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Reviving the Soma ritual

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Soma Juice

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There are relative gradations of enlightenment. One of the first stages of enlightenment is the realization of our misidentifying with matter. Another being that the universe is much greater than one's self in that one's self needs to act harmoniously with creation. This is a universally shared concept among all spiritualist. As I've said before, there are things conducive to that understanding. Fasting, Dancing, Prayer, and Kirtan are conducive to Vaishnavas and Ganja, Som, Datura, Peyote, Mutilations, Fasting, are conducive to other branches of spirituality.

 

I'd "bet" that at least 90% of Western Vaishnavas have expiremented at some point with intoxication and have admitted some realizations from it. Can we say that these realizations are bad?

 

Is there such a thing as a plant that Krsna made, which can bestow enlightenment? Can that be His prerogative? It is action in enlightenment which we are striving for. Simply being enlightened is insufficient.

 

The question is, "Can intoxication bring you to perfection"?

 

 

I have taken many many LSD trips and had spiritual experiences while on them. But it wasn't the LSD that gave the spiritual experiences it was Krishna. I have also had some rather scary trips on LSD.

 

 

It seems to me to be rather regressive for someone who has come to the level of chanting Hare Krishna with a Vaisnava viewpoint to refer to drug taking as spiritual. Like shamanism. No doubt they have other worldly experiences but those experiences are just other MATERIAL worldly experiences. Now if the Lord in the heart chooses to reveal a little something of His presence while that perso is on peyote mushrooms LSD etc. then fine but let's give the credit to the Lord where it belongs.

 

 

And the Hare Krishna mantra is enough to reveal all matters spiritual.

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Yes, but perhaps you are side-stepping the issue. Can Krsna create a plant which can offer a certain degree of enlightenment? Can there also be other methods of becoming enlightened to the same degree? I have continued throughout my posting on this thread that Vaishnavas don't have a use for outside stimulation. Others have confirmed that there are shaman rituals of spirituality which don't involve hallucinogenics. I have also said that, while hallucinogens may offer some level of enlightenment, we are still after perfection. The chanting of Hari Nama becomes synonymous with humility. One who is humble sees their surroundings as their Guru, like the Avadhoot and the 24 Gurus in the Bhagavatam. They acknowledge their progressive development and respect the assistants in each stage of existence.

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Yes I understand and agree with what you say. I came to a point where simple pot would sometimes give me spontaneous OBEs. That is how I learned I was not the body. Even that was Krishna's doing.

 

However it wasn't until I bumped into a kirtan party that it came into focus that not only was I not the body but I was more than the subtle astral body also as eternal spiritual soul.

 

I guess my viewpoint on this is consistent with my seemingly contradictory of being holding very fundemental views alongside viewpoints that true fundementalists see as heretical.

 

See I am convinced that a shaman who uses peyote or refrains from drug induced trance altogether would better advised by to chant the names of God as their primary focus....even on drugs if they wish. Chanting the names of God are the most appropriate in every situation. Atheists should be induced to chant as in "chanting brings peace of mind" or even chant for stress reduction etc. Mayavadis should be induced to chant. There is a verse in the SB that states this very directly but I forgot where it is.

 

Now I know the conversation here is amongst devotees and I appreciate the liberal nature of it. I am just trying to inject that chanting is superior and independent as there are more people reading here than posting.

 

I am also fond of the 11th canto for the same reason you are.

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I dont see why chanting of should be better of other forms of spiritual practice, some work for some poeple and other work for other poeple, thats basicly my point.

 

 

This shows me that you don't understand what is spiritual and what is material.

 

 

Show me one person that has become self realized through the taking of drugs.

 

 

Somehow I thought you indicated you were a Srila Prabhupada initiate. I must have miss understood.

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Yes it is perfection (love of God).

 

I have been contemplating this thread and there are some things I wish to express.

