyclic way

> > of division of sign. The other methods like Jaimini or Kalchakra navamsa

> > was not discussed, although Jaimini was mentioned at starting phase.

> >

> > The main points that came up are :

> >

> > 1) Terminology

> >

> > The terminolgy was not evenly applied and hence created some confusion

> >

> > Amsa --- Part of a sign. Like within sign of Aries, there will be 9

nos. of navamsa

> > which are called Aries navamsa.

> > Amsaka - After division of sign, where a planet / point will be posited.

> > Like 4th navamsa of Taurus will get posited in Aries

> > sign in navamsa & hence it is called as in Aries

navamsaka.

> > Similarly for other signs too.

> >

> > 2) The main discussion was regarding whether after division of signs

> > and getting navamsa position of planets etc., what do we do ?

> >

> > Group A : amsa positions are to be put in Rasi chart itself.

> > The lagna is the focal point. There can not be any other focal point. The

> > common usage of amsa chart(D-chart) is not supported by any classics.

> >

> > Group B stated that in addition to above statement, the amsa positions

> > can be independently put in a chart with focal point being the lagnamsa.

> > That is creation of what is known as Amsa chart or D-charts. This method

> > has been used by many reputed astrolgers effectively and works well.

> >

> > The high level of discussion created confusion in lay forum members

> > regarding follwong points :

> >

> > a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

> > what extent ? Whether a planet deb. in rasi chart but exalted in

> > navamsa would behave in an exlated manner ?

> >

> > The veterans replied that such level of modification is not possible.

> >

> > b) An unstated question remained in background. (Memebrs assumed

> > answers for it, I guess). 'Lagna is very important. Hence lagnamsa

> > is also important. But what is the level of importance that the same

> > can or can not be used as a focal point ? "

> >

> > c) Another unstated question was whether relative position of planets

> > in navamsa conveys any information ?

> > Group A stated that it does not mean anything. Group B stated

> > otherwise.

> >

> > d) Whether there can be dristi/ aspects in navamsa ? Reference of

> > Rohini-Ranjan-ji was provided. However same was quashed by group A.

> >

> > However, Group B stated that dristi can be utilized in D-chart as well.

> > A side discussion was also going on about presence of Yoga in D-charts

> > mentioned in Mansagiri and 'scattered in various classics'. This was

> > not picked by Group A

> >

> > e) There was also discussion about 'Navamsa Tulya Rasi' and 'rasi tulya

> > navamsa'. However ellaboration was not provided and hence its

significance

> > in the present discussion (whether these techniques are supporting Group

> > A or Gr B) was not understood by me.

> >

> > f) Reference about teachings of Sri B V Raman, Sri K N Rao-ji and other

> > reputable astrologers were drawn. However, Group A suggested that

> > the methods are not supported by any classics.

> >

> > g) The famous book by CS Patel-ji was discussed in detail. Group B stated

> > that the writing supports the usage of D-charts. Group A again quashed

> > that argument by providing a detailed analysis of the same book.

> >

> > h) Sri Goel-ji provided a write-up about how to use D-charts. That was

> > readily downloaded and studied by many members.

> >

> > i) There was also an illustration about Indira Gandhi-s 7th house in Rasi

> > D-9 chart was presented. It showed (as per author) how D-charts can

> > show something which may be not seen in Rasi chart. However, arguments

> > are still going on

> >

> > In essence, the following remains the Salient points :(as per my

understanding)

> >

> > 1) Rasi chart provides some information.

> > 2) The navamsa (or any amsa) is put in Rasi chart, it provides some

Additional

> > information.

> > 3) Lagnamsa is an important point. Using it a focal point and creating

D-chart

> > provides another level of added information. The question is whether

this

> > projection (and thereby removing natal lagna as focus) is giving

accurate

> > additional information all the times ?

> >

> > Group A stated that Basics should be understood clearly before accepting

> > or rejecting anything. Otherwise, there would be no end in taking in many

> > other concepts and thereby diluting our own base.

