Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 In a message dated 4/20/2006 10:01:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wwoehr writes: > > > This question only gets answered when you get that blow on your nose. > > In different words, with this blow your nose will reveal some qualities > not known before the blow. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 > wrote: > > > >Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > >>Getting a blow on your nose will dispell some ignorance of you nose > >>and will also tell some truth about it > >> > >>Werner > > > > > >In which way will it dispell ignorance? > > > >Len L.E: Don't bother answering him. It's just his game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/19/2006 8:47:19 PM Pacific Daylight > Time, > > > > > lastrain@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am.......is the dreamer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L.E; There is no I am and no dream. Only Life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 In a message dated 4/20/2006 4:38:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:45:21 -0000 " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 Re: The True Guru Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > > Question; Did you say that Life Itself was your guru? > > > > > > L.E: Yes. Life Itself said that I was already the Absolute > Reality > > and there > > > was nothing more to be done, and I trusted that knowlege and > > discovered it to > > > be true. > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is still a 'you' that believes that it is the 'Absolute > > Reality'..........it remains caught in the dream. > > > > It's a nicer dream.......but still a dream. > > > > > > toombaru > > > good point.... > > in the " absolute reality " is neither seer, seen nor seeing > > this absolute reality reflect all kind of names and forms....like a > mirror reflect names and forms.... > > this names and forms Arn't the absolute reality...... > > the one " who " take this names and forms for " real " ....is having a > dream..... > > this dream is running as long as there is identification with the > appearing names and forms......reflected in the mirror of " absolute > reality " .... > > Marc > > Ps: only in this described " dream " ....there is talk and definition > and concept and......about " dreams " and also talk...as i see the recent discussions about " ego " ......there is in this " dream " ....this kind of talk about " ego " .... " ego's " exists in fiction only.....included in more or less nice " dreams " ..... Self is the constant inner...and " silent " voice of liberation.....that let dissolve fictions again....and again until all tendencies and wishes related to this fiction....dissolve What makes the difference between hearing this " silent voice of liberation " and not hearing it, is the condition of this " fiction " of ego. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 This question only gets answered when you get that blow on your nose. In different words, with this blow your nose will reveal some qualities not known before the blow. Werner Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > Getting a blow on your nose will dispell some ignorance of you nose > > and will also tell some truth about it > > > > Werner > > > In which way will it dispell ignorance? > > Len > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > This question only gets answered when you get that blow on your nose. > > In different words, with this blow your nose will reveal some qualities > not known before the blow. > > Werner Stunning. Is this the ultimate secret of your wisdom? Len Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 No, Len, it was just a gem Werner Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> wrote: > > > > This question only gets answered when you get that blow on your nose. > > > > In different words, with this blow your nose will reveal some > qualities > > not known before the blow. > > > > Werner > > > > Stunning. Is this the ultimate secret of your wisdom? > > Len > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 Nisargadatta , epston wrote: > > In a message dated 4/19/2006 9:46:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > illusyn writes: > > > L.E; There is no I am and no dream. Only Life. > > >> > > >> > > >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 In a message dated 4/20/2006 7:16:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:57:55 -0000 " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 Re: The True Guru Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Marc, > > I have no idea what a true guru is and how to find one. I just posted > that statement of K. But definitely there are lots of gurus and > teachers arround who will tell they are the true one's or who at > least believe they are. > > But there is, if you think about, a difference between dispelling > one's ignorance and sharing truth (besides, I don't know what truth > is). > > Getting a blow on your nose will dispell some ignorance of you nose > and will also tell some truth about it > > Werner > > Hi Werner, oh....this " getting a blow on the nose... " ....there is much of this happening in here recently...... but i don't think that this brought someone out of ignorance..... it seem even that the one's who stay still in the " fight " ....get more convinced about their ignorance (ego)... Marc Possibly, but I wouldn't underestimate the potential of hearing the truth, even if it isn't acted on immediately. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 20, 2006 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > > > Searching within post-its for answers to questions about > > post-its.......although entertaining...is not likely to yield > > satifying results. > > > > toombaru > > > > But my question was a natural one. > Larry said there is only Life. > You replied: " all there is... is consciousness " . > > Your comment *seems* to counter what he says, > but it is not clear. Hence I asked. > > I asked not because I wanted to know the " meaning of life " > or such. I just wanted to know *what you meant*. > > > Bill He meant that asking him to clarify what he meant ...... ....... is not likely to yield satisfying results ....... But then ..... that's just my opinion, I could be wrong ;-) -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 In a message dated 4/21/2006 12:24:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:46:42 -0000 " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 Re: The True Guru Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 4:38:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:45:21 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Question; Did you say that Life Itself was your guru? > > > > > > > > L.E: Yes. Life Itself said that I was already the Absolute > > Reality > > > and there > > > > was nothing more to be done, and I trusted that knowlege and > > > discovered it to > > > > be true. > > > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is still a 'you' that believes that it is the 'Absolute > > > Reality'..........it remains caught in the dream. > > > > > > It's a nicer dream.......but still a dream. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > good point.... > > > > in the " absolute reality " is neither seer, seen nor seeing > > > > this absolute reality reflect all kind of names and forms....like a > > mirror reflect names and forms.... > > > > this names and forms Arn't the absolute reality...... > > > > the one " who " take this names and forms for " real " ....is having a > > dream..... > > > > this dream is running as long as there is identification with the > > appearing names and forms......reflected in the mirror of " absolute > > reality " .... > > > > Marc > > > > Ps: only in this described " dream " ....there is talk and definition > > and concept and......about " dreams " > > and also talk...as i see the recent discussions > about " ego " ......there is in this " dream " ....this kind of talk > about " ego " .... > > " ego's " exists in fiction only.....included in more or less > nice " dreams " ..... > > Self is the constant inner...and " silent " voice of > liberation.....that let dissolve fictions again....and again > > until all tendencies and wishes related to this fiction....dissolve > > > > > What makes the difference between hearing this " silent voice of liberation " > and not hearing it, is the condition of this " fiction " of ego. > > fiction can't " hear " any real (inner) voice.... in fact ...it's not only " inner voice " .....it's All there is.... which let appear the ego.....as what it Is.....means, as a fiction only Marc I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't suggest it could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the awareness of Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The dismissal is just another way to hold it in place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 4:38:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:45:21 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Question; Did you say that Life Itself was your guru? > > > > > > > > L.E: Yes. Life Itself said that I was already the Absolute > > Reality > > > and there > > > > was nothing more to be done, and I trusted that knowlege and > > > discovered it to > > > > be true. > > > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is still a 'you' that believes that it is the 'Absolute > > > Reality'..........it remains caught in the dream. > > > > > > It's a nicer dream.......but still a dream. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > good point.... > > > > in the " absolute reality " is neither seer, seen nor seeing > > > > this absolute reality reflect all kind of names and forms....like a > > mirror reflect names and forms.... > > > > this names and forms Arn't the absolute reality...... > > > > the one " who " take this names and forms for " real " ....is having a > > dream..... > > > > this dream is running as long as there is identification with the > > appearing names and forms......reflected in the mirror of " absolute > > reality " .... > > > > Marc > > > > Ps: only in this described " dream " ....there is talk and definition > > and concept and......about " dreams " > > and also talk...as i see the recent discussions > about " ego " ......there is in this " dream " ....this kind of talk > about " ego " .... > > " ego's " exists in fiction only.....included in more or less > nice " dreams " ..... > > Self is the constant inner...and " silent " voice of > liberation.....that let dissolve fictions again....and again > > until all tendencies and wishes related to this fiction....dissolve > > > > > What makes the difference between hearing this " silent voice of liberation " > and not hearing it, is the condition of this " fiction " of ego. > > fiction can't " hear " any real (inner) voice.... in fact ...it's not only " inner voice " .....it's All there is.... which let appear the ego.....as what it Is.....means, as a fiction only Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 7:16:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:57:55 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Marc, > > > > I have no idea what a true guru is and how to find one. I just > posted > > that statement of K. But definitely there are lots of gurus and > > teachers arround who will tell they are the true one's or who at > > least believe they are. > > > > But there is, if you think about, a difference between dispelling > > one's ignorance and sharing truth (besides, I don't know what truth > > is). > > > > Getting a blow on your nose will dispell some ignorance of you nose > > and will also tell some truth about it > > > > Werner > > > > > Hi Werner, > > oh....this " getting a blow on the nose... " ....there is much of this > happening in here recently...... > but i don't think that this brought someone out of ignorance..... > it seem even that the one's who stay still in the " fight " ....get more > convinced about their ignorance (ego)... > > Marc > > > > Possibly, but I wouldn't underestimate the potential of hearing the truth, > even if it isn't acted on immediately. > > yes......the potential of " hearing " the truth....has always some effect...... time will show.... Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 12:24:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:46:42 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 4:38:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:45:21 -0000 > > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> > > Re: The True Guru > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Question; Did you say that Life Itself was your guru? > > > > > > > > > > L.E: Yes. Life Itself said that I was already the Absolute > > > Reality > > > > and there > > > > > was nothing more to be done, and I trusted that knowlege and > > > > discovered it to > > > > > be true. > > > > > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is still a 'you' that believes that it is > the 'Absolute > > > > Reality'..........it remains caught in the dream. > > > > > > > > It's a nicer dream.......but still a dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > good point.... > > > > > > in the " absolute reality " is neither seer, seen nor seeing > > > > > > this absolute reality reflect all kind of names and forms....like > a > > > mirror reflect names and forms.... > > > > > > this names and forms Arn't the absolute reality...... > > > > > > the one " who " take this names and forms for " real " ....is having > a > > > dream..... > > > > > > this dream is running as long as there is identification with > the > > > appearing names and forms......reflected in the mirror > of " absolute > > > reality " .... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > Ps: only in this described " dream " ....there is talk and > definition > > > and concept and......about " dreams " > > > > and also talk...as i see the recent discussions > > about " ego " ......there is in this " dream " ....this kind of talk > > about " ego " .... > > > > " ego's " exists in fiction only.....included in more or less > > nice " dreams " ..... > > > > Self is the constant inner...and " silent " voice of > > liberation.....that let dissolve fictions again....and again > > > > until all tendencies and wishes related to this > fiction....dissolve > > > > > > > > > > What makes the difference between hearing this " silent voice of > liberation " > > and not hearing it, is the condition of this " fiction " of ego. > > > > > fiction can't " hear " any real (inner) voice.... > > in fact ...it's not only " inner voice " .....it's All there is.... > > which let appear the ego.....as what it Is.....means, as a fiction > only > > Marc > > > > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't suggest it > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the awareness of > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The dismissal > is just another way to hold it in place. > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that what i wanted to tell above, yes... i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness awareness happen....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... to get out of illusion.... it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to be......is just perfect...... the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... Marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 7:16:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:57:55 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Marc, > > > > I have no idea what a true guru is and how to find one. I just > posted > > that statement of K. But definitely there are lots of gurus and > > teachers arround who will tell they are the true one's or who at > > least believe they are. > > > > But there is, if you think about, a difference between dispelling > > one's ignorance and sharing truth (besides, I don't know what truth > > is). > > > > Getting a blow on your nose will dispell some ignorance of you nose > > and will also tell some truth about it > > > > Werner > > > > > Hi Werner, > > oh....this " getting a blow on the nose... " ....there is much of this > happening in here recently...... > but i don't think that this brought someone out of ignorance..... > it seem even that the one's who stay still in the " fight " ....get more > convinced about their ignorance (ego)... > > Marc > > > > Possibly, but I wouldn't underestimate the potential of hearing the truth, > even if it isn't acted on immediately. Absolutely. But I wouldn´t say that blowings each other´s noses is identical with speaking the truth ;-) Some people seem to believe that simple violence is truth. While violence is itself an expression of ignorance. Len Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 In a message dated 4/21/2006 8:25:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:03:46 -0000 " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 Re: The True Guru > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't suggest it > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the awareness of > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The dismissal > is just another way to hold it in place. > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that what i wanted to tell above, yes... i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness awareness happen....