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Sarva gattah

The jiva is the tatastha sakti

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That's the way I understand it.

 

If somebody says Krishna cannot beget more souls, unlimited souls according to his sweet wish, then they are certainly minimizing Krishna.

 

"having one been"

"the soul never ceases to be"

 

 

something interesting is that tatastha means marginal, but if you take just tata this means father and we come from the father from the marginal area (Lord Shiva), I don't know sanskrit but this is curious

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something interesting is that tatastha means marginal, but if you take just tata this means father and we come from the father from the marginal area (Lord Shiva), I don't know sanskrit but this is curious

SB 3.31.19 purport:

 

 

The living entity is born of the Supreme Godhead as part and parcel. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā, anādir ādir govindaḥ: [bs. 5.1] Govinda, the Supreme person, has no cause. He is unborn. But the living entity is born of Him. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāḿśaḥ: both the living entity and the Supreme Lord are unborn, but it has to be understood that the supreme cause of the part and parcel is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Brahma-saḿhitā therefore says that everything has come from the Supreme Personality of Godhead (sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [bs. 5.1]). The Vedānta-sūtra confirms this also. Janmādy asya yataḥ: [sB 1.1.1] the Absolute Truth is the original source of everyone's birth. Kṛṣṇa also says in Bhagavad-gītā, ahaḿ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: "I am the source of birth of everything, including Brahmā and Lord Śiva and the living entities." This is self-realization. One should know that he is under the control of the Supreme Lord and not think that he is fully independent. Otherwise, why should he be put into conditional life?

 

All living entities are BORN of Krishna.

It says that in that shastra quite definitively.

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SB 3.31.19 purport:

 

 

 

All living entities are BORN of Krishna.

It says that in that shastra quite definitively.

 

 

what do you mean with Krsna?

 

Krsna is the Original Source of All, but we don't come from Him directly from His original form in Goloka but from an expansion of Him (Lord Shiva in the marginal area?) Lord Shiva is an expansion of Lord Krsna but as prabhupada says is just a portion and not vishnu tattva, it is in the middle between them. So I would like to know what do you mean with we born of Krsna.

 

Born from Krsna directly or his Shiva's expansion?

 

Why Prabhupada never told us that we come from Lord Shiva and say that He is just a demigod?

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what do you mean with Krsna?

 

Krsna is the Original Source of All, but we don't come from Him directly from His original form in Goloka but from an expansion of Him (Lord Shiva in the marginal area?) Lord Shiva is an expansion of Lord Krsna but as prabhupada says is just a portion and not vishnu tattva, it is in the middle between them. So I would like to know what do you mean with we born of Krsna.

 

Born from Krsna directly or his Shiva's expansion?

 

Why Prabhupada never told us that we come from Lord Shiva and say that He is just a demigod?

 

Krishna includes Lord Shiva.

Shiva is not a second Godhead.

He is an expansion of Govinda.

Shiva actually has a spiritual planet in the spiritual world - Maheshdham.

It is the first strata of Vaikuntha above the material world on the other side of the Viraja.

 

So, Siva is basically Krishna.

When Vishnu (Krishna) comes in contact with the material energy he transforms into Shiva.

 

So, originally the jivas come not actually from Krishna but from his energy.

Not even Krishna directly, but his energy.

 

Shiva becomes the medium for that energy to become injected into prakriti.

 

The Gaudiyas somewhat mask the glories of Siva.

They are not out to make Shiva bhaktas.

 

But, Shiva is greater than Brahma.

Shiva is an eternal Godhead like Vishnu.

 

Shiva is a form of Maha-Sankarshan in Vaikuntha.

 

Shiva is also God.

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Sonic said.

 

 

I don't feel I need myths.

I can take the cold, hard truth of the shastra and I don't like to be baby fed myths like Aesops fables.

 

So, again "Prabhupada said" is not absolute to me.

It has to match the shastric version.

 

If it doesn't, I just think that Srila Prabhupada was watering things down for the dull-headed followers who were prone to ask him so many dumb questions earning them the myths Prabhupada felt he needed to tell to nuture them along.

 

There is no "Back to Godhead" theme in the shastra that I have ever seen.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada qualified his "Back to Godhead" Statement in Krishna Book, among other places, where he said that for us it meant taking birth on some earth planet where Krsna was enacting his pastimes, perhaps in Dwarka or Gokula.