> >

> > Anyway, I hope after Diwali Celebration is over, someone would provide us

> > with a good blind chart and we will see how Classical way of using navamsa

> > gives us additional information. And whether D-charts provides us further

> > Reliable information or not.

> >

> > BTW, I don't have any chart to offer. Someone else may kindly do it.

> >

> > regards

> >

> > Chakraborty

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty, ji,

Nice compilation summery--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Chakraborty, PL <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

Chakraborty, PL <CHAKRABORTYP2RE: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)"' '" Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 4:20 PM

 

 

Dear Learned Seniors,

 

The following is an attempt to summarize the discussions on

"Application of Amsha (Division)"

 

The discussion was attended by many learned persons who appeared

to be favoring one of two approaches.

 

(For brevity's sake, let us call parties by name A & B)

 

Group A : Favors a strong classical approach. Any dictums used

need to be supported by Rishi Hora / astrology classics.

The motto appears to be "Let us understand our classics

first before projecting anything new. Basics first"

Group B : Favors classics. However, ready to accept something

if it logical & works consistently.

 

Although not explicitly stated, the discussion is based on the Cyclic way

of division of sign. The other methods like Jaimini or Kalchakra navamsa

was not discussed, although Jaimini was mentioned at starting phase.

 

The main points that came up are :

 

1) Terminology

 

The terminolgy was not evenly applied and hence created some confusion

Amsa --- Part of a sign. Like within sign of Aries, there will be 9 nos. of navamsa

which are called Aries navamsa.

Amsaka - After division of sign, where a planet / point will be posited.

Like 4th navamsa of Taurus will get posited in Aries

sign in navamsa & hence it is called as in Aries navamsaka.

Similarly for other signs too.

 

2) The main discussion was regarding whether after division of signs

and getting navamsa position of planets etc., what do we do ?

 

Group A : amsa positions are to be put in Rasi chart itself.

The lagna is the focal point. There can not be any other focal point. The

common usage of amsa chart(D-chart) is not supported by any classics.

 

Group B stated that in addition to above statement, the amsa positions

can be independently put in a chart with focal point being the lagnamsa.

That is creation of what is known as Amsa chart or D-charts. This method

has been used by many reputed astrolgers effectively and works well.

 

The high level of discussion created confusion in lay forum members

regarding follwong points :

 

a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

what extent ? Whether a planet deb. in rasi chart but exalted in

navamsa would behave in an exlated manner ?

The veterans replied that such level of modification is not possible.

 

b) An unstated question remained in background. (Memebrs assumed

answers for it, I guess). 'Lagna is very important. Hence lagnamsa

is also important. But what is the level of importance that the same

can or can not be used as a focal point ?"

 

c) Another unstated question was whether relative position of planets

in navamsa conveys any information ?

Group A stated that it does not mean anything. Group B stated

otherwise.

 

d) Whether there can be dristi/ aspects in navamsa ? Reference of

Rohini-Ranjan-ji was provided. However same was quashed by group A.

 

However, Group B stated that dristi can be utilized in D-chart as well.

A side discussion was also going on about presence of Yoga in D-charts

mentioned in Mansagiri and 'scattered in various classics'. This was

not picked by Group A

 

e) There was also discussion about 'Navamsa Tulya Rasi' and 'rasi tulya

navamsa'. However ellaboration was not provided and hence its significance

in the present discussion (whether these techniques are supporting Group

A or Gr B) was not understood by me.

 

f) Reference about teachings of Sri B V Raman, Sri K N Rao-ji and other

reputable astrologers were drawn. However, Group A suggested that

the methods are not supported by any classics.

 

g) The famous book by CS Patel-ji was discussed in detail. Group B stated

that the writing supports the usage of D-charts. Group A again quashed

that argument by providing a detailed analysis of the same book.

 

h) Sri Goel-ji provided a write-up about how to use D-charts. That was

readily downloaded and studied by many members.

