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Prabhupada - "We dream this body and so many relationships with other things".

 

 

#1 Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita that once going to the spiritual world the person never returns.

#2 Jaya and Vijaya never actually came back to this world, look at their births:

 

Ravana and Kumbakarma (In Rama-lila)

Sikupala and Kamsa (Krishna-lila)

Jagai and Madia (Gauranga-lila!)

 

Can you really say Jaya and Vijaya fell? :idea:

 

Tatasta-shakti (or Brahmajyoti) is identical to Krishna, the Brahmajyoti. And Sridhara Maharaja often mentions this is where we came from, (born from Balarama (Guru), so in that way we were with Krishna onc

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Thoughts about the ontological position of the baddha jiva, even those coming directly from guru, sadhu or sastra are only tools to help the practitioner accept what is favorable and reject what is unfavorable for Krsna bhakti. Other than that they have no use.

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This is the point of difference between Sri Bhagavan's body and the siddha deha/body.

Sri Bhagavan is His body Himself.

We are NOT.

 

 

This is where we disagree. I am my body just like Krishna. I am sat cit ananda vigraha always have been and always will be.

 

I am not a material body even though I most often think I am. That is my confusion, misidentification, ahankara or fall.

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This is where we disagree. I am my body just like Krishna. I am sat cit ananda vigraha always have been and always will be.

 

I am not a material body even though I most often think I am. That is my confusion, misidentification, ahankara or fall.

 

Interesting. God is everywhere (Gods Body), even though He has body.

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If we are NOT a perpetual bodily form then what are we?

 

 

 

The self itself is Brahman:

The Self is Brahman - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5

 

 

 

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is not some place in the creation, it is a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva tattva.

 

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This is the correct understanding of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s teachings.<o:p></o:p>

 

you are wrong

 

 

upajiyā bāḍe latā 'brahmāṇḍa' bhedi' yāya

'virajā', 'brahma-loka bhedi' 'para-vyoma' pāya

 

"As one waters the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed sprouts, and the creeper gradually grows to the point where it penetrates the walls of this universe and goes beyond the Virajā River, lying between the spiritual world and the material world. It attains brahma-loka, the Brahman effulgence, and penetrating through that stratum, it reaches the spiritual sky and the spiritual planet Goloka Vṛndāvana. - Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.153

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Our nitya siddha or svarupa body IS who are eternally even if we forget that ‘eternal bodily self’ and dream we are nitya baddha if we choose’<o:p></o:p>

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It is the nitya baddha dream state, that is the impersonal aspect of the jiva tattva's marginal identity, that can come from a plain sheet of inactive individual consciousness on the atomic ember echelon (that all are collectively the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of Krsna’s creation), ONLY AFTER FIRST experiencing the falling down to material dream bodies or vessels within the material world which is the Maha tattva dream of Maha Vishnu.

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The residents of Vaikuntha never fall under the influence of the material modes of nature, even when they are dreaming

 

 

Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep."

 

Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion)

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This is where we disagree.

 

Seems to me that the disagreement is over the way the words are arranged and the choice of words. The words are not the thoughts but only represent the thoughts and the thoughts are not the experience but merely represent the experience. We cannot think our way back to Godhead.

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RamanaDasi,

Why cannot the brahmajyoti be both a loka or place, and a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva, simultaneously. Maybe how both can be true is acintya or inconceivable? If a jnani was realized could he/her be simultaneously appearing in a material body on Earth and merged with brahman? After all everything exists within consciousness. There are the individual points of consciousness and the Infinite Consciouness. Whether we are correct or not in our original thesis sometimes we either make mistakes or are over-zealous to prove that we are right. One time Srila Sridhar Maharaja was asked about a controversy, "who is right." He then replied, "It doesn't matter who is right but rather who is sincere."

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you are wrong

 

The residents of Vaikuntha never fall under the influence of the material modes of nature, even when they are dreaming

Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep."

 

Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion)

 

I agree, they only think they do

 

The Meaning of "Tatastha s'akti"?

 

BY: GAURAGOPALA DASA

 

 

Jul 12, USA (SUN) —
The Article "
" by Abhay caran dasa and the comments by Radhavallabha dasa, humbly, appear to me as a complete misunderstanding of tatastha s'akti and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

Can someone please tell me the real meaning of the word
tatastha s'akti
and the jiva soul's 'eternal' origin according to the devout teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada?

 

 

This is how I understand his teachings:


  • "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body".

    His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974

 

 

 

This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva. Yes, I think I have understood this at least because Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that idea.