 

And as far as that letter to Jagadish, that happens to fit nicely with the exacting sastric statement that "general sakhis" are JIVAS. Jivas are known to have independence and tendency to take shelter of either or energies. I happen to like his explanation that we Jivas always, always, have the option to exercise our independence yet due to the nature of being fixed in loving service, we do not.

 

It is just words anway. At that point, noone in the spiritual world is saying, Nyah Nyah, I am sakti tattva and you are only Jiva tattva.

 

It is a nice contemplation for us though. Thanks.

 

Hare Krsna

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Jaiva Dharma

 

Chapter 15 -- Prameya: Jiva-Tattva

 

Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)? <o:p></o:p>

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti. Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupaas sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

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Here we have a nice reference to the shakti-parinamavada of the Gaudiyas.

 

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.34

 

yady eṣoparatā devī

 

māyā vaiśāradī matiḥ

 

sampanna eveti vidur

 

mahimni sve mahīyate

 

SYNONYMS

 

yadi — if, however; eṣā — they; uparatā — subsided; devī māyā — illusory energy; vaiśāradī — full of knowledge; matiḥ — enlightenment; sampannaḥ — enriched with; eva — certainly; iti — thus; viduḥ — being cognizant of; mahimni — in the glories; sve — of the self; mahīyate — being situated in.

 

TRANSLATION

 

If the illusory energy subsides and the living entity becomes fully enriched with knowledge by the grace of the Lord, then he becomes at once enlightened with self-realization and thus becomes situated in his own glory.

 

PURPORT

 

Because the Lord is the absolute Transcendence, all of His forms, names, pastimes, attributes, associates and energies are identical with Him. His transcendental energy acts according to His omnipotency. The same energy acts as His external, internal and marginal energies, and by His omnipotency He can perform anything and everything through the agency of any of the above energies. He can turn the external energy into internal by His will. Therefore by His grace the external energy, which is employed in illusioning those living beings who want to have it, subsides by the will of the Lord in terms of repentance and penance for the conditioned soul. And the very same energy then acts to help the purified living being make progress on the path of self-realization. The example of electrical energy is very appropriate in this connection. The expert electrician can utilize the electrical energy for both heating and cooling by adjustment only. Similarly, the external energy, which now bewilders the living being into continuation of birth and death, is turned into internal potency by the will of the Lord to lead the living being to eternal life. When a living being is thus graced by the Lord, he is placed in his proper constitutional position to enjoy eternal spiritual life.

So, why do they say that the jiva cannot be transformed into internal energy (svarupa-shakti)?

 

If Krishna can take the inferior energy of matter and turn it into internal energy, then why can't he take marginal energy and transform it into internal energy?

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So, why do they say that the jiva cannot be transformed into internal energy (svarupa-shakti)?

 

If Krishna can take the inferior energy of matter and turn it into internal energy, then why can't he take marginal energy and transform it into internal energy?

 

 

There is no need to transform the jiva. The jiva is always internal energy but we are now in forgetfullness of this fact.

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There is no need to transform the jiva. The jiva is always internal energy but we are now in forgetfullness of this fact.

Yes and no.

Bhaktivinode makes it clear that the jiva is produced from the jiva-shakti and NOT the cit-shakti.

 

But, the jiva can be transformed into internal potency with the addition of cit-shakti and hladini-shakti as explained by both Prabhupada and Bhaktivinode.

(quote are already provided in previous posts)

 

Internal energy is sat-chit-ananda.

The marginal jiva is just sat.(existence)

 

When the chit and the ananda (hladini-shakti) are added to the jiva then the jiva can be considered as internal potency.

 

The jiva is fully compatible with chit-shakti and hladini-shakti, but in his marginal condition he is bereft of these potencies.

Or we could say undiscovered by the jiva.

 

The spiritual master and Krishna bestows these potencies upon the jiva.

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Jaiva Dharma

 

 

 

Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)? <?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti. Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupaas sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

 

Interesting. When established, or situated, in his Jiva sakti, Krsna assumes the swarup of Vilas-murti of Vraja, or Baladeva.

 

Also known as Sesa Tattva, this Baladeva form manifests Nitya-mukta-parishad JIVAS, who render service.

 

Similarly as Sesa Rupa, or Sankarsana in Paravyoma, manifests 8 types of these eternally liberated Jivas to render service.