 

i) There was also an illustration about Indira Gandhi-s 7th house in Rasi

D-9 chart was presented. It showed (as per author) how D-charts can

show something which may be not seen in Rasi chart. However, arguments

are still going on

 

In essence, the following remains the Salient points :(as per my understanding)

 

1) Rasi chart provides some information.

2) The navamsa (or any amsa) is put in Rasi chart, it provides some Additional

information.

3) Lagnamsa is an important point. Using it a focal point and creating D-chart

provides another level of added information. The question is whether this

projection (and thereby removing natal lagna as focus) is giving accurate

additional information all the times ?

 

Group A stated that Basics should be understood clearly before accepting

or rejecting anything. Otherwise, there would be no end in taking in many

other concepts and thereby diluting our own base.

 

Anyway, I hope after Diwali Celebration is over, someone would provide us

with a good blind chart and we will see how Classical way of using navamsa

gives us additional information. And whether D-charts provides us further

Reliable information or not.

 

BTW, I don't have any chart to offer. Someone else may kindly do it.

 

regards

 

Chakraborty

 

 

 

 

sreesog [sreesog] Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

Dear Neelam ji, //Astrologers from different regions have devised their own microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics have said.Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for the growth of any subject.//The why don't you use extra saturnian planets, tropical astrology, progression, western aspects, lay lines, relocational astrology, comets, satellites and meteriorites, the distant stars like sirius and son on?!! That will make things look more modern and advanced! Simply that answer to this is that - all those are NOT our subject! We are into ANCIENT Indian astrology and so let us be sincere to it. What we discuss here should be "shastrokt" and everything else we can use as a personal tool - in personal readings or other groups. Just remember our conflict with Robert Koch ji and Prafulla ji - they were bringing in

extra saturnian planets and comets - and the group interactions were getting strained and group losing interest. We are here to learn astrology "as told in classics"; and once we are successful in it, we can think of "moderninnovativenew born" microscopes and spread sheets. It doesn't make sense to jump before we stand! At least we should know "What classics have said", "to make new devices to elaborate upon it". If we haven't covered the first step, what is the meaning in going to the second? If not based on the first, what is the use of the second? Especially in a group dedicated to attend the first question? Let us try to understand "What the classics said?" in a better way. That itself is the purpose of this group I believe - and beyond that is not and should not be a domain we should concentrate upon here.//> *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a

wonderful engineering job earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved so far. If anything at all!:-)*//Yes we can. I request Chakraborty ji to do the same. I won't be pumping mails to you on this subject anymore, even though I may continue interaction on this subject with Shanmukha ji and Utkal ji if they are interested. Because I think, I have something extra to learn/gain from Shanmukha ji and his perspective at least on this matter. (So continuing the interaction with them on this, is for my own benefit - I hope you won't object to that). :)Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, neelam gupta <neelamgupta07@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> >

1) KNR (Neelam ji's astro guru) supports it> 2) May be her own experience/experime nts supports it> > After these two points and my YES to both, all arguments stop for me as of> now because I have not yet grown beyond what I have learnt from my esteemed> Guruji. Still diving and finding the pearls in the same ocean.:-) And I also> have firm belief that what I have been told and what I have accepted is not> deviating from classical texts. Again supported my own experience so far.> > About the rest there is NO confusion in my mind. We are just trying to> understand that classics have not advocated any hard and fast rules on tools> used to apply these dictums. They perhaps thought that readers would be> intelligent enough to devise their own means and methods. That is why you> are also only beating about the same bush and saying the same things in a> different

manner. Astrologers from different regions have devised their own> microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics> have said. Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and> contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for> the growth of any subject. Any which way one looks at the navamsha chart,> one is still using it successfully.> > When LPG came in, old people made a huge fuss about the method not being> pure enough and only food cooked on coals must be devoured because that's> what our shastras have recommended. Same happened when microwaves came. In a> similar vein, many Jains would only drink water from the wells and use cloth> filters to purify it, despite having microfilters of RO plants available> with us, just because some verses in shastras say that water from the well> should be