 

 

They have impersonally described tatastha to be our original state that is on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) but their understanding is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada

 

 

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'present' of Goloka.

 

 

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'.

 

 

The eternal present or the forever 'now' is found only in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka now even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

 

 

It is there in Goloka or Krsnaloka our perpetual identity, personality and individuality is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna as our perpetual 'svarupa' body (nitya siddha), even if we sometimes forget that fact and 'dream' or 'think' we are in the material world.

 

 

The paradox here is no one ever really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and entering the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

 

 

The only thing that has changed is one's awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

 

 

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu, then taking on the identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

 

 

On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

 

 

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees - every living entity is represented there by their permanent 'svarupa' body (also known as the Siddha-jiva) who is them without beginning or end.

 

 

The material world, on the other hand, actually has NO 'present' at all; there is only past, future, decay, and impermanence.

 

 

The mahat-tattva is where the living entities can 'sub-consciously' project themselves and experience their own dreamed-up manifestation, created by their own thoughts and dreams.

 

 

This secondary consciousness, which cannot exist or be expressed in bodily form in Goloka, is called the baddha-jiva.

 

 

Entering the material world therefore, is not a change of bodies, but rather a change of consciousness where the baddha-jiva is given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu in the restricted realm of past and future where the repercussion is a universe that is perishable and temporary.

 

 

The 'eternal present' means exactly that, ones 'svarupa' body is always in Goloka even if one is dreaming they are in the mahat-tattva..

 

 

What is nitya baddha BODILESS consciousness? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

 

 

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather, a dormant state of bodiless consciousness the marginal living entities or souls, in the baddha-jiva condition, develop or attain, once they free themselves from the ethereal and biological material bodies, provided by Maha-Vishnu FROM within his mahat-tattva creation.

 

 

However, this place is also just a further dream state separate from the mahat-tattva the marginal living entity enters (as baddha-jiva dream manifestation), and is also a temporary state of consciousness one enters.

 

 

This motionless individual, inactive, dreamless, baddha-jiva consciousness within the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti can also be active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation).

 

 

This nitya-baddha inferior self, or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity, is actually a bodiless condition of the jiva until it is provided bodily form or a vessel for expressing their desires, provided by Maha Vishnu within his dream creation.

 

 

This nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to 'dream' of self importance and indulgence.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:


  • "There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like".

    "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

 

In other words, the marginal living entity's secondary conscious projection is known as the baddha-jiva soul within the maha-tattva.

 

 

The marginal living entity actually has two aspects of consciousness; one is 'eternal form' of sat, cit, ananda, Vigraha or one's perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form (nitya-siddha) that is imperishable and never fades away, due to being eternally established within the 'eternal present' of Goloka, while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming bodiless state (nitya-baddha).

 

 

The living entities, as their nitya-siddha body, are properly situated within the Lord's internal energy as a perpetual bodily servant that is known as one's perpetual 'Svarupa'.

 

 

When the marginal living entity misuses their independence and tries to act as enjoyers or lords, they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but rather, as a secondary dreaming consciousness called nitya-baddha.

 

 

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal.

 

 

The living entities do not only belong to the marginal energy, they ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

 

 

Tatastha simply means the ability to choose the land and the ocean or Goloka and the mahat-tattva. The marginal is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

 

 

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the result of the jiva-tatastha executing its dormant free will to choose between Krsna and their own plans of existence. When the baddha-jiva lower self enters a dormant inactive state of consciousness, they can only enter the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, ONLY after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

 

 

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord's internal energy in our 'svarupa' body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence.

 

 

This means we may choose to try and act as enjoyers or lords of all we purvey that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our 'svarupa' body, and instead try to lord it over Krishna's material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:


  • "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness."


    Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971



    "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".


    Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967



    "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all".


    Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971



    "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".


    Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967



    "You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)".


    Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967



    "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".

    Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

 

 

 

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

 

 

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as one's eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as one's material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones 'svarupa' body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

 

 

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the 'eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality' that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become 'aware' of their full potential 'svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.


  • "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago."

    Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way: "There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained".


  • "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha".


    Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977



    "You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. .


    Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay



    "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi".


    Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban



    "Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna".

    Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

 

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur:


  • "However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas."

    Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:


  • "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si-… That is called svarupa-siddhi.

    Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban


 

 

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Origin of the jiva and the 'eternal present'

Eventually I have began to realize the difference between the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka, that has no past or future and the material creation, that has no ‘present’, only past and future. Many have realized that if Goloka is an eternal imperishable place, then we are there right now and always have been there, we just have to realize and stop 'dreaming' we are in the material creation.