 

Firstly, Soma Juice has expressed his present interests and understandings of spiritual life. I am of the opinion that another's spiritual understanding should be nurtured. Infact shamanism is the reality that a spirit can move through various levels of being. Honoring Soma Juice and his choice is giving him room to move through those various levels, on the journey.

 

That space has been granted each of us.

 

Love of God is such a high ideal, way up there in perfection. Until that time I now choose to allow space for others because I need space to travel too (within the realms).

 

My mothers family is originally from Chile, and there is some specific generic insights that point to our past. As people from the forest. The wonderful thing about Shamanism is that it holds no dogma. And it moves in harmony with nature.

 

To place shamanism in a category of some primitive thinking is a persuasion of the past. Modern thinkers can now see the great treasures held within the forest traditions.

 

Now if we come to theology, doctrine and dogma - then one may suggest that the forest dwellers (aboriginals) worship in the mode of ignorance (spirits). The same old same old, polemics have been long held in this forum even within the vedic tradition itself. ie shiva durga krsna threads.

 

For these reasons I can no longer hold to these narrow views. I see very little use of such thinking anymore.

 

Going on two years ago I had the good fortune of associating with a very special person. A member of a Brazillian Ayahuasca Church. I learned, by her good example, that Ayahuasca and other substances do not deserve the label 'illicit drugs'. Only our perverted western culture of gratification has made the sacred plant an object of lust and desire. Addiction and abuse.

 

It is here, if only for one reason, that shamanism has something to teach us. Respect. Respect for nature and the sacred. Respect for sacred medicine that Great Spirit has given. This knowledge can be of great benefit for us in the west...drugs will not go away. Maybe a new soma (whatever that may be) is in call! As I have suggested, deep states of non-ordinary consciousness are deeply healing and transformative...there are numerous non-drug practices to enter these trances..

 

The western religious mind and to some extent various forms of hinduism have seen this earth as a ghastly prison...with need to get out of the mess. Whereas the forrest dweller considered the land to be sacred. The aboriginal holds the land as the sacred place.

 

With a wide vision of sacredness the shaman offers healing to those whose energy carries foreign matter. Once that energy is cleansed the individual is healed. The sacred plants have been used to give deepr insight for healing purpose.

 

Much different than drugged out youth in the streets of suburbia, without any appeal for the song-bird!

 

After reading so many ideologies and divisive arguments at Audarya, I have began to question where is the harmony? I have decided now, that harmony is not found in dogma or shadow (love of God). And holding contempt toward others is a sign of that shadow. That supreme position is rejected...

 

I choose now to accept the forest-dwellers, my ancestors. For healing of sacred earth - mother.

 

Anything that does not promote healing needs to be left behind...even if that means accepting earth as sacred, rather than aiming for some other place (place in the sky) that is far from the heart.

 

I see this earth and consciousness that pervades it, as the greatest of all treasures for someone fallen like myself. A place to apply, learn, change, grow, utilize, feel gratitude for.... Goloka is within the heart, not out there somewhere. Whole and integrated. Full of longing.

 

Follow your heart Soma Juice. It will guide you well. Respect for the sacred medicine is something addicts and users never understood. Ironically Ibogaine may be the cure for such a serious illness. The plant will help one see. This is the meaning of Santo Daime. Daime means 'give me'. The sick can be given insight...an overview from the giver that guides the seeker upon the way of good intent... and eventually full empowerment to choose life. All medicine is within the sacred forest.

 

 

...Can Krsna create a plant which can offer a certain degree of enlightenment? Can there also be other methods of becoming enlightened to the same degree? I have continued throughout my posting on this thread that Vaishnavas don't have a use for outside stimulation. Others have confirmed that there are shaman rituals of spirituality which don't involve hallucinogenics. I have also said that, while hallucinogens may offer some level of enlightenment, we are still after perfection. The chanting of Hari Nama becomes synonymous with humility. One who is humble sees their surroundings as their Guru, like the Avadhoot and the 24 Gurus in the Bhagavatam. They acknowledge their progressive development and respect the assistants in each stage of existence. by narasingha

Nice post. Good mood for bhajan.