consumed. There are thousands of examples when those who did not> want to move ahead blamed shastras for everything.> > Ancient classics have not stopped us from making advancements for techniques> to be used. You may call these varga charts Frankensteins, but these are and> will be remain pure and pristine glory and have emerged as tools to> understand ad apply classic dictums..> > *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request> someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job> earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved> so far. If anything at all!:-)*> > Regards> Neelam>This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended

for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bohra ji,

The term " viMshati bhaagake " (20th Amsa/Divison) points to the use of 20th Amsa

or Division only. I wonder how one gets or derives the meaning 10th " Divisional

Chart " I wonder! :=) Further please note that NO TERM meaning " Divisional Chart "

is available in ancient classics (whether it be BPHS or something else). The

only term available to us is " Divisions " whether the sanskrit word used be

" Amsa " (Division) or Bhaga (Division).

How will you justify the following act -

* Parasara asks someone to look at the Vimshati Bhaga (20th Division) of a

sign (for a single planet).

* Someone (e.g. PVR) comes forward and draws a chart (20th Divisional Chart!)

and all signs (and marks ALL the planets in it)!

 

* Parasara said Division and he heard Divisional Chart! I wonder how people

still argue in favor of such evident mistakes!

* Amsa always refers to a single sign and a possible placement of a single

planet within it; and people started considering all signs and all planets! I

wonder how everyone is still trying to justify such evident mistakes!

 

Is he doing what Parasara asks him to do? Is he following Parasara correctly

or wrongly? Is he a follower of Parasara system or Distoryer? Is he a student of

Parasara or enemy?

 

Anyway I am tiered of this and is out of this discussion. We don't need a lens

to see the mountain!

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, " Sudan " <msbohra62 wrote:

>

> Dear Friends,

>

> Here is more fertiliser for further discussion on D-Chart,it is in classic or

later development.PVRji have mentioned the name of Parashar with reference as :-

>

> //Parasara clarified which amsas (divisions) are used for which purposes. He

> clearly said " upaasanaayaaH viGYaanaM saadhyaM viMshati bhaagake " , meaning

" the

> knowledge of one's worship and spiritual practices is possible in D-20 " .//

>

> You can go with full Article by this link and it will very help full for them

who are searching for spiritual aspects in chart.

>

> JyotishWritings/message/5

>

> I hope it will helpful for further discussion.

>

> Thanks & regards,

>

> M.S.Bohra

[Guest guest]

Respected members of Group ::-Listing following shlokas from phaldeepika by mantreshwer which also confirms use of amsaSloka 3 : Even a single planet, though in depression, is capable of making the person born a king's equal, provided he be with brilliant rays, retrograde in motion and occupy an auspicious house (i.e., other than the 6th, 8th or 12th). Should there be two or three such planets at a birth the native will be come a King. If there are many such posited in' auspicious Rasis or Amsas, they will usher a king endowed with all

the insignias of royalty such as a crown, umbrella and waving chowries.loka 5 : When the Vargottama Navamsa in the Lagna is just rising, or the Moon is occupying a Vargottama Navamsa, and when the Lagna is aspected by four planets other than the Moon, native though born of a low family will become a King.Sloka 6 : When the lord of the Lagna occupies a Kendra or the 9th house attaining a Vargottama Navamsa, and the .lord of the 9th house is in his exaltation or Swakshetra attaining a

similar Amsa, the Yoga will usher into the world a King who will sit at ease in an exceedingly beautiful golden vehicle placed on the back of an elephant, with chowries adorning the two sides.Sloka 19 : If the Moon occupy a water-resorting Rasi or Amsa identical with the Lagna or be in his own or in a benefic Varga, the person born will become a King who will do good to his subjects, own many elephants. If there are no malefics in Kendras, and. the Moon in the above Yoga occupy a house other than a Kendra, the native will turn out to be a King owning many elephants; but he will not be benevolentSloka 23 : The Moon in the Amsa of a very friendly planet and well aspected by Venus will usher into the world a King endowed with much wealth. If the Moon in the above position be aspected by Jupiter, the person born will become a

King who will rule the entire earth.

there are many more sholokas in other texts also.Thanks & Regards,Vijay Purohit

Now, send attachments up to 25MB with India Mail. Learn how.