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The following is the final proof, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that all jiva/souls or marginal living entities are originally (Which means eternally when referring to the Kingdom of God), are actually serving Krishna perpetually, as their full devotional bodily form, right at this very moment.

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However, presently, due to the free will and choice all marginal living entities have, some have chosen to forget their real eternal vigraha (form) svarupa (devotional body) that is always present in Krsnaloka, just like one forgets their present biological body while dreaming.

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This means all living entities have an imperishable bodily form called ‘svarupa’ which is the full potential and expression of their character eternal present in Goloka even if they are ‘dreaming or thinking’ they are in the material creation (mahat tattva).

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Many have laughed when told their existence in the material world is just the dream state they have created.

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However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find it is ALL their dream ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

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Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

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Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

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Srila Prabhupada - “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction

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Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being.has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .”

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Srila Prabhupada - “We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one . . . the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity “. Bhagavad-gita, Introduction. .

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Srila Prabhupada - “The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.

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Srila Prabhupada – “In his original state, there is no doubt of enjoyment; therefore, that is his real state.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.21, purport.

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Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

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Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

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Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda Germany, June 22, 1974

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Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album)

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Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

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Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

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Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

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Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes – “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

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Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

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Our original ‘svarupa’ position is eternal situated within the ‘eternal present’ of Goloka therefore; we are all eternally nitya-siddha in the full expression of our marginal identity, which IS our original and eternal position. However, when the living entity ‘dreams’ they are in the material world, as we are doing now, we presently become covered by our mistaken thoughts and non-Krishna conscious desires due to our choice to dream away in the material creation.

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Actually, the Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones beginning with all living entities bodily form devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to the project conditioned thoughts or dreams that become active in the mahat-tattva due to the temporary bodily provisions offered by Maha-Vishnu. Only then, after being frustrated with the mahat-tattva, one can develop an inactive conscious state, or dormant dreamless state in a collective of souls that all manifest the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

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These different aspects of the Brahmajyoti can be achieved or experienced by free will and choice however, ONLY Krsna's abode and the Vaikunthas, that make up 75% of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky, are without end and situated in the personal active 'eternal present' of Krsna's perpetual pastimes.

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The other 25% of the Brahmajyoti is made up of those who have chosen to forgotten their nitya -siddha body in the 'eternal present' and have entered that part of creation known as the perishable mahat-tattva and later on may enter the temporary impersonal Brahman, both in a 'dream consciousness' known as the baddha-jiva. (Conditioned soul)

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This devotional active original fullness of the Brahmajyoti is eternal personal, which means it is made up of ALL living entities that are perpetually represented there in their perpetual nitya-siddha body serving Krsna

<o:p></o:p>

For a living entity, who has transmigrated through the lower species to the human biological body, simply means that the living entity had FIRST chosen to ‘consciously (like in a dream), fall down from Krsnaloka, long, long, long ago, from also the eternal body that is their real perpetual ‘self’ (nitya-siddha) whose only activity there is serving Krsna or God.

<o:p></o:p>

This was achieved by free will and choice; the marginal living entity therefore is able to leave Goloka ‘consciously’ as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness and travel to the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

<o:p></o:p>

The baddha-jiva may then travel further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets, and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some baddha-jivas may also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that is collectively, along with other baddha-jivas who have also chosen the dreamless dream state, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahman effulgence

<o:p></o:p>

The impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti or Brahman IS the nitya-baddha souls in a collective of souls that IS the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

<o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

<o:p></o:p>

Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva after its so called creation from this 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

<o:p></o:p>

They claim the jiva’s originate from the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing. Claiming that within this impersonal Brahmajyoti, their stability is somehow disturbed and progress begins. From no separation, separation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious, it is now capable of free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation in the mahat-tattva or the side of dedication or service to Krsna in Goloka.

<o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that impersonal nonsense idea that the jiva springs into existence from a dormant 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

<o:p></o:p>

They have impersonally described jiva tatastha as manifesting first from a dormant state to become 'tatastha', meaning that now the living entity exists, it now has the ability to choose due to free will and can only then be called tatastha-sakti due to being created, or coming into existence, from the all pervasive impersonal Brahmajyoti.

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I guess no one can get it here. You folks are engaged in round 567,800 of a 1,500,000 round heavyweight "I am right, you are wrong" false ego battle. There's two problems here: 1) Despite what you think there is no possibility of a knock out in this kind of fight. 2) No one who is presently living on Earth will be around when the winner is crowned. Party on, Prabhus. It's your devotional funeral.