 

Differentially, as an avatara of Sankarsana named Maha-Visnu, he situates himself within the Jiva sakti as Paramatma rupa and manifests Jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world under the INFLUENCE of Maha Maya and can be DEFEATED by her until they take shelter of Hladini Sakti of the Cit Sakti.

 

So here we see a division among the qualifications of JIVAS.

 

So there are Nitya Siddhas who are Swarupa Sakti Tattva.

There are Nitya Siddhas who are Jiva Sakti Tattva.

There are Sadhana Siddhas who are Jiva Sakti Tattva.

There are Nitya Baddha Jivas, who are to engage in Sadhana to become siddha.

 

It would seem that in the case of some Jivas, the nitya mukta parishads, there is no characteristic to their independence that they would fall under the spell of illusion, that it is not even a possibility, as opposed to what is infered about sadhana siddhas in Srila Prabhupada's statement.

 

Even though he admits it never happens, and we have no examples of such a thing happening.

 

Another reason why I don't care if anyone considers that Sadhana Siddha Jivas have no possibility of fallilng under Maha Maya. Because they actually don't, even if technically they do, they just don't. :)

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Another reason why I don't care if anyone considers that Sadhana Siddha Jivas have no possibility of fallilng under Maha Maya. Because they actually don't, even if technically they do, they just don't. :)

 

I don't have the reference at hand and it is time for me to hit the sack, but I do remember reading something to the effect that a sadhana-siddha is also nitya-siddha and upon the attainment of siddha the distinction between the two disappears.

 

In Goloka there is no division of sadhana-siddha and nitya-siddha.

That form of discrimination does not exist there.

 

Upon becoming siddha one becomes an eternal associate of Krishna and there is no discrimination that one of sadhana-siddha or nitya-siddha.

 

The distinction ceases to exist in eternality.

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Sonic asks: "then why can't he take marginal energy and transform it into internal ?

 

He probably could, but it is not stated in sastra that he can, or does.

 

Sonic says: "But, the jiva can be transformed into internal potency with the addition of cit-shakti and hladini-shakti as explained by both Prabhupada and Bhaktivinode.

(quote are already provided in previous posts)"

 

This is a misrepresentation. They do not say transforms into.

 

Sonic says: "When the chit and the ananda (hladini-shakti) are added to the jiva then the jiva can be considered as internal potency"

 

I would say "considered as good as internal potency"' Even the some nitya-mukta-parishads are not considered as internal potency, but as Jiva potency, although they exhibit virtually identical characteristics.

 

Don't forget Beggars lucid explanation of the varying degrees of the margin of the shoreline and the saturation levels of water in the sand along the width of the margin. Nitya Mukta Parishad Jivas are still situated in the Marginal Potency, as is SesaBaladevawhen he expands there. It doesn't equate to being marginalized necessarily. But it is true that at points along the margin, a Jiva may be situated in ignorance, bereft of Hladini Sakti.

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I don't have the reference at hand and it is time for me to hit the sack, but I do remember reading something to the effect that a sadhana-siddha is also nitya-siddha and upon the attainment of siddha the distinction between the two disappears.

 

In Goloka there is no division of sadhana-siddha and nitya-siddha.

That form of discrimination does not exist there.

 

Upon becoming siddha one becomes an eternal associate of Krishna and there is no discrimination that one of sadhana-siddha or nitya-siddha.

 

The distinction ceases to exist in eternality.

 

Yeah, I liken the nomenclature in these analyses to a Zen Koan for Jnana Misra Bhaktas. If yer gonna be a Muni, gotta have a position to defend. This type of discussion helps Munis to become Sthiya or situated in Pure Bhakti. Jaya Prabhus. Sweet dreams of Krsna.

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Another reason why I don't care if anyone considers that Sadhana Siddha Jivas have no possibility of fallilng under Maha Maya. Because they actually don't, even if technically they do, they just don't. :)

Well, that is another myth.

Technically, there is NO possibility of them falling down.

 

Here is a rough example.

If you live on a planet where marijuana doesn't grow, then there is NO chance that somebody is going to come up and try to sell you a bag of weed.

 

 

So, Maya, has absolutely NO play, access or entry into the spiritual world.

Maya is only accessible from the Viraja.

 

So, there is NO possibility of the nitya-siddhas to fall down because Maya cannot exert any influence in the spiritual world on the spiritual planets.

 

The concept we have of free will is mundane.

The free will of the parshadas does not include the possibility of giving up Krishna at any time.