[Guest guest]

Sreenadhji,I also feel we should see every where written is in amsa ..means specific amsa of planet..not just complete chart .yes we can explore a amsa chart on various parameters like we use lagna for tanu ,dhan,parakrma ..etc for a specifica purpose.Thanks & RegardsVijay Purohit--- On Wed, 14/10/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:sreesog <sreesog Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions) Date: Wednesday, 14 October, 2009, 1:20 PM

 

 

Dear Bohra ji,

The term "viMshati bhaagake" (20th Amsa/Divison) points to the use of 20th Amsa or Division only. I wonder how one gets or derives the meaning 10th "Divisional Chart" I wonder! :=) Further please note that NO TERM meaning "Divisional Chart" is available in ancient classics (whether it be BPHS or something else). The only term available to us is "Divisions" whether the sanskrit word used be "Amsa" (Division) or Bhaga (Division).

How will you justify the following act -

* Parasara asks someone to look at the Vimshati Bhaga (20th Division) of a sign (for a single planet).

* Someone (e.g. PVR) comes forward and draws a chart (20th Divisional Chart!) and all signs (and marks ALL the planets in it)!

 

* Parasara said Division and he heard Divisional Chart! I wonder how people still argue in favor of such evident mistakes!

* Amsa always refers to a single sign and a possible placement of a single planet within it; and people started considering all signs and all planets! I wonder how everyone is still trying to justify such evident mistakes!

 

Is he doing what Parasara asks him to do? Is he following Parasara correctly or wrongly? Is he a follower of Parasara system or Distoryer? Is he a student of Parasara or enemy?

 

Anyway I am tiered of this and is out of this discussion. We don't need a lens to see the mountain!

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sudan" <msbohra62@. ..> wrote:

>

> Dear Friends,

>

> Here is more fertiliser for further discussion on D-Chart,it is in classic or later development. PVRji have mentioned the name of Parashar with reference as :-

>

> //Parasara clarified which amsas (divisions) are used for which purposes. He

> clearly said "upaasanaayaaH viGYaanaM saadhyaM viMshati bhaagake", meaning "the

> knowledge of one's worship and spiritual practices is possible in D-20".//

>

> You can go with full Article by this link and it will very help full for them who are searching for spiritual aspects in chart.

>

> http://groups. / group/JyotishWri tings/message/ 5

>

> I hope it will helpful for further discussion.

>

> Thanks & regards,

>

> M.S.Bohra

 

 

 

From cricket scores to your friends. Try the India Homepage!

[Guest guest]

Thanks Cakraborty Ji, nice compilation indeed, w'd help members understand nuts

and bolts of discussion.

 

 

 

regards,

Utkal.

 

, " Chakraborty, PL "

<CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

>

> Dear Learned Seniors,

>

> The following is an attempt to summarize the discussions on

> " Application of Amsha (Division) "

>

> The discussion was attended by many learned persons who appeared

> to be favoring one of two approaches.

> (For brevity's sake, let us call parties by name A & B)

>

> Group A : Favors a strong classical approach. Any dictums used

> need to be supported by Rishi Hora / astrology classics.

> The motto appears to be " Let us understand our classics

> first before projecting anything new. Basics first "

> Group B : Favors classics. However, ready to accept something

> if it logical & works consistently.

>

> Although not explicitly stated, the discussion is based on the Cyclic way

> of division of sign. The other methods like Jaimini or Kalchakra navamsa

> was not discussed, although Jaimini was mentioned at starting phase.

>

> The main points that came up are :

>

> 1) Terminology

>

> The terminolgy was not evenly applied and hence created some confusion

>

> Amsa --- Part of a sign. Like within sign of Aries, there will be 9 nos.

of navamsa

> which are called Aries navamsa.

