Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org
raghu

Gaudiya Vaishnava Conception of Shiva

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva.

 

The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda. When there is no qualified jiva to fill those roles then Vishnu fills those roles.

 

 

Jiva goswami explains the difference between the demigod Shiva and Sadashiva in his Paramatma Sandarbha -- Anuccheda 17

 

 

Text 45

 

tad etad uktanusarena sada-civecvara-tri-devi-rupa-vyuho ‘pi nirastah. tasmad eva ca sri-bhagavat-purusayor eva caivagame sadaSivadi-samjYe tan-mahima-khyapanaya dhrte iti gamyate. sarva-sastra-ciromanau sri-bhagavate tu tri-devyam eva tat-taratamya-jijYasa. purusa-bhagavatos tu tat- prasagga eva nasti.

 

tat - this; etat - that; ukta - said; anusarena - following; sada- civecvara - of Lord SadaSiva; tri-devi-rupa-vyuhah - the forms of the three goddesses; api - also; nirastah - rejected; tasmat - therefgore; eva - indeed; ca - also; sri-bhagavat-purusayoh - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the purusa-avatara; eva - indeed; caivagame - in the Siava ssriptures; sadaSiva - with Lord SadaSiva; adi - beginning; samjYe - names; tan-mahima- khyapanaya - for dessribing His glories; dhrte - held; iti - thus; gamyate - is attained; sarva-sastra-ciromanau - in the crest jewel of all ssriptures; sri-bhagavate - in Srimad-Bhagavatam; tu - but; tri-devyam - in the three goddesses; eva - indeed; tat-taratamya - of the gradations of higher and lower; jijYasa - the desire to understand; purusa-bhagavatoh - of the purusa-avatara and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tu - but; tat-prasagga - in association with Him; eva - indeed; na - not; asti - is.

 

In may also be noted in the context of these words that Lord SadaSiva is not the same as the demigod Siva of the three guna- avataras. In the Siva scriptures it is clearly said that Lord SadaSiva is an expansion of the purusa-avatara and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (in Canto Ten. Chapter Eighty-nine), the crest jewel of all scriptures, the question “Who is the most exalted of the three guna- avataras?” is raised. In the answer given there it is clear that the demigod Siva is not an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the purusa-avatara.

 

Text 46

 

brahmadayo yat krta-setu-pala

yat karanam vicvam idam ca maya ajna-kari yasya picaca-carya

aho vibhumnac caritam vidambanam

 

brahmadayah - demigods like Brahma; yat - whose; krta - activities; setu - religious rites; palah - observers; yat - one who is; karanam - the origin of; vicvam - the universe; idam - this; ca - also; maya - material energy; ajYa-kari - order carrier; yasya - whose; picaca - devilish; carya - activity; ahah - O my Lord; vibhumnah - of the great; caritam - character; vidambanam - simply imitation.

 

The demigod Lord Siva is dessribed in the following words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.14.29):

 

“Demigods like Brahma also follow the religious rites observed by him (Siva). He (Siva) is the controller of the material energy, which causes the creation of the material world. he is great, and therefore his devilish activities are simply imitation.”*

 

Text 47

 

ity asya trtiye gunavataratvena paramecvarabheda-drstya tathatvam uktam iti jneyam.

 

iti - thus; asya - of this; trtiye - in the Third Canto; gunavataratvena - as a guna-avatar; paramecvarabheda-drstya - by the explanation that he is different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tathatvam - the state of being like that; uktam - said; iti - thus; jneyam - to be known.

 

From these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam it should be understood that the demigod Siva is one of the guna-avataras. He is different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Text 48

 

nanu

 

na te giritrakhila-loka-pala-

virinca-vaikuntha-surendra-gamyam

jyotih param yatra rajas tamac ca

sattvam na yad brahma nirasta-bhedam

 

ity asya tasya paratvam sruyate evastame.

 

nanu - is it not said?; na - not; te - of your Lordship; giritra - O king of the mountains; akhila-loka-pala - all the directors of departments of material activities; viriYca - Lord Brahma; vaikuntha - Lord Visnu; surendra - the king of heaven; gamyam - they cann understand; jyotih - effulgence; param - transcendental; yatra - wherein; rajah - the mode of passion; tamac ca - and the mode of ignorance; sattvam - the mode of goodness; na - not; yad brahma - which is impersonal Brahma; nirasta-bhedam - without distinction between demigods and human beings; iti - thus; asya - of Him; tasya - of Him; paratvam - supremacy; sruyate - is heard; eva - indeed; astame - in the Eighth Canto.

 

Here someone may protest: Is it not so that the following words are found in the Eighth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam (8.7.31):

 

“O Lord Girica, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance, the various directors of the material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu, or the King of heaven, Mahendra.”*

 

These words of Srimad-Bhagavatam’s Eighth Canto clearly show that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Text 49

 

maivam. mahimna stuyamana hi deva viryena vardhate iti vaidika-nyayena tad-ayukteh. sa hi stavah kalakuta-nacartham eva.

 

ma - not; evam - like that; mahimna - glory; stuyamana - praising; hi - indeed; deva - demigods; viryena - with power; vardhate - increase; iti - thus; vaidika - of the Vedas; nyayena - by the example; tad- ayukteh - not logical for that; sa - that; hi - indeed; stavah - prayer; kalakuta-nacartham - to destroy the kalakuta poison; eva - indeed.

 

To this protest I reply: It is not so. The idea that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead is disproved by the following words of the Vedas:

 

“By glorifying Lord Visnu, the demigods become powerful.”

 

The Srimad-Bhagavatam verse you quoted was an appeal to Lord Siva begging him to destroy the ocean of Kalakuta poison.

 

Text 50

 

tatraiva prite harau bhagavati priye ‘ham sa-caracarah iti.