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Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (author of Phenomenon of Man) and jesuit priest spent six years in exile in China when his home country was beseiged by Nazi Germany.

 

Teilhard as early as the 1930's saw a great hope for the future. He could perceive that east and west would converge. Each complimenting each other.

 

Srila Prabhupada held the same vision, and was one of several pioneers who worked tirelessly bringing that vision of harmony into fruition. The fruit of these great pioneers is seen in today's modern world. A divergent world has hope, if it can converge toward a single destiny. East and west as brothers keepers.

 

Right up until the 80's and 90's shamanic indigenous culture was perceived as primitive by the western scientific mind. A sceintific culture stemming from the early enlightenment of middle ages Europe.

 

Today the world has moved forward into the 21st century. Knowledge is accessible, and learning has been made easier. The depths of ancient cultures are within the finger tips and key boards of the seekers for truth. Man as late as the 1930's or 40's did not have that luxury. We do!

 

I perceive in the future east and west will converge with shamanic culture. The wise are now ready to learn from the meek... And in due course man will have integrated enough to converge in common unity of purpose. The purpose of the Whole. While retaining the unique gift of individuality. With deep respect for earth, each other, and love of God!

 

Rather than a sectarian affair and divided nations.

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The mystery of the soma plant is a subject that intrigues me much. The exact identifaction has never been found, but i think it is safe to say that it had great spiritual value in its intoxicating effect.

But the plant symbiosis has been long lost and the soma rituals are gone.

This kind of saddens me because i belive we can learn alot from these sacred plants if restore the link between us and them, a link that has brought great spirituality to mankind.

The interesting is that cermonies with religious use of hallucinogenic plants is seen all over the world.

South America have widespread use of many diffrent plants, north american indians uses the mescaline containing cacti peyote, traces of plant use have been found allmost all over the world but the tradition is sadly weakened alot worldwide by the invasion of western culture and what that brings with it.

We can conclude that plants have been used for a tool to communicate with the spirit world/higher levels of counciousness with great succes. And many lines can be drawn between the level of counciousness the shamans who ingest these reach and the levels great saints and enlightned masters have reached, the shamans of the amazon rainforest is is thought by the old shamans knowledge of the plants and the spirits of the forest, they shamans have powers like telepathy and healing powers as it is also seen among our hindu saints.

 

The link below contains the story of a psylocibin mushrooms cermony with the great shaman Maria Sabina.

www csp org/nicholas/A27.html

And it seems like the early vedic religion also thought these types of plants might have played an important role in shaping the vedic tradition, but due to unkown factors and the strict secrecy the soma plant was treatet with the knowledge is lost in india.

 

But do you accept plant use a way to evovle spiritualy? do you think that intoxication is a valid form of worship?

 

This zen preist have some interesting stuff to say on the subject:

www maps org/news-letter/v11n2/11243pal.html

 

Prabhupada, Tokyo, January 28, 1975: "They are living for ten thousand years, and it is very cold there. Therefore they drink soma-rasa."

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This shows me that you don't understand what is spiritual and what is material.

 

 

Show me one person that has become self realized through the taking of drugs.

 

 

Somehow I thought you indicated you were a Srila Prabhupada initiate. I must have miss understood.

How does i not understand what is spiritual and what is material i cant really say anything to it as you dont adress anything?

 

Did the soma drinkers not understand what was spiritual and material even though they worshipped a sacred medicine (or drug as you would call it)

 

I also think the symbiosis of man and nature that the shamanistic traditions around almost all of the world still practice it is not as sophisticatet as the vedic tradition in terms of how deep it has gone into counciousness yes, but still higly spiritual but on another way that the vedic tradition.

 

 

Prabhupada, Tokyo, January 28, 1975: "They are living for ten thousand years, and it is very cold there. Therefore they drink soma-rasa."