> Amsaka - After division of sign, where a planet / point will be posited.

> Like 4th navamsa of Taurus will get posited in Aries

> sign in navamsa & hence it is called as in Aries navamsaka.

> Similarly for other signs too.

>

> 2) The main discussion was regarding whether after division of signs

> and getting navamsa position of planets etc., what do we do ?

>

> Group A : amsa positions are to be put in Rasi chart itself.

> The lagna is the focal point. There can not be any other focal point. The

> common usage of amsa chart(D-chart) is not supported by any classics.

>

> Group B stated that in addition to above statement, the amsa positions

> can be independently put in a chart with focal point being the lagnamsa.

> That is creation of what is known as Amsa chart or D-charts. This method

> has been used by many reputed astrolgers effectively and works well.

>

> The high level of discussion created confusion in lay forum members

> regarding follwong points :

>

> a) The Rasi chart indications gets modified by amsa chart. But to

> what extent ? Whether a planet deb. in rasi chart but exalted in

> navamsa would behave in an exlated manner ?

>

> The veterans replied that such level of modification is not possible.

>

> b) An unstated question remained in background. (Memebrs assumed

> answers for it, I guess). 'Lagna is very important. Hence lagnamsa

> is also important. But what is the level of importance that the same

> can or can not be used as a focal point ? "

>

> c) Another unstated question was whether relative position of planets

> in navamsa conveys any information ?

> Group A stated that it does not mean anything. Group B stated

> otherwise.

>

> d) Whether there can be dristi/ aspects in navamsa ? Reference of

> Rohini-Ranjan-ji was provided. However same was quashed by group A.

>

> However, Group B stated that dristi can be utilized in D-chart as well.

> A side discussion was also going on about presence of Yoga in D-charts

> mentioned in Mansagiri and 'scattered in various classics'. This was

> not picked by Group A

>

> e) There was also discussion about 'Navamsa Tulya Rasi' and 'rasi tulya

> navamsa'. However ellaboration was not provided and hence its significance

> in the present discussion (whether these techniques are supporting Group

> A or Gr B) was not understood by me.

>

> f) Reference about teachings of Sri B V Raman, Sri K N Rao-ji and other

> reputable astrologers were drawn. However, Group A suggested that

> the methods are not supported by any classics.

>

> g) The famous book by CS Patel-ji was discussed in detail. Group B stated

> that the writing supports the usage of D-charts. Group A again quashed

> that argument by providing a detailed analysis of the same book.

>

> h) Sri Goel-ji provided a write-up about how to use D-charts. That was

> readily downloaded and studied by many members.

>

> i) There was also an illustration about Indira Gandhi-s 7th house in Rasi

> D-9 chart was presented. It showed (as per author) how D-charts can

> show something which may be not seen in Rasi chart. However, arguments

> are still going on

>

> In essence, the following remains the Salient points :(as per my

understanding)

>

> 1) Rasi chart provides some information.

> 2) The navamsa (or any amsa) is put in Rasi chart, it provides some Additional

> information.

> 3) Lagnamsa is an important point. Using it a focal point and creating

D-chart

> provides another level of added information. The question is whether this

> projection (and thereby removing natal lagna as focus) is giving accurate

> additional information all the times ?

>

> Group A stated that Basics should be understood clearly before accepting

> or rejecting anything. Otherwise, there would be no end in taking in many

> other concepts and thereby diluting our own base.

>

> Anyway, I hope after Diwali Celebration is over, someone would provide us

> with a good blind chart and we will see how Classical way of using navamsa

> gives us additional information. And whether D-charts provides us further

> Reliable information or not.

>

> BTW, I don't have any chart to offer. Someone else may kindly do it.