 

tatra - there; eva - indeed; prite harau bhagavati priye ‘ham sa-caracarah iti - Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.7.40.

 

In that same chapter of Srimad-Bhagavatam (8.7.40) Lord Siva himself affirms the supremacy of Lord Visnu. Siva says:

 

“My dear gentle wife Bhavani, when one performs benevolent activities for others, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari, is very pleased. And when the Lord is pleased, I am also pleased, along with all other living creatures.”*

 

Text 51

 

tatha navame

 

vayam na tata prabhavama bhumni.

yasmin pare ‘nye ‘py aja-jiva-kosah

bhavanti kale na bhavanti hidrcah

sahasraco yatra vayam bhramamah. iti.

 

tatha - so; navame - in the Ninth Canto; vayam - we; na - not; tata - O my dear son; prabhavama - sufficiently able; bhumni - unto the great Supreme Personality of Godhead; yasmin - in whom; pare - in the Transcendence; anye - others; api - even; aja - Lord Brahma; jiva - the living entities; kosah - the universes; bhavanti - can become; kale - in due course of time; na - not; bhavanti - can become; hi - indeed; idrcah - like this; sahasracah - many thousands and millions; yatra - wherein; vayam - all of us; bhramamah - are rotating; iti - thus.

 

That Lord Siva is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also confirmed by these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (9.4.56) where Lord Siva himself explains:

 

“My dear son, I, Lord Brahma, and the other demigods, who rotate within this universe under the misconception of our greatness, cannot exhibit any power to compete with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for innumerable universes and their inhabitants come into existence and are annihilated by the simple direction of the Lord.”*

 

Text 52

 

ete vayam yasya vace mahatmanah sthitah cakuntha iva sutra-yantritah iti ca tad-vakya-virodhat.

 

ete - vayam yasya vace mahatmanah sthitah cakuntha iva sutra-yantritah iti - Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.17.23; ca - also; tad- vakya-virodhat - because of refuting those words.

 

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.17.23) Lord Siva himself affirms:

 

“Therefore, I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is greater than any of us and under whose control are situated all the demigods, material elements, and senses, and even Lord Brahma and I myself, like birds bound by a rope.”*

 

These two verses of Srimad-Bhagavatam clearly refute the idea that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Text 53

 

athava yat Sivasya jyotis tatra sthitam paramatmakhyam caitanyam tat-samyag-jnane tasyapy aksamata yuktaiva.

 

athava - or; yat - which; Sivasya - of Lord Siva; jyotih - effulgence; tatra - there; sthitam - situated; paramatmakhyam - called the Supersoul; caitanyam - coscious; tat- samyag-jnane - in right knowledge; tasya - of Him; api - also; aksamata - inability; yukta - proper; eva - indeed.

 

Or, considering this from another point of view, it may be said that Lord Siva’s effulgence, which is dessribed in the verse (Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.7.31, quoted here in text 48) previously quoted by you, is the home of all-knowing Lord Visnu, who is known as the Paramatma, or Supersoul. Understood in this way, it is quite proper that Lord Siva’s effulgence is beyond the living entities’ understanding. Text 54

 

yad uktam dyu-pataya eva te na yayur antam anantataya tvam api yad antaranda-nicaya nanu savaranah iti.

 

yat - what; uktam - said; dyu-pataya eva te na yayur antam anantataya tvam api yad antaranda-nicaya nanu savaranah iti - Srimad- Bhagavatam 10.87.41.

 

That Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also confirmed by the following words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.87.41), where the Personified Vedas pray to Lord Visnu:

 

“Our dear Lord, although Lord Brahma, the predominating deity of the highest planet, Brahmaloka, and King Indra, the predominating demigod of the heavenly planet, as well as the predominating deities of the sun planet, the moon planet, etc. are all very confidential directors of this material world, they have very little knowledge about You. And what to speak of ordinary human beings and mental speculators? It is not possible for anyone to enumerate the unlimited transcendental qualities of Your Lordship. No one, including the mental speculators and the demigods in the higher planetary systems is actually able to estimate the length and breadth of Your form and characteristics.”*

 

Text 55

 

brahma-samhita-mate tu bhagavad-agga-vicesa

eva sadasivah. na tv anyah. yatha tatraiva

sarvadi-karana-govinda-kathane

 

brahma-samhita-mate - in the opinion of Brahma-samhita; tu - indeed; bhagavad-agga-vicesa - as a limb of Lord Krsna’s body; eva - indeed; sadaSivah - Lord SadaSiva; na - not; tv - but; anyah - another; yatha - as; tatra - there; eva - indeed; sarvadi-karana - the original cause of all causes; govinda - of Lord Krsna; kathane - in the dessription.

 

In the words of Brahma-samhita it is said that Lord SadaSiva is a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. However, the other Siva, the demigod Siva, is not a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. This is dessribed in the following words of Brahma- samhita (5.8 and 5.10) where Lord Krsna’s status as the original cause of all causes is dessribed in these words:

 

Text 56

 

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vacamvada

 

niyatih - regulatrix; sa - she; rama - goddess Rama; devi - goddess; tat-priya - dear to him; tad-vacamvada - under cotnrol.

 

“Ramadevi, the spiritual (cit) potency, beloved consort of the Supreme Lord, is the regulatrix of all entities.”**

 

Text 57

 

tal-liggam bhagavan Sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah ya yonih sa para saktih ity adi.

 

tal-liggam - the emblem of Him; bhagavan - Lord; Sambhuh - Sambhu; jyoti-rupah - the form of light; sanatanah - eternal; ya - which; yonih - place of birth; sa - she; para - divine; saktih - potency; iti - thus; adi - beginning.