 

That again is another ISKCON myth that the guru taught to help the conditioned livings entities feel that they aren't going to prison in Vaikuntha but are going to absolute freedom.

 

There is NO chance of falling into maya in a world where maya does not exist.

 

You can't take LSD if you live on a planet where LSD does not exist.

 

In the spiritual world all the devotees of the Lord have absolute protection.

There is NOT A CHANCE that they can fall down into maya.

 

That is the strength of the protection that Krishna gives to his devotees.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja even spoke of the concept of divine slavery.

So, be careful about surrendering to Krishna because once he gets you on his planet there is NO going back to maya.

Eternal Divine Slavery!!!!!!!

 

Are you sure that is what you want? ;)

 

Srila Prabhupada led us to believe that we can still change our mind once we get to Goloka, but that again is another of his fables.

 

It's a one way ticket to Paradise.

 

Don't believe Prabhupada.

He is a trickster sent here by Krishna to secure some divine slaves by hook or by crook!!:rolleyes:

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Sonic Prabhu,

 

How does the above speculation reconcile with this quote pasted back on page 3?

 

 

It seems to me that these perfect living entities who engage in the highest rasa available are still considered jiva or tatastha or marginal because they always retain the option/potential to fall or lord it over material nature.

 

But there is no recorded instance of one EVER doing so, which is testimony to the transformation that occurs when one has reached the level of mature personal exchanges with Krsna due to Prema. They NEVER fall, but always retain the potential, ala Free will.

 

As far as I can tell, this is the only instance of something we can conceive of happening, that does not. Sadhana Siddha Jivas are eternally transformed in their ORIENTATION due to being enveloped by Hladini Sakti.

 

They may even come to the material world, and even appear to play a role as demon or adversary (ie. the cowherd boy Sankachuda) but they are always remembering Krsna under YOGA MAYA'S spell, not Maha Maya's.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Excellent, thank you

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Hi sarva, you are now the third person I have seen plagiarizing my writing on this forum. I don't visit here very much anymore so there may be more. The first two I confronted: Krsna (who copy and pasted numerous writings of mine from other forums and tried to pass them off as his here, still there are many available here without his citing who actually wrote them), and suchandra who I caught plagiarizing me once. In both cases when confronted, their response was somewhat similar, they wouldn't admit they did anything wrong, suchandra was insulting to me for daring to expose his plagiarism. So what are you going to do? What is it with you people? You guys are some of the most prolific writers on this forum, why is it you feel the need to plagiarize? It's perfectly alright to copy and paste if you cite the source, but copy and pasting without doing that says something about you guys (girls?) and your desire to gain adoration.

 

Yes, it is you writings and I apolodize to you and your wonderful realizations

and will make shaw I quote you as I quote Prabhupada

 

 

originally written by shiva The jiva is the tatastha sakti of the Lord, also called the jiva sakti or marginal potency, the jiva doesn’t go there, it is not a place you can go to, it is what he is.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’<o:p></o:p>

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’<o:p></o:p>

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya<o:p></o:p>

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

PURPORT<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami writes:<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord’s separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). The Lord’s personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord’s lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Thus the Lord’s marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord’s glories and the other group is not aware of them. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

tatra prathamo ‘ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord’s potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord’s internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

“Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation.”<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

In this way we have described the Lord’s marginal potency. we have already described the Lord’s internal potency.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

This is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’<o:p></o:p>

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’<o:p></o:p>

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya<o:p></o:p>

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

SYNONYMS<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

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Posted January 28th, 2009 <small>11:57pm</small> by:

<dl class="vcard" _currentuserismember="false" dojotype="ProfileThumbnail" _target="267lmkppnr449"><dt> Chand </dt><dd class="relationship" style="display: none;"></dd><dd>

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Falldown of the Jiva - as explained by His Holiness Suhotra Swami Maharaja, retold by Chand

 

 

How does the jiva fall down?

 

In the spiritual world, jivas initially develop a sense of lack. The jiva feels that it is inferior to Krishna and feels the lack of being the Enjoyer. The jiva, then develops envy for the position of Krishna. This envy causes the falldown of the jiva to the material world. Nevertheless, this is not a flare-up of envy or a swelling up of negative emotions. This is a very informed and conscious choice on part of the jiva - a choice to enjoy without Krishna.