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... to get out of illusion.... it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to be......is just perfect...... the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... Marc There should not be any effort. Ego IS effort, and so this presents a dilemma for all apparent individuals. The goal is effortlessness, and yet this cannot be accomplished with effort, and is also not accomplished by ignoring the effort that ego already is. Mind is a 'doing' thing. Effortlessness, acceptance, surrender are not things that can be done, but rather the 'undoing' of the already present doing. There is a truth underlying the effort of ego. There is a nonintegrous split mind present, one half diligently affirming it's effortlessness, and the other half diligently reinforcing it's illusory identity in an effort to hold it in place. Perhaps the 'solution' is simply to notice that this is occurring. Ultimately, this noticing is not an effort, but it can be noticed that confronting effort is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 12:24:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:46:42 -0000 > > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> > > Re: The True Guru > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 4:38:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:45:21 -0000 > > > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> > > > Re: The True Guru > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " > <lastrain@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Question; Did you say that Life Itself was your guru? > > > > > > > > > > > > L.E: Yes. Life Itself said that I was already the > Absolute > > > > Reality > > > > > and there > > > > > > was nothing more to be done, and I trusted that knowlege > and > > > > > discovered it to > > > > > > be true. > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is still a 'you' that believes that it is > > the 'Absolute > > > > > Reality'..........it remains caught in the dream. > > > > > > > > > > It's a nicer dream.......but still a dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > good point.... > > > > > > > > in the " absolute reality " is neither seer, seen nor seeing > > > > > > > > this absolute reality reflect all kind of names and > forms....like > > a > > > > mirror reflect names and forms.... > > > > > > > > this names and forms Arn't the absolute reality...... > > > > > > > > the one " who " take this names and forms for " real " ....is > having > > a > > > > dream..... > > > > > > > > this dream is running as long as there is identification with > > the > > > > appearing names and forms......reflected in the mirror > > of " absolute > > > > reality " .... > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > Ps: only in this described " dream " ....there is talk and > > definition > > > > and concept and......about " dreams " > > > > > > and also talk...as i see the recent discussions > > > about " ego " ......there is in this " dream " ....this kind of talk > > > about " ego " .... > > > > > > " ego's " exists in fiction only.....included in more or less > > > nice " dreams " ..... > > > > > > Self is the constant inner...and " silent " voice of > > > liberation.....that let dissolve fictions again....and again > > > > > > until all tendencies and wishes related to this > > fiction....dissolve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes the difference between hearing this " silent voice of > > liberation " > > > and not hearing it, is the condition of this " fiction " of ego. > > > > > > > > fiction can't " hear " any real (inner) voice.... > > > > in fact ...it's not only " inner voice " .....it's All there is.... > > > > which let appear the ego.....as what it Is.....means, as a fiction > > only > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't > suggest it > > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the > awareness of > > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The > dismissal > > is just another way to hold it in place. > > > > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that > what i wanted to tell above, yes... 'Awareness' is only part if the dream. > > i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being > an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness > > awareness happens....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and > mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... Nope. There is nothing outside of the limitation of being...(the dream). Understanding that.....is enlightenment. > > to get out of illusion.... > > it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... > a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that > he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to > be......is just perfect...... > > the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " Nope. Waking up...is annihilation. > > you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... > if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any > effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? Trying not to effort....tightens the knots. > > yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... > this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a > dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... > > Marc > Naturalness happens....... or not....compeletly independent of the efforts of the dreamed object. That is the 'Understanding'. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 In a message dated 4/21/2006 8:25:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:25:32 -0000 " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: The True Guru Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 7:16:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:57:55 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Marc, > > > > I have no idea what a true guru is and how to find one. I just > posted > > that statement of K. But definitely there are lots of gurus and > > teachers arround who will tell they are the true one's or who at > > least believe they are. > > > > But there is, if you think about, a difference between dispelling > > one's ignorance and sharing truth (besides, I don't know what truth > > is). > > > > Getting a blow on your nose will dispell some ignorance of you nose > > and will also tell some truth about it > > > > Werner > > > > > Hi Werner, > > oh....this " getting a blow on the nose... " ....there is much of this > happening in here recently...... > but i don't think that this brought someone out of ignorance..... > it seem even that the one's who stay still in the " fight " ....get more > convinced about their ignorance (ego)... > > Marc > > > > Possibly, but I wouldn't underestimate the potential of hearing the truth, > even if it isn't acted on immediately. Absolutely. But I wouldn´t say that blowings each other´s noses is identical with speaking the truth ;-) Some people seem to believe that simple violence is truth. While violence is itself an expression of ignorance. Len Agreed. It was my hope to move past the 'nose blowing' part of the discussion by using the process of denial to pretend that it never happened. Hehe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 12:24:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:46:42 -0000 > > > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> > > > Re: The True Guru > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/20/2006 4:38:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:45:21 -0000 > > > > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> > > > > Re: The True Guru > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " > > <lastrain@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , epston@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Question; Did you say that Life Itself was your guru? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L.E: Yes. Life Itself said that I was already the > > Absolute > > > > > Reality > > > > > > and there > > > > > > > was nothing more to be done, and I trusted that knowlege > > and > > > > > > discovered it to > > > > > > > be true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry Epston > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is still a 'you' that believes that it is > > > the 'Absolute > > > > > > Reality'..........it remains caught in the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a nicer dream.......but still a dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good point.... > > > > > > > > > > in the " absolute reality " is neither seer, seen nor seeing > > > > > > > > > > this absolute reality reflect all kind of names and > > forms....like > > > a > > > > > mirror reflect names and forms.... > > > > > > > > > > this names and forms Arn't the absolute reality...... > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " take this names and forms for " real " ....is > > having > > > a > > > > > dream..... > > > > > > > > > > this dream is running as long as there is identification with > > > the > > > > > appearing names and forms......reflected in the mirror > > > of " absolute > > > > > reality " .... > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > Ps: only in this described " dream " ....there is talk and > > > definition > > > > > and concept and......about " dreams " > > > > > > > > and also talk...as i see the recent discussions > > > > about " ego " ......there is in this " dream " ....this kind of talk > > > > about " ego " .... > > > > > > > > " ego's " exists in fiction only.....included in more or less > > > > nice " dreams " ..... > > > > > > > > Self is the constant inner...and " silent " voice of > > > > liberation.....that let dissolve fictions again....and again > > > > > > > > until all tendencies and wishes related to this > > > fiction....dissolve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What makes the difference between hearing this " silent voice of > > > liberation " > > > > and not hearing it, is the condition of this " fiction " of ego. > > > > > > > > > > > fiction can't " hear " any real (inner) voice.... > > > > > > in fact ...it's not only " inner voice " .....it's All there is.... > > > > > > which let appear the ego.....as what it Is.....means, as a fiction > > > only > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't > > suggest it > > > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the > > awareness of > > > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The > > dismissal > > > is just another way to hold it in place. > > > > > > > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that > > what i wanted to tell above, yes... > > > > > 'Awareness' is only part if the dream. - " awareness " can't be at same time than the " dream " (if you accept that there is a " dream " ...then you also accept that there is " non-dream) > > > > > > > > > i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being > > an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness > > > > awareness happens....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and > > mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... > > > > Nope. > > There is nothing outside of the limitation of being...(the dream). > > Understanding that.....is enlightenment. yes...you tell It.....there is Nothing(ness) outside to " know " this Nothingness give a light on the " dream " .... " enlightenment " is like the one who jump in the swimming pool...and declare that he/she got wet by this experience... who/whatever open completely the heart.....is real nature..... real nature Is already...since ever.... " enlightened " > > > > > > to get out of illusion.... > > > > it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... > > a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that > > he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to > > be......is just perfect...... > > > > the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " > > > Nope. > > Waking up...is annihilation. ....spoke the one who is dreaming......a " convinced " ignorant > > > > > > > you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... > > if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any > > effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? > > > > > > Trying not to effort....tightens the knots. ....there is no effort or non-effort existing..... when the time is " ready " ...It happen...thats all....yes > > > > > > > yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... > > this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a > > dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... > > > > Marc > > > > > > Naturalness happens....... or not....compeletly independent of the > efforts of the dreamed object. > > > That is the 'Understanding'. what is " naturalness happens " ...? > > > > > toombaru wish a nice weekend Marc > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 > > > > > > 'Awareness' is only part of the dream. > > > - " awareness " can't be at same time than the " dream " > > (if you accept that there is a " dream " ...then you also accept that > there is " non-dream) > > > > > There is the dream....and there is the Pristine Quiescence out of which it mysteriously emerges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being > > > an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness > > > > > > awareness happens....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and > > > mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > There is nothing outside of the limitation of being...(the dream). > > > > Understanding that.....is enlightenment. > > > yes...you tell It.....there is Nothing(ness) outside > > to " know " this Nothingness give a light on the " dream " .... They are the same....One cannot exist without the other. > > " enlightenment " is like the one who jump in the swimming pool...and > declare that he/she got wet by this experience... > > who/whatever open completely the heart.....is real nature..... > > real nature Is already...since ever.... " enlightened " > > > > > > > > > > > > > to get out of illusion.... > > > > > > it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... > > > a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " > that > > > he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to > > > be......is just perfect...... > > > > > > the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " > > > > > > Nope. > > > > Waking up...is annihilation. > > > ...spoke the one who is dreaming......a " convinced " ignorant > > > > > > > > > > > > you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... > > > if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be > any > > > effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? > > > > > > > > > > > > Trying not to effort....tightens the knots. > > ...there is no effort or non-effort existing..... > > when the time is " ready " ...It happen...thats all....yes > > > > Anything that occurs in time.......is illusion. > > > > > > > > yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... > > > this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or > a > > > dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > Naturalness happens....... or not....compeletly independent of the > > efforts of the dreamed object. > > > > > > That is the 'Understanding'. > > what is " naturalness happens " ...? > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > wish a nice weekend > > Marc > > > Why on earth would you do that? toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 8:25:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:03:46 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > > > > > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't > suggest it > > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the > awareness of > > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The > dismissal > > is just another way to hold it in place. > > > > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that > what i wanted to tell above, yes... > > i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being > an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness > > awareness happen....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and > mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... > > to get out of illusion.... > > it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... > a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that > he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to > be......is just perfect...... > > the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " > > you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... > if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any > effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? > > yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... > this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a > dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... > > Marc > > > There should not be any effort. Ego IS effort, and so this presents a > dilemma for all apparent individuals. The goal is effortlessness, and yet this > cannot be accomplished with effort, and is also not accomplished by ignoring the > effort that ego already is. > > Mind is a 'doing' thing. Effortlessness, acceptance, surrender are not > things that can be done, but rather the 'undoing' of the already present doing. > > There is a truth underlying the effort of ego. There is a nonintegrous split > mind present, one half diligently affirming it's effortlessness, and the > other half diligently reinforcing it's illusory identity in an effort to hold it > in place. > > Perhaps the 'solution' is simply to notice that this is occurring. > Ultimately, this noticing is not an effort, but it can be noticed that confronting > effort is. > > > > There is no solution for the characters within a dream. Effortlessness is the rusult of the Understanding not its cause. toombaru > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 In a message dated 4/21/2006 12:09:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:07:15 -0000 " toombaru2006 " <lastrain Re: The True Guru Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 8:25:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:03:46 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > > > > > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't > suggest it > > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the > awareness of > > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The > dismissal > > is just another way to hold it in place. > > > > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that > what i wanted to tell above, yes... > > i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being > an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness > > awareness happen....