 

“The divine plenary portion of Krsna creates the mundane world. at creation there appears a divine halo of the nature of His own subjective portion (svamca). This halo is divine Sambhu, the masculine symbol or manifested emblem of the Supreme Lord. This halo is the dim twilight reflection of the supreme eternal effulgence . This masculine symbol is the subjective portion of divinity who functions as progenitor of the mundane world, subject to the supreme regulatrix (niyati). The conceiving potency in regard to mundane creation makes her appearance out of the supreme regulatrix. She is Maya, the limited non-absolute (apara) potency, the symbol of mundane feminine productivity.”*

 

Text 58

 

tasminn avirabhul ligge

maha-visnuh ity ady-antam.

 

tasmin - in that; avirabhut - maniefsted; ligge - emblem; maha- visnuh - - Lord Maha-Visnu; iti - thus; adi - beginning; antam - end.

 

“the Lord of the world Maha-Visnu is manifest in him (Siva) by His subjective portion in the form of His glance.”**

 

Text 59

 

tad etad abhipretya sadasivatvadi-prasiddhim apy aksipyaha

 

tat - this; etat - that; abhipretya - underdtanding; sadasivatva - the status of Lord sadaSival adi - beginning; prasiddhim - proof; api - also; aksipya - throwing away; aha - said.

 

Lord SadaSiva is thus a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. Therefore the words of the following verse (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.18.21) refer not to Him, but to the demigod Siva:

 

Text 60

 

athapi yat-pada-nakhavasrstam

jagad-viriYcopahrtarhanambhah secam punaty anyatamo mukundat

ko nama loke bhagavat-padarthah

 

atha - therefore; api - certainly; yat - whose; pada-nakha - nails of the feet; avasrstam - emanating; jagat - the whole universe; viriYca - Brahmaji; upahrta - collected; arhana - worship; ambhah - water; sa - along with; icam - Lord Siva; punati - purifies; anyatamah - who else; mukundat - besides the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna; kah - who?; nama - name; loke - within the world; bhagavat - Supreme Lord; pada - position; arthah - worth.

 

“Who can be worthy of the name of the Supreme Lord but the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna? Brahmaji collected the water emanating from the nails of His feet in order to award it to Lord Siva as a worshipful welcome. This very water (the Ganges) is purifying the whole universe, including Lord Siva.”*

 

Text 61

 

spastam. sri-sutah.

 

spastam - clear; sri-sutah - Sri Suta Gosvami.

 

The meaning of this verse is clear. The verse quoted in the beginning of this anuccheda was spoken by Srila Suta Gosvami.

 

This is also explained by Sri Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur in his Sri Bhagavatamrita Kanika:

 

 

By the action of the mode of goodness, the Master of the milk ocean, Shri Vishnu, maintains the universe. By the action of the mode of passion, the universe is created by Lord Brahma, who is generated from the lotus flower arisen from Garbhodasayi Vishnu's navel. In some kalpas, a jiva who has amassed profuse piety takes the position of Lord Brahma and creates the universe. In this instance, due to the infusion of the Lord's potency in that jiva, he is referred to as an avesavatar. Because in that Brahma there is a connection with the mode of passion, he cannot be compared on a equal footing with Lord Vishnu. In those kalpas when there is an absence of any qualified jiva to take up the position of Lord Brahma, then Lord Vishnu Himself becomes Lord Brahma. Similarly, during some manvantaras, the incarnation of the Lord as Yagya has to take up the position of Lord Indra. During that manvantara when Yagya becomes Indra and during that kalpa when Vishnu becomes Brahma, then it can be said that they attain equality with Lord Vishnu.

 

 

The gross body of Brahma, consisting of the total material substance, is also known as Brahma. Hiranyagarbha, Who is manifested within that gross body as subtle living entities, is also known as Brahma. The indwelling soul therein, the second purusha, Garbhodasayi, is Iswar, the Supreme Controller. He Who is the destroyer, by the action of the mode of ignorance is Lord Siva. The indwelling purusha within the Universal Form as well as the subtle form of the Creator, Hiranyagarbha, Who is the super excellent controller born of the lotus flower, have both been referred to as Brahma. This Brahma also accepts the form of Siva for the purpose of destruction.

 

During some kalpas very pious jivas attain this position whereas in others, Lord Vishnu Himself accepts the position of Lord Siva. However, the personality of Sadasiva, is a plenary portion of the self-same form of the Supreme Lord, Shri Krishna, and He is transcendental to the three modes of material nature. It is from Him that the gunavatar of Siva is expanded. Therefore He should be understood to be superior to Brahma, equal to Lord Vishnu, and entirely separate from jivas, who are influenced by the material modes of nature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this prayer to Lord Siva in Srimad Bahgavatam, the Prajapatis declared that even Lord Brahma cannot understand Lord Siva.

So, understanding Siva-tattva fully is not possible.

Lord Siva is Yogisvara, so by his mystic powers he will forever remain mysterious.

Siva is Vishnu acting in connection with the material energy - Durga.

We have already seen slokas from the Bhagavat that establish that.

 

However, Siva is worshiped for the attainment of sayujya-mukti or the oneness with Brahman.

 

The Vedanta Sutra describes it:

 

 

"Many upanisadic passages describe liberation as the absorption of the soul into Brahman. This initial stage of the soul's entry into the effulgent Brahman sphere is called sayujya-mukti. Having attained the spiritual world, the soul may attain four higher kinds of mukti, all of which share the quality of unity established in sayujya-mukti. (Vs 4.4.4)

"The liberated soul is an enjoyer. In sayujya-mukti, the soul enjoys transcendental bliss without a spiritual body like a sleeping person enjoys dreams. The bliss of personal liberation, in which the soul manifests a spiritual body, is far greater. The desire of the liberated soul to enjoy is not materially motivated, for his pleasure is the mercy of the Supreme Lord." (Vs 4.4.13-14)

 

 

However, the Vaishnavas prefer Vishnu-bhakti or Krishna-bhakti for attainment of spiritual bodies in Vaikuntha of Goloka.