 

Jivas are similar to Krsihna in quality, not quantity. Krishna feels love, anger, has a tendency to cheat and so on... so does the jiva. However Krishna is unlimited and the jova or the spirit soul is limited. Krishna is independent; so is the jiva. However, Krishna's independence is unlimited while that of the jiva is very small. Krishna gives this minute independence to the jiva. Krishna does not want service or love by choice. Jivas always have the freedom to choose between loving or not loving Krishna. Unfortunatley, some envious jivas in the spiritual world, decide to become independant from Krishna. Krishna loves it when His devotees or jivas surrunder to Him volunturality. This is considered the "jewel-like quality" of the jiva - the voluntary surrunder. Jivas who decide to enjoy independantly, fall down to one of the material universes.

 

Although seeking independence, the fallen jiva is still highly qualified and therefore gets the position of Brahma. Brahma is a position, and not a person. Brahma is the universal engineer. Thus the jiva gets the position of Brahma. Brahma is still an enlightened, liberated entity, still he has a tendency to think that he is independent from Krishna. In Brahmaloka and other similar higher level planets like Tapoloka, Jnanaloka etc, there is absolutely no physical desire. These planets constitute the highest realms in the material world. These worlds are very much into mental speculation, philosophy etc. Women in these worlds are devoted to Krishna and they dance for the pleasure of the Krishna deity that Brahma worships. The jiva does the job of Brahma for a lifetime of Brahma, which is extremely long according to the calculation of human beings. After that when it is time for universal devastation, the jiva leaves the Brahma body and goes back to Vishu. Some jivas, not all, become attached to the position of Brahma. Some fortunate jivas go back to Vaikuntha. But those who get attached to the position of Brahma, come back to Brahmaloka. The second instance is the "real falldown" of the jiva, when he falls down due to material attachment.

 

Jivas who come for the second time, develop further attachment to the material world. On developing physical desire, they fall further down to lower planetary systems like earth. Thus starts the transmigration of the spirit soul through 84 lakhs of species, through birth and death in the cycle of life. Here jivas suffer and enjoy their karma. Some jivas on acquiring enough good karma go to higer planets of sense gratification like the planet of Moon and other heavenly planets. In the heavenly planets, jivas are highly conscious and knowledgeable. They know that they are fallen, they know that Krishna is the Lord and Master, they know that they are conditioned souls, who should ideally go back to Vaikuntha. However, the heavenly planets are places full of sense gratification in all possible forms - women, wine, music, dance, material opulence etc etc. In the heavenly planets, there is provision for jivas to satisfy their physical desires in a much better way than earth. Thus jivas, getting attached to lust, remain bound to this material world. When their good karma is finished these souls come down from the heavenly planets to earth in the form of rain. Thus they become herbs and enter the food chain. It enters the body of human beings in the form of food and later on comes out in the form of a newborn baby. Thus the cycle of birth and death goes on and on....

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Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

Experiencing a Higher Taste

(A Darsana)

June, 1992: Vrndavana, India

[Question:] Since we spirit souls haven't fallen from Krsna's pastimes in Goloka Vrndavana, why do the scriptures say we ‘revive' our relationship with Krsna, or that we have ‘forgotten' that relationship? Since we have never experienced it, what is the question of ‘reviving' or ‘forgetting' it? *[see endnote 1]

[srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] We can understand by the following verse:

krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 20.117)

["Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy maya gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence."]

The answer has been given in the word anadi. Anadi means ‘no adi', or ‘no beginning'. The conditioned jiva has never met Krsna.

[Question:] Why is the word ‘forgotten' used so often?

[srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] There is no other word. This word and other words like it have been used for beginners, for those who have no understanding of spiritual consciousness (paramartha).

Someone may say, "The sun is shining on the branches of this tree." Why has this been said? If the sun was actually on the branch, the tree would turn to ashes in less than a moment.

It is the same situation for verses that use words like ‘forget' and ‘revive'. It is certain that if one is able to see Krsna, he will never fall in the trap of maya. It would not be possible for him to fall. If a true sadhaka does not fall in the trap of maya, then what to speak of a siddha - a perfect, liberated soul who is always tasting Sri Krsna's personal service?