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and > mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... > > to get out of illusion.... > > it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... > a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that > he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to > be......is just perfect...... > > the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " > > you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... > if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any > effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? > > yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... > this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a > dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... > > Marc > > > There should not be any effort. Ego IS effort, and so this presents a > dilemma for all apparent individuals. The goal is effortlessness, and yet this > cannot be accomplished with effort, and is also not accomplished by ignoring the > effort that ego already is. > > Mind is a 'doing' thing. Effortlessness, acceptance, surrender are not > things that can be done, but rather the 'undoing' of the already present doing. > > There is a truth underlying the effort of ego. There is a nonintegrous split > mind present, one half diligently affirming it's effortlessness, and the > other half diligently reinforcing it's illusory identity in an effort to hold it > in place. > > Perhaps the 'solution' is simply to notice that this is occurring. > Ultimately, this noticing is not an effort, but it can be noticed that confronting > effort is. > > > > There is no solution for the characters within a dream. Effortlessness is the rusult of the Understanding not its cause. toombaru Hmmm, yes, effortlessness results from understanding. But from whence cometh the understanding? It's like needing a gallon of gas to drive to the gas station to get a gallon of gas. I've had the intuitive sense that the illusion is remarkably fragile, and yet in practice, so intractable. Maybe the reason this is so is that understanding is needed in order to allow understanding to occur. What comes out of that nonsense is experience, which is all that's 'supposed' to happen in the first place. However, ignorance isn't a permanent condition since Truth is the only thing that's true, and so understanding occurs from beyond mind/ego, and this understanding leads to more allowing which leads to more understanding until Truth has it's way with us. And yet, if this is true, understanding is critical, and so why do we bludgeon those who seek it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 21, 2006 --- toombaru2006 <lastrain a écrit : Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 8:25:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:03:46 -0000 > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 > Re: The True Guru > > > > > > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't > suggest it > > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the > awareness of > > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The > dismissal > > is just another way to hold it in place. > > > > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that > what i wanted to tell above, yes... > > i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being > an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness > > awareness happen....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and > mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... > > to get out of illusion.... > > it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... > a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that > he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to > be......is just perfect...... > > the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " > > you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... > if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any > effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? > > yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... > this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a > dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... > > Marc > > > There should not be any effort. Ego IS effort, and so this presents a > dilemma for all apparent individuals. The goal is effortlessness, and yet this > cannot be accomplished with effort, and is also not accomplished by ignoring the > effort that ego already is. > > Mind is a 'doing' thing. Effortlessness, acceptance, surrender are not > things that can be done, but rather the 'undoing' of the already present doing. > > There is a truth underlying the effort of ego. There is a nonintegrous split > mind present, one half diligently affirming it's effortlessness, and the > other half diligently reinforcing it's illusory identity in an effort to hold it > in place. > > Perhaps the 'solution' is simply to notice that this is occurring. > Ultimately, this noticing is not an effort, but it can be noticed that confronting > effort is. > > > > There is no solution for the characters within a