 

i dont quite understand what Prabhupada said here? what does he mean by they are living for ten thousand years?

 

 

Follow your heart Soma Juice. It will guide you well. Respect for the sacred medicine is something addicts and users never understood. Ironically Ibogaine may be the cure for such a serious illness. The plant will help one see. This is the meaning of Santo Daime. Daime means 'give me'. The sick can be given insight...an overview from the giver that guides the seeker upon the way of good intent... and eventually full empowerment to choose life. All medicine is within the sacred forest.

 

I thank you for your advice and expressing such clear arguments on the matter. I know that i personaly got plantet the seed of spirituality by sacreds plants.

When i look at my self and see what realisations i have had after taking these medicines (ayahuasca, mescaline and mushrooms)

I went from not really caring about nature it was just something that was there like most other stuff in life just is there, being a atheist, thought science could explain everything etc just to name a few things!

All of these have changed completly! thanks to what these medicines startet in my mind it was like the push my mind needed.

Thats why i love them and call them sacred

I also see them important to the overall counciousness of the world. If i could be helped towards a spiritual life i think many poeple could by a eye opener experience to many poeple.

The concepts of rebirth and how "chanting names"/"sitting still long time a row" is very hard to swallow for the majority of poeple and just stick with the material life they could need a eye opener before melting together with matierial life it is alot easier to comprehend any form of spiritual thought if you just once have experienced the your very core scientific and materialistic thoughts shakened.

Just like the eleusinian mysteries of ancient greece was meant to elevate all sorts of poeple into the divine. We could do the same thing, to open poeple up to the beauty of life!

It would be to benefit ISCKON and every hindu or buddhist group around the world if the old cermonies of sacred plants was restored.

I my self take off to india and sees were fate carries me, when i am done with the obligations i have now.

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How does i not understand what is spiritual and what is material i cant really say anything to it as you dont adress anything?

 

We are using the term spiritual in different ways. I have learned from Prabhupada's books that for a path to be spiritual it must be free from karmic reaction either good or bad. That is to say it must be directly connected to God or a bone fide practice that leads to a direct experience of God. Even the later is not truly spiritual until God is connected.

All these attempts at trying to expand the consciousness through drugs have material effects. For instance shamanism. A practioner may have very valid experiences with other worldly beings but those other worldly beings are living in other material dimensions. Nothing spiritual there.

At best we can say any seeking for the truth may be on the path to spiritual life but it is not there yet.

The point is the chanting of Hare Krishna or any name of God can be done by anyone even a Soma drinker and that chanting will bring spiritual results immediately.

So I would not say to a soma drinker or shaman of some kind to stop what they are doing but I would say add the chanting of God's names to what they are doing to bring in some genuine spiritual energy.

You are obviously a very intelligent person and I would hat to see you waste you valuable time in human form chasing some magic drug (or medicinal herb) rather then take to the chanting of the Lord's names.

But nor any I saying you should not try to locate this Soma but please chant Hare Krishna while you look for it.

 

 

 

 

Did the soma drinkers not understand what was spiritual and materialeven though they worshipped a sacred medicine (or drug as you wouldcall it)

 

I have no idea.

I also think the symbiosis of man and nature that the shamanistictraditions around almost all of the world still practice it is not assophisticatet as the vedic tradition in terms of how deep it has goneinto counciousness yes, but still higly spiritual but on another waythat the vedic tradition.

 

Nothing that doesn't come with progressive God consciousness derive from chanting God's name. The problem with physchedlic substances is that they take a toll on our brains neurotransmitters and their recepter sites.

I myself had valuable experiences on LSD , mushrooms etc. but I also suffered much cognitive set back that hurt me more in the long run.

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The problem with physchedlic substances is that they take a toll on our brains neurotransmitters and their recepter sites. by theist

If you abuse something ofcourse there will be damage to the body...same as if you eat ghee fried pakoras (prasadam) everyday by the dozen;).