 

 

The Vaishnava desires servitude to Vishnu or Krishna in the Vaikuntha planets, they do not desire liberation of Mukti to become ONE with Brahman.

 

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.34

 

tat tasya te sad-asatoḥ parataḥ parasya

nāñjaḥ svarūpa-gamane prabhavanti bhūmnaḥ

brahmādayaḥ kim uta saḿstavane vayaḿ tu

tat-sarga-sarga-viṣayā api śakti-mātram

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat — therefore; tasya — of that; te — of Your Lordship; sat-asatoḥ — of the living entities, moving and not moving; parataḥ — transcendentally situated; parasya — very difficult to understand; na — nor; añjaḥ — as it is; svarūpa-gamane — to approach your reality; prabhavanti — it is possible; bhūmnaḥ — O great one; brahma-ādayaḥ — even such persons as Lord Brahmā; kim uta — what to speak of others; saḿstavane — in offering prayers; vayam tu — as far as we are concerned; tat — of you; sarga-sarga-viṣayāḥ — creations of the creation; api — although; śakti-mātram — to our ability.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Even personalities like Lord Brahmā and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. As far as we are concerned, we are creatures of Lord Brahmā's creation. Under the circumstances, therefore, we cannot offer you adequate prayers, but as far as our ability allows, we have expressed our feelings.

So, yes, if you want sayujya-mukti, then worship Lord Siva.

 

If you prefer the concept of spiritual forms, spiritual love, spiritual sense pleasures etc. etc, then that is attained in worship of Vishnu or Krishna.

 

So, depending on what your spiritual goals are, you will find either Siva or Vishnu as supreme.

 

For attaining ekatva mukti in ONENESS with Brahman, then Siva is supreme God.

 

If you want to sport and play and frolic in spiritual paradise, then you most certainly would find worship of Krishna to be best.

 

Siva worship leads to ONENESS with Brahman.

 

Vaishnavas consider such sayujya mukti to be totally undesirable.

 

So, which God is greater?

Depends on whether you want ONENESS with Brahman or eternal lila with Krishna in Vrindavan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Show me a single instance(authentic)which says Shri Shiva born actually,if you can prove this I shall salute you for ever,mind you no one knows origin of Shiva coz problem is people dont know the difference between ParamShiva,ShriRudra,ShriShankar,ShriVishnu and Gurupita Brahma.Shri Shiva is Ajanma for your kind information.

 

The Gaudiya Vaishnava Conception of Shiva??????????

 

Well, let me think. Oh I know, Shiva is Lord Brahma's 6th son [after the 4-Kumaras and Narada] . . . and . . . oh yes, this too:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1] You are not a fool, hindustani. Is that clear?

 

2] I can learn lessons from fools. Apparently, hindustani, you cannot garner any lessons from a fool, such as I.

 

3] Intelligence means descerning between what is 'authentic' and what is not 'authentic'. That will be clear asap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva.

 

The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda. When there is no qualified jiva to fill those roles then Vishnu fills those roles.

 

Thank you for this. Now, if I accept for the purposes of this argument that there is an entity "Sadashiva" who is non-different from Vishnu, and that "Shiva" is a "demigod" who is lower than Vishnu, then what is the relationship between "Sadashiva" and "Shiva?"

 

Also, someone quoted a "Brahma Samhita" to the effect that Shiva (?Sadashiva) is a "transformation" of Vishnu, just as curd is a transformation of milk. Which Shiva is being referred to by this verse - is it Sadashiva or Shiva? Because if it is Sadashiva, my doubt about the whole "transformation" explanation still remains - and furthermore why describe him as a "transformation" if he is basically non-different from Vishnu. If "shiva" is being referred to, then why doesn't the verse simply say that he is a jiva?

 

I have other questions but let us just clarify these points before moving on.

 

thanks,

 

Raghu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva.

 

The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda.

 

Your statements are not consistent with Srimad Bhagavatam.

In 8th Canto ch. 7, the Siva who is the consort of Bhavani (Paravati) is described as being the all-pervasive Sadasiva:

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.19

 

tad ugra-vegaḿ diśi diśy upary adho

visarpad utsarpad asahyam aprati

bhītāḥ prajā dudruvur ańga seśvarā

arakṣyamāṇāḥ śaraṇaḿ sadāśivam

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat — that; ugra-vegam — very fierce and potent poison; diśi diśi — in all directions; upari — upward; adhaḥ — downward; visarpat — curling; utsarpat — going upward; asahyam — unbearable; aprati — uncontrollable; bhītāḥ — being very much afraid; prajāḥ — the residents of all the worlds; dudruvuḥ — moved here and there; ańga — O Mahārāja Parīkṣit; sa-īśvarāḥ — with the Supreme Lord; arakṣyamāṇāḥ — not being protected; śaraṇam — shelter; sadāśivam — unto the lotus feet of Lord Śiva.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Śiva [sadāśiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

 

This is the guna-avatar Siva, husband of Parvati.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.20

 

vilokya taḿ deva-varaḿ tri-lokyā

bhavāya devyābhimataḿ munīnām

āsīnam adrāv apavarga-hetos

tapo juṣāṇaḿ stutibhiḥ praṇemuḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

vilokya — observing; tam — him; deva-varam — the best of the demigods; tri-lokyāḥ — of the three worlds; bhavāya — for the flourishing; devyā — with his wife, Bhavānī; abhimatam — accepted by; munīnām — great saintly persons; āsīnam — sitting together; adrau — from the top of Kailāsa Hill; apavarga-hetoḥ — desiring liberation; tapaḥ — in austerity; juṣāṇam — being served by them; stutibhiḥ — by prayers; praṇemuḥ — offered their respectful obeisances.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The demigods observed Lord Śiva sitting on the summit of Kailāsa Hill with his wife, Bhavānī, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The demigods offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect.