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They claim the living entity is born from a plain sheet of consciousness and becomes the jiva- tatastha however, their interpretation of the word ‘tatastha’, that irrationally and incorrectly describes this independent nature of the jiva only to manifests after it’s birth from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is clearly rejected by Srila Prabhupada. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Their idea that the living entity manifests from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and then moves into the position of ‘tatastha sakti’ after it is born from the impersonal Brahmajyoti is nonsense. The fact is we all ‘sub-consciously’ came down from Vaikuntha millions of years ago from where our eternal Svarupa body is perpetually present and NOT the impersonal Brahmajyoti. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

So clearly their idea that our original beginning manifested on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada because factually, there is no beginning or origin (coming into existence) of the living entity. Tatastha is the eternal position of the living entity which simple means the free will to choose Krsna or the mahat-tattva <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'NOW' of Goloka. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are IN OUR FULL MARGINAL POTENTIAL without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless NITYA-SIDDHA SVARUPA body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

This eternal present or the forever 'now' is found ONLY in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka RIGHT NOW even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The Brahmajyoti is full of jiva-souls; sat chit ananda vigraha, the word sarva-gatah means life IS the Brahmajyoti and is everywhere. So, what is the Brahmajyoti? <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The Brahmajyoti or Krsna’s effulgence, IS the entire creation, divided up into three zones of conscious thought, from devotional activity in the Vaikunthas, to conditioned activity in the mahat-tattva, to inactivity in the dormant dreamless state - All are aspects of the Brahmajyoti <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

1.The Vaikunthas and Krsnaloka those are always active in service to Krsna or Vishnu <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

2. The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu that is where the marginal living entity can CHOOSE to go to lead their own way of life without Krsna <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

3. When those who have entered the mahat-tattva become fed up with the temporary frustrating nature of the material world and the vessels or bodies they move around in, they often seek an inactive dormant state of consciousness. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

They only seek out such an end to their existence because they still have no memory or recollection of their eternal body in Krsnaloka. <o:p></o:p>

Therefore, due to this ignorant state the baddha-jiva is in, they choose to learn through the yogic process, to ‘close their consciousness down’ and stop the generation of thought. (Which can be achieved, but is also a temporary dormant 'state of the baddha-jiva's consciousness". <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

This dormant conscious state of the baddha-jiva is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti, which means it is the ‘inactive ‘state of consciousness of the souls that make up and IS the Personal Brahmajyoti – hence its reflection is the impersonal aspect of that same Brahmajyoti. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Our original bodily svarupa form is 'locked sheltered and forever protected' within the realm of the ‘eternal present’, which makes that origin, eternally manifest and always in that state or moment of origin. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

In simply terms, we are always in Vaikuntha, right now we are there, but our dream of the material world is so powerful, we cannot see the TRUTH. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

But I suppose it is not necessary to understand. The so-called 'origin of the jiva', is not easy to realize. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Doesn’t be sentimental and think 'O he is Indian Guru, so he knows truth' the fact is he does not Know otherwise he wouldn’t beat around the bush with nonsense word jugglery and out rightly say the truth which is – <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

‘We are all in Goloka right now but are dreaming we are in the material world’ <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43 - <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

“Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord”. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm were/are originally (without a beginning point) created as a person with full bodily features. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanantly, without beginning or end, secure in that realm of origin. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’ <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Within that unending world, all living entities are perpetually existing in a perpetual state of ORIGINALITY, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, which are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginingless). <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (At least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm) <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, that seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha) <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

So we should all try to understand our original position that is our eternal identity in Krsnaloka', as Prabhupada would say’. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka. There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', where there is no past or future, these things will be seen in another way. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

And what is that other way that many say is conceivable to understand? <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in Krsnaloka. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia <o:p></o:p>

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Why cannot the brahmajyoti be both a loka or place, and a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva, simultaneously. Maybe how both can be true is acintya or inconceivable? If a jnani was realized could he/her be simultaneously appearing in a material body on Earth and merged with brahman? After all everything exists within consciousness. There are the individual points of consciousness and the Infinite Consciouness. Whether we are correct or not in our original thesis sometimes we either make mistakes or are over-zealous to prove that we are right. One time Srila Sridhar Maharaja was asked about a controversy, "who is right." He then replied, "It doesn't matter who is right but rather who is sincere." by beggar

Maybe you are close to the mark Beggar, consciousness 'is' like that.