 

There is no illusory maya in Goloka Vrndavana. If a jiva is there, where there is no illusory maya, how will that jiva forget Krsna? Bhagavad-gita states:

visaya vinivartante

niraharasya dehinah

rasa-varjam raso 'py asya

param drstva nivartate

(Bhagavad-gita 2.59)

["The embodied soul may be artificially restricted from sense enjoyment by withdrawing the senses from their objects, but his taste for sense objects remains. However, one who experiences a higher taste is fixed in consciousness. A devotee of the Lord automatically refrains because of superior taste."]

If one sees a beautiful object, but then he sees something he considers more beautiful, he will be attracted to that more beautiful thing. If there is a taste for certain objects, but then a higher taste comes, that lower taste will automatically disappear. Pure Gaudiya Vaisnavas, those who follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, have that higher taste. Therefore they do not require to labor in order to control the mind - not even slightly. Rather, they easily control it by always engaging it in hearing hari-katha, chanting, and remembering Sri Krsna.

Rasa-varjam raso 'py asya, param drstva nivartate. That spiritual rasa (the mellow taste in one's relationship with Krsna) is more tasteful than this worldly rasa (the taste in any mundane relationship). The material mind is made of matter, so it always engages in worldly rasa. However, if it experiences a more beautiful taste - Sri Krsna - then it will have no time to come here to this world.

Thus, even without the devotee's conscious desire to control the mind, it will be automatically controlled by giving it more interesting objects and topics of thought. The material world is somewhat beautiful, but Lord Krsna and the gopis are more beautiful, and Goloka Vrndavana is also more beautiful.

In this world there are so many rasas, but they are like poison. At the time of tasting them, they seem sweet, but the fruit is the opposite. When men and women mix together, their relationship seems sweet at the beginning but then it turns sour. A mango is very tasteful, but if I eat more than I can digest, that mango will act like poison. I like ghee, but if I take more ghee than I can digest, it acts like poison. Everything in this world is like this.

So if one can engage his mind always, in all ways, in Krsna, that mind will automatically be controlled.

[*ENDNOTE 1:

Devotee (1): ...if we've never been with Krsna, if we've never been in Krsnaloka, then how is it that we start remembering His pastimes and His form?

Prabhupada: You remember Krsna's pastimes by hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam. You can hear Krsna's pastimes. That you can remember.

Devotee (1): But how can we remember if we've never known them before?

Prabhupada: How you can remember?

Devotee (1): If we haven't known it.

Prabhupada: You can know it by hearing from Srimad-Bhagavatam. Why we are citing so many scriptures, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita? Just to remember.]

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So his view is different than Srila Prabhupada's. No problem for me. I feel no need to 'harmonize' these two contradictory viewpoints. Just take your choice. I will go with Prabhupada.

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I think Santa Rasa with Visnu or Narayana forms is different than Santa Rasa with Krsna in Goloka.

 

I don't know why, have no evidence.

 

I know that perfection of regulative principles can only get someone to service colored with friendship with Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha, I think this has something to do with my intuition.

 

I now tend to agree with Sonic that once attaining Goloka proper, in any rasa, that Sri Krsna's protection against Maha Maya's illusory power is full and irrevocably extended.

 

So I wonder why Nitya-Mukta-parishad Sakhis are still considered Jiva tattva. Why would they not be classified as embodiments of Cit Sakti at that point. It has nothing to do with being able to travel back and forth through the Viraja between the material and spiritual worlds, because all Krsna's plenary expansions can do that. Hmmm.

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I think Santa Rasa with Visnu or Narayana forms is different than Santa Rasa with Krsna in Goloka.

 

I don't know why, have no evidence.

 

 

Santa-Rasa in Vraja

 

Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

 

Q. In your Sanga "The Perfect Commentary on Vedanta-sutra," you touched

on the issue of apparently contradictory statements from Gaudiya

acaryas regarding the existence of santa rasa in Krsna's Vraja-lila. In

some circles this is quite a controversial subject, so can you address

this further?

 

A. Sri Krsna is known as Rasaraja. This name implies that he tastes all

rasas, and it refers to him in his Vraja-lila. From this it should be

clear that he does taste santa-rasa in Vraja. This is also confirmed in

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 4.3.85. There Sri Rupa writes that Krsna tasted

santa-rasa along with all other expressions of sacred aesthetic rapture

while lifting Govardhana Hill. In this example Sri Krsna tastes

santa-rasa from the vantage point of the shelter (asraya alambana) of

santa-rasa. Later in Mathura he tasted santa-rasa from the vantage

point of the object (visaya alambana) of love when he was wrestling in

Kamsa's arena (SB 10.43.17). Therein it is clearly stated that the

sages present experienced santa-rasa in relation to Sri Krsna. Such

sages may very well include persons like Durvasa, who also resides in

Vraja proper. So santa-rasa is expressed in his Vraja-lila within

Mathura mandala.