 

Bhavani is another name for Parvati.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.22

 

tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata

īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ

taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ

prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

 

SYNONYMS

 

tvam ekaḥ — Your Lordship is indeed; sarva-jagataḥ — of the three worlds; īśvaraḥ — the controller; bandha-mokṣayoḥ — of both bondage and liberation; tam — that controller; tvām arcanti — worship you; kuśalāḥ — persons who want good fortune; prapanna-ārti-haram — who can mitigate all the distresses of a sheltered devotee; gurum — you who act as a good advisor to all fallen souls.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

PURPORT

 

Actually Lord Viṣṇu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Viṣṇu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Śiva? They did so because Lord Viṣṇu acts through Lord Śiva in the creation of the material world. Lord Śiva acts on behalf of Lord Viṣṇu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā), this refers to actions performed by Lord Viṣṇu through Lord Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Viṣṇu performs them through Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Viṣṇu. When Lord Viṣṇu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Viṣṇu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Śiva.

 

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.29

 

mukhāni pañcopaniṣadas taveśa

yais triḿśad-aṣṭottara-mantra-vargaḥ

yat tac chivākhyaḿ paramātma-tattvaḿ

deva svayaḿ-jyotir avasthitis te

 

SYNONYMS

 

mukhāni — faces; pañca — five; upaniṣadaḥ — Vedic literatures; tava — your; īśa — O lord; yaiḥ — by which; triḿśat-aṣṭa-uttara-mantra-vargaḥ — in the category of thirty-eight important Vedic mantras; yat — that; tat — as it is; śiva-ākhyam — celebrated by the name Śiva; paramātma-tattvam — which ascertain the truth about Paramātmā; deva — O lord; svayam-jyotiḥ — self-illuminated; avasthitiḥ — situation; te — of Your Lordship.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Śiva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramātmā.

 

PURPORT

 

The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Puruṣa, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojāta, (4) Vāmadeva, and (5) Īśāna. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Śiva, who is therefore celebrated as Śiva or Mahādeva. Another reason why Lord Śiva is called Śiva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Viṣṇu, who is the Paramātmā. Because Lord Śiva is directly an incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu, he is situated as Lord Viṣṇu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patiḿ viśvasyātmeśvaraḿ śāśvatam. śivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Maheśvara, Śiva and Acyuta are especially mentioned.

 

 

All these slokas in the Bhagavatam were offered to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, the guna-avatar who is shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

 

 

Lord Siva is only jiva in his form for destroying the universe at the time of pralaya.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pranam

 

Gee, what a lot of vaishnava

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

This is what happens when people have hierarchy problem.<o:p></o:p>

Sure there are apperant contradictions in the Shastra and each group start with their own base and reconcile them to suit their own doctrine.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Are you so insecure in your own belief, so that you relegate devas to demidog status and Lord Shiva a Jiva! Fortunately Vedas do not support such silly views.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The One God encompasses and surpasses All Attributes.

And the many Gods are the various Attributes of the One that is beyond Attribution.

The One true God is known by many Names; and these Names evoke Forms.

And yet, the One true God encompasses and surpasses All Names, and All Forms.

That One God is effectively unimaginable, unnameable, and unable to be given worldly tribute.

Only in Samadhi can this One God be truly Known.

<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. Kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this.<o:p></o:p>

4.1/30 –31<o:p></o:p>

AS you willed, precisely so it must happen; it could not otherwise. For it was your will, O Bahmana- you, who are so true of resolve. We three (taken together) represent the truth on which you cotemplated. Now there will be born to you, may you be blessed, three sons embodying our rays, who will themselves be celebrated throughout the world; O dear sage, and shall spread your fame too.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Atri Rishi started from not knowing who the Lord is, performed extream tapsya to realize the truth. Supream Brahman is known through ones effort and not by debates or even reading lots of books and certainly not by denigrating Devas. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Jai Shree Krishna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Gee, what a lot of vaishnava

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

This is what happens when people have hierarchy problem.<o:p></o:p>

Sure there are apperant contradictions in the Shastra and each group start with their own base and reconcile them to suit their own doctrine.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Are you so insecure in your own belief, so that you relegate devas to demidog status and Lord Shiva a Jiva! Fortunately Vedas do not support such silly views.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

 

 

Ganeshprasad,

 

Kindly refrain from posting anything on this thread. The specific purpose of this thread is to understand Shiva from the perspective of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. I have no interest in your soapbox lectures or holier-than-thou attitude. If you have nothing to contribute regarding the philosophy of Gaudiya Vaishnavism on this subject, then kindly refrain from diverting this thread. As it is, Sonic Yogi will probably feel he has to respond to this nonsense with yet more nonsense, and then someone will respond to that, etc. THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR YOUR EGO WARS! THIS IS A SERIOUS THREAD WITH A SPECIFIC SUBJECT!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Once again, this is degenerating into a host of opinions, counter-opinions, and free-thinking.

'Inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference' seems to be the

problem. Everything that is not God (Brahman) must be different from God.

So, how can it simultaneously be God?

 

God is everything (not vice versa). This solves the issue of oneness. And

everything is a fraction of God, which solves the issue of difference.

 

Furthermore, God is Consciousness. So, everything is a fraction of

Consciousness. Our (material) world is our human consciousness, which is a

mere fraction of God (or total Consciousness or Reality).

 

Why is this inconceivable? Because we are not used to include time in the

overall equation of Reality. God’s Consciousness is continuous (non

fractional in time). However, somehow, our human consciousness is merely

a fraction of total Consciousness. We are only conscious 'every now and

then'. So, we are only conscious of 'a limited set' of total Consciousness, at

particular points in time or intervals. This is 'simultaneous oneness and

difference'.