>

> regards

>

> Chakraborty

>

>

> ________________________________

> sreesog [sreesog]

> Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:04 PM

>

> Re: Application of Amsas (Divisions)

>

>

>

> Dear Neelam ji,

> //Astrologers from different regions have devised their own microscopes,

telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics have

said.Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and contempt,

and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for the growth of

any subject.//

> The why don't you use extra saturnian planets, tropical astrology,

progression, western aspects, lay lines, relocational astrology, comets,

satellites and meteriorites, the distant stars like sirius and son on?!! That

will make things look more modern and advanced! Simply that answer to this is

that - all those are NOT our subject! We are into ANCIENT Indian astrology and

so let us be sincere to it. What we discuss here should be " shastrokt " and

everything else we can use as a personal tool - in personal readings or other

groups. Just remember our conflict with Robert Koch ji and Prafulla ji - they

were bringing in extra saturnian planets and comets - and the group interactions

were getting strained and group losing interest. We are here to learn astrology

" as told in classics " ; and once we are successful in it, we can think of

" modern " " innovative " " new born " microscopes and spread sheets. It doesn't

make sense to jump before we stand! At least we should know " What classics have

said " , " to make new devices to elaborate upon it " . If we haven't covered the

first step, what is the meaning in going to the second? If not based on the

first, what is the use of the second? Especially in a group dedicated to attend

the first question? Let us try to understand " What the classics said? " in a

better way. That itself is the purpose of this group I believe - and beyond that

is not and should not be a domain we should concentrate upon here.

> //> *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request

someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job

earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved so

far. If anything at all!:-)*//

> Yes we can. I request Chakraborty ji to do the same. I won't be pumping mails

to you on this subject anymore, even though I may continue interaction on this

subject with Shanmukha ji and Utkal ji if they are interested. Because I think,

I have something extra to learn/gain from Shanmukha ji and his perspective at

least on this matter. (So continuing the interaction with them on this, is for

my own benefit - I hope you won't object to that).

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> --- In

<%40\

groups.com>, neelam gupta <neelamgupta07@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh ji,

> >

> > 1) KNR (Neelam ji's astro guru) supports it

> > 2) May be her own experience/experiments supports it

> >

> > After these two points and my YES to both, all arguments stop for me as of

> > now because I have not yet grown beyond what I have learnt from my esteemed

> > Guruji. Still diving and finding the pearls in the same ocean.:-) And I also

> > have firm belief that what I have been told and what I have accepted is not

> > deviating from classical texts. Again supported my own experience so far.

> >

> > About the rest there is NO confusion in my mind. We are just trying to

> > understand that classics have not advocated any hard and fast rules on tools

> > used to apply these dictums. They perhaps thought that readers would be

> > intelligent enough to devise their own means and methods. That is why you

> > are also only beating about the same bush and saying the same things in a

> > different manner. Astrologers from different regions have devised their own

> > microscopes, telescopes, spreadsheets, and what not to look at what classics

> > have said. Instead of looking at each other's devices with scepticism and

> > contempt, and thinking that they are not `shastrokt' may not be right for

> > the growth of any subject. Any which way one looks at the navamsha chart,

> > one is still using it successfully.

> >

> > When LPG came in, old people made a huge fuss about the method not being

> > pure enough and only food cooked on coals must be devoured because that's

> > what our shastras have recommended. Same happened when microwaves came. In a

> > similar vein, many Jains would only drink water from the wells and use cloth

> > filters to purify it, despite having microfilters of RO plants available

> > with us, just because some verses in shastras say that water from the well

> > should be consumed. There are thousands of examples when those who did not

> > want to move ahead blamed shastras for everything.

> >

> > Ancient classics have not stopped us from making advancements for techniques

> > to be used. You may call these varga charts Frankensteins, but these are and

> > will be remain pure and pristine glory and have emerged as tools to

> > understand ad apply classic dictums..

> >

> > *Now, with your kind permission, shall we take a break? Let us request

> > someone, may be Chakraborthy ji (he had done a wonderful engineering job

> > earlier) to be the rapporteur and present an essence of what we've achieved

> > so far. If anything at all!:-)*

> >

> > Regards

> > Neelam

> >

>

>

>

> This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The

information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this

message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain

proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended

recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please

notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any

attachments.

>