dream. Effortlessness is the rusult of the Understanding not its cause. toombaru Ego= effort > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 12:09:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:07:15 -0000 > " toombaru2006 " <lastrain > Re: The True Guru > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 4/21/2006 8:25:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:03:46 -0000 > > " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33@> > > Re: The True Guru > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the fiction can't 'hear' an inner voice. I didn't > > suggest it > > > could. What I did suggest is that the illusion of ego obscures the > > awareness of > > > Reality, and so perhaps this illusion shouldn't be dismissed. The > > dismissal > > > is just another way to hold it in place. > > > > > > > > yes....... " the illusion of An ego obscures the awareness " .....that > > what i wanted to tell above, yes... > > > > i mean that, as long there is illusion of an ego....of being > > an " individual and seperated " entity....there can't be awareness > > > > awareness happen....when this ego-mind..... " open " the heart and > > mind.......to get out of this limitations of being..... > > > > to get out of illusion.... > > > > it's a dangerous discussion....because it's not that easy.... > > a great ego-mind could catch this words in here.....and " think " that > > he/she has no ego.....or that the great ego he/she is dreaming to > > be......is just perfect...... > > > > the only possible way to get out of illusion....is to " wake up " > > > > you talk about this " dismissed of... " .... > > if i understand your words......you mean that there shoudn't be any > > effort to leave an " non-existing " ego.....kind of...? > > > > yes.....it's possible.....if there is no effort until death...... > > this " attitude " would be the same as the attitude of a cat....or a > > dog....or whatever being.....having enough " food " ....to dream.... > > > > Marc > > > > > > There should not be any effort. Ego IS effort, and so this presents a > > dilemma for all apparent individuals. The goal is effortlessness, > and yet this > > cannot be accomplished with effort, and is also not accomplished by > ignoring the > > effort that ego already is. > > > > Mind is a 'doing' thing. Effortlessness, acceptance, surrender are not > > things that can be done, but rather the 'undoing' of the already > present doing. > > > > There is a truth underlying the effort of ego. There is a > nonintegrous split > > mind present, one half diligently affirming it's effortlessness, and > the > > other half diligently reinforcing it's illusory identity in an > effort to hold it > > in place. > > > > Perhaps the 'solution' is simply to notice that this is occurring. > > Ultimately, this noticing is not an effort, but it can be noticed > that confronting > > effort is. > > > > > > > > > > There is no solution for the characters within a dream. > > Effortlessness is the rusult of the Understanding not its cause. > toombaru > > > > > Hmmm, yes, effortlessness results from understanding. But from whence cometh > the understanding? It's like needing a gallon of gas to drive to the gas > station to get a gallon of gas. I've had the intuitive sense that the illusion > is remarkably fragile, and yet in practice, so intractable. Maybe the reason > this is so is that understanding is needed in order to allow understanding to > occur. What comes out of that nonsense is experience, which is all that's > 'supposed' to happen in the first place. > > However, ignorance isn't a permanent condition since Truth is the only thing > that's true, and so understanding occurs from beyond mind/ego, and this > understanding leads to more allowing which leads to more understanding until > Truth has it's way with us. > > And yet, if this is true, understanding is critical, and so why do we > bludgeon those who seek it? > > Because in seeking it........they loose it. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 22, 2006 In a message dated 4/22/2006 1:50:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Nisargadatta writes: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 01:31:34 -0000 " toombaru2006 " <lastrain Re: The True Guru > Hmmm, yes, effortlessness results from understanding. But from whence cometh > the understanding? It's like needing a gallon of gas to drive to the gas > station to get a gallon of gas. I've had the intuitive sense that the illusion > is remarkably fragile, and yet in practice, so intractable. Maybe the reason > this is so is that understanding is needed in order to allow understanding to > occur. What comes out of that nonsense is experience, which is all that's > 'supposed' to happen in the first place. > > However, ignorance isn't a permanent condition since Truth is the only thing > that's true, and so understanding occurs from beyond mind/ego, and this > understanding leads to more allowing which leads to more understanding until > Truth has it's way with us. > > And yet, if this is true, understanding is critical, and so why do we > bludgeon those who seek it? > > Because in seeking it........they loose it. toombaru Who loses it? If understanding can be lost, it must have been 'present' to begin with. Understanding is not present and therefore can't be lost by seeking it. Bludgeoning seekers is the effort expended to try to bypass the seeming process of understanding (experience). This is done under the pretense of removing effort. Only ego could invent such foolishness. In the end, God is going to win. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 23, 2006 In a message dated 4/22/2006 8:04:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lastrain writes: In the end, God is going to win. > > > Whose God? > > Toombaru > > L.E As god wins, we all win for all are included in life. > There is no other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