 

Ayahuasca brew which contains various alkaloids and dmt is quite unique, in that extensive tests have been performed on it (this is not the case with some other drugs). An indepth study in Brazil was performed on a Santo Daime Church in Brazil by professionals.

 

The tests found positive results. No negative brain function...and even elevation or no depressant moods were found. Instead a general well being. What to say of the over-all psychological improvments as Soma Juice has pointed out. This substance has blessed thousands, even children.

 

Ayayhuasca was also found to be non-addictive.

 

Now, the shaman tradition is thousands of years old, and these plants have been used within the cultures, studied by the cultures, and methodically ingested by the cultures. This is enough proof that there is no demon side effects. Infact the heritage of shamanism is vast, and a real treasure for humanity.

 

The tradition has always warned that the plants should not be abused. As the 'plants are conscious spirit soul' that interact. If the plant is abused madness will ensue. Just like the degrading effects of marijuana upon the addict. Years ago I met one man in my travels, he had abused the Ayahuasca brew while in Brazil. He was mad. He did not listen to the teachers. Maybe he needed that madness, and after some years realized his mistakes.

 

Ayahuasca contains DMT, which is also within the human body. The pineal gland activates large doses at death or other major stressful times. NDE's, OBE's, Visions etc may all be related to DMT release.

 

The beneficial use of DMT is that it allows us to die beore dying. To really see the mind...and to be able to walk through the valley of death. Rather than being led by false imagery and hellish visions of the unconscious.

 

Modern psychiatry is in the process of studying and desiging new psychotropic medications from DMT etc. A new drug that will open the suffering patient toward healing, rather than tranquilize and shut down.

 

We as a world don't necessarily need a new drug (soma)...we need a new ritual! One that makes life sacred. Before earth perishes...by the degradation of our minds. Presently modern man is disconnected from himself and the environment...

 

 

I myself had valuable experiences on LSD , mushrooms etc. but I also suffered much cognitive set back that hurt me more in the long run. by theist

Because you abused drugs to a max threshold. Now your bad experience is projected upon something very different. Abuse is far different than spiritual healing work...but at least you learned the karma and gained insight into your drives and material impulses.

 

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So I would not say to a soma drinker or shaman of some kind to stop what they are doing but I would say add the chanting of God's names to what they are doing to bring in some genuine spiritual energy.

But they allready chant gods names but in their own tounge not in sanskrit. I think their songs about god will work the same way for them as Hare Krishna for us. And dont you think that a person can have valid connection to god without chanting Hare Krishna but meditates or some other form of practice maybe soma or mushrooms? as long he have god in his heart what ever he call god?

You are obviously a very intelligent person and I would hat to see you waste you valuable time in human form chasing some magic drug (or medicinal herb) rather then take to the chanting of the Lord's names.

dont worry hehe im not planning on going to india to take up some sort of spiritual path not finding something through mushrooms if i wantet that i was going to live in the jungle hehe.

 

But nor any I saying you should not try to locate this Soma but please chant Hare Krishna while you look for it.

hehe i was not planning for looking after it :D would maybe have been a bit optimistic! im going to India because i want to experience to learn to practise some varity of hinduism and experience the great nature. But i will definitly chant Hare Krishna or singing praises to the lord while walking in the Himalayas haha :)

I myself had valuable experiences on LSD , mushrooms etc. but I also suffered much cognitive set back that hurt me more in the long run.

cognitive set back from psychedelics? i only had good effects from it but i only take a trip in like once in 3 month.

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I found from my own personal experience, difference between intense yoga practice with regulation, and ingestion of psychotropics.

 

Here is some observations:

 

Over the last decade I have practiced Naam Yoga, more deeply for the last six years. The unfoldment in the heart has been gradual, subtle, and profound. Even entering different states of consciousness naturally. A wonderful experience.

 

I am of the opinion that this gradual unfoldment is natural and very conducive for the human organism.