 

Finally, God is unchanging, because God is a singularity. God is a conscious

point, smaller than the smallest, without form. Form is created by God’s

'dynamics', or His 'energies', or His 'continuous positional change in

geometrical space and time'. Any particular subset of total Consciousness

creates a unique, and more or less complete, conscious experience of

Reality. These infinitely many different realities are all consistent, because

they all derive from this one singular Consciousness or God..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is safe to say that in 6 months raghu will probably ask this same question again on this forum in some form. It is only about the 100th time some form of this debate has been introduced in the past 3 months probably will come up 100 times in the 3 months after that and still there are no answers that satisfy. Just kidding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Your statements are not consistent with Srimad Bhagavatam.

In 8th Canto ch. 7, the Siva who is the consort of Bhavani (Paravati) is described as being the all-pervasive Sadasiva:

 

 

 

This is the guna-avatar Siva, husband of Parvati.

 

 

 

Bhavani is another name for Parvati.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All these slokas in the Bhagavatam were offered to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, the guna-avatar who is shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

 

 

Lord Siva is only jiva in his form for destroying the universe at the time of pralaya.

 

 

In the Bhagavatam and other sastra we can see the story of the Mohini avatar of Vishnu clarify the position of Parvati's husband as not being God:

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/en1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In the Bhagavatam and other sastra we can see the story of the Mohini avatar of Vishnu clarify the position of Parvati's husband as not being God:

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/en1

Which verse in particular are you paraphrasing?

Are we supposed to read the whole chapter to try and find what you think you found there?

 

Quote the verse which says that Lord Siva is not "God".

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.22

 

tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata

īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ

taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ

prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

 

SYNONYMS

 

tvam ekaḥ — Your Lordship is indeed; sarva-jagataḥ — of the three worlds; īśvaraḥ — the controller; bandha-mokṣayoḥ — of both bondage and liberation; tam — that controller; tvām arcanti — worship you; kuśalāḥ — persons who want good fortune; prapanna-ārti-haram — who can mitigate all the distresses of a sheltered devotee; gurum — you who act as a good advisor to all fallen souls.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

PURPORT

 

Actually Lord Viṣṇu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Viṣṇu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Śiva? They did so because Lord Viṣṇu acts through Lord Śiva in the creation of the material world. Lord Śiva acts on behalf of Lord Viṣṇu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā), this refers to actions performed by Lord Viṣṇu through Lord Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Viṣṇu performs them through Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Viṣṇu. When Lord Viṣṇu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Viṣṇu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Śiva.

 

This all refers to Lord Siva the husband of Bhavani.

The Sadasiva in Vaikuntha is the husband of Laksmi.

In other words, the Sadasiva of Vaikuntha is Maha-Vishnu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the difference between Siva and jIva is that the all-auspicious Personality of Godhead is never affected by the material qualities, whereas the minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are prone to be affected by the qualities of material nature. [Kb 87]

 

Lord Siva is not jIva-tattva. But BrahmA is jIva-tattva. [Lecture]

 

So the three guNas, sattva-guNa, rajo-guNa, tamo-guNa, that is going on since the creation. So here it is said, sthity-Adaye hari-viriJci-hareti saMjJAH. This, the same Lord, Supreme Personality of Godhead, ViSNu, has expanded Himself as Lord Siva and Lord BrahmA. We are also expansions. BrahmA is also jIva-tattva. He's also like us, jIva-tattva. Lord Siva is between viSNu-tattva and jIva-tattva. And Lord ViSNu is viSNu-tattva. ViSNu-tattva, via media, and jIva-tattva. [Lecture]

 

And that is the difference between ourself and God. God does not forget. We forget. We are claiming, some of us, foolishly claiming, that "I am God, but I forget." God does not forget. Therefore I am not God. Is that clear? That is the difference between living jIva and Siva, God. He does not forget. In the Bhagavad-gItA He says, vedAhaM samatItAni: "I know everything of this present, past, future, everything." But we do not know. We have forgotten. [Conversation]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read in one of Srila Prabhupada's books that Siva has 84% of the qualities of the Godhead and the max a jiva can have is 78% of the qualities of the Godhead. Siva is a God but some of the avaturas have like 93%. The jiva can never be a God, a jiva can only become Godly by trying to develop 78% of the qualities of Godhead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is one of Prabhupdada's explanations of what is going on.

 

 

yuktaḥ paraḥ puruṣa eka ihāsya dhatte

sthity-ādaye hari-viriñci-hareti saḿjñāḥ

śreyāḿsi tatra khalu sattva-tanor nṛṇāḿ syuḥ

SYNONYMS

sattvam — goodness; rajaḥ — passion; tamaḥ — the darkness of ignorance; iti — thus; prakṛteḥ — of the material nature; guṇāḥ — qualities; taiḥ — by them; yuktaḥ — associated with; paraḥ — transcendental; puruṣaḥ — the personality; ekaḥ — one; iha asya — of this material world; dhatte — accepts; sthiti-ādaye — for the matter of creation, maintenance and destruction, etc.; hariViṣṇu, the Personality of Godhead; viriñciBrahmā; hara — Lord Śiva; iti — thus; saḿjñāḥ — different features; śreyāḿsi — ultimate benefit; tatra — therein; khalu — of course; sattva — goodness; tanoḥ — form; nṛṇām — of the human being; syuḥ — derived.

TRANSLATION

The transcendental Personality of Godhead is indirectly associated with the three modes of material nature, namely passion, goodness and ignorance, and just for the material world's creation, maintenance and destruction He accepts the three qualitative forms of Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Śiva. Of these three, all human beings can derive ultimate benefit from Viṣṇu, the form of the quality of goodness.