 

Where would the sincere wish to be...that is a question worth considering? Some may wish to be here, some there... I guess it depends where we are at. Where our worship lays...

 

Anyhow, I am off to the underworld to put on face paint, burn some sage, speak to spirits...and hug a tree...cya>>>>>>>>

 

tempo.jpg

 

I was knocked out in round ten...and will now join my ancestors and be faithful to my genes. Earth it is!

 

Disregard all I have said on this subject, I was wrong...knowing now that consciousness is bigger than my logic and the crow.

 

My feet 'are' in two worlds, anyhow. Spirit world and earth. One cannot deny his nature...

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We cannot think our way back to Godhead.

 

 

Are you so sure? They why are we told to always remember Krishna and never forget Krishna?

 

"....think of Me always and become my devotee.In this way you are sure to reach Me."

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Are you so sure? They why are we told to always remember Krishna and never forget Krishna?

 

"....think of Me always and become my devotee.In this way you are sure to reach Me."

Krsna says man-mana bhava mad bhakto. Here thinking means to be conscious of Krsna, hence Krsna Consciousness. But at the same time, He says, become my devotee or bhakta. Bhaktas are conscious of Krsna in a loving mood in one of the five rasas, santa, dasya, vatsalya, sakhya and madhurya as most of us have read. Kamsa was always thinking of Krsna, but he saw Krsna as death personified especially at the sacrificial arena in Mathura. His thinking or consciousness of Krsna was unfavorable. So thinking or consciousness with bhakti or love and affection is what Krsna is asking.

 

Then also when approaching this transcendental knowledge one must prostrate themselves before the guru and inquire in a submissive way. This is the descending process. If in a relatively immature stage we independently try to write our own purport to the sastra it will be a folly.

Another folly is to try to take one aspect of Krsna Consciousness, develop a strong opinion about it and go on a campaign to make everyone see it our way. This can be over guru like some fanatical rtviks and guru followers, GBC followers and even as we have see DVD followers. None of the previous acaryas has ever taken this path so it would not be advised.

I've been down that road before and am trying to swear it off, like an alchoholic trying to swear off drink. It ain't easy to avoid egotism cause the mind is real tricky and always convincing us that we're right. But I have been told that taking up the cause of trnadapi sunicena taror api suhisuna/ amanina manadena kirtiniyah sada hari is a no loss proposition.

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Crow and Tal fruit

 

devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”

 

Note: here is that attachment letter.

 

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

 

"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

 

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic."

 

Apologies to theist for high jacking this thread. Actually, you already answered everything as shown above

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This is where we disagree. I am my body just like Krishna. I am sat cit ananda vigraha always have been and always will be.

 

I am not a material body even though I most often think I am. That is my confusion, misidentification, ahankara or fall.

 

Srila Vedavyasa PROVES and CONCLUDES that Jeevatma is ATOMIC in these 10 sutras.These sutras also reveal that Jeevatma and it's position/form/atomic dimension is ETERNAL.

Based on this revelation we deny the Advaitic claim that the atomic Jeevatma becomes infinite Brahm.

"Utkranty gatyaagatinam" - Vedanta sutra 2.3.19

 

"svatmana ca uttara yoh" - Vedanta sutra 2.3.20

 

"na anuh attah shruteh hritiken na itaradhikarat" - Vedanta sutra 2.3.21.

 

2.3.22

2.3.23

2.3.24

UPTO

 

....2.3.28

 

 

* * *

Srila Vedavyasa further made 3 sutras to clarify that Jeevatma is not the Size of the Human body.

 

"Evan ca aatma akarsyam" - Vedanta sutra 2.2.32

 

 

"Na parirayadapy avirodho vikaradivya" - Vedanta sutra 2.2.33

 

 

"antyavastitesca ubhayanityatvat avisheshah" - Vedanta sutra 2.2.34

 

 

* * *

 

Okay,We already know Jeevatma is NOT Infinite.

 

From the above sutras we also come to the Conclusion that Jeevatma IS ATOMIC,

and NOT the size of the Body.

Also,Sri Vedavyasa clarifies that This jeevatma maintains this form/svarupa before/after liberation.

 

If jeevatma were the size of the body,it wouldn't be possible to pervade an ant's body.

And we can't say that Jeevatma has an eternal form,which MAY BE atomic,for that will be speculation.

 

So,neither does the Jeeva STRETCH into the dimensions of a human form.

NOR is it eternally of the Human form.

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