 

The plant ingestion for me was very different. Rapid profound insights over several hours. In a way more insights than years of yoga practice. But, different, not greater. This rapid unfoldment needs processing, and that is where the real work begins...after the experience. Then we enter a more natural flow like the yoga and its gradual awakening as we process day to day our new self insights.

 

I appreciate Theists and Amlesh's views, because yoga is so natural! Not without danger though, as awakening for certain individual can be a challenging process with various spiritual emergence crisis. As they say, 'the narrow path is not easy'.

 

If western man pursues the shamanic path, it must understand what it is doing. Therefore the need of a guide, and a well founded ritual.

 

What ritual can man as a collective embrace in this global village? That is yet to be seen.

 

Divided sectarian religion may one day be a thing of the past. As man yearns for unity, he may find.

 

Thank you for opening this thread Soma, this subject is very interesting and worthy of dialogue.

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The beneficial use of DMT is that it allows us to die beore dying.

 

See here is one major fallacy. To die before dying means to give up the ahankara (dying to false identities).

 

Take what you like. That is your business. But trying to intertwine physchedelic compounds into Krishna consciousness is a mistake. Just ask Jayathira. He lost his head over it all.

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I am not suggesting a Krsna conscious psychedelic revolution:rolleyes:.

 

Some days Theist talking with you I feel like a movie screen, that you can project your ideas upon. With a narrow lense.

 

 

See here is one major fallacy. To die before dying means to give up the ahankara (dying to false identities).

Please explain where the fallacy lies? And how you see Shamanic culture as existing in false identity?

 

Lets leave Jayatirtha and other 60's freaks out of an intelligent conversation:pray:. Using such examples and projecting those things is a weak ploy in debate (conversation).

 

The two traditions are different, and may not be mixed. But as seekers of truth surely we can harmonize the world we see.

 

I don't see a bright future for the world with narrow thinkers seeking position (saying how things are)...

 

*** there is many parallels between non-ordinary states and trances of various traditions. That is what I am suggesting is worthy of further investigation. If we have had minimal realization of subtle realities...then what authority do we hold on the subject.

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what are those false identities? generated from the subtle body in connection with gross body...

 

 

ahankara predates the subtle bodies formation. It is the energy that makes one identify with the subtle and gross bodies and there is absolutely no freedom that force except by the grace of the Lord.

 

 

And by the way I am not suggesting a Krsna conscious psychedelic revolution.

 

Some days Theist talking with you I feel like a movie screen, that you can project your ideas upon. With a narrow lense.

 

 

That is because I never enter deeply into your speculations.Nothing personal. And I don't need to project anything onto you as Audarya has provided us all with blank screens to post upon.

 

 

Take my posts on this thread and show me where I have contradicted Srila Prabhupada or any bone fide Vaisnava acarya. Which one of them would entertain and recommend a little "mature" drug taking to enhance your spiritual life?

 

 

Show an example and I will apologize for challenging your ideas. But if you can't then I feel rather safe.

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The Gaudiya tradition recommends no intoxication. The reasons are evident, and the bhajan is the proof.

 

But why degrade another culture as primitive to prove the validity of our own belief? That is what turns me off lately Theist. Using a tradition as a viewpoint to look down...that is really immature spirituality IMO. Very narrow, and far from the absolute truth.

 

I dont see the Vedic culture as 'the greatest of the great' and most advanced human expression any more.. it is not what I want in my consciousness and expression of bhakti. Those divisions are something that are of this world and not spirit.

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Please explain where the fallacy lies? And how you see Shamanic culture as existing in false identity?

 

Thanks for the softball questions.

 

Ahankara cannot be overcome by drugs or herbs etc. It cannot be overcome even by speculative philosophy. It is overcome only by the grace of Krishna because only Krishna awards liberation.

 

The shaman is identifying himself as a shaman which is ahakara in action. If he wasn't then he would be either as Brahman realized soul or a self realized devotee engaged in his sanatan dharma serving Krishna.

 

I am through with this thread. No offense but I know you could go all night.and I don't want to.:)

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