PURPORT

That Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, by His plenary parts, should be rendered devotional service, as explained above, is confirmed by this statement. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa and all His plenary parts are viṣṇu-tattva, or the Lordship of Godhead. From Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the next manifestation is Baladeva. From Baladeva is Sańkarṣaṇa, from Sańkarṣaṇa is Nārāyaṇa, from Nārāyaṇa there is the second Sańkarṣaṇa, and from this Sańkarṣaṇa the Viṣṇu puruṣa-avatāras. The Viṣṇu or the Deity of the quality of goodness in the material world is the puruṣa-avatāra known as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu or Paramātmā. Brahmā is the deity of rajas (passion), and Śiva of ignorance. They are the three departmental heads of the three qualities of this material world. Creation is made possible by the goodness of Viṣṇu, and when it requires to be destroyed, Lord Śiva does it by the tāṇḍavanṛtya. The materialists and the foolish human beings worship Brahmā and Śiva respectively. But the pure transcendentalists worship the form of goodness, Viṣṇu, in His various forms. Viṣṇu is manifested by His millions and billions of integrated forms and separated forms. The integrated forms are called Godhead, and the separated forms are called the living entities or the jīvas. Both the jīvas and Godhead have their original spiritual forms. Jīvas are sometimes subjected to the control of material energy, but the Viṣṇu forms are always controllers of this energy. When Viṣṇu, the Personality of Godhead, appears in the material world, He comes to deliver the conditioned living beings who are under the material energy. Such living beings appear in the material world with intentions of being lords, and thus they become entrapped by the three modes of nature. As such, the living entities have to change their material coverings for undergoing different terms of imprisonment. The prison house of the material world is created by Brahmā under instruction of the Personality of Godhead, and at the conclusion of a kalpa the whole thing is destroyed by Śiva. But as far as maintenance of the prison house is concerned, it is done by Viṣṇu, as much as the state prison house is maintained by the state. Anyone, therefore, who wishes to get out of this prison house of material existence, which is full of miseries like repetition of birth, death, disease and old age, must please Lord Viṣṇu for such liberation. Lord Viṣṇu is worshiped by devotional service only, and if anyone has to continue prison life in the material world, he may ask for relative facilities for temporary relief from the different demigods like Śiva, Brahmā, Indra and Varuṇa. No demigod, however, can release the imprisoned living being from the conditioned life of material existence. This can be done only by Viṣṇu. Therefore, the ultimate benefit may be derived from Viṣṇu, the Personality of Godhead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Raghu,

 

In my opinion you should meet some senior gaudiya vaishnava acharya in person to get reply to your query.

 

Shiva tattva is very difficult to understand. Even Lord Brahma cannot clarify it. Either Lord Narayana or Lord Shiva himself can explain his poistion & his relationship with Supreme personality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

according to Sri tulsidasa,Sadashiva is a manifestation of Sri Hari but at the same time,He practises unbroken devotion to Sri Ramacandra(as hanuman,As Himelf in kailasa) and Sri Krsnacandra(as flute,as gopa,as gopesvara mahadeva,as bhima-ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY.)

 

And if you speculate how is this possible-Sri Parashurama worshipped Lord Shankara...by your process,even Parashurama cannot be God...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually tuslidasa's ramacaritamanasa was concieved by Uma pati Himself.

 

Tulsidasa realises the initimate and complex relationship between the two lords perfectly.

 

Also Visvanatha chakravarti offers his faultless advice: When the sastras procalim that Visnu is NEVER to be considered as same as Shankara or brahma is becoz they are Jivatmas(Shiva-SOMETIMES).

 

It is very important to note that the bhagavatam glorifies Sadashiva as,"You assume the forms of Brahm,Visnu and Mahesvara in the material world."

This signifies fully the indifference of sadashiva and Lord Visnu/Narayana.

 

In Vaikuntha...the Lord appears in many eternal forms...As sadashiva,He worships Himself.

 

Unless and until you read reread and reread the underlined sentence,you will never understand Sadashiva.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Gaudiya tradition....Sri Krsna is the Primeval,Original Supreme Person.

 

 

The devi bhagavat supports this fact.

 

 

Actually,according to His desires,He takes up many forms.

"Sveccha pad prithah vapuh."- Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

She Krsna can take any form at will.

 

For one year,He remained as millions of gopas and calves.But each gopa and each calf was Sri Krsna Himself.The calf's body was as spiritual as would be Sri Krsna's.

 

Only a fool thinks that Sri Krsna becomes something inferior when He manifests as Sadashiva(Sadashiva being an eternal form like Sriman Narayana).

 

The veda states,"Purnat purna mudachyate.."

 

Godhead never becomes less...Yes,He may accept material influence(rudras.) but In Vaikuntha(Sadashiva's abode),Maya doesn't even go there...She CAN"T go there..

 

***

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may note the description of Kailasa in Bhagavatam.

 

srila prabhupada ACCEPTED,"There are wish fulfilling trees that are found in Vaikuntha."

 

He didn't say much further...He didn't elaborate...

 

But Giants like Rupa Gosvami are perfectly expound on the truth..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Ganeshprasad,

 

Kindly refrain from posting anything on this thread. The specific purpose of this thread is to understand Shiva from the perspective of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. THIS IS A SERIOUS THREAD WITH A SPECIFIC SUBJECT!

 

Pranam Raghu<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Just in case you did not notice this is a general forum<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Most important what is the nature and purpose of your inquiry, is it to learn and assimilate that knowledge in your sadhna or is it simply find holes in their doctrines? Are you the sole judge to explain their inconsistencies? <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

If you are SERIOUS ABOUT LEARNING THE SPECIFIC SUBJECT! Perhaps you can take Harihar advice and approach a senior gaudiya vaishnava acharya in person to get reply to your query.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Jai Shree Krishna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Which verse in particular are you paraphrasing?

Are we supposed to read the whole chapter to try and find what you think you found there?

 

Quote the verse which says that Lord Siva is not "God".

 

 

 

This all refers to Lord Siva the husband of Bhavani.

The Sadasiva in Vaikuntha is the husband of Laksmi.