 

At the same time, Krsna's Vraja-lila is primarily characterized by love

that is devoid of reverence, and thus it is often said to begin with

sakhya-rasa. Brahmaji described all of Vrndavana as being permeated by

sakhya-rasa when he told Sri Krsna, aho bhagyam, aho bhagyam nanda gopa

vrajaukasam yan mitram paramanandam purna brahma sanatanam: "Oh, how

fortunate, Oh, how fortunate, are the Vrajavasis of Nanda gopa, for the

supreme bliss and complete, eternal Brahman is their friend." Thus

everything and everyone in Vraja is touched by friendship. Everything

and everyone is also touched by the influence of romantic love that

Krsna's Vraja-lila is centered on.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura acknowledges that santa-rati is present to some

extent in the Vraja-lila when he writes in Jaiva Dharma, "At first I

thought that there was no santa-rati in the devotees of Vraja, but now

I see that it is present in them to a limited extent. " In the same

book, however, he also writes, "Santa-rasa is absent in Vraja." Perhaps

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura sought to clarify Bhaktivinoda

Thakura's statements when in his commentaries to Upadesamrta and

Caitanya-caritamrta he attributed santa-rati to the nonhuman species

and apparently inanimate objects of Vraja, such as cows, rivers, hills,

and Krsna's flute. However, Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has

attributed sahkya-rasa to the hills of Vraja and vatsalya-rati to Sri

Krsna's cows. So there are different opinions among acaryas, and human

reasoning renders any of these opinions problematic.

 

For example, while there is reason to believe that Vraja's cows are in

vatsalya-rasa, their relationship with Sri Krsna is also one of being

protected by Gopala. Anyone who raises cows knows that they are as much

children in need of protection and constant care as they are mothers,

and at least in Dvaraka, Krsna's children are considered to be in

dasya-rasa. Krsna's cows are also his istadevata and thus worshipable

by him. Furthermore, why do we find that Radha and Govinda are not

inhibited in front of Vraja's bovines as they are before human elders

relishing vatsalya-rati? After all, vatsayla and madhurya-rasa are not

compatible. Neither are santa and madhurya-rasas compatible for that

matter. Mahadeva and Brahma are said to have taken birth in Varsana and

Nandagrama as hills; are they in sakhya-rasa? Sakhya-rasa is exchanged

between equals. The gopis attribute a male gender to Krsna's flute at

one time and a female gender at another time. Is it male, female,

neither of these, or both? Sometimes the creepers of Vraja are thought

to be tasting madhurya-rati, but what is the nature of this

madhurya-rati and how can it compare to that of the gopis themselves?

 

Great devotees view the world through the lens of their bhava, and this

may afford them different angles of vision at different times.

Furthermore, some of Sri Krsna's devotees experience the suddha-rati

known as svaccha (transparent), in which they taste the rati of those

with whom they associate, moving between santa, dasya, sakhya, and

madhurya. Therefore, on issues that lie beyond our present realization,

it is best to respect the opinions of great souls, even when we cannot

fully understand them.

 

Questions or comments may be submitted at the Q&A Forum:

http://www.swami.org/sanga/ or email sangaeditor (AT) swami (DOT) org.

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So his view is different than Srila Prabhupada's. No problem for me. I feel no need to 'harmonize' these two contradictory viewpoints. Just take your choice. I will go with Prabhupada.

 

Devotee (1): ...if we've never been with Krsna, if we've never been in Krsnaloka, then how is it that we start remembering His pastimes and His form?

Prabhupada: You remember Krsna's pastimes by hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam. You can hear Krsna's pastimes. That you can remember.

Devotee (1): But how can we remember if we've never known them before?

Prabhupada: How you can remember?

Devotee (1): If we haven't known it.

Prabhupada: You can know it by hearing from Srimad-Bhagavatam. Why we are citing so many scriptures, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita? Just to remember.]

Then why didn't Prabhupada 'correct' the devotee?

 

I know that you think Shakti-fan and Beggar are the same person:

250px-Heckle_and_Jeckle.png

 

Beggar and Shakti-fan. (notice the effulgence?)

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