In other words, the Sadasiva of Vaikuntha is Maha-Vishnu.

 

You seem to be saying different things, I gave the opinion of Jiva Goswami and Visvanath Cakravarti who both said that there is a Shiva who is a plenary expansion of Krishna, Vishnu tattva, God himself, and that there is another Shiva which is a post like Brahma; which is either a jiva (who becomes superior to ordinary jivas) or Vishnu (when there is no qualified jiva to fill the post).Here are the relevant verses:

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/10/en1

 

naham parayur rishayo na marici-mukhya

jananti yad-viracitam khalu sattva-sargah

yan-mayaya mushita-cetasa isa daitya-

martyadayah kim uta sasvad-abhadra-vrittah

 

SYNONYMS

 

na -- neither; aham -- I; para-ayuh -- that personality who lives for millions and millions of years (Lord Brahma); rishayah -- the seven rishis of the seven planets; na -- nor; marici-mukhyah -- headed by Marici Rishi; jananti -- know; yat -- by whom (the Supreme Lord); viracitam -- this universe, which has been created; khalu -- indeed; sattva-sargah -- although born in the mode of material goodness; yat-mayaya -- by the influence of whose energy; mushita-cetasah -- their hearts are bewildered; isa -- O my Lord; daitya -- the demons; martya-adayah -- the human beings and others; kim uta -- what to speak of; sasvat -- always; abhadra-vrittah -- influenced by the base qualities of material nature.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O my Lord, I, who am considered to be the best of the demigods, and Lord Brahma and the great rishis, headed by Marici, are born of the mode of goodness. Nonetheless, we are bewildered by Your illusory energy and cannot understand what this creation is. Aside from us, what is to be said of others, like the demons and human beings, who are in the base modes of material nature [rajo-guna and tamo-guna]? How will they know You?

 

SB 8.12.35: O Maharaja Parikshit, best of kings, when Lord Siva had fully discharged semen, he could see how he himself had been victimized by the illusion created by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus he restrained himself from any further maya.

 

SB 8.12.36: Thus Lord Siva could understand his position and that of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited potencies. Having reached this understanding, he was not at all surprised by the wonderful way Lord Vishnu had acted upon him.

 

SB 8.12.37: Seeing Lord Siva unagitated and unashamed, Lord Vishnu [Madhusudana] was very pleased. Thus He resumed His original form and spoke as follows.

 

SB 8.12.38: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O best of the demigods, although you have been amply harassed because of My potency in assuming the form of a woman, you are established in your position. Therefore, may all good fortune be upon you.

 

SB 8.12.39: My dear Lord Sambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount.

 

SB 8.12.40: The material, external energy [maya], who cooperates with Me in creation and who is manifested in the three modes of nature, will not be able to bewilder you any longer.

 

SB 8.12.41: Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, having thus been praised by the Supreme Personality, who bears the mark of Srivatsa on His chest, Lord Siva circumambulated Him. Then, after taking permission from Him, Lord Siva returned to his abode, Kailasa, along with his associates.

 

SB 8.12.42: O descendant of Bharata Maharaja, Lord Siva, in jubilation, then addressed his wife, Bhavani, who is accepted by all authorities as the potency of Lord Vishnu.

 

SB 8.12.43: Lord Siva said: O Goddess, you have now seen the illusory energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the unborn master of everyone. Although I am one of the principal expansions of His Lordship, even I was illusioned by His energy. What then is to be said of others, who are fully dependent on maya?

 

SB 8.12.44: When I finished performing mystic yoga for one thousand years, you asked me upon whom I was meditating. Now, here is that Supreme Person to whom time has no entrance and who the Vedas cannot understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But, those quotes seems to be at odds with Srimad Bhagavatam.

I don't know where you got those translation of if they are dependable.

Here is the best explanation that I can find. Srila Prabhupada says that Siva is simultaneously an expansion of Vishnu and jiva.

As the annihilator of the universe, the jiva aspect of Siva is acting.

 

It doesn't appear as Siva is two different types but simultaneously a combination of jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva.

 

As pointed out in this purport, the original Sadasiva in Vaikuntha is the consort of Rama-devi, so that makes the original Sadasiva a form of Vishnu that has not actually been transformed into the consort of Mahamaya.

 

When Rama-devi transforms into Mahamaya, then Sadasiva transforms into Rudra. That Rudra Siva is simulataneously jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva.

It appears that this combination of jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva is what we know as Siva-tattva.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 6.79

ananta brahmāṇḍe rudra — sadāśivera aḿśa

guṇāvatāra teńho, sarva-deva-avataḿsa

SYNONYMS

ananta — unlimited; brahmāṇḍe — in the universes; rudra — Lord Śiva; sadāśivera aḿśa — part and parcel of Sadāśiva; guṇa-avatāra — an incarnation of a quality; teńho — he also; sarva-deva-avataḿsa — the ornament of all the demigods.

TRANSLATION

Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadāśiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a guṇāvatāra [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes.

PURPORT

There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Śiva. They are as follows: Ajaikapāt, Ahibradhna, Virūpākṣa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurūpa, Devaśreṣṭha Tryambaka, Sāvitra, Jayanta, Pināki and Aparājita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yājī. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahmā and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Śeṣa. Lord Śiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guṇa he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Brahma-saḿhitā. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-saḿhitā the relationship between Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Purāṇas it is found that Śiva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahmā and sometimes from the head of Viṣṇu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sańkarṣaṇa and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vāyu Purāṇa there is a description of Sadāśiva in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. That Sadāśiva is a direct expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadāśiva (Lord Śambhu) is an expansion from the Sadāśiva in the Vaikuṇṭha planets (Lord Viṣṇu) and that his consort, Mahāmāyā, is an expansion of Ramā-devī, or Lakṣmī. Mahāmāyā is the origin or birthplace of material nature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...